Good Med school vs. Bad med school

BU Medical Sciences
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Depends in what you're looking for. A good med school in my case would be one that is clinically very strong. For other people would be research heavy schools.

Really bad schools I would consider the schools that are in probation, but most of the time this probation are caused by some politic stuff, so no judgment there.
 
ariyon said:
How do you know the difference?
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I don't think you can compare schools directly as good/bad; there are myriad factors that affect which schools might be good for you.

For example, some schools have wholly unranked, pass/fail grading during their preclinical years. Other schools rank and assign Honors during those years, and the conventional wisdom is that having pass/fail grading can be really helpful. If you accept this stance, then that's one way to mark some schools as "good" for you and others as "bad".

Ditto for research emphasis, problem based learning, access to rural/urban populations, class size, 3rd year rotation options, etc. What I'm saying is that first you need to find out what you want in an ideal med school (compare curricula on web sites; buy the MSAR and peruse it), and only then can you make those good/bad rankings as they apply to you and only you.

ps. want a blanket statement? All accredited American MD schools are good. Caribbean schools are all bad. (Search the forums if you want info on why I'm saying this).
 
To me, a good one is one in which you feel you can fairly succeed (good, inclusive environment, efforts translate into good results). A bad one is where this does not exist (unresponsive faculty or administration, gunners, hard work does not equal good results, etc).

Some things that mean a school is good to one person may mean bad to another. For example, a pass/fail curriculum may be deemed ideal by some but others may prefer grades so that they are encouraged to work harder, that sort of thing.
 
I was actually thinking about this the other day - maybe one metric you could use would be Step 1 pass rate? I know there's a big difference between schools that "teach to the test" vs. others that expect students to self direct their step 1 studying - that's why you wouldn't look at average score. Of course, across the board pass rates are going to be quite high, but there's probably a meaningful difference between a school that consistently has a 98% pass rate vs one that is consistently at 93% (you'd have to look at a 5-year rolling average at least). Even if this is useful, it would still just be one data point in a larger picture. There are of course many other important factors to consider that vary from applicant to applicant.

Thoughts?
 
BlueLabel said:
I was actually thinking about this the other day - maybe one metric you could use would be Step 1 pass rate? I know there's a big difference between schools that "teach to the test" vs. others that expect students to self direct their step 1 studying - that's why you wouldn't look at average score. Of course, across the board pass rates are going to be quite high, but there's probably a meaningful difference between a school that consistently has a 98% pass rate vs one that is consistently at 93% (you'd have to look at a 5-year rolling average at least). Even if this is useful, it would still just be one data point in a larger picture. There are of course many other important factors to consider that vary from applicant to applicant.

Thoughts?
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Interesting thought.

However, I would like to say that a school's match list is more important than their average USMLE scores or their USMLE pass rates. I personally believe a school's match list is a testament to the student body's academic performance AND the school's reputation and connections with the medical world.
 
Is it a licensed medical school? Then it's good. It might be hard to imagine before interviewing (I thought so) but once you get to tour and interview at places I feel like you can get a good sense of what the student body is like there. You want to go somewhere where you have the resources to succeed. To those that want to do research, that means a research school, others want a strong support group (family) nearby. Pretty much every school has high Step 1 pass rates and average Step 1 scores. Also, match lists only tell you where students matched, not if that was their desired spot. The best medical school is the one you get accepted to and will allow you to pursue your own interests in medicine.
 
Syndicate said:
Interesting thought.

However, I would like to say that a school's match list is more important than their average USMLE scores or their USMLE pass rates. I personally believe a school's match list is a testament to the student body's academic performance AND the school's reputation and connections with the medical world.
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My instinct is to agree with you; however one objection I have heard raised against that view is that the match outcomes are highly self-selected; other considerations besides program quality (like location for example) also come into play. I guess another difficulty that I'd have in evaluating a match list is I'm not necessarily familiar with which programs are more elite than others. Of course, we all know certain specialties are more competitive, but I'm sure within specialties there are certain programs that are more or less elite and it would be important to understand those differences in interpreting a match list.

So maybe looking over the schools match lists would be a somewhat flawed but more informative metric that would require a bit of effort to interpret, while step 1 pass rate would be readily understood but less informative.
 
