Grade Negotiating

[0Complications]

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Yeah I am with you, it's a little below the belt and I would hate for it to happen to anyone. But I don't see how it's unethical. Most of communication is nonverbal, which is why you should listen to more than the words being said. "Letter of recommendation" is used more often than w/"Letter of evaluation" but they are supposed to be synonymous. Maybe a professor can comment

It is lying if they say yes to a "strong" letter request and write a bad letter. There isn't too much gray area there. I know what you're saying though and your argument is logical.

I also agree with the body language part, the only person who's body language I couldn't read was my PI's, but he has told me in the past that he won't write LOR's if he can't write good ones, so that alleviated my concern. Body language is the only thing I look for. I'm pretty certain that I don't even hear their initial response because I'm so intent on the body language being portrayed.

Solid advice.

 

[Perdoc]

Interesting replies. To those who mentioned it, I'm definitely not the typical premed doing anything for grades...probably the exact opposite lol. Anyways, I decided I'm not going to argue any of my grades this semester. I don't go to office hours because I usually like to figure stuff out on my own or use the internet to clarify things. But next semester I have some harder courses and going to office hours will definitely show the prof the effort I put in, plus he'll be able to write a stronger LOR.

 

[0Complications]

Interesting replies. To those who mentioned it, I'm definitely not the typical premed doing anything for grades...probably the exact opposite lol. Anyways, I decided I'm not going to argue any of my grades this semester. I don't go to office hours because I usually like to figure stuff out on my own or use the internet to clarify things. But next semester I have some harder courses and going to office hours will definitely show the prof the effort I put in, plus he'll be able to write a stronger LOR.

Don't just use office hours to talk about your problems. This is a common misconception. Use them to discuss your professors research, education, likes/dislikes, your interests, what you like about the course, what you would like to know that's not taught in the course, etc. I look as office hours as a way to take my education beyond the textbook and explore their relationship to things going on around us everyday, at least as they relate to their class. Once you get to know them they become more of a social visit. I chatted up one of my LOR writers the other day about everything ranging from her child to what research she's currently running and everything in between. We probably shot the **** for an hour and a half. She's a great lady and I just find it interesting to talk to her.

 

[mallard]

If its a prof that you think may write you an LOR then.. pick your battles
If not, I'd say go for it but DO NOT press the issue. Unless you have valid reasons for changing the grade (i.e. incorrect addition, participation, upward trend) I would tend to doubt the professor would even consider it. And most are on their high horses and like things their way and thats it.

Example: Biochem 2 at my school is much harder than biochem 1... biochem 1 had a nice curve that scaled maybe a 88-100 as a solid A. I figured the same with biochem 2 or at least no curve at all. When my 94% was an A- I went to argue and all the professor said was after people did so well on the final (80 avg) we set the scale to 95 for an A. I knew in my mind this was bull**** and even the other professor that taught part of the section knew, but there was no convincing this professor and all my arguing did was piss him off. Moral of the story.. pick your battles wisely and prevent a bad reputation from floating around the department of your major for arguing a single grade that will likely not matter in the long run

 

[drizzt3117]

i think it's fair if you offer to do extra credit or help the professor out, not just ask for charity.

My professors seemed pretty willing to raise my grades when I said I could help them out with their mortgages...

 

[virusgirl]

My experiences with grading involve high school rather than college students, but I will say that the only time when I would be willing to change a student's grade is if I have made a grading error.

When I grade assignments, I don't do a half-assed job where 75% of my attention is actually diverted to watching Battlestar Galactica. I grade problem by problem instead of student by student to ensure that I'm awarding/subtracting points consistently. I make a serious effort to grade fairly, and if a student were to ask me for a grade change simply because it will help them get into college (or med school) I would say no (and be pretty peeved, and find it harder to write a positive LOR if I were so asked).

Now, if a student has a reason why they had performed poorly on a test or assignment (i.e. was very ill, death in the family, etc.), I am willing to take that into account, but even then, I will not actually change a grade. Rather, I am willing to give the student another test or assignment so that they can prove to me that they are capable of earning the grade they feel they deserve, and if they accomplish that, I will downweight the original score.

