GPA Fairness

[nycguy1]

Is it fair that a students' high school work (college classes taken) is considered in the science GPA calculations?? It seems really wrong.

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[toska]

I totally agree. I am benefiting from this (8 As in community college classes, some I took when I was 14 years old (!?))-and it still doesn't make any sense to me. I assume schools will sort of take it into account though.

 

[jm192]

Why?

Typically speaking, if you're taking college classes in high school, you're a really smart/motivated student.

And what are you taking in high school? We had like the equivalent of English 1, Spanish 1, and Chem 107 (Which doesn't count as Gen Chem 1). Maybe a math class?

You aren't stealing A's in Organic chem, upper level Bio, etc in high school. It's typically very basic classes that you're going to get an A in regardless.

 

[lmn]

What about people who do 2 years CC and transfer to a university? Should those 2 years not count? Med schools have effective equalizers for things like this including how particular schools gpa's compare to others, as well as the overarching MCAT. If you have a great MCAT and strong gpa's at your university and CC, what is wrong with that? You are obviously a strong student.

 

[phunky]

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[toska]

For me, I had the option to take classes that would count for some of my high school requirements for free at a community college. This allowed my schedule to be configured so that I could take more AP classes that I was interested in. It worked out for me because the community college classes were easier than my high school classes so I got As...but I can imagine cases where a gung-ho high-schooler took on more than they could handle and got poor grades. I don't think these students should necessarily be at a disadvantage due to classes they took at ages 14-15 when they had no idea it would impact their medical school application (they may not have even considered medical school at that point). I just found out about this policy a month ago, it doesn't seem like a lot of people are aware of it.

 

[ace12345]

You're overrating this importance of this, I think. Yes these students might come out with stellar GPAs, but this is also why so much weight is placed upon the MCAT as well. A 3.9 and 27 MCAT is going to cut down your options massively (I know many students with incredible GPAs that did only okay on the MCAT and did not garner an acceptance).

However if the same student can pull down 35+ MCAT, obviously there is something there and they are not just working the GPA system.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

My experience seems to be that it is much more common for high schoolers to have Bs and Cs in college classes they really didn't care about, then have to make up for those grades when they enter a university.
That is to say, it is more common to fail than excel as a 15 year old in a college class.

 

[kyamh]

My experience seems to be that it is much more common for high schoolers to have Bs and Cs in college classes they really didn't care about, then have to make up for those grades when they enter a university.
That is to say, it is more common to fail than excel as a 15 year old in a college class.

The two most popular CC classes to take at my high school were Multivariable Calculus and Cake Decorating. Students got A's in both, but for very different reasons

 

[tantacles]

Is it fair that a students' high school work (college classes taken) is considered in the science GPA calculations?? It seems really wrong.

Several years ago, I asked my pre-med adviser a question very similar to this. Her advice was that I "can it and get back to work."

Now, I'm not telling you that the use of college classes from high school in your AMCAS is fair. I wouldn't do that. I would, however, suggest that you focus on the pieces of your application that you have the power to modify, like your college GPA.

 

[heartsink]

At my school (and maybe a lot of others?) an A- is a 3.5. I don't have a lot of comparison to gauge how normal this is but it can be difficult to get a high gpa out of science classes here when you're up against a curve of other very determined premeds. My assumption is they take grade deflation into account for things like this

 

[Lamel]

It is pretty stupid OP, I agree. Some people take courses in HS to have an advantage in college and be ahead in terms of credit, but those courses can obviously be hard for someone who is only 14; getting a B at that time in those courses would seem like a great accomplishment, but it sort of comes back to bite you in the butt for medical school admissions.

The difference between a student in high school and a student in college is vast. Counting courses taken during high school years is a bit unfair, as many students at the time have Bs and Cs, but get there act together in college (I am an example here). Either way, now those 20+ credits of a 3.2 will drop my GPA hard.

It is even sillier when those courses are literally high school courses, but the college agrees to give credit to you. Now the GPA is pretty much factoring in a high school class.

I agree nothing can be done at this point, and you must keep working to improve it, but this seems like a pretty ridiculous oversight by AMCAS.

 

[mizzu]

I took a ton of college classes in high school and was told those grades wouldn't stay with me. So much for that.

Medical schools can see which classes you took in high school though.

You didn't take them AT at college.

I got bio/chem/calc series/physics done in high school and most counted (AP didn't for many schools) but they overridden it when I said I would essentially take the class in which I am TAing in.

 

[Goro]

It's a college class. And your problem is....?

Is it fair that a students' high school work (college classes taken) is considered in the science GPA calculations?? It seems really wrong.