QuantumJ said:
Is it a licensed medical school? Then it's good. It might be hard to imagine before interviewing (I thought so) but once you get to tour and interview at places I feel like you can get a good sense of what the student body is like there. You want to go somewhere where you have the resources to succeed. To those that want to do research, that means a research school, others want a strong support group (family) nearby. Pretty much every school has high Step 1 pass rates and average Step 1 scores. Also, match lists only tell you where students matched, not if that was their desired spot. The best medical school is the one you get accepted to and will allow you to pursue your own interests in medicine.
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But almost everyone knows the best residencies are at Yale-New Haven, MGH, and Hopkins. In general, if you have fewer, if any, students matched into these highly competitive residencies, then it's probably not as resourceful as a school that did have several who matched into these specialties. Obviously there are exceptions. But let's put SUNY Downstate against NYU. Same location but NYU probably has a more impressive match list.
 
Well my point is that as premeds, we don't know anything about which locations are in fact the highly ranked, competitive locations. What if general surgery in Louisiana is higher ranked than some named program in the north east? We simply don't know where the competitive locations are for each field. It might be better to look simply at the specialties that are represented but again this doesn't tell us what the students wanted to match into. Maybe one year no one wanted to do rad onc so there aren't any matches into it. Or maybe someone wanted to do neurosurg but didn't match and did a different, competitive surg field. I personally feel like match lists are of limited value in general but that's only my view on it. I'm looking at going into a very competitive specialty and I've been looking if 1) there would be research in this field nearby 2) available 4th rotations in said field and lastly 3) if anyone has matched into the field recently.
 
QuantumJ said:
Is it a licensed medical school? Then it's good. It might be hard to imagine before interviewing (I thought so) but once you get to tour and interview at places I feel like you can get a good sense of what the student body is like there. You want to go somewhere where you have the resources to succeed. To those that want to do research, that means a research school, others want a strong support group (family) nearby. Pretty much every school has high Step 1 pass rates and average Step 1 scores. Also, match lists only tell you where students matched, not if that was their desired spot. The best medical school is the one you get accepted to and will allow you to pursue your own interests in medicine.
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As someone with immediate family on med school faculty, it's definitely not this simple. I largely agree with the rest of what you've said though.
 
gettheleadout said:
As someone with immediate family on med school faculty, it's definitely not this simple. I largely agree with the rest of what you've said though.
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Would you say whether a med school is "good" largely depends on the geographic region you are surveying? University of North Dakota SOM may be the best med school in the US to North Dakotans. Similarly, any of the Texas schools may be the "best" med school in the US to Texans. Obviously the Harvards and Hopkins of the world at the best everywhere but would you say that for smaller/less prestigious med schools, they would be regarded as "the best" med school in their region or state by their own people?
 
Syndicate said:
But almost everyone knows the best residencies are at Yale-New Haven, MGH, and Hopkins. In general, if you have fewer, if any, students matched into these highly competitive residencies, then it's probably not as resourceful as a school that did have several who matched into these specialties. Obviously there are exceptions. But let's put SUNY Downstate against NYU. Same location but NYU probably has a more impressive match list.
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I'm not sure that's completely true. Some of the best residencies aren't at "big name" places like MGH. It depends on the specialty and the current attendings directing the program. I've heard that some "big shot" places aren't all that great with the actual teaching. BlueLabel is right in that we don't really know what programs are elite.
 
BlueLabel said:
I was actually thinking about this the other day - maybe one metric you could use would be Step 1 pass rate?
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I would disagree. Step 1 comes down to an individual's test taking and studying abilities. Guaranteed every medical school curriculum broadly covers Step material whether the school "teaches to the test" or not.
 
dismorfik said:
I would disagree. Step 1 comes down to an individual's test taking and studying abilities. Guaranteed every medical school curriculum broadly covers Step material whether the school "teaches to the test" or not.
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That's a good point. Do you have an alternate suggestion?
 
BlueLabel said:
That's a good point. Do you have an alternate suggestion?
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You probably would have to judge a med school like a residency program - by word of mouth. Talk to the current med students about their experiences, specifically in areas you are interested in.
 
histidine said:
I'm not sure that's completely true. Some of the best residencies aren't at "big name" places like MGH. It depends on the specialty and the current attendings directing the program. I've heard that some "big shot" places aren't all that great with the actual teaching. BlueLabel is right in that we don't really know what programs are elite.
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+1. Through work, I've gotten to know a professor at Stanford whose spoken with me at length about med school, residency, etc. His take is that if you want to go into academics, then go for the big name residencies, where your first two years or so will be spent writing papers while the attendings do the real stuff ("MGH, Mayo, etc. aren't considered top programs because they're letting all their first years perform procedures"). If you want to be the best clinician, go to a less-reputable residency that allows you to take on a lot more responsibilities from day one. I think there's some validity to the idea.
 
So how do I find data on matching results?
 
