Grade level within the VA

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Anxiety

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Can someone explain to me how the grade level system works within the VA? I have a few questions.

1. I heard that if you do a VA internship, you start at GS-11, postdoc GS-12, and then upon licensure you become GS-13. Is that ever true and if so, in what state(s)?

2. If I do a military internship, I would be an officer (captain). At the end of my contract (4-5 years), if I wanted to work at the VA, what grade level would I start at?

3. If I did an APA-accredited internship at a non-VA site and then applied to a VA as a staff psychologist after licensure, what grade level would I start at?

4. How long does it take from GS-11 to get to GS-15?

Thank you.


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Anxiety said:
Can someone explain to me how the grade level system works within the VA? I have a few questions.

1. I heard that if you do a VA internship, you start at GS-11, postdoc GS-12, and then upon licensure you become GS-13. Is that ever true and if so, in what state(s)?

2. If I do a military internship, I would be an officer (captain). At the end of my contract (4-5 years), if I wanted to work at the VA, what grade level would I start at?

3. If I did an APA-accredited internship at a non-VA site and then applied to a VA as a staff psychologist after licensure, what grade level would I start at?

4. How long does it take from GS-11 to get to GS-15?

Thank you.


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1. No. internship and post doc are paid stipends that have nothing to do with, and no correspond with the GS pay scale.

2. 13 step 3, possibly step 4.

3. 12, then up to 13 when you reach 2 years from degree conferral.

4. Step 14 and 15 are leadership and supervisory positions. Staff psychologists with no supervisory duties top out at 13, step 10.
 
erg923 said:
1. No. internship and post doc are paid stipends that have nothing to do with, and no correspond with the GS pay scale.

2. 13 step 3, possibly step 4.

3. 12, then up to 13 when you reach 2 years from degree conferral.

4. Step 14 and 15 are leadership and supervisory positions. Staff psychologists with no supervisory duties top out at 13, step 10.
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To add to this, you don't advance between grades over time, that's steps. Grades are assigned to each specific job or job type by OPM and you don't advance in grade by staying in the same position over several years. You have to apply for and be accepted for a new position that has been set at a higher grade. One of the few exceptions is licensure, as Erg noted.

Advancing between steps 1, 2, 3, & 4 take one year each, between 4, 5, 6, & 7 take two years each, and 7, 8, 9, & 10 take 3 years each. Thus, if you started at step 1 in any grade, it would take 18 years to get to 10, though you don't necessarily have to start at step 1.

Also, there are locality pay rates, meaning that you get paid more or less depending on the set region where you work.
 
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For #1, I think what you are asking are the pay grades if you got a VA job after completing each, correct? For example, if you get a VA job straight out of internship, you start at G11. If you get the job immediately after post doc (pre-licensure), you start at G12. Then, upon licensure, you bump to G13. This is all true, however, I was speaking with a current VA employee who did a non-APA accredited VA internship, and he told me he cannot get to G13, even after licensure. Not sure of the accuracy of that statement (he recently got licensed).
 
You start at GS11 if you go in straight after internship. GS12 is when you have one year of post-degree experience, and postdoc can count as that year. GS13 is when you have two years of post-degree experience. If you do a two-year postdoc (e.g., neuro), then you can go straight to GS13. Even if you're licensed before your postdoc ends, you still have to do a year at GS12. I'm currently a fully licensed GS12, and I'll move up to GS13 once I have a full year in grade. To get 12 or 13, you need either a year at the previous level or equivalent experience. That means your internship and postdoc don't have to be in the VA to start at the higher level (although having VA experience does make you a more attractive candidate). GS14 and GS15 are for supervisory positions like head of a department or mental health executive staff. This doesn't vary by state as the VA is a federal agency. If you're interested in what types of jobs are available at each level, check out the usajobs.gov website and look around.
 
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123EW said:
For #1, I think what you are asking are the pay grades if you got a VA job after completing each, correct? For example, if you get a VA job straight out of internship, you start at G11. If you get the job immediately after post doc (pre-licensure), you start at G12. Then, upon licensure, you bump to G13. This is all true, however, I was speaking with a current VA employee who did a non-APA accredited VA internship, and he told me he cannot get to G13, even after licensure. Not sure of the accuracy of that statement (he recently got licensed).
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I've never heard this, as a non-APA accredited VA internship (so long as it's in good standing) is essentially interchangeable with an accredited internship as far as the VA is concerned. Sounds like it's a misunderstanding either by that employee, his supervisors/credential review panel, or his HR department.

