Grade Appeal?

[purphant]

Hey guys any advice on how to appeal third year clerkship grades? It has been brought to my attention that I will fail my ob/gyn clerkship unless my grade appeal is successful. At my school we do 6 weeks of ob/gyn consisting of three 2 week mini rotations. In addition we have a small group for which we receive a grade as well as the shelf and two written h&ps. Each mini rotation counts for 20% of the final grade. Shelf is 20% of the final grade. Small group is 10% and the average h&p score counts for 10%. On my three mini rotations my grades were HP, HP/HP/P (three evals were turned in and they averaged the scores together), and HP/P (two evals were turned in and will be averaged as well). My small group grade was HP. My two h&ps were HP and Honors. My shelf grade was P. So as you can imagine I was shocked to learn that I would be failing the clerkship when I hadn't actually failed anything. They use a point system where H=4, HP=3, and P=2. So if you calculate it, my total points are 2.68. The predetermined cutoffs which I only learned of after requesting them are <2.8 Fail, 2.8 - 2.9 Pass, 2.9-3.4 High pass, >3.4 Honors. From speaking to the administration it sounds like there have been recent changes in how the grades are done. What I'd like to know is has anyone had success in appealing the cutoffs themselves rather than their evaluations? I just don't see how such a grading system is fair.

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[JJMrK]

So...you passed every component but will fail the rotation? What aren't you telling us?

 

[purphant]

So...you passed every component but will fail the rotation? What aren't you telling us?

absolutely nothing. There are no professionalism concerns. There's nothing else. If you do the calculations you see that I come to a total score of 2.68 and the rotation has set passing at 2.8. That is why I want to try and appeal the grade cutoffs themselves. You can also note that the grade cut offs are such that it is hard to pass the rotation with such a narrow margin of 2.8 to 2.9.

 

[JJMrK]

Pretty weird grading scheme. What percentage of people get a "P" on each component?

 

[purphant]

That I don't know but I'm guessing its a pretty small percentage. I'm trying to set up meetings with various administrators now where they'll probably be able to give me this information. To my knowledge this is the only clerkship that does this at my school. The grading scale is such that I imagine most people either hp or honors since its such a tight margin. For each component most people tend to get hp or honors. I tend to score lower just because I don't "play the game" well. I'm repeatedly told that I look bored or uninterested and this has followed me all year. But I've never failed because of it. And on longer rotations, I've been told by attendings that at first they thought I was uninterested but after being with me a while they realized that I'm just quiet but I am interested. Hence I do better on month long rotations, but I digress. The people who failed in the past either failed the shelf or failed some component of the clerkship. Since neither situation applies to me, I really just don't understand. From the conversations I've had thus far, no one in administration seems to take issue with the scale. But if passing is satisfactory performance, one should be able to just pass each individual component and still pass the clerkship.
The other possibility is appealing one of the passes which I have initiated since the evaluator said they don't feel they could adequately evaluate me due to limited contact. If that gets changed, I might be able to pass by their scale. However, I think I would still pursue changing the scale. Because it really makes no sense. Every student I've told has been equally confused. Then there's also the question of remediation. What would I remediate? Why should I redo rotations I didnt fail? Why should I sit for a shelf I didn't fail? Why should I redo written h&ps when I received honors and high pass? Sigh at this point I'm just trying to set up meetings and see if they'll see reason.

 

[DermViser]

Hey guys any advice on how to appeal third year clerkship grades? It has been brought to my attention that I will fail my ob/gyn clerkship unless my grade appeal is successful. At my school we do 6 weeks of ob/gyn consisting of three 2 week mini rotations. In addition we have a small group for which we receive a grade as well as the shelf and two written h&ps. Each mini rotation counts for 20% of the final grade. Shelf is 20% of the final grade. Small group is 10% and the average h&p score counts for 10%. On my three mini rotations my grades were HP, HP/HP/P (three evals were turned in and they averaged the scores together), and HP/P (two evals were turned in and will be averaged as well). My small group grade was HP. My two h&ps were HP and Honors. My shelf grade was P. So as you can imagine I was shocked to learn that I would be failing the clerkship when I hadn't actually failed anything. They use a point system where H=4, HP=3, and P=2. So if you calculate it, my total points are 2.68. The predetermined cutoffs which I only learned of after requesting them are <2.8 Fail, 2.8 - 2.9 Pass, 2.9-3.4 High pass, >3.4 Honors. From speaking to the administration it sounds like there have been recent changes in how the grades are done. What I'd like to know is has anyone had success in appealing the cutoffs themselves rather than their evaluations? I just don't see how such a grading system is fair.

So was the grading cutoff for "Pass" in the clerkship lower in the past and you were just unlucky? This is very unusual. Are you sure you aren't leaving out something?

 

[purphant]

So was the grading cutoff for "Pass" in the clerkship lower in the past and you were just unlucky? This is very unusual. Are you sure you aren't leaving out something?

