Grads of new schools have employment trouble?

[iiii]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I attended a reception to match selling/hiring OD's with current students this summer at a state association meeting.

A larger percentage of the doctors asked what school I was at and made it clear they would never consider anyone from MidWestern, Western, or UIWCO for a position. They were quite adament about these schools being unecessary and damaging the profession for all OD's.

I've heard classmates report similar statements from OD's they know.

Glad I didn't consider a new school and wonder if they'll all be doomed to commercial practice or have trouble finding any job.

 

[Jason K]

I attended a reception to match selling/hiring OD's with current students this summer at a state association meeting.

A larger percentage of the doctors asked what school I was at and made it clear they would never consider anyone from MidWestern, Western, or UIWCO for a position. They were quite adament about these schools being unecessary and damaging the profession for all OD's.

I've heard classmates report similar statements from OD's they know.

Glad I didn't consider a new school and wonder if they'll all be doomed to commercial practice or have trouble finding any job.

To be honest, as much thought as I've given to the oversupply issue, I'd never even considered the fact that grads from these new schools might be "black-balled" by hiring ODs. Commercial practice will welcome them with open arms, but I suppose private ODs might turn away out of spite. Rest assured, though, it won't just be the grads from new programs who face the "commercial monster." That's going to be there for everyone coming out these days.

The WesternU website claims the "range" of income for ODs is 96K to 175K annually. Ha! I wonder how long it will be before grads from that program and others return to the campus after graduation with picket signs and attorneys in tow. It's happening to law schools for their misrepresentation of the job prospects and income potential to their applicants. It's only a matter of time....

 

[319671]

great. a sequel to a closed thread

 

[Jonbrout]

Lulz. Glad those are none of my choice schools. I guess it's one way to diminish acceptance rates and numerous new optometrist from graduating....although.....it's the complete wrong way.

 

[Jason K]

great. a sequel to a closed thread

 

[Shnurek]

I'm actually glad this is happening. If closing down optometry schools is anti-trust then the only way competent doctors can control their own profession is to not hire new doctors from superfluous schools that are in it just for the profit.

 

[319671]

good to know that optometry school nurtured a sense of maturity in you

 

[Jason K]

good to know that optometry school nutured a sense of maturity in you

What does it mean....to "nuture?"

 

[319671]

What does it mean....to "nuture?"

transitive verb
: to supply with nourishment

 

[Jason K]

transitive verb
: to supply with nourishment

That's...."nurture." Watch those details....they're important to an OD. Sometimes you can't go back and correct your mistakes.

 

[319671]

That's...."nurture." Watch those details....they're important to an OD. Sometimes you can't go back and correct your mistakes.

better to make a typo on an internet forum (where in fact mistakes can be corrected), than have a fundamental flaw in personality...in the real world...where you have kindly told us that mistakes are hard to correct.

 

[Jason K]

better to make a typo on an internet forum (where in fact mistakes can be corrected), than have a fundamental flaw in personality...in the real world...where you have kindly told us that mistakes are hard to correct.

Dude, you need to simmer down. I'm just messing with you. Everyone makes typos on their posts, including me.

 

[319671]

Dude, you need to simmer down. I'm just messing with you. Everyone makes typos on their posts, including me.

says the one who needs a "chuck norris" picture/avatar to validate his authority on a forum 😉

 

[Jason K]

says the one who needs a "chuck norris" picture/avatar to validate his authority on a forum 😉

Actually, my avatar is not a picture of Chuck, it's drawing of his fist......

This is a picture of Chuck Norris....

 

[319671]

Actually, my avatar is not a picture of Chuck, it's drawing of his fist......

This is a picture of Chuck Norris....

oh right....missed that... see....your detailed OD skills are finally coming in handy for something! arent you glad?😱

 

[Jason K]

oh right....missed that... see....your detailed OD skills are finally coming in handy for something! arent you glad?😱

You missed an apostrophe on that last one.

 

[319671]

You missed an apostrophe on that last one.

+1 omggg yayayay i found a proofreader for sdn! maybe you should give up being an OD now that you've found your calling!