Edit: To the OP, as others have said, whether or not internship/postdoc/work experience is with the VA doesn't impact your grade; that's based solely on years of post-licensure experience and licensing status. If the work experience is non-VA, then they'll attempt to "match" it via your incoming step; this is sometimes negotiable (particularly in high-need areas) and sometimes not. What a VA internship and/or postdoc does impact is your rate of annual leave accrual (which bumps up from 4 hours/pay period to 6 hours/pay period after 3 years). You generally can also carry over sick and annual leave earned while on internship and postdoc to permanent staff positions (the former is more difficult and requires more HR know-how than the latter).
 
123EW said:
I was speaking with a current VA employee who did a non-APA accredited VA internship, and he told me he cannot get to G13, even after licensure. Not sure of the accuracy of that statement (he recently got licensed).
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Then the person is (or was) not working as a psychologist-Must be working under a LCSW or other masters level license, as masters practitioners typically top out at GS 12.

A psychologist is a psychologist is a psychologist in the VA. 2 years post degree and a doctoral license as psychologist is always GS 13.
 
erg923 said:
Then the person is not working as a psychologist. Must be working under a LCSW or other masters level license, as these practitioner typically top out at GS 12.
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Hadn't thought of that, but possibly also true, especially if the person essentially can't get licensed at the doctoral level because of their unaccredited internship (which would be somewhat unusual if it were at the VA).
 
AcronymAllergy said:
You generally can also carry over sick and annual leave earned while on internship and postdoc to permanent staff positions (the former is more difficult and requires more HR know-how than the latter).
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Unless you have a gap in between. They're really cracking down on people going on leave without pay after training positions. If you have a gap, they pay out your annual leave balance, but you keep your sick leave. You also get to keep your service time, as in you only have to do one more year before your rate of leave accrual increases (assuming you did both internship and postdoc in the VA) rather than starting over.
 
I'm not sure of the specifics. Non-accredited PsyD program, non-accredited VA internship. It could be that they were hired on as an LPC. Or maybe they are in for a nice surprise with their next paycheck.
 
123EW said:
I'm not sure of the specifics. Non-accredited PsyD program, non-accredited VA internship. It could be that they were hired on as an LPC. Or maybe they are in for a nice surprise with their next paycheck.
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If he's still within two years of graduation, then he won't go up to 13 just for getting licensed. You still have to have two full years of post-graduation experience to qualify for GS13, regardless of licensure status. I've been licensed since October, but I'm still GS12 because I graduated less than two years ago. Although, it's my understanding that graduation from an APA-accredited program is a requirement for employment as a VA psychologist, so perhaps he is working under a master's-level license.
 
eremitestar said:
If he's still within two years of graduation, then he won't go up to 13 just for getting licensed. You still have to have two full years of post-graduation experience to qualify for GS13, regardless of licensure status. I've been licensed since October, but I'm still GS12 because I graduated less than two years ago. Although, it's my understanding that graduation from an APA-accredited program is a requirement for employment as a VA psychologist, so perhaps he is working under a master's-level license.
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Yeah, the non-accredited internship is less of an issue here (as it was VA) than the non-accredited doctoral program. I'd be surprised if he weren't hired in to a master's-level position.

And good point RE: break in service and leave transfer.
 
I did internship and over a year of post doc in the VA. I'll be starting a staff position at GS12 step 1. I get to keep my leave but I won't have a break in service.
 
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Is there any compensation benefit for someone seeking out a neuro VAMC postdoc to obtain licensure immediately after internship?


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briarcliff said:
Is there any compensation benefit for someone seeking out a neuro VAMC postdoc to obtain licensure immediately after internship?


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No. Your post-doc salary is what it is, license or no license.
 
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It's also worth noting that if a job is posted at GS-12 (and not GS-12/GS-13), then it is classified *only* as a GS-12, so having the requisite experience for GS-13 doesn't matter for that specific position because it was created to only be a GS-12 position.
 