Regarding Step I:

When I interviewed at UCSF, a student said that residency programs know the schools that "teach to the test" versus schools that don't.
So when comparing two applicants with the same Step I score, your score will be more highly regarded if you come from a school that don't teach to the test.
She said that that is why UCSF sends people to great residency programs even though their Step I average is right around the national average.

This is just one point of view, but I think it makes sense! Thoughts?
 
Even if one runs the gauntlet of being in a position to actually apply to med school completed (i.e, competitive grades, MCAT, rec letters, etc), almost 60% of the applicants will not get accepted anywhere. Getting into and graduating from any US medical schools is good, period.

Look at the Results of the 2012 NRMP Program Director Survey .

You will see in above (Figures 1 and 2) that in deciding to offer a fourth year medical student an interview and whether to rank a student for a residency position the surveyed Program Directors (PD) consider it a more important factor that a student graduate from ANY US allopathic school (v osteopathic or foreign) than if someone graduates from a highly regarded US med school. I think the fact that the decision makers (PD) put more weight on a student graduating from any US med school v. a highly regarded US med school supports my argument that any US med school is good.
 
Syndicate said:
But almost everyone knows the best residencies are at Yale-New Haven, MGH, and Hopkins. In general, if you have fewer, if any, students matched into these highly competitive residencies, then it's probably not as resourceful as a school that did have several who matched into these specialties. Obviously there are exceptions. But let's put SUNY Downstate against NYU. Same location but NYU probably has a more impressive match list.
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Yes, clearly all premeds have extensive knowledge of the pros and cons of various residencies in all fields and know which are best.
 
amvet70 said:
Even if one runs the gauntlet of being in a position to actually apply to med school completed (i.e, competitive grades, MCAT, rec letters, etc), almost 60% of the applicants will not get accepted anywhere. Getting into and graduating from any US medical schools is good, period.

Look at the Results of the 2012 NRMP Program Director Survey .

You will see in above (Figures 1 and 2) that in deciding to offer a fourth year medical student an interview and whether to rank a student for a residency position the surveyed Program Directors (PD) consider it a more important factor that a student graduate from ANY US allopathic school (v osteopathic or foreign) than if someone graduates from a highly regarded US med school. I think the fact that the decision makers (PD) put more weight on a student graduating from any US med school v. a highly regarded US med school supports my argument that any US med school is good.
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This 100%.

Oh and residency rankings vary according to specialty. For example, for ER, if your in Balt. you want to be at Maryland not Hopkins.
 
armybound said:
The match list is worthless.
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Preach.

I submit that there is no easy way to compare apples to apples any medical school's match list. At one of my interviews recently, an admissions rep mentioned that while their match list is very "strong" with lots of students matching at top programs for their chosen specialty, there are many other factors that students look into when applying to residencies. For example, she said that one of their top students would have been a strong candidate for nearly any program they'd apply to, but chose to look at lower ranked schools because either 1) family was there or 2) significant other had a job there and they didn't want to uproot them by moving across the country. Point being, we don't know why students pick the residencies they apply to, and it's a fallacy to assume that their match list reflects the "best" they can get into.


I think that all US med schools are reputable, but the difference comes down to your personal choice about what you want out of your education. Research? Volunteer/community experience? Clinical intensive? It's up to you what's 'good' and what's 'bad'.
 
Good med school = classes not required
Bad med school = required class
 
askamsky51 said:
Cost of attendance.

The best medical school in the US is the cheapest one you get into.
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I am finding myself to agree with this more and more as time goes by, but there is some optimal $$ that a person would be willing to pay for happiness or "The experience." Some pre-meds I know would be magnitudes happier if they could leave the state.
 
How is the match list worthless? That's one of the first things I look at. At first glance, it may seem trivial or even useless to evaluate a school based solely on the match, but when compared over the last few years, you start to get a feel for the quality of programs the school is capable of sending their students to.

Also, it's a useful tool to compare geographic data (schools in NYC with match to programs in New York and NE United States, regional bias, etc). For applicants who may be faced with the choice of leaving the country or choosing between DO and IMG, a school's "history" of matching could inevitably seal the deal.

I don't really care about COA; I'm surrounded by cheap schools. I am more worried about location, nearby teaching hospitals, reputation, early exposure to patient exposure, and preclinical grading (P/F--real P/F, not that internal ranking BS).
 
La Presse said:
How is the match list worthless? That's one of the first things I look at. At first glance, it may seem trivial or even useless to evaluate a school based solely on the match, but when compared over the last few years, you start to get a feel for the quality of programs the school is capable of sending their students to.

