Going to SGU if interested in Neurology eventually?

[medhearter]

Hey all,

I've gotten into the global scholars program at SGU.. so I'm pretty excited about the UK-1st year, grenada-2nd year.

Question - what would I have to do to make myself competitive for IM--> neurology, coming out of SGU??

like what sort of board scores should i be aiming for? what schools should I try to do my clinicals at? how much will my GPA in med school matter??

Please respond with any advice.

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[ChairmanMao]

Hey all,

I've gotten into the global scholars program at SGU.. so I'm pretty excited about the UK-1st year, grenada-2nd year.

Question - what would I have to do to make myself competitive for IM--> neurology, coming out of SGU??

like what sort of board scores should i be aiming for? what schools should I try to do my clinicals at? how much will my GPA in med school matter??

Please respond with any advice.

First, the most important things for making yourself competitive for any residency would be (1) your USMLE scores and (2) your med school evaluations (hopefully, SGU has an honors system that they give out to the top 10-20% of medical students in their class), followed by (3) letters of recommendations from your preceptors at your clinical rotations, (4) summer research, (5) AOA membership. I've posted a chart of the average USMLE score for medical students who matched into a specialty at an American MD medical school (OSU College of Medicine actually). Please note that this is the average USMLE of students who matched into those specialty for that specific school. Since you're an IMG, you will probably need a higher than average USMLE score. I woudl say that you would probably need to score at least a 220 on both the step I and the step II of the USMLE in order to be competitive for neurology and at least a 230 in order to be competitive for neurosurgery.

USMLE Scores and Specialty Selection​

[OSU COM students with successful matches – 4 year history, 2004-2007]​

*Score used from first attempt at exam. Passing at 182 for these years for both exams.​

Specialty (alphabetical)​

Step 1​

Step 2 CK​

Mean​

Range*​

Mean​

Range*​

Neurology

212​

173-259​

220​

157-268​

Neurological Surgery

230​

201-255​

231​

214-257​

Apart from your board scores, you should strive to stand out in your medical school class - this means getting honors and being in the top 20% of your class (if the schools grades student based on passed on pass/fail, high pass, and honors) and do your electives in neurosurgery. Doing your electives in neurology would allow you to have more contact with the attending neurologists and neurology residents during your clinical rotations. This is important if you want to get more exposure to the field and have them write you a letter of recommendation. Other things that could help would be if you find a summer research project between your first and second year that would allow you to do research in that field and get you a publication in a neurology journal. Being an AOA member also seems to have a favorable impact on your chances of matching into a neurology program.

 

[amakhosidlo]

Neurology

212​

173-259​

220​

157-268​

......don't you need to hit 182 to pass? So...someone from OU FAILED their step 1, and still got a residency. DAAANNGGG.....😕

 

[medhearter]

......don't you need to hit 182 to pass? So...someone from OU FAILED their step 1, and still got a residency. DAAANNGGG.....😕

that person probably wasn't coming from the Caribbean.

Um. Are there any Carib-grads here who successfully matched into Neurology? What were your USMLE scores like? and what sort of other things were you involved with?

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Okay, here are my 2 cents.

Chairman, can you please post a link so we can confirm that data?

First of all, I am going to assume the below passing scores you posted mean that some students who had matched failed on first attempt, and that was their first score. Considering how competitive this year's Match was, and how much more competitive it is going to get, I would NOT use numbers like that to set my score goals if I were you. I would not be suprised if someday soon, anyone who failed the Steps would not succeed in the Match.

Look at the data tables from this year's Match: http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Only nine programs didn't fill!
That includes 47 programs with PGY-1 start, and 87 PGY-2 start. One PGY-1program didn't fill, and 8 PGY-2 programs didn't fill.

A total of 638 AMG applicants, 743 FMG applicants for 581 positions. Those totals are a bit exaggerated because most people apply for PGY-1 and PGY-2 positions. But, yes, neurology is a competitive field. You will need above average scores, research, great LORs, etc. Consider scheduling your rotations in locations where you might be interested in matching.

All of that being said, it is not impossible for you to match in neurology. I know several FMGs, US-IMGs in the neurology world. Study and work hard, start working on your CV now, and you should be fine.

 

[ChairmanMao]

Okay, here are my 2 cents.

Chairman, can you please post a link so we can confirm that data?

First of all, I am going to assume the below passing scores you posted mean that some students who had matched failed on first attempt, and that was their first score. Considering how competitive this year's Match was, and how much more competitive it is going to get, I would NOT use numbers like that to set my score goals if I were you. I would not be suprised if someday soon, anyone who failed the Steps would not succeed in the Match.

Look at the data tables from this year's Match: http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Only nine programs didn't fill!
That includes 47 programs with PGY-1 start, and 87 PGY-2 start. One PGY-1program didn't fill, and 8 PGY-2 programs didn't fill.

