Good or bad? No interview, but being ranked.

[Manus Dei]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I have a unique question I haven't seen discussed on the forum yet. I'll give a rundown of my situation and would really like it if any current/former PDs out there would weigh in. For the sake of remaining anonymous, I wont state the program's name/field.

I am a 4th year going into a competitive field. I rotated at my #1 place this fall, which is not a super competitive program in it's field -- it was/is my #1 as it's near family, I know the area well, residents/faculty were amazing, and they get a huge volume in all subspecialties.

I did everything required of me and then some. I didn't get to rotate with the PD, as he was on vacation the week I was on his subspecialty service, but when I talked to him upon his return, he said it wasn't an issue and that he would see me during the interview season (verbatim: "It's not a problem, I will see you at your interview"). I got along well with the residents, and ended up receiving honors from the program for the rotation.

Here's where it get's wonky -- I received a letter from the PD stating that due to the number of competitive applicants this year, the program was limiting the number of rotators being interviewed, and that they were sorry they were unable to offer me one of the spots. He went on to say that my application was competitive and that the program would still be ranking me since I rotated. He went on to state that my month long rotation would serve as a surrogate to an interview and that the info they gained on me was more valuable than anything an interview could offer.

My question(s) is/are: is this a good or bad thing? Does this mean my application was unqualified for an interview spot? Or, does it mean that me honoring the month-long rotation made an interview unnecessary? Has anyone else experienced this? I am close friends with two people who rotated and they both received interview offers, shrouding the situation more.

For an idea of the strength of my app, I have an MPH (dual degree prgm) and an MS, a low 240's step 1, 7 research positions held and 5 publications in the field/other fields, 8 national/statewide posters/orals, and a handful of leadership positions/awards. My step 2 is still pending as I took it 4 days ago. CS passed, first attempt. Non AOA.

Apologies this was so long, but any input is appreciated as I am wondering if this is a bad or a good thing, and subsequently wondering how I should approach ranking a program like this.

 

[Siggy]

My read, "We don't like you enough to interview you. However, in case things go sideways we'd rather have you instead of SOAPing, so enjoy your spot on the bottom of our rank list."


So I would definitely rank them... and you should rank them as you would rank any other program. However if you're thinking along the lines of "I interviewed/ranked X number of spots... therefore I should be safe," then I wouldn't count this program in that count.

 

[WinslowPringle]

Rank the program where you want for the good reasons you listed, it won't hurt. I'd take into serious consideration, though, the PD's actions in my rank list. Seems a tad sketch.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Piling on here:

sounds wonky to me; I would venture its a nice way to say, "thanks but no thanks"
rank them in whatever order YOU prefer without regard to where you are (if you are) on their list

 

[the argus]

As others have said, rank them where you want. You literally lose nothing by doing this.

That said, I personally would never go to a program where the PD did this kind of thing. Who knows what the PD was thinking, but sending out an email like this creates unnecessary stress for the individual receiving it. It's pretty disrespectful and unprofessional actually. Either the PD doesn't realize this, or doesn't care, but either way I would be wary of going to a program where the PD acts like this. You want a program that is honest and upfront with it's residents, and sending that email is anything but.

 

[Crayola227]

There are some programs that do this, but it's more uniform policy and considerate when it happens as a matter of a course that doesn't reflect poorly on you or them.

They usually tell you right off the bat that if you are rotating and applying to the program they can interview you while you are there to save you a flight (hence it is actually to help you save money and the program time) but is not a reflection of a lack of interest in you / organization

OR

They tell you such is the case, but that if you want a formal interview you can have it, essentially they are giving you an out for a flight, again I'm assuming this is to be considerate of all parties, not brush people off

I would literally shrug this off if this is what they were doing for ALL rotators, if it didn't have the off-handed feel from the PD you are reporting

That said, your rank list should just be in the order of your true preference
How much should this hurt how you feel about being a resident at this program? Dunno.
You know, every program has its problems and could have its **** more or less together in some areas. In my mind, the two most concerning things about a program are the level of happiness of the residents coupled with how well you and the PD are going to get on. At the end of the day, the PD makes you or breaks you. Another reason why program where you don't get a sit down with the PD or at least the assistant PD, is less than ideal. Granted, PDs can change unexpectedly which is why the culture (as gauged by resident happy level) is important. Anyway, even 10 min with a PD can give you a feeling.

TLDR
not getting a formal interview as a rotator is not necessarily a deal breaker
this particular PD not seeming to give a crap is more concerning
rank this place anyway since you liked it, don't know where you should stick it given the PD

 

[DocBlin]

I call BS on that PD!. Are there other programs in the area/community you desire? Either list this one last on your match listing or not at all. But even if you obtained a match there, you would always wonder why this PD did that. It doesn't really cost much to do a phone interview with you if they could not offer a face to face interview. At least that would be more palatable. Are you sure you want to be trained by this program? Also maybe try and contact one of the chief residents to see what is going on if you feel comfortable with doing that.

