Grading at competitive schools?

[SpaceHamsterBoo]

I've heard that at the top schools such as UC/Cornell/Penn/etc that grades are distributed based on percentages. For example, in an organic class there are 200 students. Imagine for the first exam, the scores breakdown as such:
100 - 10 students
92 - 50 students
85 - 100 students
70 - 40 students

I've been told, it doesn't matter if you get a 90 or above. I've heard the professors will limit the number of A's by only giving an A to the top 10 or top 5%. Is this true?

What happens in a class of 30 incredibly motivated people where there ONLY ARE grades in the 90-100 range? Do the 90s get Fs to Cs while the top 99-100% scores get As?

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[Sophocles]

So I believe what you're referring to is the curve system at these schools. For instance, at Columbia we had the average physics quiz at 91%, but that doesn't mean that most of them got A's. Most of our classes are curved, which means that we compete against each other all the time and the grades are relative to the class. You're right, at least in our school, there are a certain number of A's, a certain number of B's/C's, with hardly any D's or F's. Usually you have to score in the 40's or lower consistently, but that also makes it really difficult to get A's or B+'s.

 

[Sophocles]

I've heard that at the top schools such as UC/Cornell/Penn/etc that grades are distributed based on percentages. For example, in an organic class there are 200 students. Imagine for the first exam, the scores breakdown as such:
100 - 10 students
92 - 50 students
85 - 100 students
70 - 40 students

I've been told, it doesn't matter if you get a 90 or above. I've heard the professors will limit the number of A's by only giving an A to the top 10 or top 5%. Is this true?

What happens in a class of 30 incredibly motivated people where there ONLY ARE grades in the 90-100 range? Do the 90s get Fs to Cs while the top 99-100% scores get As?

People in the lower half will score between C- to B-. When classes are curved, at least in my experience, the instructor doesn't usually fail the students unless they really deserve it.

 

[Praefectus]

That would suck. If you do well on a raw score basis, why should the curve hurt you? It should only be there to help.

 

[Kaputt]

I always heard that at top universities there was rampant grade inflation.

 

[pasiley]

I always heard that at top universities there was rampant grade inflation.

It is at some like Harvard for example but others it really isn't.

I went to a "public ivy" (I hate that term) and there was no inflation but now I go to a no-name lower tier school and not only are the courses easier, there is more grade inflation.

You can't make broad statements about grade inflation that higher ranked schools have more or that lower ranked schools have more. It varies from school to school.

The one thing that is true though is that competition in competitive schools is stiffer. So even if your noncompetitive schools has grade deflation, odds are you can probably still come out of it with a decent GPA. The same cannot be said about competitive schools.

 

[Hemorrage]

They have the policy your referring to at my school. Basically the way it works is no matter what the average is or what you got individually, the top 5-10% of the class only will get between A- and A. So say the average on a quiz was 85. The A's are distributed by percentage of top scores rather than average

 

[NickNaylor]

I've heard that at the top schools such as UC/Cornell/Penn/etc that grades are distributed based on percentages. For example, in an organic class there are 200 students. Imagine for the first exam, the scores breakdown as such:
100 - 10 students
92 - 50 students
85 - 100 students
70 - 40 students

I've been told, it doesn't matter if you get a 90 or above. I've heard the professors will limit the number of A's by only giving an A to the top 10 or top 5%. Is this true?

What happens in a class of 30 incredibly motivated people where there ONLY ARE grades in the 90-100 range? Do the 90s get Fs to Cs while the top 99-100% scores get As?

This is called grading on a curve, and it tends to happen at places that practice grade deflation. Very quantitatively minded professors also tend to do this as they see it as "fair." In this system the numerical grade is unimportant - your performance relative to your peers are all that matters. In your example, the lowest performing students (even if they score numerically well) will still get low final grades. In reality, though, I can't imagine that this would actually happen. No matter how easy a class is, there will still be people that manage to do poorly.

(sent from my phone)

 

[Joesmoe2]

At my bio class at Penn, the top 15 percent of student receive As and A-s. you have to be above the standard deviation to get an A/A-. For example, if the average score was a 65 an the standard deviation was 15 point, you need an 81> to get an A/A-.

