Good things about awful rad job market

[DermViser]

Wow, Andrew Schlafly, founder of Conservapedia, was one of the debators.

He seemed to know more about the issue of MOC than many of the others did. MOC doesn't weed out the "bad apples".

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[maxxor]

As a field, the ABR needs to get rid of the FMG loophole. It's such a joke.

 

[Kaputt]

As a field, the ABR needs to get rid of the FMG loophole. It's such a joke.

It's clear why it's still in place though. Gives academic departments free labor.

It's embarrassing to the field that the loophole is still open.

 

[DermViser]

It's clear why it's still in place though. Gives academic departments free labor.

It's embarrassing to the field that the loophole is still open.

But what makes Radiology different than other specialties with respect to wanting free labor?

 

[Kaputt]

But what makes Radiology different than other specialties with respect to wanting free labor?

Pure speculation, but maybe if academic rads attendings don't like taking call, they can force fellows to do it for them. You could argue that about any field though but in rads the older attendings are used to living a great lifestyle, like the olden days when CT and MRI volume overnight was negligible.

 

[rule out normal]

As a field, the ABR needs to get rid of the FMG loophole. It's such a joke.

It has to be open for a damn good reason. Someone or some group of people is reaping the benefits of the loophole, and I'm not talking about the FMGs themselves. I think people in the ABR, or associated with the ABR's decision-making body, get some kind of reward (personal, political, or financial) for allowing the inflow of FMGs. It could be someone sympathetic to FMGs, is an FMG themselves, etc.

More likely, IMO, the ABR fears backlash similar to that seen in the UK, when their NHS said FMGs had unsatisfactory outcomes and therefore the NHS should make board exams harder to pass. They were immediately accused of racism and xenophobia.

It's just like politics you'd find anywhere else.

 

[colbgw02]

It has to be open for a damn good reason. Someone or some group of people is reaping the benefits of the loophole, and I'm not talking about the FMGs themselves. I think people in the ABR, or associated with the ABR's decision-making body, get some kind of reward (personal, political, or financial) for allowing the inflow of FMGs. It could be someone sympathetic to FMGs, is an FMG themselves, etc.

More likely, IMO, the ABR fears backlash similar to that seen in the UK, when their NHS said FMGs had unsatisfactory outcomes and therefore the NHS should make board exams harder to pass. They were immediately accused of racism and xenophobia.

It's just like politics you'd find anywhere else.

To my knowledge, the ABR is either the only or one of very few specialty boards that permits certification through an alternate pathway. So, if you're proposal is true, then why are the overwhelming majority of other specialty boards seemingly unconcerned about these potential charges of racism and xenophobia?

I don't know the real reason why the ABR keeps the alternate pathway open, but the only logical conclusion that I can come to is that they care much more keeping academic radiologists happy than about everyone else. Why? Because the major radiology organizations are run in large part by academic radiologists.

 

[tco]

I'm betting that it comes down to someone, somewhere, making more money than they would if the alternative path were closed. Just a hunch.

 

[rule out normal]

To my knowledge, the ABR is either the only or one of very few specialty boards that permits certification through an alternate pathway. So, if you're proposal is true, then why are the overwhelming majority of other specialty boards seemingly unconcerned about these potential charges of racism and xenophobia?

I bet the other specialty boards did not have such a loophole in the first place, or it affected them to a much lesser degree, or was closed long ago.

Since radiology is now essentially the only specialty remaining with this kind of loophole, a move to close it would bring an extraordinary level of scrutiny and criticism.

 

[colbgw02]

I bet the other specialty boards did not have such a loophole in the first place, or it affected them to a much lesser degree, or was closed long ago.

Since radiology is now essentially the only specialty remaining with this kind of loophole, a move to close it would bring an extraordinary level of scrutiny and criticism.

I have no idea what you're basing this on. The alternate pathway didn't exist until the late part of the 20th century when there was a shortage of radiologists. It stayed open through the boom times of the last decade because 1) jobs were plentiful and 2) traditional pathway radiologists didn't need or care to do unpopular fellowships (at the time, mammo, chest, etc.). There is no longer a shortage of radiologists and jobs are difficult to find. Even historically less popular fellowships are now competitive for traditional pathway radiologists. I see no reason why the ABR would receive any scrutiny if it falls back in line with the rest of the boards in the ABMS. Who is going to complain? IMGs who, were they in any other specialty, would have zero chance of obtaining certification anyway? In fact, it would probably be widely praised by the people that really matter - the ABR's diplomates - if water-cooler talk and online forum posts are any indication.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

I bet the other specialty boards did not have such a loophole in the first place, or it affected them to a much lesser degree, or was closed long ago.

