Got to bone up on my training- Pre Hospital Thoracotomy

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drccw

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All right, I guess I'm not as well trained as I thought I was....

Maybe I need to rotate through London or something....

No wonder training in England is so long...

I would argue an emergency thoracotomy is probably within the scope of practice of an EM trained physician... I guess in England the anaesthesists perform them as well. And they don't even have CRNAs to worry about there....

drccw

RESULTS:
Overall, 71 patients met inclusion criteria. Thirteen patients (18%) survived to hospital discharge. Neurologic outcome was good in 11 patients and poor in 2. Presenting cardiac rhythm was asystole in four patients, pulseless electrical activity in five, and unrecorded in the remaining four. All survivors had cardiac tamponade. The medical team was present at the time of cardiac arrest for six survivors (good neurologic outcome): arrived in the first 5 minutes after arrest in three patients (all good neurologic outcome), arrived 5 minutes to 10 minutes after arrest in two patients (one poor neurologic outcome), and in one patient (poor neurologic outcome) the period was unknown. Of the survivors, seven thoracotomies were performed by emergency physicians and six by anesthesiologists.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131854
 
In the ED, the only people who should get thoracotomy are those where there is immediate CT surgery available. That is the bare minimum.

Ironically, in the community, places where there are CT surgeons available very often are not trauma centers or don't see such trauma.

There's been a big push from EM and surgery organizations to downplay ED thoracotomy. Do they even mention it in ATLS anymore? I shall honestly tell you that I've never done one, and I am OK with that.
 
One of my more memorable events in residency was a bronch (in a far away location) that turned into bilateral pneumo's. Talk about quick diagnosis and treatment by my attending. Patient blue, no breath sounds, needle decompression followed by chest tube... and then another on the other side. Trauma surgeons were like.... :eyebrow::eyebrow:

End result... pink patient. 🙂

Wow... Super sweet to have even witnessed that event... And so very proud that anesthesia took care of it before suegery even got there. He saved her life that day.
 
In the ED, the only people who should get thoracotomy are those where there is immediate CT surgery available. That is the bare minimum.

Ironically, in the community, places where there are CT surgeons available very often are not trauma centers or don't see such trauma.

There's been a big push from EM and surgery organizations to downplay ED thoracotomy. Do they even mention it in ATLS anymore? I shall honestly tell you that I've never done one, and I am OK with that.

I recert'd ATLS last week. It is mentioned, but only in the context of 'some other qualified person may do this' and it's not part of the ATLS skill set.

The procedures taught were surgical airways, needle pericardiocentesis, needle thoracostomy, chest tubes, and diagnostic peritoneal lavage.

I saw a DPL once, as a pre-med hanging out in an ER in the mid 90s. The instructors swear people still do them, sometimes.

ED thoracotomy, heh, not by me.
 
One of my more memorable events in residency was a bronch (in a far away location) that turned into bilateral pneumo's. Talk about quick diagnosis and treatment by my attending. Patient blue, no breath sounds, needle decompression followed by chest tube... and then another on the other side. Trauma surgeons were like.... :eyebrow::eyebrow:

End result... pink patient. 🙂

Wow... Super sweet to have even witnessed that event... And so very proud that anesthesia took care of it before suegery even got there. He saved her life that day.

Once again an Anesthesiologist to the surgeon's rescue!!
 
I recert'd ATLS last week. It is mentioned, but only in the context of 'some other qualified person may do this' and it's not part of the ATLS skill set.

The procedures taught were surgical airways, needle pericardiocentesis, needle thoracostomy, chest tubes, and diagnostic peritoneal lavage.

I saw a DPL once, as a pre-med hanging out in an ER in the mid 90s. The instructors swear people still do them, sometimes.

ED thoracotomy, heh, not by me.

I know that in ACGME case log, there are options for chest tube placement, needle thoracentesis, etc so some residents must have done some of them...How do you get even started for ATLS certification??
 
I know that in ACGME case log, there are options for chest tube placement, needle thoracentesis, etc so some residents must have done some of them...How do you get even started for ATLS certification??

I did maybe 5 or 10 chest tubes as a CA2 doing a trauma ICU rotation. No surgical airways or needles into the chest. No DPLs. 🙂


ATLS is just a 2 1/2 day course. You sign up, pay your money, and go. About 1/2 Powerpoint, 1/2 skill stations. After an easy written test most of us could pass cold and a short practical exam, you're certified and 19.5 category 1 CME credits richer. The course was free for me (Navy facility), and I took the class because they told me to. But it's a good course.
 