 

[Jason K]

+1 omggg yayayay i found a proofreader for sdn! maybe you should give up being an OD now that you've found your calling!

Capitalization rules can be important in healthcare.

 

[319671]

Capitalization rules can be important in healthcare.

i never said they werent. since you have such a penchant for proofreading, and such a contempt for being an OD, i figured you would want to switch. you corrected my punctuation (the lack of an apostrophe) not my capitalization.

 

[Jason K]

i never said they werent. since you have such a penchant for proofreading, and such a contempt for being an OD, i figured you would want to switch. you corrected my punctuation (the lack of an apostrophe) not my capitalization.

I was correcting both........in two separate posts......


.......dude, shouldn't you be studying for something instead of responding to clearly meaningless posts by some random OD on the internet?

(Also, you missed a comma after apostrophe.)

 

[319671]

I was correcting both........in two separate posts......


.......dude, shouldn't you be studying for something instead of responding to clearly meaningless posts by some random OD on the internet?

(Also, you missed a comma after apostrophe.)

actually, my uni doesnt start til thurs. and don't insult yourself, you're not a random OD, you're JasonK OD at large.

and shouldnt you be looking for ways to improve your OD career, or find a new one? considering how much you post on here...

and where did you explicitly correct my spelling?

 

[Jason K]

actually, my uni doesnt start til thurs. and don't insult yourself, you're not a random OD, you're JasonK OD at large.

and shouldnt you be looking for ways to improve your OD career, or find a new one? considering how much you post on here...

and where did you explicitly correct my spelling?

Actually, Chuck does much of my posting for me. Don't tell anyone, though.

 

[319671]

Actually, Chuck does much of my posting for me. Don't tell anyone, though.

oh for sure. just for you.

 

[KHE]

As a private practice owner I can say that I would be VERY hesitant to hire any graduate from any of the new schools for a number of years unless they had done a residency.

They might be producing the greatest ODs in history (not likely with a new program) but there's simply no track record with the new schools.

 

[optsuker]

As a private practice owner I can say that I would be VERY hesitant to hire any graduate from any of the new schools for a number of years unless they had done a residency.

Same here.

I wouldn't say never, but I doubt a grad from a new school (or the PR school) would ever get an interview with me.
I (along with many OD's) will assume:

1. You couldn't get in anywhere else.
2. You were weak academically or have some flaw that made other schools reject you.
3. Probably had a weak clinical experience during your 4th year.
4. My underlying belief that the new schools are hurting optometry will bias me against even considering you.

 

[agreenawalt]

Same here.

I wouldn't say never, but I doubt a grad from a new school (or the PR school) would ever get an interview with me.
I (along with many OD's) will assume:

1. You couldn't get in anywhere else.
2. You were weak academically or have some flaw that made other schools reject you.
3. Probably had a weak clinical experience during your 4th year.
4. My underlying belief that the new schools are hurting optometry will bias me against even considering you.

is this true for most OD's? This makes me really sad 🙁 I have been really considering Western U for optometry school - I have a great GPA and OAT scores, and have been offered interviews everywhere I have applied to (i.e. I am able to get into other schools if I want to). I know everyone blames them for part of the oversupply issue, but are other OD's really going to turn me away just because I went there? They have such an interesting program that really intrigues me. But I don't want to go to school and then find out I can't get a job anywhere...what to do? Should I really base my decision on other people's prejudices?

And I was hoping to do a residency, would that help get doctors to consider giving me a chance (based on what KHE posted)?

 

[319671]

is this true for most OD's? This makes me really sad 🙁 I have been really considering Western U for optometry school - I have a great GPA and OAT scores, and have been offered interviews everywhere I have applied to (i.e. I am able to get into other schools if I want to). I know everyone blames them for part of the oversupply issue, but are other OD's really going to turn me away just because I went there? They have such an interesting program that really intrigues me. But I don't want to go to school and then find out I can't get a job anywhere...what to do? Should I really base my decision on other people's prejudices?

And I was hoping to do a residency, would that help get doctors to consider giving me a chance (based on what KHE posted)?

PR is accredited tho?

