"Bound by law to offer gender affirming advice."

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I used the term willful ignorance in relation to people who believed a very specific thing. I wouldn't call it name calling in certain contexts. We are all ignorant of things. I am ignorant of the nuances of cricket. However, I do not espouse very strong opinions on this matter of which I am woefully ignorant.

I'm presuming this poster has some knowledge about the topic by virtue of our shared profession. Like, if we both had knowledge about crickets, we might still disagree on their migratory patterns, for instance. If you were to call me ignorant because I didn't take your view on cricket migratory patterns, it wouldn't necessarily mean that I am ignorant, but it might mean that you believe that I wouldn't be ignorant if I took your view. Presuming there is no universal view of cricket migratory patterns, I can't be ignorant for having my perspective. So, in that case, its hard to see that as anything else aside from name calling. I'm sure it's an informal fallacy of some kind, but I can't think of which one at the moment.

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I'm presuming this poster has some knowledge about the topic by virtue of our shared profession. Like, if we both had knowledge about crickets, we might still disagree on their migratory patterns, for instance. If you were to call me ignorant because I didn't take your view on cricket migratory patterns, it wouldn't necessarily mean that I am ignorant, but it might mean that you believe that I wouldn't be ignorant if I took your view. Presuming there is no universal view of cricket migratory patterns, I can't be ignorant for having my perspective. So, in that case, its hard to see that as anything else aside from name calling. I'm sure it's an informal fallacy of some kind, but I can't think of which one at the moment.

I just want to be 100% clear here. I was definitely talking about the sport. I don't want anyone thinking that I don't know my way around cricket anatomy and behavior patterns.

As to knowledge about gender affirming care, I wouldn't assume people in our field have some knowledge at all.
 
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I just want to be 100% clear here. I was definitely talking about the sport. I don't want anyone thinking that I don't know my way around cricket anatomy and behavior patterns.

Hey, I was just riffing off you. Whatever you do in your spare time is your business :)

As to knowledge about gender affirming care, I wouldn't assume people in our field have some knowledge at all.

I had a lot of training in this area, particularly on internship and postdoc, but I'm an ECP so maybe I shouldn't make that assumption.
 
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I kinda understand part of the bathroom bans. Using Blanchard's taxonomy - I am totally okay with a "homosexual transexual" using mine or my daughter's restroom. I have far more reservations about a "heterosexual transsexual" with autogynephilia using the restroom while my daughter is there. Just to be clear, no super stoked about autogynephilia - seems to a stretch, but if it exists and is driving someone's dysphoria - then that raises an issue of consent. But regardless, I don't want a biological male who considers herself a "lesbian" around my child in a vulnerable setting.
Now, there's a question about governing. I don't really think a law, with the threat of governmental monoply of force, could handle such nuance. And I am totally against hurting homosexual transgender people via discrimination.

I know I am going to killed for this, but I just wanted to discuss this. Now tell me how I am wrong.
Please tell me other than a few very publicized anecdotes, where are the scores of transwomen trying to prey on young children coming from?

I would encourage you to reflect deeply on where this belief is coming from.

Pedophilia is not part of trans identity in any way shape or form. If men want to prey on children, there are far easier ways, like opening the door to a women’s bathroom rather than changing their gender, surgery, etc.

JK Rowling expressed the same concern and a few folks have reported a few anecdotes of transwomen assaulting ciswomen in prisons. The reality is, most transwomen fear violence and are more likely to be beat up or killed for using a women’s bathroom than to assault children, except for pedophiles, which make up a small part of any population (per the UCLA Williams Institute survey: Gendered Restrooms and Minority Stress). So let’s accuse a marginalized group that experiences a much higher rate of violence from men than the rest of the population of being predators…


Should we also exclude men or from coaching children’s sports or being physical therapists, doctors, and trainers with children? Should we not allow men to be alone with children who aren’t related? I’m just broadening the argument here, because children are very vulnerable in these conditions as well but I don’t hear the same folks talking about transwomen in bathrooms clamoring for changes in men’s access in children’s sports or gymnastics, which have had some horribly egregious sexual assaults of adolescents and children over the years (US gymnastics’ Dr. Nassar to the tune of hundreds of girls over decades with no consequences for many years despite concerns being raised multiple times—no one is saying we shouldn’t have male doctors in women’s/girls’ sports).