Since radiology is now essentially the only specialty remaining with this kind of loophole, a move to close it would bring an extraordinary level of scrutiny and criticism.

Not to mention, that non-FMGs could claim the same racism and xenophobia in that FMGs are being given preference by not having to complete a residency here. Other specialties don't have this issue, so radiology is not special. As someone said, it's all down to $$$ .

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

I have no idea what you're basing this on. The alternate pathway didn't exist until the late part of the 20th century when there was a shortage of radiologists. It stayed open through the boom times of the last decade because 1) jobs were plentiful and 2) traditional pathway radiologists didn't need or care to do unpopular fellowships (at the time, mammo, chest, etc.). There is no longer a shortage of radiologists and jobs are difficult to find. Even historically less popular fellowships are now competitive for traditional pathway radiologists. I see no reason why the ABR would receive any scrutiny if it falls back in line with the rest of the boards in the ABMS. Who is going to complain? IMGs who, were they in any other specialty, would have zero chance of obtaining certification anyway? In fact, it would probably be widely praised by the people that really matter - the ABR's diplomates - if water-cooler talk and online forum posts are any indication.

Totally agree with you in this case. In fact, this loophole gives preference to FMGs by not having to do a residency. Totally uncool.
Why can't the US implement an *US grad first* match thing like Canada has? Foreigners have NO claim to anything here. No one is owed anything. What is wrong with the system here?

 

[colbgw02]

Totally agree with you in this case. In fact, this loophole gives preference to FMGs by not having to do a residency. Totally uncool.
Why can't the US implement an *US grad first* match thing like Canada has? Foreigners have NO claim to anything here. No one is owed anything. What is wrong with the system here?

Well, to be exact, the ABR says that the IMG must fulfill the training requirements in his/her own nation, but the variance is tremendous. Many of these radiologists are quite good. Others are not, and doing 4 years of fellowship doesn't change that.

I agree with you that it should be the same rules for everyone. If an IMG wants to be a radiologist in the U.S., then participate in the match, do an internship, and do a residency - with all of the baggage that goes along with that - just like everyone else.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Well, to be exact, the ABR says that the IMG must fulfill the training requirements in his/her own nation, but the variance is tremendous. Many of these radiologists are quite good. Others are not, and doing 4 years of fellowship doesn't change that.

I agree with you that it should be the same rules for everyone. If an IMG wants to be a radiologist in the U.S., then participate in the match, do an internship, and do a residency - with all of the baggage that goes along with that - just like everyone else.

Absolutely agreed. I think we definitely need to move first towards an all US grad, regardless of MD/DO designation, match,just like in Canada, where no FMG/IMG is given a spot until all American grads are matched. Then everyone can go for whatever is left. No complaints of xenophobia or racism in Canada and it works quite well. Second, this BS loophole needs to be axed. Just imagine if dermatologists, or anesthesiologists or surgeons from other countries could just come here and do a few fellowships and practice? It would be insane!

There needs to be the same path for all. If you trained abroad, as you say, go through the freaking match, and get a spot or get out.

 

[Substance]

Well, to be exact, the ABR says that the IMG must fulfill the training requirements in his/her own nation, but the variance is tremendous. Many of these radiologists are quite good. Others are not, and doing 4 years of fellowship doesn't change that.

I agree with you that it should be the same rules for everyone. If an IMG wants to be a radiologist in the U.S., then participate in the match, do an internship, and do a residency - with all of the baggage that goes along with that - just like everyone else.

Medical training in other countries, particularly second and third world ones, is extremely variable. For every competent British-trained doctor there are twenty incompetent ones trained in India, Iraq or the Caribbean.

I've met residents who were supposedly attending staff in their home countries. Their incompetence and lack of both insight and intelligence lead me to wonder if they bought fake degrees.

I'd go as far as saying if a foreign citizen wants to be a physician in the US, they should apply to a US medical school and start from scratch.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Medical training in other countries, particularly second and third world ones, is extremely variable. For every competent British-trained doctor there are twenty incompetent ones trained in India, Iraq or the Caribbean.

I've met residents who were supposedly attending staff in their home countries. Their incompetence and lack of both insight and intelligence lead me to wonder if they bought fake degrees.

I'd go as far as saying if a foreign citizen wants to be a physician in the US, they should apply to a US medical school and start from scratch.

There was some dude who "shadowed" at our institution for months, he was foreign. He was supposedly a radiologist in his country. One day he asks me if Radiology is hard. I was like what? Aren't you a radiologist?