In the ED, the only people who should get thoracotomy are those where there is immediate CT surgery available. That is the bare minimum.

I know of plenty (all I have met) of trauma surgeons who would disagree...I too disagree.

Are you saying that if there was a stab wound to the left chest with a blood/clot-filled pericardium on UTS that you would not open the chest and pull out the clot if the patient arrests in front of you just because there was no CT surgeon available?

That makes no sense.

However, I do agree that ED thoracotomy is being downplayed and probably should be.

HH
 
I know of plenty (all I have met) of trauma surgeons who would disagree...I too disagree.

Are you saying that if there was a stab wound to the left chest with a blood/clot-filled pericardium on UTS that you would not open the chest and pull out the clot if the patient arrests in front of you just because there was no CT surgeon available?

That makes no sense.

However, I do agree that ED thoracotomy is being downplayed and probably should be.

HH

Even through your turgid prose, I shall respond to your post. First, you really know "plenty" of trauma surgeons, and you have spoken with all of them about this specific topic? And all written sources I've seen state a "proper" indication is having surgery available immediately. Now, since you advocate not reading any books, but discarding the books and "making your own opinions" (and, if you want me to remind you, I would show you the posts where you did this), you make a disingenuous statement that "that makes no sense".

You're maybe speaking of residents on trauma - while you were in residency. Or, even if not, if you're somewhere with dedicated trauma surgeons, then you're at a trauma center. That eliminates most hospitals in the US.

As you are prone to nitpick, if not "CT surgeon", how about "surgeon well-versed and comfortable operating on the chest"? You make it sound so simple - a pericardial tamponade. Sure, I can cut the chest, and cut a window - but what about the cause, like a ventricular laceration, or coronary artery injury? What about other vessels lacerated, causing a hemothorax? What can I do with that? I'll give you a hint - not much. But, I do it - and I don't have CT on call, since I am in the community, or, if I do, they're not in-house. What is the general surgeon going to say when I tell them I opened the chest? What if the CT surgeon hasn't done trauma since they were a resident? They're going to have kittens.

When I was a resident, our division chief told a story of when she was moonlighting as a resident, and she cracked a chest, and cross-clamped the aorta, and, then...then what? She had nowhere to go. That's the common-sense answer that you can't understand. What do you do with the open chest after you've opened it? EM docs don't close it, and good luck with getting an ambulance to transfer a patient with an open chest to the trauma center.

Another case - one attending when I was a resident (who is now chair of one of the "bigger name" EM departments) was on when a patient came into the ED, as a reported GSW, but they couldn't figure out why the guy was out, until, finally (more or less), a tiny hole just posterior to the axilla was noted. It was called as a trauma, so surgery was there. They decided to crack the chest, and, what did they find? The PA was completely obliterated. There was nothing left to put back together.

If I cracked the chest in the community, and found a possibly repairable injury to the cardiac vasculature, and nobody to take that to the OR, I would be up the creek.
 
Even through your turgid prose, I shall respond to your post. First, you really know "plenty" of trauma surgeons, and you have spoken with all of them about this specific topic? And all written sources I've seen state a "proper" indication is having surgery available immediately. Now, since you advocate not reading any books, but discarding the books and "making your own opinions" (and, if you want me to remind you, I would show you the posts where you did this), you make a disingenuous statement that "that makes no sense".

You're maybe speaking of residents on trauma - while you were in residency. Or, even if not, if you're somewhere with dedicated trauma surgeons, then you're at a trauma center. That eliminates most hospitals in the US.

As you are prone to nitpick, if not "CT surgeon", how about "surgeon well-versed and comfortable operating on the chest"? You make it sound so simple - a pericardial tamponade. Sure, I can cut the chest, and cut a window - but what about the cause, like a ventricular laceration, or coronary artery injury? What about other vessels lacerated, causing a hemothorax? What can I do with that? I'll give you a hint - not much. But, I do it - and I don't have CT on call, since I am in the community, or, if I do, they're not in-house. What is the general surgeon going to say when I tell them I opened the chest? What if the CT surgeon hasn't done trauma since they were a resident? They're going to have kittens.

When I was a resident, our division chief told a story of when she was moonlighting as a resident, and she cracked a chest, and cross-clamped the aorta, and, then...then what? She had nowhere to go. That's the common-sense answer that you can't understand. What do you do with the open chest after you've opened it? EM docs don't close it, and good luck with getting an ambulance to transfer a patient with an open chest to the trauma center.