Do anti-discrimination bathroom policies lead to increased sexual assaults? Several states have already had these laws on the books for years with no issues.

Police and school officials say they haven’t seen [an increase in sexual assaults] either. Media Matters, a liberal media watchdog, has asked state leaders, law enforcement and school officials in places with these protections whether they’ve seen any increase in sexual assault or rape after passing these laws, and they have repeatedly said that they have not. “We have not seen that,” a Des Moines police department spokesman told the outlet in 2014. “I doubt that’s gonna encourage the behavior. If the behavior’s there, [sexual predators are] gonna behave as they’re gonna behave no matter what the laws are.”


I’ve done my part in this thread, more than I should have. Your talking points have come from a very clear agenda from a particular group, speaking of agendas from earlier.

I’m waiting for your evidence to back up what you’re saying.
 
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All I did was ask you to engage in the discourse by stating your position clearly. If you did, point me to the post, I may have missed it.



Calling people ignorant is name calling.
I think you misread this. My understanding of it was that the poster felt others were calling conservative people ignorant as opposed to calling the posters ignorant. Not helpful to argue about misunderstandings that have little to do with the discussion.

On one point of the discussion at hand, I also think it is a bit of an unrealistic fear about “transgender” males lurking in bathrooms and agree that we need to stop trying to prevent problems that aren’t even problems. I keep trying to tell my spouse that we don’t need laws to check for genitalia at bathrooms and social norms are more important than laws in many ways anyway. I’m not sure why this fear gets to her other than she also worries about rest areas and truckers which is definitely a more realistic fear as I can attest to directly from working in that industry for ten years. Humans tend to conflate things though and fears are frequently irrational. Ergo fearmongering by all wanting to promote agendas.

Had a great talk with a client about their own process today and even if I am not always up on the latest terminology, I think they realize that I am on their side as they navigate this and they give me a pass because I’m old and willing to be educated by my clients. Probably more willing for them to educate me than anyone who isn’t regardless of their credential. I actually tend to take that stance on most aspects of personal identification. I always seemed to come into conflict with diversity folk for this as though my emphasis on personal individual experience denied the relevance of group experiences. Fortunately my patients do appreciate the nuance and I just keep my mouth shut in diversity trainings and act as though everything they say is true. I am clearly biased against diversity trainings. I do enjoy working with my very diverse clientele though.
 
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Where I work, this issue has less to do with political affiliation (only referring to mental health providers) than just general lack of curiosity and expertise and humility about what they don't understand. Individual interactions suck, but that's just the icing on the cake.

In my state, which is heavily influenced by Republican driven policies, there is a whole lot of posturing to dismantle all things LGBTQ+ such marriage equality, healthcare access, etc. There are over a dozen bills that have been introduced this round to add to the much larger stack. If I discuss Republicans, I am almost exclusively focused on politicians. There is a ton of variability at the individual level. It's pretty dang homogeneous legislatively in my area.
 
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I think you misread this. My understanding of it was that the poster felt others were calling conservative people ignorant as opposed to calling the posters ignorant. Not helpful to argue about misunderstandings that have little to do with the discussion.

We can agree to disagree on this point. I think appropriate discourse on sensitive issues is important and throwing terms around, instead of stating your own view for the group to evaluate, also does little to further the conversation. I was sincere in asking for posters with conservative leanings to state their arguments clearly in a manner that does not involve fear-mongering or other such nonsense.
 
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Back to the original topic, yes JP is hyperbolic and is pushing back against Canada‘s liberal policies. My recollection was that he first gained popularity for taking a stance against being mandated to use pronouns and his objection was that it violated free speech. He also said that personally if a student is transgender he has no problem using their pronouns. He does come across as very arrogant so I can see why he rubs many the wrong way, but he is also incredibly polite in a very Canadian sort of way. These are just my limited observations and impressions since I did feel it was important to look into the guy a bit since many patients have strong feelings about the guy. His being against a government mandate regarding gender affirming care is consistent with his earlier stance regarding free speech.

