Good News for Near-Future Applicants

[boaz]

---

Members do not see this ad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/education/15medschools.html?ref=todayspaper

 

[iamxp]

Anyone know when Hofstra will be opening?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

once again the article forgets the physician supply is determined by residencies and not medical schools

 

[boaz]

once again the article forgets the physician supply is determined by residencies and not medical schools

Yea, but it does mention IMGs in a way that implies that the graduates of the new US schools will take some of those residency spots.

 

[flip26]

The most interesting thing in the article: the guy featured in the story, the one who applied to 30 schools and got accepted at 2 - he turned down NYMC, an established school, for a new school I have never even heard of...

 

[flip26]

Yea, but it does mention IMGs in a way that implies that the graduates of the new US schools will take some of those residency spots.

Correct - I don't think the article confused more American med grads with an improvement in physician shortages here - it is more about creating educational opportunities here for Americans instead of them having to go offshore.

If anything, the article points out that physician shortages and imbalances in the distribution of doctors in rural areas are ongoing problems that may have to be solved with alternate med professionals like PAs, NPs, etc.

The upshot of this article - this is bad news for people who go offshore - residency slots are static, and will increasingly be filled by US grads.

 

[Superfrost]

The main result of these changes will be that more americans can stay in the states for school, but in the end they could end up in the same residency spots that they might have coming from the Caribbean.

 

[tennisball80]

Increasing the number of residency spots is also critical.

 

[boaz]

Increasing the number of residency spots is also critical.

👍 Especially in rural areas. It'd be good if some residency programs branched out to those areas. There actually has been a trend going that way recently.

 

[DrBowtie]

👍 Especially in rural areas. It'd be good if some residency programs branched out to those areas. There actually has been a trend going that way recently.

What?!?!? Those are the programs that go unfilled that few people want and end up IMG/FMG heavy.

I'd also say bad news for near future applicants as that means greater competition for the cush specialty spots. So congrats you get in, but you might get pushed out of your ideal residency.

 

[rockaction]

This is interesting, has a lot of the same information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States

scroll down to "Developing medical schools"

2 new UCs in a couple years! there is hope yet for CA residents

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Increasing the number of residency spots is also critical.

Residency spots are increased through federal funding to the tune of $150k/spot/yr. Given the current deficits, this is unlikely to happen.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

This is interesting, has a lot of the same information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States

scroll down to "Developing medical schools"

2 new UCs in a couple years! there is hope yet for CA residents

Given the current fiscal state of the UC system, I doubt these schools will open any time soon.

 

[boaz]

What?!?!? Those are the programs that go unfilled that few people want and end up IMG/FMG heavy.

I'd also say bad news for near future applicants as that means greater competition for the cush specialty spots. So congrats you get in, but you might get pushed out of your ideal residency.

Not in family medicine, at least.

 

[boaz]

This is interesting, has a lot of the same information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States

scroll down to "Developing medical schools"

2 new UCs in a couple years! there is hope yet for CA residents

Why is Virginia Tech still in the "Developing medical schools" section? Aren't they accepting applications?

 

[grotto]

Secondary to the article, the NYT seems to have weighed in on the favorite source of friction over here at SDN.

No mention of the DO school expansion over the last few years - Jaggerplate needs to get over there into the comments section!

Seems like the most realistic outcome of all of this is that fewer DO's and FMG's are going to get a crack at ACGME spots - might add some weight to that VSAS conspiracy theory.

Nevertheless, medical schools and the LCME need to do everything possible to avoid creating the impression or reality of a "tier" system in medical education. The fact that every medical student has the opportunity to enter the specialty residency of their choice after graduation is special and contrasts with the situation in law education, where Tier 2 through 4 law graduates have little hope of finding high-compensation work out of school.

They need to ensure that LCME schools are holding the line on rotations, research, and admissions standards.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

The fact that every medical student has the opportunity to enter the specialty residency of their choice after graduation

more accurate would be "The fact that every medical student has the opportunity to enter the specialty residency of their choice after graduation if they work really hard and excel in medical school"

 

[Geekchick921]

The most interesting thing in the article: the guy featured in the story, the one who applied to 30 schools and got accepted at 2 - he turned down NYMC, an established school, for a new school I have never even heard of...

Didn't they give the first class at Commonwealth a nice scholarship and/or stipend for attending? Plus, I'm assuming since he went to UPitt and decided to attend TCMC, that he's a PA resident and got a bit of a tuition discount, too. That's just my guess, though.

Personally, both of those schools are on my list right now. If they were the only two I got into, I'd probably go to whichever one would result is less debt when I got out.

 

[boaz]

Didn't they give the first class at Commonwealth a nice scholarship and/or stipend for attending? Plus, I'm assuming since he went to UPitt and decided to attend TCMC, that he's a PA resident and got a bit of a tuition discount, too. That's just my guess, though.

