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Grad student host gender?
- Thread starter luckyoceania
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I'm just one person, but for what it's worth.....
I didn't take his "joke" the wrong way. I was bugged WAY before that, which made the joke a non-surprise.
I agree with those that say that the OP's concerns are odd, & I wouldn't personally have been uncomfortable staying with a couple or a male.
I'm annoyed that Markp used this question as a segue to get really loud & judgmental about a complex & important issue that he has demonstrated no personal knowledge of. It must be really comfortable & self-gratifying to stand outside the cage & be an armchair commentator.
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It was a joke. Not a particularly funny one, because it's not particularly original, but a joke nonetheless. It doesn't make Mark any less qualified to be a psychologist. I find the rush to judge and condemn Mark a lot more concerning than his original comment. If you practice, you are going to have patients who will value ideas or jokes that you may find distasteful or abhorrent. Your reactions would not be appropriate in therapy. If you are going to disqualify Mark from practice for making a joke (on an internet board) that would be inappropriate if made in therapy, then I assume you too will refrain from practicing.
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No macros, either!
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A few thoughts.
1. MarkP is not my/our patient. His statement would be entirely appropriate in therapy - if he were the patient. It would be insanely inappropriate in therapy if he were the therapist.
2. Your suggestion seems to be that if a client would say it in therapy, it's OK so say here without judgment. Really? Because in therapy, clients say some impressively horrific things. Things that, outside of therapy, would indeed be expected to produce negative consequences. In therapy, though, they are grist for the therapeutic mill, with the obvious exception of statements of a type that requires a break in confidentiality. This board isn't therapy.
3. There's no 'rush to judge and condemn' MarkP. A handful of posters have said that his comments are sufficient to wonder whether or not he should be a therapist. They are. If I were hosting him during interview week, and this topic came up in a casual setting, and he responded the way that he did, it would indeed make me wonder whether or not he has the required sensitivity. I might come out of that wondering thinking that he does, that this was an ill-considered joke. I might not. It would depend on the rest of what I knew about him. Since all the information we have here is his posting, all I can say is that is raises questions (and hackles).
Of course those reactions would not be appropriate in therapy. I work with patients, and I have had patients say offensive things to me, and I deal with that just fine.
I do still stand by my point that making a stream of increasingly male-privilege-loaded comments followed by a completely inappropriate joke disappoints me in the context of someone being a clinical psychologist. I do have a higher standard for people in this field. Again, I never said that he should be disqualified from practice for saying such a thing (nor would I say that), but a "joke" like that is a red flag to me. I know if I found out a clinician was saying stuff like that anywhere, even outside of a clinical context, I would likely not feel comfortable referring people to their care. I also know that I am far from alone in that reaction, even if not many people here seem to agree.
If my posts here have made you feel that way about me, I'm sorry that's the case (and I do take yours and others feedback and agree to the point that I probably should have at least worded the comment differently), but we may just have to disagree on the main issue.
Edit: cross-posting with FranklinR, who said the things I was trying to, but possibly better. 🙂
This thread is crackin' me up. Watching people's buttons get pushed on both sides. If nothing else, interesting.
But seriously, I think everyone's missing the point. No matter what dorky thought goes thru the BF's mind, if it's going to make you self-conscious, worried, or uncomfortable for whatever reason, then I would find an alternative arrangement. Anything that's going to distract you from being focused and confident and emotionally balanced during the interview is not worth it. If your BF is going to be bugging you the night before because he's freaking out, it's only going to add stress to an already stressful situation. If reassuring him is going to resolve it, then great. If not, then you should think about how you will respond? And what impact that will have on you the next day.
Again, confused as to how this turned into a discussion about sexual assault and misogyny, but I know my anxiety levels are rising as these interview dates loom. I'm doing my best to not add any more than I need to at this point.
But seriously, I think everyone's missing the point. No matter what dorky thought goes thru the BF's mind, if it's going to make you self-conscious, worried, or uncomfortable for whatever reason, then I would find an alternative arrangement. Anything that's going to distract you from being focused and confident and emotionally balanced during the interview is not worth it. If your BF is going to be bugging you the night before because he's freaking out, it's only going to add stress to an already stressful situation. If reassuring him is going to resolve it, then great. If not, then you should think about how you will respond? And what impact that will have on you the next day.
Again, confused as to how this turned into a discussion about sexual assault and misogyny, but I know my anxiety levels are rising as these interview dates loom. I'm doing my best to not add any more than I need to at this point.