As a point of reference, the average gpa for those admitted to Drexel med from penn was a 3.3 science/3.4 overall. For Miami, it was a 3.6 science/3.7 overall. Med Schools don't acknowledge grade deflation as much as they should.

If you get into a bs/md take it, I really regret not accepting the bs md program I got into. I'm working 3 times as harder to probably gain admission to the medical school that was part of the bs md program. A friend of mine who turned down Penn LSM (special program for pre med
And wharton) for a bs md is having the time of his life. He never has any stress except for maintaining a decent gpa. If anyone does decide to go the ivy league, make sure it's a grade inflated ivy like Harvard or brown.

 

[Aerus]

This is precisely why grade inflation at top schools is a myth. All classes are graded on a curve and curves that hurt your grade are not uncommon. You will be curved against intelligent and motivated people in all of your classes, which is why the curves are centered around B as opposed to C. It is very difficult to get an A and professors are not afraid to give you Cs and lower if you are not keeping up with the curve.

As an example of your above concern, I took a class in which the mode score on the exams was 100, so every point you missed cost you a letter grade.

@Joesmoe2: The average GPA at Brown is a full 0.1 above the next highest Ivy and the average GPA at Princeton is a full 0.1 below the next lowest Ivy, but aside from them the rest of the Ivy League schools have pretty similar average GPAs (all 6 in a 0.1 GPA range), so I would not say that the others are any easier than Penn. In fact, the average GPA at Harvard is identical to that of Penn.

I somewhat disagree with the bolded. There's a reason why just about everyone takes Organic Chemistry at Harvard, even though Harvard is one of the, if not the most, selective school in the country.

Curves can be adjusted. Not every curve is the same. Sometimes, the bottom tier of the curve will get C's and not F's. Sometimes, only the top 1% will get A's. Sometimes, the top 15%. I've seen the curve done in many ways, not just the typical "An A must be this much away from the mean and this standard deviation blah blah blah"

Many schools like Harvard do want their students to graduate as happy successful RICH alumni that will donate back.

 

[SpaceHamsterBoo]

This is precisely why grade inflation at top schools is a myth. All classes are graded on a curve and curves that hurt your grade are not uncommon. You will be curved against intelligent and motivated people in all of your classes, which is why the curves are centered around B as opposed to C. It is very difficult to get an A and professors are not afraid to give you Cs and lower if you are not keeping up with the curve.

As an example of your above concern, I took a class in which the mode score on the exams was 100, so every point you missed cost you a letter grade.

@Joesmoe2: The average GPA at Brown is a full 0.1 above the next highest Ivy and the average GPA at Princeton is a full 0.1 below the next lowest Ivy, but aside from them the rest of the Ivy League schools have pretty similar average GPAs (all 6 in a 0.1 GPA range), so I would not say that the others are any easier than Penn. In fact, the average GPA at Harvard is identical to that of Penn.

Why use a system such as this? This is the most fudging stupid thing I've ever heard of? Why not grade based on raw scores?

 

[Aerus]

Why use a system such as this? This is the most fudging stupid thing I've ever heard of? Why not grade based on raw scores?

If the average score in the class is a 35%, like a typical Physical Chemistry class at my school, should everyone fail the course?

Some professors intentionally make the test almost impossible to do well on (raw score) so that the scores are more distributed. They want to know who truly understands the material and who is just memorizing everything, hoping that the test won't be that hard, and who is just plain lazy and hoping to get by with common sense.

After you get all these wide variety of scores, they then curve it based on how well who does what.

I agree that grading on a curve when the exam isn't actually that hard is unnecessary, but most curved classes have pretty hard exams and the majority of the class wouldn't have "passed" without the curve.

 

[darkjedi]

Why use a system such as this? This is the most fudging stupid thing I've ever heard of? Why not grade based on raw scores?

Good question, why an institution is okay with screwing over the majority of students in their class by hamstringing their GPA is beyond me. When 90% of your graduating class has a 3.60 or below, it's the administration's fault and not the student body. It's why I'm never donating a single cent to my alma mater.

 

[487806]

Why use a system such as this? This is the most fudging stupid thing I've ever heard of? Why not grade based on raw scores?

I agree that's a very harsh and meaningless way for professors to grade students. But grade deflation is mainly used in top schools, so I guess it's expected?