Personally, I would never dream of asking a professor to change a grade as a favor to me. The only time I asked was when I discovered a serious grading error that took me from an A- to a solid B (answer was right, but prof had forgotten to write the number of points in the margin and so didn't add them). I prefer to get the best grades I can on my own steam and be the sort of student my professors will remember positively when I ask them for LORs.

 

[vickpick]

i personally would never resort to cheating as that is what I think of your suggestion, a way of getting an unfair unadvantage which others in the class won't resort to.

 

[virusgirl]

i personally would never resort to cheating as that is what I think of your suggestion, a way of getting an unfair unadvantage which others in the class won't resort to.

How do you figure? If a student bombs an exam because they are distracted by the recent death of a loved one, for example, they were at a significant disadvantage relative to other students. I don't hand out points like candy; if a student has truly extenuating circumstances regarding a single test or assignment, this gives them the chance to show that their one poor grade was the result of those circumstances and not a lack of understanding.

 

[235009]

i was always of the belief that grades were based on performance and not effort. the sense of entitlement that some posters on here have shown is absolutely disgusting. who cares how much effort you put into a class...the point is to learn the material. Your knowledge is tested on quizes, homeworks and exams and the evaluation is the same for everyone.

this thread demonstrates yet another reason why MCAT should get more weight than GPA....and from the AAMC stats it seems like it does...and rightfully so

 

[gonj]

Negotiating grades is a sleazy tactic, IMO.

I understand the motivation, but it's still sleazy.

 

[Steeler7588]

They generally agree they will scale up grades for students that have been coming to class, asking questions, going to office hours, and showing a genuine concern for the class.

Why should they give a ****? Didn't this "A for effort" stuff end in elementary school?

Look, there's a wide range of situations that might end up in a student asking for a higher grade. If your professor / TA made a mistake in grading, then you should obviously get that corrected. Now, I only like that when it's an objective grading system, when you get into subjective grading of essays, etc. it becomes a lot murkier and I'm generally uncomfortable with asking for a regrade on that. If you experienced an illness or personal tragedy, I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for an assignment for extra credit or something. All of this should be done as it happens in the semester, not at the very end when you realize you've missed the cut.

But you feel like you should get extra points because you "tried hard"? You came to class, you asked questions, you went to office hours. That extra effort is already reflected in your grade. If you didn't get the grade you wanted after all that, well, **** happens. You should move on.

But hey, premeds will be premeds, I guess...

 

[Ann Chovie]

I agree with skinMD... You don't need four strikes or a 99 yard football field - Just provide a level playing field for everyone, which the MCAT already does...

 

[IDoIt4Love]

I was about to get a B- in biochem, but I made a strong argument for a B after the final(didn't even go into office hours; just emailed her), and I got one! She was a brand new prof and had a lot of um...teaching issues, which I reminded her of. She bumped up a lot of people though; I think it was mainly because she didn't do a very good job of teaching (at all).

 

[Mattabet]

I had a prelawyer friend in undergrad who was an adept grade negotiator. He'd be in to the TA's office hours several times a quarter trying to get that B bumped up to a B+ (or A-, or A... although he would leave the As alone...). Of course, it's totally not my style, and I wouldn't take a position one way or another on the 'ethics' of it (as it is ultimately the teacher's grade to give), but you kind of had to admire him.

Of course, for the lawyers out there, arguing someone into agreement with you is kind of a victory in and of itself, the better grade is just gravy. So for those that decry the system; it could be worse, you could be up against pre-laws.

 

[Jli]

So I was talking to a friend of mine about how I got a B+ in a class and needed just 1% more to get an A- and she told me how professors sometimes will bump up your grade if you go and see them after the exam and explain your situation. I've never tried this but it sounds like it would be helpful if you're very close to a higher letter grade that you think you deserve. Does this happen a lot or only in special cases? Anyone ever do this? If it matters, this is at a Canadian university.

some professor grade tests really fast especially essay ones, I confronted my professor that i didnt agree with my C+ grade and i told him about me trying to get into medical school and i can't afford to get this grade as an grade. So, he looked over my test and gave me a B+ after rereading everything. Its always worth a try, its not like it going to hurt right?