How does one find a "graduate psychologist" (unlicensed) position at the VA if you're currently completing a VA internship? Most of the usajobs postings are staff psychologist positions with a GS-12/13 level.
 
tartar said:
How does one find a "graduate psychologist" (unlicensed) position at the VA if you're currently completing a VA internship? Most of the usajobs postings are staff psychologist positions with a GS-12/13 level.
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Just depends on how it's posted. Some do not want to have to deal with the hassle of having another psychologist sign off on your notes, so they will not post it as such. Probably a better chance of these positions at undesirable locations due to hard to fill spots.
 
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tartar said:
How does one find a "graduate psychologist" (unlicensed) position at the VA if you're currently completing a VA internship? Most of the usajobs postings are staff psychologist positions with a GS-12/13 level.
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The job announcement will have to have GS-11 in it. Sometimes listed as 11/12/13.
 
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Thank you both for your responses! I would like to stay with the VA as I'm really happy there and love the population. I've applied to VA postdocs and my TD has encouraged me to also try to look for graduate psychologist positions but I've yet to find one.
 
tartar said:
Thank you both for your responses! I would like to stay with the VA as I'm really happy there and love the population. I've applied to VA postdocs and my TD has encouraged me to also try to look for graduate psychologist positions but I've yet to find one.
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you can customize your search on USAjobs.gove to search for GS-11 positions only.
 
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AcronymAllergy said:
Like WisNeuro, I know of folks who've started at higher steps. I'm sure there are even a handful at my clinic, although I've never directly asked, as there are a few folks who came to VA later in their careers.
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Yeah, definitely late career folks. AA and I only know of one person who successfully negotiated a step increase straight out of postdoc, but it was for a VA that was desperate to get someone on board.
 
Does anyone know which is the highest grade and step a psychologist (over the course of one's career) go on the GS scale? I heard there was a ceiling for psychologists at GS 14-10, but I don't know how true that is.
 
psychstudent5 said:
Does anyone know which is the highest grade and step a psychologist (over the course of one's career) go on the GS scale? I heard there was a ceiling for psychologists at GS 14-10, but I don't know how true that is.
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Highest for a non-supervisory (team lead/director) role is GS-13/10. If you are a section lead or something, you can get to 14. You need to be a higher level exec to get to 15.
 
WisNeuro said:
Highest for a non-supervisory (team lead/director) role is GS-13/10. If you are a section lead or something, you can get to 14. You need to be a higher level exec to get to 15.
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This is also my understanding.

That is one of the frustrations w the VA is how quickly you top out in a clinical position (assuming you come in at GS-13 bc of fellowship).
 
WisNeuro said:
Highest for a non-supervisory (team lead/director) role is GS-13/10. If you are a section lead or something, you can get to 14. You need to be a higher level exec to get to 15.
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by "non-supervisory (team lead/director) role" do you mean chief of psychology services or is that considered "higher level exec"? i'm trying to understand which specific job titles would fall under theseterms.
 
psychstudent5 said:
by "non-supervisory (team lead/director) role" do you mean chief of psychology services or is that considered "higher level exec"? i'm trying to understand which specific job titles would fall under theseterms.
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Chief of psych would be a 14 role. You need to be on upper level hospital executive staff to be a 15.
 
psych.meout said:
It takes 18 years to get from steps 1 to 10.
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If you do not receive any extra increases. Some VAs (hit or miss) will give you an automatic step for things like board certification, or due to big contributions from things like research and teaching. I definitely would not count on these things, but they exist at some places, although it changes depending on medical director, who ultimately decides on such things.
 
So, the assistant chief of MH services at the local VA got a hold of my CV and called to set up an interview, which seemed like it went well. I'm waiting to hear something and assume it may take a while. There was no job posting--is this what you mean by a direct hire? In that case, should I try to negotiate loan repayment if I get an offer? I would start right out of internship, so I assume I would be GS-11 step 1, but there has been no discussion of grade, etc. Is there anything else I should ask about? I would hate to miss out for lack of asking.
 
If it's a direct hire, there may be more flexibility. So you can certainly ask about loan repayment and relocation expenses (if applicable). If it's an assessment-heavy role you'll be filling, you can also check in on what your initial ordering budget would be. That may not be negotiable, but it's good information to have.
 