 

[487806]

If the average score in the class is a 35%, like a typical Physical Chemistry class at my school, should everyone fail the course?

Some professors intentionally make the test almost impossible to do well on (raw score) so that the scores are more distributed. They want to know who truly understands the material and who is just memorizing everything, hoping that the test won't be that hard, and who is just plain lazy and hoping to get by with common sense.

After you get all these wide variety of scores, they then curve it based on how well who does what.

I agree that grading on a curve when the exam isn't actually that hard is unnecessary, but most curved classes have pretty hard exams and the majority of the class wouldn't have "passed" without the curve.

Curves are used to help students get better grades. If students do well on their exam (say 91% average as mentioned before), they shouldn't be curved against and get a lower grade. That's why grade deflation is extremely unfair and should be thrown away.

 

[SpaceHamsterBoo]

Curves are used to help students get better grades. If students do well on their exam (say 91% average as mentioned before), they shouldn't be curved against and get a lower grade. That's why grade deflation is extremely unfair and should be thrown away.

It's simple, we kill the Ivy League.

 

[pasiley]

Good question, why an institution is okay with screwing over the majority of students in their class by hamstringing their GPA is beyond me. When 90% of your graduating class has a 3.60 or below, it's the administration's fault and not the student body. It's why I'm never donating a single cent to my alma mater.

My school (my program in particular) did address the problem and they have jumped on the grade inflation bandwagon but only after I left.

I'm sure they started noticing very few of their students were getting into professional schools even though the average student in the program had test scores and high school rank in the 95%. Many of my friends regretted turning down ivy league offers to attend our school. At least the ivy students have their school name as a fallback. My school really did care about their students and addressed this issue.

I will say this, this cutthroat competition did teach me how to do well on the MCAT. You did pretty well on the MCAT yourself. I don't know if this is a self selecting factor in that the only people taking the MCAT were the superstars who thought med school might even be a possibility with their GPA after attending a difficult school. I don't know of a single person who I graduated with that scored below a 30. I studied less for the MCAT than I did for most finals, and I studied pretty hard for the MCAT. I would start studying for a final the second week of class and I only studied for the MCAT for 3 months.

Whatever, I still had a competitive GPA and am doing well Interview wise this application season. I'm just glad that recent grads have it a little easier than I did.

 

[Hemorrage]

I agree that's a very harsh and meaningless way for professors to grade students. But grade deflation is mainly used in top schools, so I guess it's expected?

Some institutions such as mine use it as a way of attracting "hard-working" students.. however i don't think its very useful at all since most kids just end up getting frustrated and wanting to quit. I literally have to study 24/7 at my school to maintain a 3.5+

 

[PreMedOrDead]

It's simple, we kill the Ivy League.

The whole curve thing is handled so differently between professors it's tough to judge how it actually helps/hurts students. Classes are also not always the same. One class can easily be significantly more intellectual than the previous or the following. Grading on a curve wouldn't account for this. Grading on a raw scale makes it so this grade skewing doesn't happen. This difficulty in interpretation is also why AdComs likely don't try to interpret GPAs too in-depth and just go by the raw number on the application.

Most schools also don't actually 'curve' like a 'curve' is actually supposed to be. A real 'curve' implies that the vast majority of students receive a C, a smaller portion receive Ds and Bs, and a significantly smaller proportion receive Fs and As. This is rarely what happens. Most schools tend to 'curve' around the B+/A- range, which is not a curve.

 

[alamofire]

x

 

[A7X]

Schools generally grade on curves for weedout classes, or very large classes. Small classes never use curves (at least not at my school).
However, grading on a curve has its benefits, particularly when the class average is below 60%.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

Schools generally grade on curves for weedout classes, or very large classes. Small classes never use curves (at least not at my school).
However, grading on a curve has its benefits, particularly when the class average is below 60%.

Usually in this case the grades are determined by the student who gets the highest score, at least with a couple of my professors. That way, even if the high was a 60/100, that person would end up getting a 60/60 instead of a 60/100, for example. Some won't boost grades at all, so even if the high was a 60, everyone would fail.