The cutoff I'm not sure about. I know that it's usually hard to get a grade any higher than your shelf grade on this rotation. Idk what I could be leaving out. I met with the clerkship director for an hour yesterday. She went through the calculations and suggested I appeal the grade I referred to earlier. She didn't bring up any professionalism concerns. She went through all my individual evaluations with me. So I shouldn't be missing anything. I was upset yesterday when I learned this so I called back today to make sure I heard the cutoffs correctly and they confirmed.
In the end its the math. They set a cutoff that imo just doesn't make any sense. Because you shouldn't have to honor or high pass anything in order to just pass. It sounds like no one else has heard of this happening. So I guess I'm just going to raise a big stink over here and hope they make some changes. I swear coming to this school is my biggest regret.

 

[DermViser]

The cutoff I'm not sure about. I know that it's usually hard to get a grade any higher than your shelf grade on this rotation. Idk what I could be leaving out. I met with the clerkship director for an hour yesterday. She went through the calculations and suggested I appeal the grade I referred to earlier. She didn't bring up any professionalism concerns. She went through all my individual evaluations with me. So I shouldn't be missing anything. I was upset yesterday when I learned this so I called back today to make sure I heard the cutoffs correctly and they confirmed.
In the end its the math. They set a cutoff that imo just doesn't make any sense. Because you shouldn't have to honor or high pass anything in order to just pass. It sounds like no one else has heard of this happening. So I guess I'm just going to raise a big stink over here and hope they make some changes. I swear coming to this school is my biggest regret.

That is nuts, that you would have to get "Honors" or "High Pass" on a component just to "Pass" the entire course. Very understandably you should be upset, esp. as I'm sure you're doing all of this crap, while you're on another rotation. Just be careful and don't show any emotional response when you're presenting your case, no matter how justified it may be and make sure you have all your i's dotted and t's crossed.

 

[purphant]

Thanks

 

[Iamnotme]

Hey guys any advice on how to appeal third year clerkship grades? It has been brought to my attention that I will fail my ob/gyn clerkship unless my grade appeal is successful. At my school we do 6 weeks of ob/gyn consisting of three 2 week mini rotations. In addition we have a small group for which we receive a grade as well as the shelf and two written h&ps. Each mini rotation counts for 20% of the final grade. Shelf is 20% of the final grade. Small group is 10% and the average h&p score counts for 10%. On my three mini rotations my grades were HP, HP/HP/P (three evals were turned in and they averaged the scores together), and HP/P (two evals were turned in and will be averaged as well). My small group grade was HP. My two h&ps were HP and Honors. My shelf grade was P. So as you can imagine I was shocked to learn that I would be failing the clerkship when I hadn't actually failed anything. They use a point system where H=4, HP=3, and P=2. So if you calculate it, my total points are 2.68. The predetermined cutoffs which I only learned of after requesting them are <2.8 Fail, 2.8 - 2.9 Pass, 2.9-3.4 High pass, >3.4 Honors. From speaking to the administration it sounds like there have been recent changes in how the grades are done. What I'd like to know is has anyone had success in appealing the cutoffs themselves rather than their evaluations? I just don't see how such a grading system is fair.

That makes absolutely no sense. When I started reading your post, I said oh it's OB, the one rotation most people have grade issues with. But then I read the rest. That doesn't make sense. If you passed all the components, the least you can get is a pass. That goes without saying.

Either you are not telling us something, or something here smells fishy. If you passed everything, even if barely, then you pass. End of story. If there is something else that's an issue, please bring it up. Otherwise it's as saying, yep, I got above the passing score for step 1, but they said I still failed. Makes no sense.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I don't understand. Clearly the OP knew the stipulations going into medicine. If you aren't going to give it your all, you shouldn't be in med school to begin with. That's what mid-level schools are for.

Pretentious + arrogant. Winning formula!

 

[crimsonkid85]

The irony is that if OP got all Passes, he would have had an average of two. Which, if the cut off is really 2.68....then it means you can't pass with all Passes. lololol

I guess pass is the new fail.

They should just make it clear. Honors is the new HP, HP is the new P, and P is the new F.

 

[purphant]

Short of posting the evals themselves, idk what to do to assure yall that there is nothing else other than what I've previously posted. My first round of deans meetings start on Monday. We'll see what happens.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

They should just make it clear. Honors is the new HP, HP is the new P, and P is the new F.

I got to look at our residency applicants grades for the past couple of years since I started doing interviews.

It's insane. At some schools P is literally given to like the bottom 5% of students. There are schools with "High Honors" "Honors with distinction" "Honors" "High Pass with distinction" "High Pass" "Marginal High Pass" and "Pass"

Dean's letters are even worse with the not-secret secret code words.

I don't understand why they can't just call a spade a spade.

 

[ulikedaggers]

I got to look at our residency applicants grades for the past couple of years since I started doing interviews.

It's insane. At some schools P is literally given to like the bottom 5% of students. There are schools with "High Honors" "Honors with distinction" "Honors" "High Pass with distinction" "High Pass" "Marginal High Pass" and "Pass"

Dean's letters are even worse with the not-secret secret code words.

I don't understand why they can't just call a spade a spade.

Do PDs still drool over applicants who honored every clerkship? Or do most realize that honors doesn't mean that much at some schools?

 

[Chipster.]