Personally, I don’t really like the government to have much say in how I provide treatment to my patients. Although I do support that some states have banned conversion therapy so I’m not completely consistent. I also think the gender affirming care being legislated could be a bit more complicated when you consider things like puberty and hormonal transition and age of majority. My patients who are transgender have different opinions and perspectives on this so I would probably push back against legislation that either mandated or prohibited what medical providers could or should do. My position at this point is to let the doctors and parents and kids figure it out and keep the politicians out of it. Some docs might say no friggin way and others might want to start hormones right away. Parents will either support kids process in a healthy way or they won’t and I don’t think anyone will change that dynamic.
 
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Back to the original topic, yes JP is hyperbolic and is pushing back against Canada‘s liberal policies. My recollection was that he first gained popularity for taking a stance against being mandated to use pronouns and his objection was that it violated free speech. He also said that personally if a student is transgendered he has no problem using their pronouns. He does come across as very arrogant so I can see why he rubs many the wrong way, but he is also incredibly polite in a very Canadian sort of way. These are just my limited observations and impressions since I did feel it was important to look into the guy a bit since many patients have strong feelings about the guy. His being against a government mandate regarding gender affirming care is consistent with his earlier stance regarding free speech.

Personally, I don’t really like the government to have much say in how I provide treatment to my patients. Although I do support that some states have banned conversion therapy so I’m not completely consistent. I also think the gender affirming care being legislated could be a bit more complicated when you consider things like puberty and hormonal transition and age of majority. My patients who are transgender have different opinions and perspectives on this so I would probably push back against legislation that either mandated or prohibited what medical providers could or should do. My position at this point is to let the doctors and parents and kids figure it out and keep the politicians out of it. Some docs might say no friggin way and others might want to start hormones right away. Parents will either support kids process in a healthy way or they won’t and I don’t think anyone will change that dynamic.
Not trying to nitpick or derail your comments, but please use appropriate terms for the trans community. My earlier post in this thread addressed the term you used, for reference.
 
Not trying to nitpick or derail your comments, but please use appropriate terms for the trans community. My earlier post in this thread addressed the term you used, for reference.
Fixed it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I think it was actually put in their by my tablets autocorrect as that is what it seems to want to put in for some reason as I test it. We might want to let Apple know. Not a term I would use since it doesn’t sound grammatically correct and when people find it offensive or even just inaccurate even more reason not too. I try to avoid dehumanizing and stigmatizing language as much as possible.
 
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Huge net negative. I don't see how a King of the Incels can be anything but. You can be a free speech advocate without being an opportunistic grifter.
How does society handle the neckbeard/incel population? JP didn't create them, but he has found a way to message to them. As an aside, I don't really align JP with that population. I view him a cultural critic with some interesting takes on things.
 
How does society handle the neckbeard/incel population? JP didn't create them, but he has found a way to message to them. As an aside, I don't really align JP with that population. I view him a cultural critic with some interesting takes on things.

Yes, he has found a way to message to them, but mostly be affirming their misguided views and stoking their rage. It's noting new, he just does it from a position of "intellectual authority" which is a leadership figure that group generally lacks.
 
Ignoring all of our ideological differences, I can't take him seriously because he has a habit of taking a half truth and turning it into a "natural law." He is banned from talking about the Pareto principle. And lobsters.
 
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Where I work, this issue has less to do with political affiliation (only referring to mental health providers) than just general lack of curiosity and expertise and humility about what they don't understand. Individual interactions suck, but that's just the icing on the cake.

In my state, which is heavily influenced by Republican driven policies, there is a whole lot of posturing to dismantle all things LGBTQ+ such marriage equality, healthcare access, etc. There are over a dozen bills that have been introduced this round to add to the much larger stack. If I discuss Republicans, I am almost exclusively focused on politicians. There is a ton of variability at the individual level. It's pretty dang homogeneous legislatively in my area.
Good , because everywhere else it's the opposite.
 

Wow- 2/3 of all recently proposed legislation is somehow related to LGBTQ issues (i.e. reducing rights, limiting access to care, etc.).

Question for those of you who have argued against gender affirming care- what scientific outcome evidence would convince you that gender affirming care is the thing to do? I doubt that it's any. I really think, as others have allude, that it's a morals issue based on religious and cultural beliefs. You are certainly legally entitled to having and expressing that position (though discrimination based on those beliefs is not legal I many settings). I just wish you'd own up to it and say "I believe that homosexuality is wrong based on my religious beliefs, and God creates you as a man or woman, and who are we to challenge god." At least then we could stop this argument about scientific evidence and get to arguing about inconsistenciescp with adherence to Leviticus (or even how Jesus- as set forth in Romans- rendered earlier rules moot). Being ignorant (ad hominem alert) sucks, being mean is worse. Combining that with being disingenuous is just annoying.