 

[KHE]

is this true for most OD's? This makes me really sad 🙁 I have been really considering Western U for optometry school - I have a great GPA and OAT scores, and have been offered interviews everywhere I have applied to (i.e. I am able to get into other schools if I want to). I know everyone blames them for part of the oversupply issue, but are other OD's really going to turn me away just because I went there? They have such an interesting program that really intrigues me. But I don't want to go to school and then find out I can't get a job anywhere...what to do? Should I really base my decision on other people's prejudices?

And I was hoping to do a residency, would that help get doctors to consider giving me a chance (based on what KHE posted)?

For me, it has nothing to do with the oversupply issue. It has to do with the fact that the program has not graduated anyone and as such has absolutely no reputation.

New programs almost invariable have bugs and kinks to be worked out. New programs usually don't have good patient numbers for students in their own clinics. I'm not willing to take that chance on a new graduate. If they've done a residency at a facility other than Western I would probably at least consider them.

 

[agreenawalt]

For me, it has nothing to do with the oversupply issue. It has to do with the fact that the program has not graduated anyone and as such has absolutely no reputation.

New programs almost invariable have bugs and kinks to be worked out. New programs usually don't have good patient numbers for students in their own clinics. I'm not willing to take that chance on a new graduate. If they've done a residency at a facility other than Western I would probably at least consider them.

Hm. That does make complete sense. And you know what? It's a lot better that I find this out now rather than after having committed to go there. After learning this information, I just scheduled an interview at SCCO for October 1 🙂 I'd rather get an education that people can trust, and do a residency in a program I like rather than running the risk of getting a mediocre education and lower my chances of finding work. Thanks for the helpful insight and advice!

 

[imemily]

As long as they pass the NBEO/national boards then newer schools should posses skills equivalent to those students who graduated from more established schools.

 

[Tippytoe]

Hm. That does make complete sense. And you know what? It's a lot better that I find this out now rather than after having committed to go there. After learning this information, I just scheduled an interview at SCCO for October 1 🙂 I'd rather get an education that people can trust, and do a residency in a program I like rather than running the risk of getting a mediocre education and lower my chances of finding work. Thanks for the helpful insight and advice!

Nonsense. Walmart, where most new grads will likely be working, will hire you no matter what school you went to. They don't care. Go to the cheapest school to at least have a chance at a decent middle-class lifestyle.

But I serioulsy doubt you will not get a job based on the school you attend. All most employers want is a license. If you got that, you are more than qualifed.

 

[Tippytoe]

As long as they pass the NBEO/national boards then newer schools should posses skills equivalent to those students who graduated from more established schools.

Whoa, Hell must have just froze over. Emily and I almost agree on something.😀

 

[Jason K]

Nonsense. Walmart, where most new grads will likely be working, will hire you no matter what school you went to. They don't care. Go to the cheapest school to at least have a chance at a decent middle-class lifestyle.

👍😀

 

[agreenawalt]

As long as they pass the NBEO/national boards then newer schools should posses skills equivalent to those students who graduated from more established schools.

That's true. I am just wondering how much I want to risk my future though - i.e. if Western does not get accredited, or if their students do not do well on the boards due to their curriculum, ect. I have been going back and forth between SCCO and Western for awhile now. There are things I like about each

 

[319671]

Whoa, Hell must have just froze over. Emily and I almost agree on something.😀

would you hire someone from pr or western/midwestern?

 

[imemily]

That's true. I am just wondering how much I want to risk my future though - i.e. if Western does not get accredited, or if their students do not do well on the boards due to their curriculum, ect. I have been going back and forth between SCCO and Western for awhile now. There are things I like about each

Yeah...I second this notion. I would definitely pick one of the more established schools - it just looks much better.

 

[optsuker]

is this true for most OD's? This makes me really sad 🙁 I have been really considering Western U for optometry school - I have a great GPA and OAT scores, and have been offered interviews everywhere I have applied to (i.e. I am able to get into other schools if I want to). I know everyone blames them for part of the oversupply issue, but are other OD's really going to turn me away just because I went there? They have such an interesting program that really intrigues me. But I don't want to go to school and then find out I can't get a job anywhere...what to do? Should I really base my decision on other people's prejudices?