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As a 6'4, 300lb guy, I definitely can't relate to what a woman's perspective would be on staying with a guy for something like this (or even a couple, for that matter). As it is, I don't think I would have been able to handle staying with a grad student. For my interview, I stayed with my wife, my wife's cousin and her husband, who lived a couple of miles from campus, which made my life much easier. You have to be "on" during the interviews... I can't be "on" for that many consecutive hours.
I can tell you there is exactly zero chance I'd ever host a female applicant in my apartment. I live alone in my apartment, and visit my wife in her place on weekends. I am extremely risk-adverse, and slightly paranoid... the chance of a misunderstanding, or an unfalsifiable lie, is too much for me to take. Even if there was no evidence that I did anything wrong, in the face of an accusation, there would always be those who simply believed I didn't get caught. I don't need that stress.
I can tell you there is exactly zero chance I'd ever host a female applicant in my apartment. I live alone in my apartment, and visit my wife in her place on weekends. I am extremely risk-adverse, and slightly paranoid... the chance of a misunderstanding, or an unfalsifiable lie, is too much for me to take. Even if there was no evidence that I did anything wrong, in the face of an accusation, there would always be those who simply believed I didn't get caught. I don't need that stress.
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deleted176373
Well, let me take a few moments to address some concerns and explain the reasons behind my post. Maybe in context with the absolutely ridiculous posts that preceded mine, it might make sense. (For some, it will never make sense!)
Olivia101884 stated, "As an attractive, petite female, I have had several supervisors (all with Ph.Ds) who were extremely inappropriate and sexually suggestive to me."
I wasn't the one who brought up the idea that attractive females were somehow a special population that are more likely to have to deal with inappropriate behavior, sexual assault, or rape. So where is the railing against what she stated? My statement was followed by a wink, because I damn well know that not only attractive women can be assaulted (sexually or otherwise), but just about anyone can be. It wasn't humor, it was disbelief that anyone could be so myopic to think that their phenotype was the driving force behind the inappropriate behavior and not the actor.
Now for the intellectually challenged amongst you, my qualifications as a future therapist have little to do with my own personal beliefs or schema operating in my life outside of therapy. Good therapists use minimal self-disclosure and often their patients have no idea whatsoever what their therapists core beliefs may be. I would have expected more tolerance, but I have learned that while many people preach tolerance, very few practice it.
I think that the idea that I somehow endorsed rape or was making a sick joke is ridiculous. My highlighting the flawed logic of the poster above, who stated that because she was "petite and attractive" she was subject to this inappropriate behavior, was spot on. Many women who are not petite and not attractive are subject to this kind of behavior. It is reprehensible and unconscionable, but it's not the exclusive domain of the petite or attractive.
I think I clearly stated that "No one should have to live in fear of being preyed upon." What part of that did some of you not understand?
Another asinine comment, "I have taken many large guys in sparring matches, but asleep- at night- if a 200lbs person is on my back- there's a good chance I'll fight my way out of it, but maybe not. I don't know. I do know that I do not want to find out. I would rather not put myself in a situation in which it could happen- whether or not that makes me a poor martial artist I don't care."
You know, now that I think about it, I find that I have trouble fighting at night when I am asleep too... I think that even as a skilled martial artist, I am not going to win that fight. Come on folks, think a little.
In the end, fortunately, your opinion of my Internet musings matters little. I have been labeled as a misogynist by a bunch of people who don't know me, I find it entertaining as many of you sit in judgment with few facts and twisted words. I bet it would surprise many that my undergraduate mentor and thesis adviser* was an ardent feminist, that I loved to take ethics, gender, and womens studies classes. I look forward to my next public lynching. In the meantime, some of the people who harbor an abject fear of others might want to reconsider going into a field where your clients could possibly be large, physically imposing individuals who are emotionally labile and capable of overpowering you. How safe and comfortable will you feel in this situation; do you think that you will be able to deliver services in a competent manner in such an environment? Food for thought.
Mark
* - My honors thesis explored the relationship between alcohol consumption and sexual assault prevalence in Mexican-American and Caucasian-American Men and Women.
PS - FranklinR, you were never "at risk" of staying in my house to begin with. "Speaking as a 6'2" guy, can I request to not be housed with MarkP?" Request granted.
Olivia101884 stated, "As an attractive, petite female, I have had several supervisors (all with Ph.Ds) who were extremely inappropriate and sexually suggestive to me."