A total of 638 AMG applicants, 743 FMG applicants for 581 positions. Those totals are a bit exaggerated because most people apply for PGY-1 and PGY-2 positions. But, yes, neurology is a competitive field. You will need above average scores, research, great LORs, etc. Consider scheduling your rotations in locations where you might be interested in matching.

All of that being said, it is not impossible for you to match in neurology. I know several FMGs, US-IMGs in the neurology world. Study and work hard, start working on your CV now, and you should be fine.

The link is located on OSU's website at http://medicine.osu.edu/studentaffairs/7334.cfm

Disclaimer: these are the average scores of those who matched coming from a US allopathic medical school. As the previous poster pointed out, several failed on the first attempt but eventually matched. You should definitely aim for a higher than average USMLE score since you're an IMG - and definitely don't fail on your first try because that would bury your application.

 

[RussianJoo]

that person probably wasn't coming from the Caribbean.

Um. Are there any Carib-grads here who successfully matched into Neurology? What were your USMLE scores like? and what sort of other things were you involved with?

that person definitely wasn't from a carib school because they were from OSU i.e. Ohio State which is in the USA.

So far Neurology is not considered a competitive residency. however things are getting more competitive every year in every specialty. You should aim for at least the average score for that residency, obviously the higher the better.

 

[RussianJoo]

Hey all,

I've gotten into the global scholars program at SGU.. so I'm pretty excited about the UK-1st year, grenada-2nd year.

Question - what would I have to do to make myself competitive for IM--> neurology, coming out of SGU??

like what sort of board scores should i be aiming for? what schools should I try to do my clinicals at? how much will my GPA in med school matter??

Please respond with any advice.

do you want to do both IM and Neuro? or are you thinking that Neuro is a fellowship? Neuro is it's own residency not a fellowship of IM.

your GPA will not affect you that much. it's all about Step1, clinical year grades, letter of rec and step2 scores.

 

[RussianJoo]

First, the most important things for making yourself competitive for any residency would be (1) your USMLE scores and (2) your med school evaluations (hopefully, SGU has an honors system that they give out to the top 10-20% of medical students in their class), followed by (3) letters of recommendations from your preceptors at your clinical rotations, (4) summer research, (5) AOA membership. I've posted a chart of the average USMLE score for medical students who matched into a specialty at an American MD medical school (OSU College of Medicine actually). Please note that this is the average USMLE of students who matched into those specialty for that specific school. Since you're an IMG, you will probably need a higher than average USMLE score. I woudl say that you would probably need to score at least a 220 on both the step I and the step II of the USMLE in order to be competitive for neurology and at least a 230 in order to be competitive for neurosurgery.

USMLE Scores and Specialty Selection​

[OSU COM students with successful matches – 4 year history, 2004-2007]​

*Score used from first attempt at exam. Passing at 182 for these years for both exams.​

Specialty (alphabetical)​

Step 1​

Step 2 CK​

Mean​

Range*​

Mean​

Range*​

Neurology

212​

173-259​

220​

157-268​

Neurological Surgery

230​

201-255​

231​

214-257​

Apart from your board scores, you should strive to stand out in your medical school class - this means getting honors and being in the top 20% of your class (if the schools grades student based on passed on pass/fail, high pass, and honors) and do your electives in neurosurgery. Doing your electives in neurology would allow you to have more contact with the attending neurologists and neurology residents during your clinical rotations. This is important if you want to get more exposure to the field and have them write you a letter of recommendation. Other things that could help would be if you find a summer research project between your first and second year that would allow you to do research in that field and get you a publication in a neurology journal. Being an AOA member also seems to have a favorable impact on your chances of matching into a neurology program.

as a carib student or grad you can't join the AOA, carib schools have their own honors societies. however it's not that important for residency selection.

also your #2 med school evaluations ( i.e. the class rank) won't come out till the MSPE which comes out on Nov.1st for everyone, and by that time most students already have most if not all their interviews lined up, so class rank can't play a huge role in selecting who they interview and thus for residency selection.

 

[RussianJoo]

Okay, here are my 2 cents.

Chairman, can you please post a link so we can confirm that data?

First of all, I am going to assume the below passing scores you posted mean that some students who had matched failed on first attempt, and that was their first score. Considering how competitive this year's Match was, and how much more competitive it is going to get, I would NOT use numbers like that to set my score goals if I were you. I would not be suprised if someday soon, anyone who failed the Steps would not succeed in the Match.

Look at the data tables from this year's Match: http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Only nine programs didn't fill!
That includes 47 programs with PGY-1 start, and 87 PGY-2 start. One PGY-1program didn't fill, and 8 PGY-2 programs didn't fill.

A total of 638 AMG applicants, 743 FMG applicants for 581 positions. Those totals are a bit exaggerated because most people apply for PGY-1 and PGY-2 positions. But, yes, neurology is a competitive field. You will need above average scores, research, great LORs, etc. Consider scheduling your rotations in locations where you might be interested in matching.