Personally, both of those schools are on my list right now. If they were the only two I got into, I'd probably go to whichever one would result is less debt when I got out.

The article said that the first year gets 1/2 off tuition.

 

[grotto]

more accurate would be "The fact that every medical student has the opportunity to enter the specialty residency of their choice after graduation if they work really hard and excel in medical school"

Absolutely. But I was contrasting the fact that all specialties are open to medical students of all schools (obviously depending on their performance) to the reality for a lot of law students. You can be top of your class at a T3 or T4 law school and still have no shot at a competitive associate position. We don't want this to happen - the current thoughts on USNWR not meaning anything for medicine is a good thing.

 

[Geekchick921]

The article said that the first year gets 1/2 off tuition.

I would have been all over that like white on rice.

 

[rockaction]

Given the current fiscal state of the UC system, I doubt these schools will open any time soon.

they should start charging tuition

Why is Virginia Tech still in the "Developing medical schools" section? Aren't they accepting applications?

yeah they accepted applicants this year. on that article the opening year is listed as 2010 for VTech.

 

[Crupen]

That link says Hofstra will be accepting from 2011. Does that mean they will accept apps this summer 2010 for fall 2011 entry? or does it mean they will be accepting apps in summer 2011 for Fall 2012 entry?

 

[Geekchick921]

That link says Hofstra will be accepting from 2011. Does that mean they will accept apps this summer 2010 for fall 2011 entry? or does it mean they will be accepting apps in summer 2011 for Fall 2012 entry?

Hofstra's website says...

Hofstra University School of Medicine in partnership with North Shore-LIJ Health System, which hopes to admit its first class in 2011, is currently pursuing preliminary accreditation with the Liaison Committee on Medical Education and approval from the State of New York.

 

[rockymhs]

I am glad that I got into a med school at this point.

There will be fierce upcoming competition for residences once all these schools become accredited and producing 5000 more students on top of 18000 pre-existing med students per year.

Personally, I would stay away from med schools that just opened unless I receive full scholarship. It is just too risky to have an education at an institution that has not solidified its curriculum.

 

[austinap]

I am glad that I got into a med school at this point.

There will be fierce upcoming competition for residences once all these schools become accredited and producing 5000 more students on top of 18000 pre-existing med students per year.

Personally, I would stay away from med schools that just opened unless I receive full scholarship. It is just too risky to have an education at an institution that has not solidified its curriculum.

Exactly. This quote

“Huge numbers of qualified American kids were not getting into American medical schools or going abroad to study,” Dr. Lawrence G. Smith, dean of the proposed Hofstra University School of Medicine, in Hempstead, N.Y., which is not yet recruiting students, said last week. “I think it was a kind of wake-up call.”

from the article is pretty ridiculous too. If they expanded the number of med schools to accommodate all pre-med students in this country, we're going to have a number of other severe problems in the future. We don't want the same thing that happened to law education to happen to medical education.

 

[morning]

http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm

I prefer this website to Wiki or a news article, since it is actually the official website 😉

I was very excited to see that Michigan is getting not one but TWO new medical schools. I'm still early in undergrad so I'm hoping CMU will be open by the time I'm ready to apply, as much as it would suck to go to a school whose colors are mustard and maroon. For sure Oakland will be. Unfortunately I think they're both privately funded, so high tuition, but being at home would be nice...

I think we will see more and more medical schools opening, because they help to inject money into local economies. Hopefully we will see more residency spots open as well.

 

[bigman225]

We don't want the same thing that happened to law education to happen to medical education.

Amen

 

[ilikekiwis]

they should start charging tuition

they do. they should be charging more for OOS though to be on par with private schools.

 

[morning]

We don't want the same thing that happened to law education to happen to medical education.

Amen

While the thought is a bit alarming, I don't think we have to worry about a situation like what is happening to law and pharm happening to medicine. For one, there is a shortage of physicians already, and the same cannot be said of lawyers. For another, it's very difficult to start a new med school (and difficult to complete one) while the same cannot be said of pharmacy. Medicine is not a "cushy" job, which is something pharmacy is often said to be whether it is or not. It takes a lot of drive to complete 7 years of post-undergrad education. Professions that become glutted are usually NOT the ones with 7 years of training, 80 hour workweeks and 1:3 call.

Demand for physicians will only grow if access to physicians grows - i.e., fewer uninsured, although whether that will result in lower salaries is well beyond my (lack of) economic expertise.

It would definitely suck if we suddenly had 5000 new MDs a year with no corresponding increase in residency slots, but this proposal is specifically aimed towards decreasing the amount of IMGs filling residencies. I'm not xenophobic but I think putting more Americans into American jobs is always a good thing.

Another thought for the day: if we don't increase the amount of physicians in circulation, we might find ourselves squeezed anyway. The NP lobby is going to jump on any shortage as proof we need their skills as independent providors, and clueless bureaucrats are going to eat it up.