I think that we are doing not only our patients a disservice but our physician community one too by
1-limiting seats in medical schools
2-at the same time, allowing thousands of immigrant foreign doctors to do residency here

how does that make sense? Why not increase seats in med schools to mirror the # of residency positions? I always thought it was absolutely senseless to not do this.

 

[Substance]

There was some dude who "shadowed" at our institution for months, he was foreign. He was supposedly a radiologist in his country. One day he asks me if Radiology is hard. I was like what? Aren't you a radiologist?

I think that we are doing not only our patients a disservice but our physician community one too by
1-limiting seats in medical schools
2-at the same time, allowing thousands of immigrant foreign doctors to do residency here

how does that make sense? Why not increase seats in med schools to mirror the # of residency positions? I always thought it was absolutely senseless to not do this.

Did the ***** that hung around your department get one of those fellowships?

The whole problem is that the MD by itself is useless. Residency should be optional, and an MD should be sufficient training for general practice.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Did the ***** that hung around your department get one of those fellowships?

The whole problem is that the MD by itself is useless. Residency should be optional, and an MD should be sufficient training for general practice.

No, he was applying for a residency and luckily did not match. I think for general practice, a 1-2 year residency should be sufficient. For specialties obviously not. But this excessive punishment of endless training, low pay, the match, etc. makes no sense.

There needs to be more people accountable for the system, because it's stupid as it is and it's senseless. Whoever came up with the thought of restricting seats in med schools to american students to allow random, non English speaking foreigners to do residency or fellowship here is completely out of whack and out of tune with reality.

 

[oncall]

The OP is accurate in his assessment.
Radiology is emotionally and financially not a good field at this point in time.
Before people post inaccurate self reported salary survey data, they should look at the real data provided.

PAY
Medicare recently released the actual reimbursement provided to each physician in the US. Please search NY time or WS Journal medicare. The only radiologists making high numbers were those that owned imaging centers and getting technical fees.
Radiologists are nowhere near the top and are below average when you compare it to the other specialties.
This is the best kept secret in medicine. The same doctors who complain that radiologists make too much money are making a multiple of radiologist's salary. As a clinician you can manipulate and upcode your services.

The average doctor spends very little time with their patients. They often can have an extender or resident do the bulk of the work. For 10 minutes time they often bill 45 to 60 minutes of time. They can code based on complexity. YES, it is very common for a internist to make 500K. Most are private.

THE REAL NUMBERS. Radiologists at my hospital had medicare reimbursements of 50-90K on average, with no one getting six figures from the government. Our ED doctors were well into the 100-200K range. We had two internal medicine doctors who had 900k and 450K as their collections from medicare. Plenty of FP and internists who made the same as the radiologists.

Look at the real number of reimbursement. A CXR pays under $10 from medicare. An ultrasound 20-35 dollars. CT 30-55 dollars. Yes a busy radiologist can read 100 a day. How about clinical medicine average new patient visit $120-180, average established patient visit $80-120. Yes, a busy FP or internist can see 30-40 patients a day. Then there is inpatient rounding...once you have the patient admitted, you can do the hi how are you rounds and get about $100 a pop.

One of my parents is a family med doctor who has done well. He makes the same as me. My brother is a surgeon. He works about half the hours and makes a little less (lots of dead time and afternoons off).

SATISFACTION
Clinical doctors control the patients and get all the credit for their care. Most clinical doctors order tests as a replacement for their physical exam. The majority of them will pretend that they in fact have interpreted the images and come to the conclusion/diagnosis. The majority of people think that radiologists are the same as x ray techs.

JOB MARKET
Right now as a medicine or FP doctor you can get a job in any city in the country without much difficulty. As a radiologist, good luck.

CALL
Most doctors have very limited call. Especially with employed status. Radiologists have increased call and coverage in the last 10 years to manage the call other doctors are giving up.
OB and anesthesia are the other people that take call, but most of it is sitting around reading, watching TV, eating, etc.
Radiologists on call are reading for 5-10 places, doing all the surgical procedures for the other doctors who are at home.
Think, thoracentesis, paracentesis percutaneous cholecystostomy, percutaneous abscess drainage, percutaneous drain for diverticulitis, appendix abscess drain, tpa for revascularization of ischemia, chest tubes, lumbar punctures. All the procedures

The majority of the procedures pay much less than for a doctor to give a zpack for a cough/pneumonia.

EMPLOYMENT
The majority of radiologists are forced to be employees because the hospital decides. The majority of clinical doctors who are employees do very little work, have a lot of time off, or take no call.

Anyhow, decide for yourself.