 

[allantois]

I used to volunteer at my high school guidance department. My high school was 4 miles away from a university and a community college and a lot of students were dually enrolled there. I remember how guidance counselors would get upset and frustrated with parents who pushed their students to take classes there because they knew that some of the students weren't ready for a college course and always warned parents that the record of their child taking a class there would forever stay in their college transcript.

 

[snowflakes]

I got dual credit from a local CC for two courses I took in high school. They gave me a small (.01) GPA boost for both cGPA and sGPA. I did think it was odd that it was calculated into my total GPAs. Maybe AMCAS should include GPAs broken down by institution as well as by year.

 

[phunky]

.

 

[kyamh]

I took them AT a national research university. I was the only high school student in my classes.

That was your choice. You thought you were ready to take college classes and maybe you were not. Some students take on a heavy course load in college and realize they aren't up to the challenge. In both cases the GPA suffers and the student is responsible. Even if you were 14 at the time (more likely you were 17) then you still deserve the repercussions - if you're playing an adult game then expect to be treated as an adult.

Also....do a few college courses really affect your GPA that severely? Who cares if you have a 3.76 or a 3.73?

 

[nycguy1]

That was your choice. You thought you were ready to take college classes and maybe you were not. Some students take on a heavy course load in college and realize they aren't up to the challenge. In both cases the GPA suffers and the student is responsible. Even if you were 14 at the time (more likely you were 17) then you still deserve the repercussions - if you're playing an adult game then expect to be treated as an adult.

Also....do a few college courses really affect your GPA that severely? Who cares if you have a 3.76 or a 3.73?

In the high schoolers defense, I'm not sure they're thinking of graduate school at such a young age, at least not seriously. Also, often times there are programs that students at certain level are involuntarily thrown in. In college its obvious that the courses you're taking will affect your GPA and, thus, your chances of being admitted to graduate school. In high school it isn't so obvious and shouldn't be expected. One is more worried about gaining admission to college. It seems counterintuitive for medical schools to consider such courses in their decisions, or GPA calculation at a minimum, without knowing the scope and nature in which the courses were taken. For example sometimes there are dual enrollment courses in high schools that result in transcripts from an affiliated college. Finally, a 14 or 17 y/o student should not be held responsible for missing the mark while exploring higher levels of academia while in high school. Considering course work completed in high school is the same as considering the students' high school GPA and SAT scores.

 

[nycguy1]

Also remember that actual college courses taken in HS (not AP) should be reported on the HS line in the GPA calculation. med schools will see what is a HS taken course over an actual full time college freshman

Understood. But many schools have cutoff GPA's and these hs courses are factored in to the GPA that determines if you make the cutoff.

 

[mrh125]

Is it fair that a students' high school work (college classes taken) is considered in the science GPA calculations?? It seems really wrong.

Not really, but there are many aspects about the application process that are totally unfair and illogical. Nothing to do but roll with it.

 

[InvalidUsername]

Also....do a few college courses really affect your GPA that severely? Who cares if you have a 3.76 or a 3.73?

You might be surprised. I got a C in AP World Civ 2 in high school and my GPA is ~0.16 points from where I would be if I'd gotten an A instead.

 

[23premes]

I got straight As in over 10 college courses taken in HS. No one forced you to take these courses. Why should thy not help my GPA. If you at 14, wanna take college courses, why should you be held to a lower standard.

 

[Aerus]

You might be surprised. I got a C in AP World Civ 2 in high school and my GPA is ~0.16 points from where I would be if I'd gotten an A instead.

How did AP World affect your college GPA?


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[InvalidUsername]

How did AP World affect your college GPA?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

I took it for dual enrollment and my grade for the class stays on my college transcript.

 

[ichor]

Why?

Typically speaking, if you're taking college classes in high school, you're a really smart/motivated student.

And what are you taking in high school? We had like the equivalent of English 1, Spanish 1, and Chem 107 (Which doesn't count as Gen Chem 1). Maybe a math class?

You aren't stealing A's in Organic chem, upper level Bio, etc in high school. It's typically very basic classes that you're going to get an A in regardless.

Not saying I necessarily disagree but one could easily have also been a very smart individual who simply focused their motivations in other academic pursuits in HS...and simply have skipped over/passed out of those easy intro classes without the GPA booster from 'em.

 

[jm192]

Not saying I necessarily disagree but one could easily have also been a very smart individual who simply focused their motivations in other academic pursuits in HS...and simply have skipped over/passed out of those easy intro classes without the GPA booster from 'em.

But, again, what classes are we talking about?

English 1, Spanish 1, Baby Gen Chem (which doesn't fill the pre-req).

There are typically classes you're going to get in A in anyways, even if you take it at college.
I appreciate that it's nice to start off with another 4-5 A's.

But if you're struggling to get A's in English 100, you're going to struggle to get A's in your science courses. And those 4-5 A's aren't going to be the saving grace of your GPA.