And I was hoping to do a residency, would that help get doctors to consider giving me a chance (based on what KHE posted)?

I don't know if it's true for most, but it's true for a lot.

I think a candidate with good stats is CRAZY to consider a new, unproven program if something better is available. Many of your classmates will be the bottom of the barrel who shouldn't have been accepted anywhere.

Ask an optometrist to review Western's program and you'll find out that most of their claims are marketing hype. Some of their unique claims I would even consider to be a liability.

Don't handcuff your employment options if you don't have to.

 

[optsuker]

As long as they pass the NBEO/national boards then newer schools should posses skills equivalent to those students who graduated from more established schools.

Totally naive to think that just passing the NBEO equates to an equivilent training experience and that it won't be a factor in getting employed somewhere that want something more than a warm body with a license.

 

[KHE]

Totally naive to think that just passing the NBEO equates to an equivilent training experience and that it won't be a factor in getting employed somewhere that want something more than a warm body with a license.

No kidding.

 

[Jason K]

As long as they pass the NBEO/national boards then newer schools should posses skills equivalent to those students who graduated from more established schools.

At the risk of starting another imemily firestorm....the skills of interns vary greatly among different programs and even within the same program. Some of it depends on the intern himself, some of it depends on the externship sites chosen, and some on the program. That said, there's no doubt that some programs are "better" at preparing interns than others. It's crazy to assume that simply because you passed NBEO (which, for the clinical portion, is almost impossible to fail unless you intentionally assault the patient with a near rod or something), you're of the same skillset as the person next to you. Not all interns are created equal and not all programs are created equal, certainly not the new ones.

I think the point some people are trying to make is that the new programs have yet to prove themselves one way or the other. In all likelihood, they will have a lot of "kinks" to work out before they start pumping out quality interns that can head into commercial practice.

Afterthought: Actually, since there's no test item on NBEO that states, "Did the candidate not assault the patient with a near point rod? Yes / No.......maybe you could actually still pass even in that case. 😀

 

[netmag]

Going to a new school probably won't mean anything in regards to working in a commercial setting. However, if there is a choice of candidates in a private practice, I would think it definitely would matter.

I don't think it's fair to just completely assume that anyone coming out of a new program is lesser than someone coming out of an established one. For example, some people may attend a school due to location not because they couldn't get in anywhere else. On the flip side though, those new schools will probably take some students with lower credentials to help fill their classes. Especially since the acceptance rate for the current optometry schools is already in the 65% range. Therefore, I could totally understand why a private practice employer might choose someone from an established school if they have the choice.

If you go to an unaccredited school, you are indeed taking a risk. Realistically, it's probably not a huge risk (in terms of whether they'll eventually get accredited). Still, if you end up with the option to go to an established school and aren't too hung up on location, then that might be the safest choice.

 

[Tippytoe]

would you hire someone from pr or western/midwestern?

Well, since you bring it up, probably not. But then again, I don't see EVER hiring an OD. I like to feel I'm on the cutting edge and like to model my practice after successful ophthalmologists. I have electronic medical records and equipment automatically integrated with my software. This allows me to be super-efficient with 4 exam lanes.

The average OD sees 12 patients per day. This was fine in 1983 when everyone was getting a full exam and glasses and CLs from you for $400 each. But in 2011, we must see MANY more patients in the same time. I make $160 per patient on average.

So I can easily see 20 patients in a half day by using highly trained techs to do the entire workup and refraction (basically the entire exam). I have all the time in the world to spend with the patient at the end. I can do this without breaking a sweat (and surfing the web in between). So I could easly see 40+ patients per day if there was a demand. I'd just add another tech and maybe another lane.

THIS is what the future optometrist must be able to do to survive decreased insurance reimbursements, online opticals and a competitor on every corner.

So for this reason, I don't think I'll ever need to hire an OD when I can get a tech to do most of the ODs job. This is what OMDs do and why they are able to see 40+ patients per day. OD school is TERRIBLE at training us to do this. They have students doing 2 hour exams doing everything by themselves. Totally rediculous.

AND finally, this is why I am jumping up and down screaming about oversupply of ODs.