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Bag of Owls said:
So, the assistant chief of MH services at the local VA got a hold of my CV and called to set up an interview, which seemed like it went well. I'm waiting to hear something and assume it may take a while. There was no job posting--is this what you mean by a direct hire? In that case, should I try to negotiate loan repayment if I get an offer? I would start right out of internship, so I assume I would be GS-11 step 1, but there has been no discussion of grade, etc. Is there anything else I should ask about? I would hate to miss out for lack of asking.
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Ask about it for sure before accepting an offer. I know that in my area, they only offer it for harder to fill spots and then they list it in the job ad.
 
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Bag of Owls said:
So, the assistant chief of MH services at the local VA got a hold of my CV and called to set up an interview, which seemed like it went well. I'm waiting to hear something and assume it may take a while. There was no job posting--is this what you mean by a direct hire? In that case, should I try to negotiate loan repayment if I get an offer? I would start right out of internship, so I assume I would be GS-11 step 1, but there has been no discussion of grade, etc. Is there anything else I should ask about? I would hate to miss out for lack of asking.
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I would absolutely discuss loan repayment. In most cases, it needs to be in the job posting, but since you didn't have one, you should try to negotiate for it. It is the same in my area - offered for harder to fill positions.
 
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WisNeuro said:
If you do not receive any extra increases. Some VAs (hit or miss) will give you an automatic step for things like board certification, or due to big contributions from things like research and teaching. I definitely would not count on these things, but they exist at some places, although it changes depending on medical director, who ultimately decides on such things.
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Also depends on the budget/deficit/surplus of the individual VA if they have the funding for special achievements.
 
Thanks for all the replies! I'll be sure to ask about loan repayment but won't feel injured if it's not available. Maybe the fact that there would be no relocation expenses will work in my favor. Good suggestion about the ordering budget! I hadn't thought of that at all, but it's very relevant.
 
psych.meout said:
To add to this, you don't advance between grades over time, that's steps. Grades are assigned to each specific job or job type by OPM and you don't advance in grade by staying in the same position over several years. You have to apply for and be accepted for a new position that has been set at a higher grade. One of the few exceptions is licensure, as Erg noted.

Advancing between steps 1, 2, 3, & 4 take one year each, between 4, 5, 6, & 7 take two years each, and 7, 8, 9, & 10 take 3 years each. Thus, if you started at step 1 in any grade, it would take 18 years to get to 10, though you don't necessarily have to start at step 1.
Also, there are locality pay rates, meaning that you get paid more or less depending on the set region where you work.
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Woo, why does the time between steps increase thevlonger you work at the VA? Three years between a steps is a lot of time. Is the income increase multiplied? I will goigle the pay charts. If it is the same rate of increase as in 1, 3, 3, and 4, that seems a bit harsh to wait so long for the same amount of income increase. Am I
missing something?
 
I was a direct hire and I didn't get a step increase (despite having around 1.5 years of fellowship)
 
cara susanna said:
I was a direct hire and I didn't get a step increase (despite having around 1.5 years of fellowship)
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Did they at least start you at GS-12 and move you to GS-13 after a year? That's what I've gathered is standard.

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It's hard to negotiate, but it's possible.

On the flipside, it's difficult for them to deny you a certain grade when you have the experience. I was 1.5 years post PhD when I started My VA career, and they initially tried to start me to GS 12 step 1 (I was licensed). I told them to think again! I then got a GS 12 step 6. Then 5-6months later 13.

I think the slow down in step increases after three years at GS 13 definitely puts a damper on things. I am now 3.5 years VA career and could easily move elsewhere, although I don't want to within traditional clinical service roles. Some of this is shifting professional interests and some of it is financially related. It's probably both equally.
 
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blueslily said:
Woo, why does the time between steps increase thevlonger you work at the VA? Three years between a steps is a lot of time. Is the income increase multiplied? I will goigle the pay charts. If it is the same rate of increase as in 1, 3, 3, and 4, that seems a bit harsh to wait so long for the same amount of income increase. Am I
missing something?
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I'm not sure exactly why it's structured that way (maybe to incentivize staying the first few years at the beginning and then get people to stay 20 years before getting their pensions?), but the increases are fairly consistent between steps.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2017/general-schedule/
 
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