 

[vickpick]

How do you figure? If a student bombs an exam because they are distracted by the recent death of a loved one, for example, they were at a significant disadvantage relative to other students. I don't hand out points like candy; if a student has truly extenuating circumstances regarding a single test or assignment, this gives them the chance to show that their one poor grade was the result of those circumstances and not a lack of understanding.

Oh, I see, so if I have a serious problem in my family, I must forget what I've learned in the past years and let a patient die? And that would be significantly ethical?

I don't see how a death in the family would affect your overall grade, maybe one test grade by a few points. The difference between a grade w/o much studying and w/ studying is usually no more than 10 points if the student has been doing well in the class - and that is since, the last few points of a test are the hardest to get (and thus require studying).

 

[wwdaffodils]

vickpick- Have you ever had a loved one die? Experience it, and seriously, your entire world comes crashing down- the last thing you're thinking about is schoolwork.

 

[Mattabet]

😕 I don't see how arguing would be effective. If I were in the teacher's shoes and someone started arguing with me I would tell them to GTFO 😀 The only time I had a teacher offer to round up an 89, they came up with the idea on their own, and I honestly was not trying to angle the conversation in that direction--just trying to understand what I was missing. No idea how to reproduce this scenario but it seems to be the way to do it haha

Sorry, by way of clarification, I should mention that I meant 'arguing' in the sense that lawyers use it, ie presentation of evidence, logic, closing argument, et al. I'm guessing he wasn't angrily arguing. Then again, I never actually watched it happen...

To the couple directly above, and I'll mention that I may be biased biased because I spent last semester as an associate lecturer, I think it's important to draw the distinction of who may be compromising ethics. As a student, it is your prerogative to advocate on your own behalf. It is never unethical, in my opinion, to ask that your grade be raised (no matter what the reason or lack thereof). It is, however, unethical for the lecturer or prof to raise that grade in a manner that it unfair to other students (which boils down to a lot of subjective interpretations).

But make no mistake, it is the lecturer's grade to give, and your right to inquire about it. Short of threats, bribery, or other academic misconduct, any discussion about a grade on the part of a student does not constitute an unethical behavior.

 

[tdittyx2x3]

I don't have time to read the whole thread right now, but I tried this my last semester at school in a class where I actually earned an A- but was reduced to a B+ due to a strict attendance policy (for an 8am class).

No it didn't work and I completely regret it. I doubt I'll be seeing him again anytime soon, but it ruined any kind of positive relationship I had with the (really cool) professor. I will NOT be trying this in medical school.

 

[da8s0859q]

One thing which is amusing about these getting-grade-bumped threads: holy hell, it brings out some interesting moral self-righteousness.

I have done what this thread is about on a handful of occasions, and through my undergrad, I had about a 60% success rate. In my opinion, a lot of it is in the phrasing -- I would think that it's easier to work with a student who wants to put in extra work for a fraction of one point than it is to just give a point to someone who feels as if they deserve it.

And the rest, well, hinges on whether you've been being a good little academician.

Maybe I just lucked out with some really understanding science profs, but save for a laugh or two at my expense, most of them were rather understanding. I was always there, always doing what you'd expect an A-seeking student would do, and made damn sure to never feel, or speak as if, I was entitled to an A if I landed an 89% in a traditional 90%-100% course.

Theoretically, an "A" is excellent; a "B", good; a "C", just average; and so on. If "average" is a bunch of people who attend halfheartedly, clearly put little time into what they're doing, and show no real concern for the course and beyond, then hey, that's your average. Those who are there taking notes without fail, clearly invest a significant amount of time and effort in the material, and obviously have a good head on their shoulders as far as all things academia are concerned should be weighted accordingly.

I've had more than a few PhDs state this as their opinion early on in classes in one way or another, no doubt for our benefit as students.

 

[Quix]

I hate, *hate*, HATE it when students ask for grade bumps. I put "Do not ask for grade bumps" in my syllabus. I don't care what grade you think you deserve, and grades aren't objects of negotiations. If you didn't earn the points, you didn't earn the points.

 

[vickpick]

vickpick- Have you ever had a loved one die? Experience it, and seriously, your entire world comes crashing down- the last thing you're thinking about is schoolwork.

yeap, cried a lot for a day, still did not miss 1 day of school... I guess, school was my way of escape from reality..

 

[vickpick]

Way to go Quix! That's way what we need in this nation of deteriorating education.