 

[shark2000]

The OP is accurate in his assessment.
Radiology is emotionally and financially not a good field at this point in time.
Before people post inaccurate self reported salary survey data, they should look at the real data provided.

PAY
Medicare recently released the actual reimbursement provided to each physician in the US. Please search NY time or WS Journal medicare. The only radiologists making high numbers were those that owned imaging centers and getting technical fees.
Radiologists are nowhere near the top and are below average when you compare it to the other specialties.
This is the best kept secret in medicine. The same doctors who complain that radiologists make too much money are making a multiple of radiologist's salary. As a clinician you can manipulate and upcode your services.

The average doctor spends very little time with their patients. They often can have an extender or resident do the bulk of the work. For 10 minutes time they often bill 45 to 60 minutes of time. They can code based on complexity. YES, it is very common for a internist to make 500K. Most are private.

THE REAL NUMBERS. Radiologists at my hospital had medicare reimbursements of 50-90K on average, with no one getting six figures from the government. Our ED doctors were well into the 100-200K range. We had two internal medicine doctors who had 900k and 450K as their collections from medicare. Plenty of FP and internists who made the same as the radiologists.

Look at the real number of reimbursement. A CXR pays under $10 from medicare. An ultrasound 20-35 dollars. CT 30-55 dollars. Yes a busy radiologist can read 100 a day. How about clinical medicine average new patient visit $120-180, average established patient visit $80-120. Yes, a busy FP or internist can see 30-40 patients a day. Then there is inpatient rounding...once you have the patient admitted, you can do the hi how are you rounds and get about $100 a pop.

One of my parents is a family med doctor who has done well. He makes the same as me. My brother is a surgeon. He works about half the hours and makes a little less (lots of dead time and afternoons off).

SATISFACTION
Clinical doctors control the patients and get all the credit for their care. Most clinical doctors order tests as a replacement for their physical exam. The majority of them will pretend that they in fact have interpreted the images and come to the conclusion/diagnosis. The majority of people think that radiologists are the same as x ray techs.

JOB MARKET
Right now as a medicine or FP doctor you can get a job in any city in the country without much difficulty. As a radiologist, good luck.

CALL
Most doctors have very limited call. Especially with employed status. Radiologists have increased call and coverage in the last 10 years to manage the call other doctors are giving up.
OB and anesthesia are the other people that take call, but most of it is sitting around reading, watching TV, eating, etc.
Radiologists on call are reading for 5-10 places, doing all the surgical procedures for the other doctors who are at home.
Think, thoracentesis, paracentesis percutaneous cholecystostomy, percutaneous abscess drainage, percutaneous drain for diverticulitis, appendix abscess drain, tpa for revascularization of ischemia, chest tubes, lumbar punctures. All the procedures

The majority of the procedures pay much less than for a doctor to give a zpack for a cough/pneumonia.

EMPLOYMENT
The majority of radiologists are forced to be employees because the hospital decides. The majority of clinical doctors who are employees do very little work, have a lot of time off, or take no call.

Anyhow, decide for yourself.

"OB call is easy and it is very common for an internist to make 500K."

I don't have anything to say.

 

[radman123]

So working stinks would rather hang out at the beach. If you gotta work medicine is not a great place right now and radiology is one of the worst places in medicine right now particularly for those coming out and trending even worse as discussed in multiple threads. Lifestyle, job market, quality of jobs, pay, stability, amount of work/unit time, return on investment 6-7 years of training, geographic flexibilty etc. make this a poor choice. But lets stop beating a dead horse...

I have been out for a while and have no debt and am in good financial shape. Being in such a low demand field really stinks because if I lose my crappy job not sure what will happen next. Not willing to move at this point in my life. I would rather do something where I can be an owner/partner and have career options. Would be ok with much less salary. Even outpatient FM sounds more appealing than radiology to me. Has become a real grind with bad hours and employee conditions, and few options to try something else.

 

[cbtk18]

Lots of trolls up in here. This thread needs to be closed.

By looking at comments, these are the same people that post all day long on Aunt Minnie, and they have started banning them. SDN needs to follow suit.

$500k is average for an internist? How dumb do you think we are?

 

[radman123]

Lots of trolls up in here. This thread needs to be closed.

By looking at comments, these are the same people that post all day long on Aunt Minnie, and they have started banning them. SDN needs to follow suit.

$500k is average for an internist? How dumb do you think we are?

He means that if you look at medicare 2012 data, you will see many internists billing 100s of thousands from medicare. These guys likely make more than the average rad, but on average an internist makes less than those rads in established practices. Maybe not for those coming out.

 

[colbgw02]

Looking at the Medicare billing data as a surrogate for income is incredibly stupid.