I wasn't the one who brought up the idea that attractive females were somehow a special population that are more likely to have to deal with inappropriate behavior, sexual assault, or rape. So where is the railing against what she stated? My statement was followed by a wink, because I damn well know that not only attractive women can be assaulted (sexually or otherwise), but just about anyone can be. It wasn't humor, it was disbelief that anyone could be so myopic to think that their phenotype was the driving force behind the inappropriate behavior and not the actor.
Now for the intellectually challenged amongst you, my qualifications as a future therapist have little to do with my own personal beliefs or schema operating in my life outside of therapy. Good therapists use minimal self-disclosure and often their patients have no idea whatsoever what their therapists core beliefs may be. I would have expected more tolerance, but I have learned that while many people preach tolerance, very few practice it.
I think that the idea that I somehow endorsed rape or was making a sick joke is ridiculous. My highlighting the flawed logic of the poster above, who stated that because she was "petite and attractive" she was subject to this inappropriate behavior, was spot on. Many women who are not petite and not attractive are subject to this kind of behavior. It is reprehensible and unconscionable, but it's not the exclusive domain of the petite or attractive.
I think I clearly stated that "No one should have to live in fear of being preyed upon." What part of that did some of you not understand?
Another asinine comment, "I have taken many large guys in sparring matches, but asleep- at night- if a 200lbs person is on my back- there's a good chance I'll fight my way out of it, but maybe not. I don't know. I do know that I do not want to find out. I would rather not put myself in a situation in which it could happen- whether or not that makes me a poor martial artist I don't care."
You know, now that I think about it, I find that I have trouble fighting at night when I am asleep too... I think that even as a skilled martial artist, I am not going to win that fight. Come on folks, think a little.
In the end, fortunately, your opinion of my Internet musings matters little. I have been labeled as a misogynist by a bunch of people who don't know me, I find it entertaining as many of you sit in judgment with few facts and twisted words. I bet it would surprise many that my undergraduate mentor and thesis adviser* was an ardent feminist, that I loved to take ethics, gender, and womens studies classes. I look forward to my next public lynching. In the meantime, some of the people who harbor an abject fear of others might want to reconsider going into a field where your clients could possibly be large, physically imposing individuals who are emotionally labile and capable of overpowering you. How safe and comfortable will you feel in this situation; do you think that you will be able to deliver services in a competent manner in such an environment? Food for thought.
Mark
* - My honors thesis explored the relationship between alcohol consumption and sexual assault prevalence in Mexican-American and Caucasian-American Men and Women.
PS - FranklinR, you were never "at risk" of staying in my house to begin with. "Speaking as a 6'2" guy, can I request to not be housed with MarkP?" Request granted.
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Really? I don't think it was a good post at all.
I get that people were a bit over-the-top reactive to Markp's joke post. But I also get that if someone tosses crap like that around, they shouldn't be surprised when people take it poorly. This is a written internet forum and it's not possible to convey sarcasm effectively. Plus, I think that Markp is missing that some of the vitriol, at least as I perceive it, was less about the content of the joke (i.e. the attractiveness thing) than the appropriateness of making a sarcastic rape joke, especially given the content of Mark's earlier posts.
As for the future qualifications piece, Mark seems to be saying that the only time our own stuff gets mixed into therapy is when we're self-disclosing. I hope I'm reading that wrong, because that's absurdly incorrect. I do think that this post and others on the forum (about feminism, women, and multiculturalism) that I've read from Mark speak to what I perceive to be some weaknesses in self-awareness. I don't mean that to be a dig, and I realize I'm getting that from a laughably small sample of behavior, but that's my perception. But I also see some parallels to another discussion where I managed to offend a board member in a conversation about homophobia, mostly because I took the position that *I*, and not a straight person, get to decide what qualifies as offensive to gay people. I think Mark's counteroffense at being "labeled as a mysogynist," or pedantic counterarguments (the "fighting while asleep" thing) is pretty parallel to this (including emphatic statements about diverse training experiences and such).
I get that people were a bit over-the-top reactive to Markp's joke post. But I also get that if someone tosses crap like that around, they shouldn't be surprised when people take it poorly. This is a written internet forum and it's not possible to convey sarcasm effectively. Plus, I think that Markp is missing that some of the vitriol, at least as I perceive it, was less about the content of the joke (i.e. the attractiveness thing) than the appropriateness of making a sarcastic rape joke, especially given the content of Mark's earlier posts.