 

[futureboy]

I don't see a problem with asking for extra points as long as it's based on your understanding of the material (should get partial credit because you understood how to do the problem, but made a computation mistake).

Also, I would always verify the professor's math on the point totals. I had a premed ex who had a 4.0 her whole college career, but got a B in a class in her last semester. From what she said, the B didn't make sense, but she didn't want to say anything. I talked her into seeing the professor. Sure enough, he make a dumb math error, and she had actually gotten an A, and she kept her 4.0. I figure she still owes me. She's a psychiatrist now, so I should get a free office visit or something... 🙂

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I don't see why someone should get a grade bump for putting in more effort than others. The grades are based on your performance on quizzes, exams, etc. I mean, if there was an error in the calculation of your grade, definitely inquire about it.

But I definitely do not get why attending every lecture, going to office hours, etc. means you should get a grade bump. Also, about extenuating circumstances such as a loved one dying, why would you take the exam in the first place? I know you can get out of an exam due to such extenuating cirumstances at my university and I feel that most places/professors would be fine with prorating an exam or letting you take it at another time. While I understand that losing a loved one, etc. is a trying experience (and am glad I haven't had to go through something like that so far), I don't get why you would go ahead and take the exam anyways. It just doesn't make sense to me. Or am I looking at all this wrong? 😕

 

[235009]

Negotiating grades is a sleazy tactic, IMO.

I understand the motivation, but it's still sleazy.

Why should they give a ****? Didn't this "A for effort" stuff end in elementary school?

Look, there's a wide range of situations that might end up in a student asking for a higher grade. If your professor / TA made a mistake in grading, then you should obviously get that corrected. Now, I only like that when it's an objective grading system, when you get into subjective grading of essays, etc. it becomes a lot murkier and I'm generally uncomfortable with asking for a regrade on that. If you experienced an illness or personal tragedy, I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for an assignment for extra credit or something. All of this should be done as it happens in the semester, not at the very end when you realize you've missed the cut.

But you feel like you should get extra points because you "tried hard"? You came to class, you asked questions, you went to office hours. That extra effort is already reflected in your grade. If you didn't get the grade you wanted after all that, well, **** happens. You should move on.

But hey, premeds will be premeds, I guess...

I agree with skinMD... You don't need four strikes or a 99 yard football field - Just provide a level playing field for everyone, which the MCAT already does...

😀

i love when i open flood gates like this

some professor grade tests really fast especially essay ones, I confronted my professor that i didnt agree with my C+ grade and i told him about me trying to get into medical school and i can't afford to get this grade as an grade. So, he looked over my test and gave me a B+ after rereading everything. Its always worth a try, its not like it going to hurt right?

you and people like you are the worst ever....i avoid them like the plague


oh and to the person who said something about moral self-righteousness.... opposing this sleazy practice isn't an example of that

 

[virusgirl]

Oh, I see, so if I have a serious problem in my family, I must forget what I've learned in the past years and let a patient die? And that would be significantly ethical?

This is absurd. Since patient treatment isn't something that you can redo, you would have to honestly ask yourself before treatment if you are able to treat patients to the best of your abilities. If you can, then go ahead. If you can't, you hand off your patients to someone else and deal with your grief. I would be shocked and amazed (and a little disgusted) if my doctor said to me "I just found out my husband died in a car accident, but that won't prevent me from giving your treatment my full attention."

I don't see how a death in the family would affect your overall grade, maybe one test grade by a few points. The difference between a grade w/o much studying and w/ studying is usually no more than 10 points if the student has been doing well in the class - and that is since, the last few points of a test are the hardest to get (and thus require studying).

You have misunderstood my post. I do NOT change overall grades after they have been determined. If, while the course is ongoing, a student really screws up one test or assignment due to significant extenuating circumstances (like a death in the family), I will give them another opportunity for them to show me what they've learned when they are in a better position to demonstrate that.

Vickpick, it's pretty obvious to me that people do not do their best work when they are extremely ill, experiencing acute grief, etc. If your ability to study is in no way impaired when someone you love dies or you are vomiting every 10 minutes and get no sleep, then I congratulate you on your superhuman strength. For the rest of us mere mortals, **** happens. Recognizing this is not, in any way, cheating.