All of that being said, it is not impossible for you to match in neurology. I know several FMGs, US-IMGs in the neurology world. Study and work hard, start working on your CV now, and you should be fine.

it's a pretty safe bet to say that most if not all of those that applied for the PGY1 spots also applied for the PGY2 spots, thus you can easily make the assumption that for the 581 spots total (pgy1 and 2) only about 332 AMG's applied and 419 FMGs, even if all AMGs matched that would leave over 200 spots for FMGs. and that's further demonstrated in the table that shows % filled by AMGs and only 62% of pgy1 and 50% of the pgy2 residencies were filled by AMGs, that means that most if not all AMGs applied to both pgy1 and pgy2 spots and about 38% of pgy1 spots and 50% of pgy2 spots are left for FMGs.

Also the last step1 and 2 data from the 2007 charting outcomes. shows that the average setp1 and 2 scores for FMGs was 220 and 221 respectively. and the average step1 and 2 scores for AMGs was somewhere in the same ball park. 220 is the national average. so to match into neuro you have to be average.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

people say that the match is getting harder and more competitive, i say that's not exactly true. sure there are more applicants but there's still an abundance of spots. the only people that the match is getting a lot more competitive for is the those that are not US-IMGs i.e. real FMGs, but it's always been hard for them to get a residency. In fact the ECFMG put out a newsletter about a week ago stating that this is like the 3rd or 4th year in a row that they see an increase in the number of US-IMGs matching. This years match has the most number of US-IMGs Matching EVER in the history of the match. So how can it be harder if more US-IMGs are matching than in previous years. Everyone panics and complains how it's getting so much harder to match but the numbers don't really show that, at least not for US-IMGs. If you're not from the US and want to match then it will be hard, but it's always been hard.

so sure research and all that other stuff will help, but it's not needed to match into a non-competitive residency like neuro.

 

[dragonfly99]

Right now neuro is not super competitive. It is harder to get a spot than IM, but not super hard. Also, there are occasionally open spots at PGY2 that appear, even at some of the big university hospitals. Also, neuro requires an IM prelim year anyway, so you could always interview for a whole bunch of prelim IM spots as a backup. If you do it right you shouldn't end up without an intern year...worst case scenario if you had to try a couple times to get neuro, you could do a research year or something.

I would say the main thing if you are an IMG/FMG is don't mess up the USMLE tests. Definitely do not fail any step and do not get a barely passing score. If you can do above average that will help you. A US student might mess up but still get a neuro residency, but if you are from a foreign school nobody will cut you any slack.

Also, try to work with as many internists and neurologists while you are a 3rd and 4th year student as you can, and tell them of your interests in neurology. Try to get some LOR's from neurologists, hopefully at least association professor level, but full professor would be helpful. Psychiatry also has some overlap with neuro, so that would be a good rotation to try to excel in as well.

Neuro should be doable from the better Caribbean schools, particularly if you are a US student (i.e. no green card needed). There are a lot of FMG's and IMG's in neurology, and I'd predict it will stay that way at least in the near future.

For any student, it doesn't hurt to get as many electives and research experiences as you can in your chosen area. If you are still interested in neuro by your 4th year, frontload your schedule with a neuro sub-I, maybe a couple of months of neuro research or electives if you can set them up.

 

[dragonfly99]

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/6920.shtml

check this out...shows that for whatever reason, neuro spots open up not infrequently. It's just not a super competitive residency, at least not in recent years, and most likely won't change in a radical way any time soon. I think for the determined applicant, there will be a way to find a neuro spot, if the clinical grades and USMLE scores are all right.

 

[ChairmanMao]

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/6920.shtml

check this out...shows that for whatever reason, neuro spots open up not infrequently. It's just not a super competitive residency, at least not in recent years, and most likely won't change in a radical way any time soon. I think for the determined applicant, there will be a way to find a neuro spot, if the clinical grades and USMLE scores are all right.

Yep, the really competitive residency spots are surgerical residencies like neuro surgery, cardiac surgery, orthopeadic surgery, and plastic surgery.

 

[RussianJoo]

Yep, the really competitive residency spots are surgerical residencies like neuro surgery, cardiac surgery, orthopeadic surgery, and plastic surgery.

ct surgery is no longer competitive and actually a pretty undesirable field now that interventional cardiology is around, they have stolen 90% of CT surgery's business from them. CT surgery is a dying field.

 

[dragonfly99]

Agree...CT surg isn't that hard to get right now...pretty much all the surgical fields except CT surg and general surg are pretty hard to get, though. Even general and CT surg aren't necessarily "easy" in the sense of family practice, psych or IM. I believe in recent years, derm, urology and plastics have been the most competitive, but ortho and neurosurg would be close. You also have a lot of self-selection in those fields, in that only people with good med school grades, etc. even bother applying.