As for the future qualifications piece, Mark seems to be saying that the only time our own stuff gets mixed into therapy is when we're self-disclosing. I hope I'm reading that wrong, because that's absurdly incorrect. I do think that this post and others on the forum (about feminism, women, and multiculturalism) that I've read from Mark speak to what I perceive to be some weaknesses in self-awareness. I don't mean that to be a dig, and I realize I'm getting that from a laughably small sample of behavior, but that's my perception. But I also see some parallels to another discussion where I managed to offend a board member in a conversation about homophobia, mostly because I took the position that *I*, and not a straight person, get to decide what qualifies as offensive to gay people. I think Mark's counteroffense at being "labeled as a mysogynist," or pedantic counterarguments (the "fighting while asleep" thing) is pretty parallel to this (including emphatic statements about diverse training experiences and such).
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Agreed, Jon Snow. And also, I honestly cannot imagine that a group of people who are (hopefully) ready for a PhD are truly incapable of catching such blatant sarcasm.
Sure, some might find his remarks to be pretty awful, but CONSTANTLY talking about it is really getting old. Perhaps you should just agree to disagree and go find another thread where you can actually HELP someone rather than trying to preach why you are right and why someone else is wrong. I feel answering a stressed out person's question rather than actively seeking someone to embarrass will truly make your internet self look a lot nicer and a lot more mature. He has his values, you all seem to have yours, nothing either side says will change that.
Sure, some might find his remarks to be pretty awful, but CONSTANTLY talking about it is really getting old. Perhaps you should just agree to disagree and go find another thread where you can actually HELP someone rather than trying to preach why you are right and why someone else is wrong. I feel answering a stressed out person's question rather than actively seeking someone to embarrass will truly make your internet self look a lot nicer and a lot more mature. He has his values, you all seem to have yours, nothing either side says will change that.
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deleted176373
Originally Posted by cara susanna
I'm 5'3" and 115 lbs. Not sure if that counts or not 😉
You have to be attractive too... otherwise it's not dangerous. The ugly don't get assaulted. 😉
Mark
I never made a joke about rape, where did I use the word rape? I said assaulted... not even sexually assaulted. All those looking to be offended took it and ran. So the whole burr up the ass thing isn't because of what I said, but what others chose to perceive.
No, what I saying was that good therapists endeavor to minimize the impact that their "stuff" has in session. Stop trying to overgeneralize. I assumed that you might understand the difference between an example and a sweeping generalization.
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I think it's safe to say that we all have weaknesses in self-awareness. Furthermore, I am not offended, not in the slightest. Interestingly enough, some women have read this and weren't offended and others were... Some men have read this and were offended and others were not. Being female doesn't make you the arbiter of what is offensive to women any more than being gay makes you the arbiter of what is offensive to gay men. We are each the arbiter of what is offensive to ourselves but to assume that our beliefs can be substituted for the beliefs of others is a bit arrogant. Do you believe in stereotyping people too?
With regard to my training, I believe it was you, who suggested that I needed some form of sensitivity training in the form of a psychology of women class. I think it was fair to state that I have had such training, and that I sought those opportunities out, data you were clearly missing and perhaps making assumptions about. This was, as you clearly state, a very small sample of my behavior. If you chose to make judgments based on incomplete data and inaccurate assumptions then your future will be quite entertaining (although I wish you the best.)
Mark
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Um, not sure how many think I made the original remark but I'm feeling uneasy because I keep seeing my comment quoted without the original context. So, I would like to make a disclaimer: I only stated my height and weight because of psych cavy's remark wondering if how many of us fit that 5'1" 115 lbs demographic, not to demonstrate how desireable I am!
I really didn't mean to start this huge argument with what I meant to be a light-hearted comment ._.
I really didn't mean to start this huge argument with what I meant to be a light-hearted comment ._.
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...
Statements like this are not helping the situation CS. I'm sure you are very proud of your looks, but I think this only adding fuel to the fire that is online arguments.
(Thank goodness for misquotes).
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Oh, internet.
Btw, you nearly gave me a heart attack when I read that!
Btw, you nearly gave me a heart attack when I read that!
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deleted176373
It's not your fault... I think that your worried about nothing. I know and understand why you said, what you said. I have no desire to drag you into this mess. Let them continue to come after me, I starting to get amused by it.
Mark
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Thanks, I appreciate it. I wouldn't care with any other forum, but the psych community is fairly small and I don't want to be misunderstood, heh.