I avow that if gender affirming care was scientifically shown to - through appropriately designed longitudinal outcome studies- lead to higher rates of mental illness and suicide, I'd be against it's implementation. Can you avow the contrary? If scientific findings are contrary to the teachings of your faith, are they ignored?
 
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Wow- 2/3 of all recently proposed legislation is somehow related to LGBTQ issues (i.e. reducing rights, limiting access to care, etc.).

Question for those of you who have argued against gender affirming care- what scientific outcome evidence would convince you that gender affirming care is the thing to do? I doubt that it's any. I really think, as others have allude, that it's a morals issue based on religious and cultural beliefs. You are certainly legally entitled to having and expressing that position (though discrimination based on those beliefs is not legal I many settings). I just wish you'd own up to it and say "I believe that homosexuality is wrong based on my religious beliefs, and God creates you as a man or woman, and who are we to challenge god." At least then we could stop this argument about scientific evidence and get to arguing about inconsistenciescp with adherence to Leviticus (or even how Jesus- as set forth in Romans- rendered earlier rules moot). Being ignorant (ad hominem alert) sucks, being mean is worse. Combining that with being disingenuous is just annoying.

I avow that if gender affirming care was scientifically shown to - through appropriately designed longitudinal outcome studies- lead to higher rates of mental illness and suicide, I'd be against it's implementation. Can you avow the contrary? If scientific findings are contrary to the teachings of your faith, are they ignored?

As we have seen with many in this country, of course. Though, I'd wager sometimes it's just downright hatred for many people, who then use religion as their cover.
 
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Wow- 2/3 of all recently proposed legislation is somehow related to LGBTQ issues (i.e. reducing rights, limiting access to care, etc.).

Question for those of you who have argued against gender affirming care- what scientific outcome evidence would convince you that gender affirming care is the thing to do? I doubt that it's any. I really think, as others have allude, that it's a morals issue based on religious and cultural beliefs. You are certainly legally entitled to having and expressing that position (though discrimination based on those beliefs is not legal I many settings). I just wish you'd own up to it and say "I believe that homosexuality is wrong based on my religious beliefs, and God creates you as a man or woman, and who are we to challenge god." At least then we could stop this argument about scientific evidence and get to arguing about inconsistenciescp with adherence to Leviticus (or even how Jesus- as set forth in Romans- rendered earlier rules moot). Being ignorant (ad hominem alert) sucks, being mean is worse. Combining that with being disingenuous is just annoying.

I avow that if gender affirming care was scientifically shown to - through appropriately designed longitudinal outcome studies- lead to higher rates of mental illness and suicide, I'd be against it's implementation. Can you avow the contrary? If scientific findings are contrary to the teachings of your faith, are they ignored?
I don’t think I argued against gender-affirming care as I am not sure exactly what that means and I tend to not takes sides. I don’t agree with either banning or mandating gender-affirming care so I think I align with JP on this point. I also think that this term is kind of nebulous and prevents a real discussion about where and how we draw the lines as far as instituting more permanent procedures which is what I talk to kids and families about.

My experience so far with these conversations has been based more on what the individual and their family think makes sense from a personal stance than a religious stance. It has been awhile since I have worked with any clients with the staunchly pray away the gay Christian types although in he past I have worked with quite a few individuals who had to navigate family and religious beliefs regarding their sexual orientation just haven’t run into that with gender identity as so far all of my clients with gender identity have not been from that type of religious background.

From my perspective, I have just as much of a problem with advocates for religion shaming people as I do with advocates for LGBT pressuring people (interestingly, I have yet to see this pressure come from a person who is actually LGBT) and I have seen both of these occur.

As far as research goes, if there was a clear line between identifying people at an early age who would benefit from medical intervention, then I would be all for it. I just don’t know if it helps some and not others or if it can even cause harm. I have a patient right now that was made to wait until they were of majority age by their family and he clearly states that he was glad that he waited, albeit with some ambivalence, although a few years ago they were very adamant that they needed to start the process.
 