The irony is that if OP got all Passes, he would have had an average of two. Which, if the cut off is really 2.68....then it means you can't pass with all Passes. lololol

I guess pass is the new fail.

They should just make it clear. Honors is the new HP, HP is the new P, and P is the new F. Orange is the new black.

^ftfy

 

[evilbooyaa]

What in the world... how do you pass everything (including getting high pass or honors on some areas) and then fail the rotation? If the attendings feel that you should fail, they should have the balls to say so. Is this grading system uniform across ALL OB rotations (or is it specific to this one hospital)? If you got a pass from everyone reviewing you, a student would fail by a huge margin. This is grade inflation at its worst, as it requires people to essentially get high passes or honors on certain evals just to pass the damn rotation.

I agree that this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I don't know what your recourse is at this point, especially if nobody can give you a reason for you to FAIL the rotation.

 

[purphant]

.

 

[crimsonkid85]

They claim that this is the standard grading scale. However, after my first round of meetings, no one has ever heard of this happening. This leads me to believe that these are either new cutoffs and I just did the worst on the rotation, or there is something very weird going on. I was pretty honest in my evaluation of the course, but I didn't name names and was polite and just had general recommendations. I'm starting to get paranoid that maybe this is retribution of some kind, but most people are honest in their evaluations. Idk I guess I'm grasping at this point.
The advice I received in my first meeting is to wait and see if one of my pass evals is dropped or changed to high pass, as I was told to challenge one of the resident's evals by the attending themself. If this were to happen I would pass the course. The admin recommended I not challenge the whole grading system until I receive a final grade. Apparently until the final grade is posted, the attending has the ability to change any and all evals they deem inaccurate/inadequate. They made it sound like if I go hard now, my grade may suffer secondary to retribution and I could even end up with a letter in my file saying I'm unprofessional and that it could make it into my dean's letter and prevent me from matching. Before going into this meeting, I had heard rumors that a student had challenged an attending's grading or claimed discrimination or something (vague ik. don't remember the details) and all his evals got "lost", so they had to write new ones and he ended up with lower grades. The admin seemed to corroborate this story and was pretty much warning me to be careful how I proceed. In short they scared me into waiting until the final grade is posted before I make my next move. I'm the only one who was on the rotation at that time that still does not have a final grade in the system. This ish is too much guys. If I wanted all this excitement and social maneuvering, I would have gone into politics (I've been watching house of cards....omg).

listen. the way to deal with this, is to take this up privately with the course director. express your concerns, and if there is one eval dinging you, tell them that you did not get along with that resident. This can happen to anyone. If the course director has ONE ounce of common sense in him/her, he would just drop the eval and pass you. do NOT go to the resident who did the eval. do NOT go to any of the other attendings. do NOT make a big stink about this. do NOT go against central administration until you know your grade submitted to the registrar. In life, there is no absolute rules. But if you make enemies, they will make it personal, and you will auto-lose.

 

[purphant]

I have done this. Please keep in mind the eval in question is a passing eval. I'll wait and see what the course director does

 

[JJMrK]

Good luck.

 

[purphant]

Just an update. The eval with pass was thrown out because the resident said in the eval that they couldn't evaluate me. So I ended up passing the course. Afterwards, I met with the admin in charge of curriculum. They're looking into the grading scale being used.

 

[colbgw02]

Good news. Just remember a sage tidbit given to me by my advisor: "the only people that care about your OB/GYN grade are OB/GYNs".

 

[DermViser]

Just an update. The eval with pass was thrown out because the resident said in the eval that they couldn't evaluate me. So I ended up passing the course. Afterwards, I met with the admin in charge of curriculum. They're looking into the grading scale being used.

Consider yourself very lucky. OB-Gyn is a notorious rotation for failing medical students. Now you know why those who can pursue other specialties other than those in the MS-3 year.

 

[purphant]

Last update. Admin spoke to clerkship director and asked for a grade review of all students. Was notified that for me and me alone a mistake was made in the grade cutoffs, and they wrongly threatened me with failure. My grade will now be changed to high pass.

 

[DermViser]

Last update. Admin spoke to clerkship director and asked for a grade review of all students. Was notified that for me and me alone a mistake was made in the grade cutoffs, and they wrongly threatened me with failure. My grade will now be changed to high pass.

AWESOME!!! So happy for you for fighting hard and winning against the system! High Pass is an excellent grade to get on OB-GYN (a notoriously malignant specialty)

 

[Serous Demilune]

AWESOME!!! So happy for you for fighting hard and winning against the system! High Pass is an excellent grade to get on OB-GYN (a notoriously malignant specialty)

Wow DermViser I've never seen you this cheerful. Did you finally get lucky?

 

[DermViser]

Wow DermViser I've never seen you this cheerful. Did you finally get lucky?

Unless you're done an MS-3 rotation in OB-Gyn, you have no idea of the malignant personalities of OB-Gyn residents that terrorize medical students. Now go scamper off and study Biochem troll.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Unless you're done an MS-3 rotation in OB-Gyn, you have no idea of the malignant personalities of OB-Gyn residents that terrorize medical students. Now go scamper off and study Biochem troll.

Ah there he is. Glad to see you're back to normal.