Another case - one attending when I was a resident (who is now chair of one of the "bigger name" EM departments) was on when a patient came into the ED, as a reported GSW, but they couldn't figure out why the guy was out, until, finally (more or less), a tiny hole just posterior to the axilla was noted. It was called as a trauma, so surgery was there. They decided to crack the chest, and, what did they find? The PA was completely obliterated. There was nothing left to put back together.

If I cracked the chest in the community, and found a possibly repairable injury to the cardiac vasculature, and nobody to take that to the OR, I would be up the creek.

Turgid? I have been called worse. 😀 (I know how much you like those smiles).

(not sure why my post resulted in such personal attacks...)

Although I doubt this discussion belongs in the anesthesiology forum (feel free to start a new thread in EM or GSx), I will continue it for a few more posts. {apologies to the OP}

1. Don't know what to say about some general surgeon having kittens.

2. Your anecdotes from residency aren't worth that much. If anecdotes are enough, please let me know. I'd be happy to post anecdotes of successful ED thorocotomies (from only the last 6 or so years) performed without GSx immediately available (one of whom survived in the ED for >1h before transfer to the OR...discharged neurologically intact...admittedly, arrest was probably caused by tension PTX more than the minor vascular injuries and hemothorax and may have been resuscitated by just a chest tube).

3. Just regurgitating Rosen's or Tintinalli's or - worse yet! - ATLS isn't proof or even reason for not opening the pericardium in the case I presented.

4. If you are not comfortable opening the chest in the situation I described, then don't do it...but I will maintain that is a sad example of EM.

5. In the situation I described (stab wound to the left chest with clot in the pericardium and arrest in front of you) and even in the cases you presented (PA destruction, coronary artery laceration, LV lac (can be temporized in the ED!), I would argue there is no reason to not open the chest. If you don't, the patient is dead. If you do, the patient is still likely to die. However, if you do, and you find an injury repairable - by a surgeon or temporized yourself - that could be a hell of a save (and there is NO downside). Are you honestly telling me that you would just watch some guy with known stab wound to the left chest and clot in the pericardium die because you are scared of kittens? Scared of being "up a creek"? You are going to tell a young wife that you didn't want to cut her now dead husbands chest because there was not a CT surgeon around?

HH
 
You just don't get it. As stated above, ATLS is getting away from the ED thoracotomy, and that is the standard for people that are not surgeons.

Sure, the value of anecdote is incremental - but so is your milquetoast example of the young wife whose husband is now dead. Can that be any more white and middle class, and, statistically, less likely to be the victim of penetrating chest trauma?

I am guessing you are not in a community shop. And not performing ED thoracotomy is a sad example of EM? If you believe that, then you are out of touch with what the people in charge of our specialty (and others) posit. I don't understand (honestly) your antipathy towards anything written, which you call "regurgitating". So, what if you formulate your own ideas? What if they differ? On what do you base them? Because that is what you conclude? Remember that expert opinion is the weakest form of evidence, but it's still the step above your anecdote. If you say "I crack the chest of everyone who comes in traumatic arrest, and I am at a place where this is frequent, and it is before the surgeons get there", that is going to raise eyebrows for several reasons. Likewise, if you say that, when a medical code comes in, and the patient shows a nonperfusing bradyarrythmia, and you say, "I'm not going to order epi, because ACLS is just regurgitating", what are you then going to do? That sounds like you are being contrary for its own sake. And who does that benefit?

Medicine is not coming up with your own theories after chucking out the book. However, that is what you exactly recommend. I mean, it's like saying you don't use the toilet or bathroom - what do you do then when you need to wash or you "gotta go"? You seem to think that your anecdote is greater than expert opinion and retrospective studies that do not support ED thoracotomy. You mention your anecdote, but dismiss mine. Doesn't that smack of inequality?

As for "personal attacks" - huh? Nitpick? Turgid prose? Are you really that much of a wilting lily?
 
I've been on the resuscitating/anesthetizing end of a couple "ed" thoracotomies, both in a hospital and in an austere setting. Outcomes always poor, selection wasn't always great, however I say that with the benefit of hindsight.

Chest tubes are a lot of fun, I think they are easier to place than central lines. That's a skill an anesthesiologist should try to be comfortable with. Nice to be able to take care you your own complications when you drop a lung 🙂
 
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