From my perspective, I have just as much of a problem with advocates for religion shaming people as I do with advocates for LGBT pressuring people (interestingly, I have yet to see this pressure come from a person who is actually LGBT) and I have seen both of these occur.
I appreciate your post but I can't wrap my mind around the idea that there is an equivalency here. One side wants to exist and enjoy individual rights/freedoms and the other side wants to infringe on those rights.
 
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I don’t think I argued against gender-affirming care ...
I don't recall that you did either
From my perspective, I have just as much of a problem with advocates for religion shaming people as I do with advocates for LGBT pressuring people
Doing either (shaming or pressuring) without a mind to what the evidence suggests would be best for the individual client is, imho, a bad thing. I think we totally agree on this.
(interestingly, I have yet to see this pressure come from a person who is actually LGBT)
At least that you know of, right?
As far as research goes, if there was a clear line between identifying people at an early age who would benefit from medical intervention, then I would be all for it.
I think JP's position (and that of others here- not you, but others) is that (a) clinicians are regularly identifying pre- or newly-pubescent clients as trans or non-binary; (b) advocating for almost immediate intervention, including medical intervention (some irreversible) to alter that clients identified gender from the one assigned at birth; and (c) those clients are quickly undergoing such procedures. Before we argue whether or not that is something that should/shouldn't happen, we should identify whether (a) it is, in fact happening; (b) the extent to which it is the norm. Also, we probably should identify the extent to which all that is, in fact, what is meant by "gender affirming care" before we argue for or against that in the name of arguing for or against gender affirming care (I think that some posters with a lot more knowledge of the issue than me have cleared up that last point).

I just get the sense- and i could be wrong, obviously that some folks (not you, smalltown) actually believe that it is the norm in some clinical circles to advocate for gender-reassignment (social and/or surgical) at the first signs of any questions related to gender identity, regardless of the age of the child.

Looking at publish data on patient characteristics (Trends in Gender-affirming Surgery in Insured Patients in the United States) looks like the youngest client to undergo gender-affirming surgery (in their case, mastectomy) was 14. Average age for gender-affirming mastectomy was 28.1, and that was the youngest average age of any of the noted surgical procedures, with average age of most being in the late 30s- early 40s. It's important to note that data for that study came from insurance databases, so it does not capture individuals who paid privately, and thus the dataset likely under-represents the actual population.
 
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I appreciate your post but I can't wrap my mind around the idea that there is an equivalency here. One side wants to exist and enjoy individual rights/freedoms and the other side wants to infringe on those rights.
Could be because it’s harder to see what is wrong with extremes on the side one tends to agree with. I used to se it similarly to the perspective you are stating until I saw pressure from therapists who clearly identified their role as being advocates. Friends of mine who came out back in the scary days of the 80s and 90s also told me about how they were pressured to come out by others. Even back then before I was a psychologist, I would tell them that they should come out whenever and however they felt was appropriate and f those people. I agree in some ways that it probably isn’t completely equivalent and I away lean towed the advocacy and away from the religious tradition side of things so I don’t want it to sound like a there are good people on both sides type of statement.

Maybe it will clarify my position a bit to state a client’s perspective. She is beginning a process of gender transitioning and stated that there is a lot of societal pressure towards change with this issue currently and this change and pressure leads to fear and that fear can lead to backlash. They don’t really want to increase the fear and backlash as this is really more about their own personal journey and is not in a big hurry to be a martyr. She believes that most of this tension will ease as society adjusts and people realize that life will continue and individuals with varying types of gender identity aren’t really a big problem. She kind of wishes that she didn’t feel called to do this at this time in history, but is making a clearly well thought out choice and has decided that this is personally the time to begin this process. Very smart kid and I am honored to be able to support her as she decides how to do it and also know that her insights will be shared with future patients to ease their journey. Her voice is what I will listen to more so than a few of the self-appointed advocates I have run into in the past who seem to enjoy increasing the pressure regardless of the cost the people they are advocating for.
 