 

[radman123]

Bill medicare 500k + private insurance billing - practice overhead= take home income

 

[TUGM]

The OP is accurate in his assessment.
Radiology is emotionally and financially not a good field at this point in time.
Before people post inaccurate self reported salary survey data, they should look at the real data provided.

PAY
Medicare recently released the actual reimbursement provided to each physician in the US. Please search NY time or WS Journal medicare. The only radiologists making high numbers were those that owned imaging centers and getting technical fees.
Radiologists are nowhere near the top and are below average when you compare it to the other specialties.
This is the best kept secret in medicine. The same doctors who complain that radiologists make too much money are making a multiple of radiologist's salary. As a clinician you can manipulate and upcode your services.

The average doctor spends very little time with their patients. They often can have an extender or resident do the bulk of the work. For 10 minutes time they often bill 45 to 60 minutes of time. They can code based on complexity. YES, it is very common for a internist to make 500K. Most are private.

THE REAL NUMBERS. Radiologists at my hospital had medicare reimbursements of 50-90K on average, with no one getting six figures from the government. Our ED doctors were well into the 100-200K range. We had two internal medicine doctors who had 900k and 450K as their collections from medicare. Plenty of FP and internists who made the same as the radiologists.

Look at the real number of reimbursement. A CXR pays under $10 from medicare. An ultrasound 20-35 dollars. CT 30-55 dollars. Yes a busy radiologist can read 100 a day. How about clinical medicine average new patient visit $120-180, average established patient visit $80-120. Yes, a busy FP or internist can see 30-40 patients a day. Then there is inpatient rounding...once you have the patient admitted, you can do the hi how are you rounds and get about $100 a pop.

One of my parents is a family med doctor who has done well. He makes the same as me. My brother is a surgeon. He works about half the hours and makes a little less (lots of dead time and afternoons off).

SATISFACTION
Clinical doctors control the patients and get all the credit for their care. Most clinical doctors order tests as a replacement for their physical exam. The majority of them will pretend that they in fact have interpreted the images and come to the conclusion/diagnosis. The majority of people think that radiologists are the same as x ray techs.

JOB MARKET
Right now as a medicine or FP doctor you can get a job in any city in the country without much difficulty. As a radiologist, good luck.

CALL
Most doctors have very limited call. Especially with employed status. Radiologists have increased call and coverage in the last 10 years to manage the call other doctors are giving up.
OB and anesthesia are the other people that take call, but most of it is sitting around reading, watching TV, eating, etc.
Radiologists on call are reading for 5-10 places, doing all the surgical procedures for the other doctors who are at home.
Think, thoracentesis, paracentesis percutaneous cholecystostomy, percutaneous abscess drainage, percutaneous drain for diverticulitis, appendix abscess drain, tpa for revascularization of ischemia, chest tubes, lumbar punctures. All the procedures

The majority of the procedures pay much less than for a doctor to give a zpack for a cough/pneumonia.

EMPLOYMENT
The majority of radiologists are forced to be employees because the hospital decides. The majority of clinical doctors who are employees do very little work, have a lot of time off, or take no call.

Anyhow, decide for yourself.

This makes zero sense. Sure the job market is bad right now, but some of the things being said are absurd. Don't know many internists who make 500-900K. The medicare reimbursement hardly translates to salary...

 

[radman123]

This makes zero sense. Sure the job market is bad right now, but some of the things being said are absurd. Don't know many internists who make 500-900K. The medicare reimbursement hardly translates to salary...

As I said, medicare billing correlates closely with take home salary. The more you bill the more you take home (minus practice expenses).

 

[Kaputt]

Why is it so acceptable and commonplace to bash radiology? There's a lot of crap in many, many fields but the trolling in radiology forums is far worse than anywhere else. Is it because rads was such a gold mine before? So these jaded people come on here and complain because they were expecting to pull $500k in Manhattan without working nights or weekends? Is it just a matter of perspective?

 

[TUGM]

Why is it so acceptable and commonplace to bash radiology? There's a lot of crap in many, many fields but the trolling in radiology forums is far worse than anywhere else. Is it because rads was such a gold mine before? So these jaded people come on here and complain because they were expecting to pull $500k in Manhattan without working nights or weekends? Is it just a matter of perspective?

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but this might be what happens when people choose a field for the wrong reasons, and their expectations are not met. Take this as a warning, medical students... $_$

Also, awesome emoticon: :troll:

 

[shark2000]

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but this might be what happens when people choose a field for the wrong reasons, and their expectations are not met. Take this as a warning, medical students... $_$

Also, awesome emoticon: :troll:

May be only one or two people with multiple accounts post in here and auntminnie.