 

[Etorphine]

If they were going to take you, why would they need to maximize interview slots for others? Just to play devil's advocate..

 

[Manus Dei]

Thank you all so much! I appreciate all the replies and input, they have been very beneficial! The consensus seems to be that it's not a good thing, but to rank them nonetheless. I will definitely take into account the PD's actions, because I do want to work with/for someone with integrity and while I'm not saying this PD has none (I wouldn't assume this of anyone I've only met once), this just feels too bizarre... like the ultimate slap in the face. The good news? I have over 3 months before my rank list is due.

DocBlin, that is the only program in the area, but I have three interviews in the same state so far, and four within 4 hours of the program in question. So, if I match and want to return to the area at a later time, it should be feasible.

Etorphine, I think that since the matching algorithm favors applicants (they can't just "take you") and they aren't a top quartile program in the field, it would only make sense to rank a bunch of applicants as they do not know where I/others will rank them and subsequently match... i.e. I could rank them 7th and match at my 5th choice. I could be wrong though.

As an update: I contacted a resident to ask if I had done anything concerning and the resident's reply was no, but that the PD, being a relatively new PD, has been making sweeping changes, almost unilaterally. The resident said in the past 4 years, only 1 rotator was not extended an invite (skipped a weekend call day, consistently late), this year the residents have heard from myself and 3 others, all who did great in their eyes, who didn't get an invite.

 

[Raryn]

My program doesn't offer formal interviews to rotators at all... Their last day of the rotation, they just get to go through the powerpoint with the administration and have an exit interview with the PD. We always rank many of our rotators highly, given how many match with us...

That said, while I normally wouldn't think anything of it if you weren't offered a formal interview after a rotation, the PD's behavior is bizarre. It's one thing to state that rotators don't need to formally interview... but it's another to actually tell them you are cherry picking and only certain rotators need to. That's just strange.

 

[DuskPhilosophy]

This might seem like a weird question but are there any adverse outcomes if OP were to rank this program as their #1?

If they didn't rank him high enough it would just skip to his/her numer 2 choice and, Match gods willing, he/she'd just match there right?

 

[rokshana]

while he said he was ranking you, where is is ranking you is not as clear...as others have said, rank them as you want to, but don't hold your breath (though if they are really not so competitive in the field, they may have to go lower on their rank list to fill.

 

[clausewitz2]

This might seem like a weird question but are there any adverse outcomes if OP were to rank this program as their #1?

If they didn't rank him high enough it would just skip to his/her numer 2 choice and, Match gods willing, he/she'd just match there right?

You could rank every single program in the country you did not interview at the top of your list and it would not affect your match results one iota.

 

[Law2Doc]

This might seem like a weird question but are there any adverse outcomes if OP were to rank this program as their #1?

If they didn't rank him high enough it would just skip to his/her numer 2 choice and, Match gods willing, he/she'd just match there right?

Right. No real downside except (a) he might end up at a program that barely liked him better than SOAP, and (b) he thereafter couldn't earnestly tell another program they were his "number 1" (if he was interested in playing that silly game).

 

[Raryn]

You could rank every single program in the country you did not interview at the top of your list and it would not affect your match results one iota.

Would cost you a fair bit of $$ though 😛

 

[hamstergang]

You could rank every single program in the country you did not interview at the top of your list and it would not affect your match results one iota.

I had to explain this to my PD, and he still doesn't believe me. 🙁

 

[IMPD]

I had to explain this to my PD, and he still doesn't believe me. 🙁

The Match, because of it's anonymity and power, is the source of many myths. I highly recommend the NRMP Twitter account or Facebook for anyone who wants to ask detailed and repetitive questions that are at least one way of trying to dispel these myths. People who believe in Match Myths are not likely to change their minds when presented with facts, but that's just the way humans are. Stubborn. And often stupid.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The Match, because of it's anonymity and power, is the source of many myths.

 

[Psai]

Who is that green guy?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Who is that green guy?

You've never seen the Wizard of Oz?

 

[redfish99]

This is one of the oddest things I have ever heard of.

 

[gutonc]

This is one of the oddest things I have ever heard of.

The OP or the fact that @Psai didn't know who the Wizard of Oz was?

 

[redfish99]

The OP or the fact that @Psai didn't know who the Wizard of Oz was?

The OP, the wizard of oz thing is excusable (but barely)

 

[Mad Jack]

Who is that green guy?