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Could be because it’s harder to see what is wrong with extremes on the side one tends to agree with. I used to se it similarly to the perspective you are stating until I saw pressure from therapists who clearly identified their role as being advocates. Friends of mine who came out back in the scary days of the 80s and 90s also told me about how they were pressured to come out by others. Even back then before I was a psychologist, I would tell them that they should come out whenever and however they felt was appropriate and f those people. I agree in some ways that it probably isn’t completely equivalent and I away lean towed the advocacy and away from the religious tradition side of things so I don’t want it to sound like a there are good people on both sides type of statement.

Maybe it will clarify my position a bit to state a client’s perspective. She is beginning a process of gender transitioning and stated that there is a lot of societal pressure towards change with this issue currently and this change and pressure leads to fear and that fear can lead to backlash. They don’t really want to increase the fear and backlash as this is really more about their own personal journey and is not in a big hurry to be a martyr. She believes that most of this tension will ease as society adjusts and people realize that life will continue and individuals with varying types of gender identity aren’t really a big problem. She kind of wishes that she didn’t feel called to do this at this time in history, but is making a clearly well thought out choice and has decided that this is personally the time to begin this process. Very smart kid and I am honored to be able to support her as she decides how to do it and also know that her insights will be shared with future patients to ease their journey. Her voice is what I will listen to more so than a few of the self-appointed advocates I have run into in the past who seem to enjoy increasing the pressure regardless of the cost the people they are advocating for.
Thank you and fair enough. While I am aware that there are extreme advocates on both sides of this issue, I think your post acknowledges the difference between misguided advocacy of promoting access (not pressure to change) to care and the extreme advocacy on the other side.
 
Rogan recently had on JP again (for like what seems the millionth time) and JP at one point starts to discuss an anecdote about a young woman (minor) who was rushed to transitioning by providers. Gives examples of how occam's razor and base rates were essentially ignored (i.e., the girl was likely on the spectrum with a slew of other fairly typical mental syndromes for a teenage girl) and instead of addressing the likely simplest explanations for her problems, she was told "Maybe it's because you're really a man." Then ended up beginning the transitioning process and now has a whole bunch of resultant problems.

Not trying to get into a sociopolitical debate with this question, but here it is nonetheless: JP gives some quote that all medical providers are required to provide "gender affirming advice" or they could face penalty, and then cites that because of this the clinicians weren't able to act as clinical scientists and get to the actual problem at hand. I spent the some time this weekend scouring my state's relevant code and I have yet to see anything like this codified. Admittedly I have yet to do a deep dive into the APA ethics code to see how this would be addressed there or under which umbrella it might be relevant. Also, I'm not sure if this is a Canadian case (JP is licensed up there and currently at risk of losing it unless he goes through mandatory "re-education"), so maybe it's in their ethics code, but I'm wondering... what exactly does "gender affirming advice" really mean??? At least as it pertains to the practice of clinical psychology. Was Peterson just being melodramatic and/or hyperbolic (as he has a tendency to do)?
I dont think he was. He has extensively discussed many times the laws that are being put in place as well as discussing the problematic interpretations of such laws. I imagine that the clinician still can object to endorse the treatment but with todays world he/she may risk a lawsuit. How "conversion therapy" has been defined and used now is far different than what conversion therapy actually is.
 
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I dont think he was. He has extensively discussed many times the laws that are being put in place as well as discussing the problematic interpretations of such laws. I imagine that the clinician still can object to endorse the treatment but with todays world he/she may risk a lawsuit. How "conversion therapy" has been defined and used now is far different than what conversion therapy actually is.
Do you know of the law he is referring to? I know others have previously guessed at which law/guideline/standard, but I'm still not clear on the exact cause of this problem (one that I assume is being remedied by the proposed state bans). I'm not aware of any law that would compel a provider to administer treatment for someone who they deemed did not meet the clinical criteria for the desired treatment.
 
Do you know of the law he is referring to? I know others have previously guessed at which law/guideline/standard, but I'm still not clear on the exact cause of this problem (one that I assume is being remedied by the proposed state bans). I'm not aware of any law that would compel a provider to administer treatment for someone who they deemed did not meet the clinical criteria for the desired treatment.
I believe hes referring to Canada and he mentioned the law by name but I do not have it off the top of my head. Its not exactly compelling the clinician to administer treatment but its heavily pushing affirmation instead of anything else
 
I believe hes referring to Canada and he mentioned the law by name but I do not have it off the top of my head. Its not exactly compelling the clinician to administer treatment but its heavily pushing affirmation instead of anything else
Yes I think it's a crime in Canada to use the wrong pronoun
 
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If you don't tell anorexic people, they are overweight you shouldn't affirm a person's delusions they are the opposite gender. An adult has the right to do whatever they want to their own body but when it comes to children's parents and providers providing this so called "gender affirming" care need to be held accountable and prosecuted for abuse.
 