 

[Aerus]

I think it's because Harvard has a lot of (potential) pre-meds, not because the class has a nice curve. I don't think people are going to take organic chemistry because they think they can get a good grade, there are much less painful ways to do that.

The bolded makes no sense whatsoever when you compare it with what you said below, which seemingly contradicts what you just said.

My school also has a lot of (potential) pre-meds and a lot of people take organic chemistry, but the curve is often harsh, depending on the professor.

Of course curves can be adjusted, my point is that the policy described by OP is not grade deflation; all curves restrict the percentage of each grade that is given out by definition and schools that have "grade inflation" are no different. The difference lies in the exact center of the curve, which is usually a B/B+ for "grade-inflated" schools like Harvard and a B- for "grade-deflated" schools like Cornell. Most of the time the curves are positive because the averages are designed to be low; other times the curves are negative, but that is not what grade deflation means.

What? So Harvard is easier because there are a lot of premeds while your school is harder because there are a lot of premeds? I don't get this.

Harvard is easier because it's easier. It's grade inflated and the professors there basically spoon feed the students. That's the whole trick with grade inflated ivies. They want happy, successful, rich alumni to donate back. Of course you have grade deflated ivies, like Cornell and UPenn, but that's a whole different story.

 

[Aerus]

Curves are used to help students get better grades. If students do well on their exam (say 91% average as mentioned before), they shouldn't be curved against and get a lower grade. That's why grade deflation is extremely unfair and should be thrown away.

Not sure why you quoted me, as I fully agree with how unfair grade deflation is. =P

 

[alamofire]

Usually in this case the grades are determined by the student who gets the highest score, at least with a couple of my professors. That way, even if the high was a 60/100, that person would end up getting a 60/60 instead of a 60/100, for example. Some won't boost grades at all, so even if the high was a 60, everyone would fail.

x

 

[Sophocles]

You implied that a lot of students at Harvard take organic chemistry because the curve is nice. At my school, the curve is not and a lot of students still take organic chemistry. My point is that those Harvard students are not taking it because of the curve but because they are potentially pre-meds. That's all, it's not an important point.

I don't go to Harvard, but people only hate on it because it's Harvard. People only think certain schools have grade inflation/deflation because they heard it from other people. The average GPA at Penn is 3.44 and at Harvard it's 3.45. One is not deflated and the other is not inflated (relative to each other), period.

Just curious as to where I can get access to these numbers?

 

[Sophocles]

All the numbers are like 5 years old, but for comparative purposes I doubt there's a huge difference.

Bottom of the page here: http://www.gradeinflation.com/

For the Ivy League:
1. Brown (3.61)
2. Yale (3.51)
3. Harvard (3.45)
4. Penn (3.44)
5-6. Columbia/Dartmouth (3.42)
7. Cornell (3.36)
8. Princeton (3.28)

Other "grade-deflated" schools: Chicago (3.35), Harvey Mudd (3.31), Berkeley (3.27), Johns Hopkins (3.26), MIT (3.26, although no data since 1999).

Thanks. Damn Brown/Yale sound like awesome places to go!!!

 

[487806]

How are undergrad colleges even significant in AMCAS? Why not go to a less difficult, grade inflating college, take higher classes, do well on them (with MCAT, EC's etc.), thus increasing your chances for med school? Med schools don't care what college you go to, so going for Ivy League in undergrad is sadly pointless.

Not sure why you quoted me, as I fully agree with how unfair grade deflation is. =P

Whoops.

 

[Sophocles]

How are undergrad colleges even significant in AMCAS? Why not go to a less difficult, grade inflating college, take higher classes, do well on them (with MCAT, EC's etc.), thus increasing your chances for med school? Med schools don't care what college you go to, so going for Ivy League in undergrad is sadly pointless.



Whoops.

Ummmm... going to Ivy League is not pointless. I agree that if you're going to an Ivy League because you want the prestige, you're time could be spent better at other institutions, but it's not pointless.

 

[Sophocles]

If the only reason you are going to college is to go to medical school after, then perhaps, but there are many reasons people prefer Ivy League schools that are completely independent of their prestige. Also, many students entering college are not set on going to medical school. There are also many opportunities available at Ivy League schools that make getting into medical school easier. Last but not least, the financial aid programs at HYP make it so that, for many students, HYP are cheaper than their state schools.