 

[RookTookIt]

It takes a lot of drive to complete 7 years of post-undergrad education. Professions that become glutted are usually NOT the ones with 7 years of training, 80 hour workweeks and 1:3 call.

I completely agree with most of what you said, but working hard for a degree does not mean you will necessarily be rewarded for it. Just look at grad students in the basic sciences (which are the only grad students I know) who work for 5-6 years for their PhD and then another 3 or more as a postdoc and then look at the number of open faculty positions.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well this gave me hope XD. If a kid with a 3.3 got into medical school I might just get in too in 2013.. When all those new schools open up and I get a mighty fine discount XD.

 

[deleted212936]

Is there really a physician shortage? http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/02/is-there-really-physician-shortage.html

 

[LuciusVorenus]

So basically so far there are...

For us poor Californians:
UC Merced 😍
UC Riverside 😍

Scripps (only md/phd though right?)
Quinnipiac
Oakland University
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
William Carey (DO)
Missouri Southern State (DO)
Rowan University
Touro
Hofstra
Western University of Health Sciences (DO)
Seton Hill (DO)
King School
University of Houston
Virginia Tech

most of them are opening 2011-2013
does anyone know of any other ones?

 

[Richzz89]

Here are all the new medical schools so far I think

For us poor Californians:
UC Merced 😍
UC Riverside 😍

Scripps (only md/phd though right?)
Quinnipiac
Oakland University
Central Michigan
Western Michigan
William Carey (DO)
Missouri Southern State (DO)
Rowan University
Touro
Hofstra
Western University of Health Sciences (DO)
Seton Hill (DO)
King School
University of Houston
Virginia Tech

most of them are opening 2011-2013
does anyone know of any other ones?

UC Riverside is suppose to be accepting 50 students in its first class starting Fall 2012.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

UC Riverside is suppose to be accepting 50 students in its first class starting Fall 2012.

I'm hoping some of the news ones beside the two UCs are OOS friendly since I'm going to be applying for 2012-2013

 

[twostep376]

Amen

+1

expanding medical school classes at existing schools slightly might be better... Each school expands a bit until the need Is satisfied, then add schools as needed. If too many new schools are created, after the baby boomers we may have too many schools.

 

[longhorn09]

And the number of residency spots remain unchanged?

 

[alibai3ah]

UC Riverside and UC Merced, I believe will do well. Just b/c Californians are so desperate to stay and a UC medical school education nearly guarantees a California residency spot.

But I agree that with the budget cut problem, medical schools are kinda on the back of people's mind. At least until the undergrads try to figure out what they are going to do.

I read an article about 3-4 months ago where the UCSD president (for undergrad) claimed that "the Top 4-5 UC's shouldn't have to suffer and that the bottom 3 should be shut down....I'm assuming he's refering to Riverside, Merced, Santa Cruz". Not sure if this statement is true, but kinda douchy...

 

[SoulinNeed]

Will the average salary of a primary care doctor (Internal Medicine) go down in 10 years because of this? As someone who's used to the law field, this type of stuff scares me, so please tell me the truth.

 

[johncalvin]

Will the average salary of a primary care doctor (Internal Medicine) go down in 10 years because of this? As someone who's used to the law field, this type of stuff scares me, so please tell me the truth.

Two things:

(1) Number of IM residents will not be affected (it will make it harder for IMG/FMGs to get residencies though.)

(2) An increased supply of physicians does not necessarily reduce the compensation rate in most geographic areas. This is not totally true, but the phenomenon is a deviation from neo-classical economics. The major reason for this is that demand for most medical services is highly inelastic; even so, prices are not raise to an equilibrium point. A "normal" profit-maximizing firm would keep raising prices in the face of inelastic demand until it reached an elastic portion higher up the demand curve. This does not really happen with physicians' short-term compensation. Therefore, a good number of additional physicians can be accommodated within a geographic area without much effect on the de facto price ceiling.

 

[JJMrK]

What?!?!? Those are the programs that go unfilled that few people want and end up IMG/FMG heavy.

I'd also say bad news for near future applicants as that means greater competition for the cush specialty spots. So congrats you get in, but you might get pushed out of your ideal residency.

Secondary to the article, the NYT seems to have weighed in on the favorite source of friction over here at SDN.

No mention of the DO school expansion over the last few years - Jaggerplate needs to get over there into the comments section!

Seems like the most realistic outcome of all of this is that fewer DO's and FMG's are going to get a crack at ACGME spots - might add some weight to that VSAS conspiracy theory.

Nevertheless, medical schools and the LCME need to do everything possible to avoid creating the impression or reality of a "tier" system in medical education. The fact that every medical student has the opportunity to enter the specialty residency of their choice after graduation is special and contrasts with the situation in law education, where Tier 2 through 4 law graduates have little hope of finding high-compensation work out of school.

They need to ensure that LCME schools are holding the line on rotations, research, and admissions standards.

I guess we'll see what happens.