The scenario of radiologist versus internist troll has been on auntminnie for almost 4 years. Similar troll is now bleeding into this forum. I bet the poster did not choose family medicine or internist by chance.

 

[colbgw02]

Bill medicare 500k + private insurance billing - practice overhead= take home income

As I said, medicare billing correlates closely with take home salary. The more you bill the more you take home (minus practice expenses).

So, we have a three variable equation, two of the variables are unknown (in reality there are more), and your conclusion is that the known variable 'correlates closely' with the sum. Step up your game, brosef. That's C- trolling.

 

[Substance]

Helicopter beanies should allow one to fly. Why hasn't Google or Elon Musk invented that yet?

 

[shark2000]

So, we have a three variable equation, two of the variables are unknown (in reality there are more), and your conclusion is that the known variable 'correlates closely' with the sum. Step up your game, brosef. That's C- trolling.

4+.

He is not a good troll. I have seen better ones.

 

[rads214]

I think it's pretty easy to understand why radman has had such difficulties finding a job after reading his posts on here.

 

[radman123]

Yes you got me. I am a troll. Things are wonderful out there. Trying to make things even less competitive for the next match. See where you will end up shark if you lose your coastal job. Aint gonna be coastal next time around and if it is you will be working 3rd shift or as an employee grunt without any stability. And I got a job but being in a field without options is a bummer. And, medicare billing has no correlation to to take home income. Yea right. Must be chatting with college students on here.

 

[colbgw02]

You didn't say that it correlates; you said it correlates closely. We really need a moving goalposts emoticon.

 

[circulus vitios]

The average doctor spends very little time with their patients. They often can have an extender or resident do the bulk of the work. For 10 minutes time they often bill 45 to 60 minutes of time. They can code based on complexity. YES, it is very common for a internist to make 500K. Most are private.

2012 MGMA data has the 90th percentile inpatient IM compensation at $364k. Yes, very common.

 

[tco]

Guys, please stop feeding the trolls. If I wanted to go to auntminnie.com, I would.

 

[shark2000]

Yes you got me. I am a troll. Things are wonderful out there. Trying to make things even less competitive for the next match. See where you will end up shark if you lose your coastal job. Aint gonna be coastal next time around and if it is you will be working 3rd shift or as an employee grunt without any stability. And I got a job but being in a field without options is a bummer. And, medicare billing has no correlation to to take home income. Yea right. Must be chatting with college students on here.

I will find a job within 4-5 months somewhere within 100 miles of where I am now, if I lose my current job.

It happened to one of our associates. He didn't lose his job, but he wanted to change his job. His wife found a very good job in her field in another city which is about 1.5 hours away. It was not easy for him, but after looking for a new job for 6 months he found one.

Nobody said that market is good. But seriously, do you want me to believe that all the graduates in East coast or California or west coast move to North Dakota to get a job?

For Medicare billing, if you look into the numbers, two pathologists were among top 10. There were lots of oncologists and opthalmologists high on the list. No spine surgeon or orthopod was high on the list. Do you want me to believe that a spine surgeon makes (much) less than an oncologist or an ophtho?

 

[DermViser]

It has to be open for a damn good reason. Someone or some group of people is reaping the benefits of the loophole, and I'm not talking about the FMGs themselves. I think people in the ABR, or associated with the ABR's decision-making body, get some kind of reward (personal, political, or financial) for allowing the inflow of FMGs. It could be someone sympathetic to FMGs, is an FMG themselves, etc.

More likely, IMO, the ABR fears backlash similar to that seen in the UK, when their NHS said FMGs had unsatisfactory outcomes and therefore the NHS should make board exams harder to pass. They were immediately accused of racism and xenophobia.

It's just like politics you'd find anywhere else.

Except other specialties don't do this loophole and never had this loophole.

 

[DermViser]

Why is it so acceptable and commonplace to bash radiology? There's a lot of crap in many, many fields but the trolling in radiology forums is far worse than anywhere else. Is it because rads was such a gold mine before? So these jaded people come on here and complain because they were expecting to pull $500k in Manhattan without working nights or weekends? Is it just a matter of perspective?

Maybe bc at one time quite recently this was very much the case. Esp. those who went in when things were one way, and now it's different coming out.

 

[DermViser]

The OP is accurate in his assessment.
Radiology is emotionally and financially not a good field at this point in time.
Before people post inaccurate self reported salary survey data, they should look at the real data provided.