So that program is available for all Ivy's I believe. I have a friend here at Columbia where his parents make less than 60,000 and he's coming here for free. I also think he has his dorm and food paid for.

 

[twizzlers713]

In curved classes like these, it's not how well you do, but how much better you do than your peers

 

[Aerus]

You implied that a lot of students at Harvard take organic chemistry because the curve is nice. At my school, the curve is not and a lot of students still take organic chemistry. My point is that those Harvard students are not taking it because of the curve but because they are potentially pre-meds. That's all, it's not an important point.

I don't go to Harvard, but people only hate on it because it's Harvard. People only think certain schools have grade inflation/deflation because they heard it from other people. The average GPA at Penn is 3.44 and at Harvard it's 3.45. One is not deflated and the other is not inflated (relative to each other), period.

People take Orgo at Harvard because it's easier than their own school (schools like Northwestern and Cal have many students who take it at Harvard).

I apologize for that mistake. UPenn isn't grade deflated. Harvard is definitely grade inflated, though. 3.45 is a pretty high average GPA, when comparing it to other schools, relatively.

 

[nabilesmail]

People take Orgo at Harvard because it's easier than their own school (schools like Northwestern and Cal have many students who take it at Harvard).

I apologize for that mistake. UPenn isn't grade deflated. Harvard is definitely grade inflated, though. 3.45 is a pretty high average GPA, when comparing it to other schools, relatively.

Meh but NU and CALare already competitive schools, wouldn't you guys rather compete in an environment where the average is curved to a C+/B- with the average student having a 1700-1800 SAT then a school that curves the average to a B-/B with the average student having a 2200 SAT?

 

[Midifelder10]

Went to good public school and the curves were at C+. Only a SD above median is an A and then you get A- and so on. Now imagine sitting in a class with 31 ACT average and it starts sucking that students with 30 ACT are getting C's. Such is life.

 

[Aerus]

Meh but NU and CALare already competitive schools, wouldn't you guys rather compete in an environment where the average is curved to a C+/B- with the average student having a 1700-1800 SAT then a school that curves the average to a B-/B with the average student having a 2200 SAT?

Yeah, but grade inflation doesn't make this a huge problem. When I talk about grade inflation, the actual students matter less and the professor matters more. As I always say, Harvard wants happy, successful, rich alumni. Getting a good grade is generally (not always) easier at Harvard than another competitive (but grade deflated) school.

You mean over the summer? You can't compare a summer class to a semester class because summer classes are usually easier and the competition is different because many students are not from Harvard. Frankly, the summer program seems to be designed for students that want to "experience Harvard" and does not seem to be a good representation of classes at Harvard. Also, I think we can all agree that Cal is far and away in its own class as far as competition at state schools is concerned, so I would consider it the exception, not the rule.

People think differently about this, but it is my personal opinion that a high average GPA is not necessarily unjustified at Harvard because the average Harvard student is very intelligent and motivated; if GPA is to be used as an absolute measure of a student's performance in college (context is often not taken into account), then it is not inappropriate to have a higher average for Harvard students. Again, this is not to say all Harvard students are smarter than state school students, because they most certainly aren't, but comparing my experience at a competitive "grade-inflated" school to my high school friends' experiences at top state schools, it doesn't seem to be any easier to get good grades at my school (it has been much harder for me, in fact).

People are going to disagree with me, and that's fine. In reality, I don't think anyone can know for sure unless they attended both kinds of institutions (not counting the summer).

Eh, I've heard it both ways, how summer classes are more challenging and how they're less challenging. The fact remains that it's still an orgo class there. I've heard that Cal and NU have notoriously difficult science classes because of the sheer curve, but never at Harvard. The whole grade inflation thing isn't based off of nothing.

Regarding the "Harvard students are smart" thing, that's why it's grade inflated. Grades are usually based on a curve, so if the average GPA is almost a 3.5, then you know even the bottom students are getting better grades than the bottom students at, let's say, MIT. And we know that MIT students are brilliant.

I'm not saying that all top schools are grade inflated. In fact, as I always say, MIT, Cal, Cornell, and (in more recent years) Princeton are known to be grade deflated.

But yes, we can both agree to disagree. This is all just discussion and speculation.