 

[shiftingmirage]

I don't think these students should necessarily be at a disadvantage due to classes they took at ages 14-15 when they had no idea it would impact their medical school application (they may not have even considered medical school at that point).

I think it's fairly ridiculous they let kids take college classes at 14. Maybe 16-17, but 14 is ridiculous.

 

[moisne]

I took them AT a national research university. I was the only high school student in my classes.

Should've have counted if you enrolled AT the university. In fact, it is out of their control and they HAVE to count it.

 

[Lamel]

It's a college class. And your problem is....?

Nearly all of mine are actually high school classes for which we got credit, but the curriculum was from high school, and taught in a high school setting, by high school teachers.

And if they really are college courses, are adcoms more lenient on the 14 year old? Clearly you know there is a difference in development from freshman year of high school to freshman year of college.

That was your choice. You thought you were ready to take college classes and maybe you were not. Some students take on a heavy course load in college and realize they aren't up to the challenge. In both cases the GPA suffers and the student is responsible. Even if you were 14 at the time (more likely you were 17) then you still deserve the repercussions - if you're playing an adult game then expect to be treated as an adult.

Also....do a few college courses really affect your GPA that severely? Who cares if you have a 3.76 or a 3.73?

Ha, okay. Motivation for taking those classes in high school was to gain some extra college credit, often without any idea that medical school is the goal. If we were really "playing the adult game" then everyone would be gunning to get As in those courses in high school so our GPAs don't get affected come medical school admission time. I just don't see why they need to be factored in to cumulative GPA. If medical schools are so curious, make us report them, fine, but then making you calculate it into your cumulative GPA can be a huge detriment. It is a numbers game after all, and schools are often stats hungry.

And yes, they can cause some damage. Think 5-6 classes at 20 credits of a 3.0 (B) average in high school. That's a semester. Either way, I don't know how they are actually perceived by adcoms. There can often be a stark difference between high school performance and college performance for the same student.

My main opinion on the matter is that it really shouldn't matter, as maybe adcoms realize that a 3.2 or something is a pretty impressive college GPA for a high school student. Just do what you can to improve your GPA, as nothing really can be done about it. It really just goes to show that the entire application process has illogical factors thrown about.

 

[Goro]

Yes. I ignore AP coursework anyway.

Nearly all of mine are actually high school classes for which we got credit, but the curriculum was from high school, and taught in a high school setting, by high school teachers.

And if they really are college courses, are adcoms more lenient on the 14 year old? Clearly you know there is a difference in development from freshman year of high school to freshman year of college.

One semester doth not a transcript make.

My main opinion on the matter is that it really shouldn't matter, as maybe adcoms realize that a 3.2 or something is a pretty impressive college GPA for a high school student. Just do what you can to improve your GPA, as nothing really can be done about it. It really just goes to show that the entire application process has illogical factors thrown about.

 

[Heplayer92]

I think the issue isn't the fact that they count...but being told that they would not count =P I'm in the same boat OP XD

 

[Lamel]

One semester doth not a transcript make.

True, it's best to focus on improving the overall transcript.

 

[PanRoasted]

One semester doth not a transcript make.

This is a little misleading, given the way that averages work and how competitive US allo schools are. Sure, one semester/year of college courses in high school won't make or break your transcript as a whole, but it can really affect your GPA by a lot. For example, without any of my high school college credits, my undergrad GPA would be around a 3.8. With the high school credits, I have a 3.6 or so. This included a few C/C+s, and a couple B/B-s. The difference is really quite vast, and I'm positive I was screened/looked unfavorably upon from some places because of it. I also was not nearly the same student senior year of high school compared to freshman year of college, which made the GPA drop sting that much more.

 

[Spitphire]

I don't think it's fair but i am biased because my GPA would be a lot better if i didn't take them My only problem was that i wasn't sure I wanted to be a doctor or even knew that highschool classes would ever matter. Once i found out though i did try even harder to make up for it.

 

[Goro]

Yet here you are, a medical student!

You know kids, life's not fair. Not referring to you, Pan!!!

This is a little misleading, given the way that averages work and how competitive US allo schools are. Sure, one semester/year of college courses in high school won't make or break your transcript as a whole, but it can really affect your GPA by a lot. For example, without any of my high school college credits, my undergrad GPA would be around a 3.8. With the high school credits, I have a 3.6 or so. This included a few C/C+s, and a couple B/B-s. The difference is really quite vast, and I'm positive I was screened/looked unfavorably upon from some places because of it. I also was not nearly the same student senior year of high school compared to freshman year of college, which made the GPA drop sting that much more.

 

[BeancheBlanco]

No it isn't fair. Is it fair that Modern Analysis, an upper-level proof-based mathematics course, is given the same weight on your science GPA for medical schools as introduction to biology? No it isn't. Welcome to Earth.