PAY
Medicare recently released the actual reimbursement provided to each physician in the US. Please search NY time or WS Journal medicare. The only radiologists making high numbers were those that owned imaging centers and getting technical fees.
Radiologists are nowhere near the top and are below average when you compare it to the other specialties.
This is the best kept secret in medicine. The same doctors who complain that radiologists make too much money are making a multiple of radiologist's salary. As a clinician you can manipulate and upcode your services.

The average doctor spends very little time with their patients. They often can have an extender or resident do the bulk of the work. For 10 minutes time they often bill 45 to 60 minutes of time. They can code based on complexity. YES, it is very common for a internist to make 500K. Most are private.

THE REAL NUMBERS. Radiologists at my hospital had medicare reimbursements of 50-90K on average, with no one getting six figures from the government. Our ED doctors were well into the 100-200K range. We had two internal medicine doctors who had 900k and 450K as their collections from medicare. Plenty of FP and internists who made the same as the radiologists.

Look at the real number of reimbursement. A CXR pays under $10 from medicare. An ultrasound 20-35 dollars. CT 30-55 dollars. Yes a busy radiologist can read 100 a day. How about clinical medicine average new patient visit $120-180, average established patient visit $80-120. Yes, a busy FP or internist can see 30-40 patients a day. Then there is inpatient rounding...once you have the patient admitted, you can do the hi how are you rounds and get about $100 a pop.

One of my parents is a family med doctor who has done well. He makes the same as me. My brother is a surgeon. He works about half the hours and makes a little less (lots of dead time and afternoons off).

SATISFACTION
Clinical doctors control the patients and get all the credit for their care. Most clinical doctors order tests as a replacement for their physical exam. The majority of them will pretend that they in fact have interpreted the images and come to the conclusion/diagnosis. The majority of people think that radiologists are the same as x ray techs.

JOB MARKET
Right now as a medicine or FP doctor you can get a job in any city in the country without much difficulty. As a radiologist, good luck.

CALL
Most doctors have very limited call. Especially with employed status. Radiologists have increased call and coverage in the last 10 years to manage the call other doctors are giving up.
OB and anesthesia are the other people that take call, but most of it is sitting around reading, watching TV, eating, etc.
Radiologists on call are reading for 5-10 places, doing all the surgical procedures for the other doctors who are at home.
Think, thoracentesis, paracentesis percutaneous cholecystostomy, percutaneous abscess drainage, percutaneous drain for diverticulitis, appendix abscess drain, tpa for revascularization of ischemia, chest tubes, lumbar punctures. All the procedures

The majority of the procedures pay much less than for a doctor to give a zpack for a cough/pneumonia.

EMPLOYMENT
The majority of radiologists are forced to be employees because the hospital decides. The majority of clinical doctors who are employees do very little work, have a lot of time off, or take no call.

Anyhow, decide for yourself.

You must be seriously trolling. 10 posts, go figure. Try harder.

 

[DermViser]

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but this might be what happens when people choose a field for the wrong reasons, and their expectations are not met. Take this as a warning, medical students... $_$

Also, awesome emoticon: :troll:

You'd be very pissed too if the salary characteristics going into a residency were one way, and then were completely different when you graduated from residency. That's not an unreasonable expectation.

Most people who go into Radiology liked it bc it combined a lot of things: 1) very visually-oriented field, 2) ridiculously high salary, 3) great lifestyle, 4) not having to deal with clinical bs (i.e. IM or Gen Surgery) as well as much less documentation bs. Those high caliber applicants might have chosen something else, if they knew then that they might not have a job waiting for them.

 

[Substance]

The OP is accurate in his assessment.
Radiology is emotionally and financially not a good field at this point in time.
Before people post inaccurate self reported salary survey data, they should look at the real data provided.

PAY
Medicare recently released the actual reimbursement provided to each physician in the US. Please search NY time or WS Journal medicare. The only radiologists making high numbers were those that owned imaging centers and getting technical fees.
Radiologists are nowhere near the top and are below average when you compare it to the other specialties.
This is the best kept secret in medicine. The same doctors who complain that radiologists make too much money are making a multiple of radiologist's salary. As a clinician you can manipulate and upcode your services.

The average doctor spends very little time with their patients. They often can have an extender or resident do the bulk of the work. For 10 minutes time they often bill 45 to 60 minutes of time. They can code based on complexity. YES, it is very common for a internist to make 500K. Most are private.

THE REAL NUMBERS. Radiologists at my hospital had medicare reimbursements of 50-90K on average, with no one getting six figures from the government. Our ED doctors were well into the 100-200K range. We had two internal medicine doctors who had 900k and 450K as their collections from medicare. Plenty of FP and internists who made the same as the radiologists.