Also, it's a useful tool to compare geographic data (schools in NYC with match to programs in New York and NE United States, regional bias, etc). For applicants who may be faced with the choice of leaving the country or choosing between DO and IMG, a school's "history" of matching could inevitably seal the deal.
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A kid from Harvard matches a small family medicine residency in Waco, Texas. Is that good or bad? Was that kid the loser from Harvard?

Where you match depends on a lot of factors, including your intelligence, work ethic, personality, regional preference, specialty preference, connections/people you know, random chance, the other people who applied and interviewed at that program, and a ton of other factors, none of which is indicative of the quality of the school you attended.

Kids from Top 20 medical schools land top residencies? Maybe they are in good residencies for the same reason they're in good medical schools -- they're intelligent, hard working, personable, etc.
 
Syndicate said:
But almost everyone knows the best residencies are at Yale-New Haven, MGH, and Hopkins. In general, if you have fewer, if any, students matched into these highly competitive residencies, then it's probably not as resourceful as a school that did have several who matched into these specialties. Obviously there are exceptions. But let's put SUNY Downstate against NYU. Same location but NYU probably has a more impressive match list.
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So I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but just in case...

Please, for the love of God, DO NOT choose your medical school based on Match Lists!!!!!

So, who exactly decided the best residencies are at Yale and MGH? If best = most prestigious in your opinion, that's fine, but that is by no means best for everyone. I mean, have you ever been to New Haven- WOOF! The smartest girl I know, who would have zero problems getting into any program in any specialty with her credentials, went with a small program in her home state as #1 on her rank list because that was best for her.

Go on your interviews and get a feel for the school- if you get warm and fuzzy feelings +1, if every student looks miserable -1. Will you be happy/miserable in that city? All things equal- go with the cheapest option. Don't overthink it!
 
Because it only has where students ended up. Not where they wanted to end up. Couple this with premeds not knowing where good programs are for each speciality makes matchs list of limited utility.
 
La Presse said:
How is the match list worthless? That's one of the first things I look at. At first glance, it may seem trivial or even useless to evaluate a school based solely on the match, but when compared over the last few years, you start to get a feel for the quality of programs the school is capable of sending their students to.
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But you have no idea what the quality of the programs are. Just because it has a big name (Hopkins, Yale, w/e) doesn't mean it's a top residency program in that specialty. And for the most part, pre-meds don't have that knowledge.
 
This whole "you can't really evaluate a school based on the match list" song and dance happened like a week ago in another thread. It will come up again next week. In all these threads, it will premeds looking at match lists and med students saying that doing so isn't helpful.
 
Best: Cheapest US allopathic med school with students you feel like you relate to and a curriculum that matches your learning style.

Mediocre: New US med school with no previously graduated classes. DO school

Worst: Caribbean
 
mcloaf said:
This whole "you can't really evaluate a school based on the match list" song and dance happened like a week ago in another thread. It will come up again next week. In all these threads, it will premeds looking at match lists and med students saying that doing so isn't helpful.
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but hey, they know better than a medical student/resident/attending. they know what's really important.
 
Syndicate said:
But almost everyone knows the best residencies are at Yale-New Haven, MGH, and Hopkins. In general, if you have fewer, if any, students matched into these highly competitive residencies, then it's probably not as resourceful as a school that did have several who matched into these specialties. Obviously there are exceptions. But let's put SUNY Downstate against NYU. Same location but NYU probably has a more impressive match list.
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Having done all my clinical experiences at Yale-New Haven and affliated clinical sites, I really hope this is not true. And even if it is, that's still not a sufficient reason to go to New Haven. The city is literally the worst I have ever lived in.
 
Dbate said:
Having done all my clinical experiences at Yale-New Haven and affliated clinical sites, I really hope this is not true. And even if it is, that's still not a sufficient reason to go to New Haven. The city is literally the worst I have ever lived in.
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lmao is it really that bad
 
suny downstate is actually a great school with a fantastic match list. some of the most impressive people i've met went to downstate
 
BlueLabel said:
That's a good point. Do you have an alternate suggestion?
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Match list (look at Internal Medicine and Surgery... ignore the fluff).

IMO state schools are the best. They're cheap, have a good research/clinical balance, and generally have good reputations.
 
Dbate said:
Having done all my clinical experiences at Yale-New Haven and affliated clinical sites, I really hope this is not true. And even if it is, that's still not a sufficient reason to go to New Haven. The city is literally the worst I have ever lived in.
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Didn't you say the same of NYC
 
I'd put more stock in peer assessment than most of the other factors going in to ranking. Either way it's a stupid list.
 
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