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The GOP and far right LOVE to rally people on this issue by fearmongering. It works.

The reality is that practitioners do not rush children or adolescents into surgery in the U.S. from everything I’ve seen in my training in this over the years. It is a careful process of exploration. I’ve talked about this before in this forum. I don’t know any psychologist who rushes people into surgery. If it is happening, I’d like to know where and who is involved.

Gender affirming just means you’re open to exploration rather than judgment, and recognize that society can be wrong about its treatment of folks. And, if it is stable over time, you’re open to taking further steps to help the person get additional treatment for gender dysphoria.

Check out the WPATH standards for more info and refer out when it is out of your competence.

One last thing I want to add is that we need to make sure boys and girls are allowed to express themselves fully in childhood—ie expressing both masculine and feminine traits without stigmatizing it or saying they don’t fit into their gender. Our society needs to tolerate a range of expressions from even cis folks so that kids don’t get confused that things like playing with an opposite gender toy automatically means gender dysphoria. It doesn’t.

Excuse me? The right love to rally people behind fear mongering? Who are the ones pushing left wing conspiracy theories like "systemic racism", "voter suppression" etc. Which parties rhetoric led to the LGBT+ supremacist who shot up that Nasheville school last week or the 3 state capital attacks we have experienced in the last few weeks? What rhetoric and fear mongering led to the rise of BLM/ANTIFA and other alt left extremist groups in the last few years? Who is trying to disarm the population while being more lax on crime and encouraging civil unrest?

I don't want a seriously mentally ill man who thinks they are a woman in the same restroom as my daughters. How this has become a controversial opinion just shows how far down the clown world rabbit hole we have gone.
 
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Excuse me? The right love to rally people behind fear mongering? Who are the ones pushing left wing conspiracy theories like "systemic racism", "voter suppression" etc. Which parties rhetoric led to the LGBT+ supremacist who shot up that Nasheville school last week or the 3 state capital attacks we have experienced in the last few weeks? What rhetoric and fear mongering led to the rise of BLM/ANTIFA and other alt left extremist groups in the last few years? Who is trying to disarm the population while being more lax on crime and encouraging civil unrest?

I don't want a seriously mentally ill man who thinks they are a woman in the same restroom as my daughters. How this has become a controversial opinion just shows how far down the clown world rabbit hole we have gone.
A bona fide fearmongering example I imagine fovereverbull was referring to.

The more important part of their post was their definition of gender-affirming care:
Gender affirming just means you’re open to exploration rather than judgment, and recognize that society can be wrong about its treatment of folks. And, if it is stable over time, you’re open to taking further steps to help the person get additional treatment for gender dysphoria.

Check out the WPATH standards for more info and refer out when it is out of your competence.
 
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Melissa Mccarthy Fight GIF by Saturday Night Live
 

30 k fine in Canada for using wrong pronouns

30 k fine in Canada for using wrong pronouns

What about adjectives? My preferred adjectives are handsome and brilliant. I get perturbed when someone forgets to address me with my adjectives.
 

30 k fine in Canada for using wrong pronouns

You should read the actual ruling. It's based on discrimination proceedings that include persistent and intentional harassment and wrongful termination secondary to discrimination. This goes well beyond simply not using a preferred pronoun.
 
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Oh systemic racism and voter suppression are conspiracy theories now? @ChudsMgee Tell us more. Feel free to cite your sources.

Never mind lol I can’t even pretend to take you seriously. Tag me when you enter your holocaust denial arc. I just know that’ll get you way more attention.
 
Oh systemic racism and voter suppression are conspiracy theories now? @ChudsMgee Tell us more. Feel free to cite your sources.

Never mind lol I can’t even pretend to take you seriously. Tag me when you enter your holocaust denial arc. I just know that’ll get you way more attention.