Look at the real number of reimbursement. A CXR pays under $10 from medicare. An ultrasound 20-35 dollars. CT 30-55 dollars. Yes a busy radiologist can read 100 a day. How about clinical medicine average new patient visit $120-180, average established patient visit $80-120. Yes, a busy FP or internist can see 30-40 patients a day. Then there is inpatient rounding...once you have the patient admitted, you can do the hi how are you rounds and get about $100 a pop.

One of my parents is a family med doctor who has done well. He makes the same as me. My brother is a surgeon. He works about half the hours and makes a little less (lots of dead time and afternoons off).

SATISFACTION
Clinical doctors control the patients and get all the credit for their care. Most clinical doctors order tests as a replacement for their physical exam. The majority of them will pretend that they in fact have interpreted the images and come to the conclusion/diagnosis. The majority of people think that radiologists are the same as x ray techs.

JOB MARKET
Right now as a medicine or FP doctor you can get a job in any city in the country without much difficulty. As a radiologist, good luck.

CALL
Most doctors have very limited call. Especially with employed status. Radiologists have increased call and coverage in the last 10 years to manage the call other doctors are giving up.
OB and anesthesia are the other people that take call, but most of it is sitting around reading, watching TV, eating, etc.
Radiologists on call are reading for 5-10 places, doing all the surgical procedures for the other doctors who are at home.
Think, thoracentesis, paracentesis percutaneous cholecystostomy, percutaneous abscess drainage, percutaneous drain for diverticulitis, appendix abscess drain, tpa for revascularization of ischemia, chest tubes, lumbar punctures. All the procedures

The majority of the procedures pay much less than for a doctor to give a zpack for a cough/pneumonia.

EMPLOYMENT
The majority of radiologists are forced to be employees because the hospital decides. The majority of clinical doctors who are employees do very little work, have a lot of time off, or take no call.

Anyhow, decide for yourself.

None of what you say is relevant UNLESS you SPECIFICALLY INDICATE EXACTLY where these magical clinical staff are making bank, and where these downtrodden radiologists are making 90k.

You have ten posts. Trolling is rampant. FMGs are notorious for coming on here and bashing radiology in the hope that their much more qualified competition will be scared away.

In terms of trolling advice: you're doing it all wrong. Instead of trying to get strong medical students to become hospitalists, which everyone knows is the fastest path to burnout since EM, you should try to convince them to become dermatologists, radiation oncologists, or plastic surgeons. Those fields have security and make a lot of money, and few people will argue with you on them being good jobs. But hospitalist? Family doc? OBSTETRICS? Come on. Weak trolling.

 

[radman123]

I would much rather have a job where I want to live in a decent field than struggle to find a job and move 1000 miles for a field I like. Thats just me. Plus work is work. Been doing radiology for many years and it is a job. Hard to believe for medical students that the luster and excitement will fade and become a mundane burden at some point in the future.

 

[Puff-of-Snow Sign]

The Medicare data release did more to confuse the issue of physician compensation than it shed light on the issue.

"Highest paid" physician was the chief of lab path at Mayo, who "raked in" 7 figs from Medicare. (Mayo bills for labs under his name.) Internists who "oversee" armies of mid-levels saw their "compensation" grossly inflated. Guess how their billing works...?

How do you like the Medicare numbers now?

 

[shark2000]

DNFTT

 

[cbtk18]

I would much rather have a job where I want to live in a decent field than struggle to find a job and move 1000 miles for a field I like. Thats just me. Plus work is work. Been doing radiology for many years and it is a job. Hard to believe for medical students that the luster and excitement will fade and become a mundane burden at some point in the future.

Someone needs to ban this dingus.

"Been doing radiology for many years... " Gonna go out on a limb here and say that English is probably not your first language. What a joke.

Is this the kind of crap SDN puts up with these days?

 

[Puff-of-Snow Sign]

Someone needs to ban this dingus.

"Been doing radiology for many years... " Gonna go out on a limb here and say that English is not your first language. What a joke.

Is this the kind of crap SDN puts up with these days?

He prob jumped ship from AM, because they finally started banning people for this crap.

 

[radman123]

Someone needs to ban this dingus.

"Been doing radiology for many years... " Gonna go out on a limb here and say that English is probably not your first language. What a joke.

Is this the kind of crap SDN puts up with these days?

First off if you do not like my opinion then ignore. No need for profanity.

Second, you should not let your frustrations out on me. I did not make you go into radiology nor was I responsible for your taking out 250k in loans. It will be a tough 6 (maybe 7) years of training knowing that things may not turn around.