Systemic Racism is not a thing in America due to the Civil Rights Act of 1968. One can argue that Affirmative Action is the last shred of systemic racism in America but there are so many educational institutions in America this doesn't do much to affect the populations it hits the hardest (Asian/Indian) considering they are financially the most successful groups in America.

As for Voter Suppression its nothing more than a conspiracy theory by people like the election denying black supremacist sympathizer Stacey Abrams.

People need to understand pushing these conspiracy theories has consequences. We all saw the summer of blood of 2020 and the rise of alt left extremism. People are still rebuilding...
 
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You should read the actual ruling. It's based on discrimination proceedings that include persistent and intentional harassment and wrongful termination secondary to discrimination. This goes well beyond simply not using a preferred pronoun.
The federal equivalent to British Columbia’s Human Rights Act was expanded four years ago to provide greater protection to transgender people, according to the LGBTQ+ news outlet Xtra. In 2017, the Parliament of Canada passed bill C-16, which added protections on the basis of both gender identity and expression in its existing nondiscrimination and hate crimes laws...
Thank goodness we don't have any of that nonsense here and I don't live in Commiefornia either
 
Systemic Racism is not a thing in America due to the Civil Rights Act of 1968. One can argue that Affirmative Action is the last shred of systemic racism in America but there are so many educational institutions in America this doesn't do much to affect the populations it hits the hardest (Asian/Indian) considering they are financially the most successful groups in America.

As for Voter Suppression its nothing more than a conspiracy theory by people like the election denying black supremacist sympathizer Stacey Abrams.

People need to understand pushing these conspiracy theories has consequences. We all saw the summer of blood of 2020 and the rise of alt left extremism. People are still rebuilding...
Yes you are correct
 
Back to the original topic, yes JP is hyperbolic and is pushing back against Canada‘s liberal policies. My recollection was that he first gained popularity for taking a stance against being mandated to use pronouns and his objection was that it violated free speech. He also said that personally if a student is transgender he has no problem using their pronouns. He does come across as very arrogant so I can see why he rubs many the wrong way, but he is also incredibly polite in a very Canadian sort of way. These are just my limited observations and impressions since I did feel it was important to look into the guy a bit since many patients have strong feelings about the guy. His being against a government mandate regarding gender affirming care is consistent with his earlier stance regarding free speech.

Personally, I don’t really like the government to have much say in how I provide treatment to my patients. Although I do support that some states have banned conversion therapy so I’m not completely consistent. I also think the gender affirming care being legislated could be a bit more complicated when you consider things like puberty and hormonal transition and age of majority. My patients who are transgender have different opinions and perspectives on this so I would probably push back against legislation that either mandated or prohibited what medical providers could or should do. My position at this point is to let the doctors and parents and kids figure it out and keep the politicians out of it. Some docs might say no friggin way and others might want to start hormones right away. Parents will either support kids process in a healthy way or they won’t and I don’t think anyone will change that dynamic.
I think that it's a reasonable concern that is raised and that it is important to maintain the distinction between: (1) laws that prohibit the production of certain speech that is likely to do harm (e.g., the proverbial yelling of 'fire' in a theater that is not, in fact, on fire, or making threats of violence) and (2) laws that would (or even may) compel an individual to produce speech of a certain type, down to the level of detail of mandating specific words be used in a particular interchange between two ordinary citizens having a discussion. It may have been a 'stretch' for a figure like JP to (over?)interpret the law and how it may potentially be applied that way, but I think the point (of distinction) between prohibited speech vs. compelled speech is important to bear in mind when we're talking about laws enforced by government.
 
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Systemic Racism is not a thing in America due to the Civil Rights Act of 1968. One can argue that Affirmative Action is the last shred of systemic racism in America but there are so many educational institutions in America this doesn't do much to affect the populations it hits the hardest (Asian/Indian) considering they are financially the most successful groups in America.

As for Voter Suppression its nothing more than a conspiracy theory by people like the election denying black supremacist sympathizer Stacey Abrams.

People need to understand pushing these conspiracy theories has consequences. We all saw the summer of blood of 2020 and the rise of alt left extremism. People are still rebuilding...
Lol. I'm kind of aghast at the embracement of specific talking points and the endorsement that a laws instantly crush the things they penalize. You like never see these two beliefs together...
 
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