 

[Jason K]

THIS is what the future optometrist must be able to do to survive decreased insurance reimbursements, online opticals and a competitor on every corner.

So for this reason, I don't think I'll ever need to hire an OD when I can get a tech to do most of the ODs job. This is what OMDs do and why they are able to see 40+ patients per day. OD school is TERRIBLE at training us to do this. They have students doing 2 hour exams doing everything by themselves. Totally rediculous.

AND finally, this is why I am jumping up and down screaming about oversupply of ODs.

Tippytoe, I think you and I have been worrying all this time about nothing. All we'll have to do is line up 40+ patients per day and we'll be just fine. I don't know about you, but my father's side of the family is huge so I should be able to bring in a bunch of people from there. I know a lot of folks from my church as well and there's a huge group of old ladies that probably have some eye pathology. I'm not sure what everyone's so worried about......all I need is about 10,000 patients per year and I should be golden. Let's be honest, as sure as it's easy to pay off a 200K student loan debt with an 80K annual salary, it's a piece o' cake to bring in a mere 10K patients in a year, right? Let's see here, 35,000 ODs x 10,000 patients = 350M patients. The current US population is about 310M so I don't know what we've been worried about, there's more than enough patients to go around for everyone! Well, not quite enough, but almost. I guess we're 40M short if every single american citizen were to see an OD for their eye care. With the AOA at the helm, I don't think it will be long before every man, woman, and child in the US is scheduling annual exams.

.....wait a minute. (..carry the two, add the five....)

Ummmm....am I going to be able to come up with 40 patients per day!?! Oh no - maybe there IS an oversupply!! Crap. Anyone want to buy my OD diploma for 100K? Anyone....anyone at all? C'mon, we're talkin' a 50% markdown here!

Oh well, at least I didn't go to WesternU 😀

 

[319671]

Tippytoe, I think you and I have been worrying all this time about nothing. All we'll have to do is line up 40+ patients per day and we'll be just fine. I don't know about you, but my father's side of the family is huge so I should be able to bring in a bunch of people from there. I know a lot of folks from my church as well and there's a huge group of old ladies that probably have some eye pathology. I'm not sure what everyone's so worried about......all I need is about 10,000 patients per year and I should be golden. Let's be honest, as sure as it's easy to pay off a 200K student loan debt with an 80K annual salary, it's a piece o' cake to bring in a mere 10K patients in a year, right? Let's see here, 35,000 ODs x 10,000 patients = 350M patients. The current US population is about 310M so I don't know what we've been worried about, there's more than enough patients to go around for everyone! Well, not quite enough, but almost. I guess we're 40M short if every single american citizen were to see an OD for their eye care. With the AOA at the helm, I don't think it will be long before every man, woman, and child in the US is scheduling annual exams.

.....wait a minute. (..carry the two, add the five....)

Ummmm....am I going to be able to come up with 40 patients per day!?! Oh no - maybe there IS an oversupply!! Crap. Anyone want to buy my OD diploma for 100K? Anyone....anyone at all? C'mon, we're talkin' a 50% markdown here!

Oh well, at least I didn't go to WesternU 😀

sounds like you went to suny?

 

[319671]

Totally naive to think that just passing the NBEO equates to an equivilent training experience and that it won't be a factor in getting employed somewhere that want something more than a warm body with a license.

well if you pass the nbeo and you graduate from an accredited school, what more can you do out of opt school?

 

[syma]

Whoa, Hell must have just froze over. Emily and I almost agree on something.😀

+1

I almost don't want to admit it

 

[KHE]

well if you pass the nbeo and you graduate from an accredited school, what more can you do out of opt school?

How would you answer that question?

Or how about a slightly different one....

People sometimes ask what employers look for in perspective candidates. At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone who can make money for me and my practice.

So I'll pose that question to you:

"How are you going to make money for my practice?"

 

[Eyes Only]

How would you answer that question?

"How are you going to make money for my practice?"

Probably the most important question you can ask!

 

[imemily]

Well, since you bring it up, probably not. But then again, I don't see EVER hiring an OD. I like to feel I'm on the cutting edge and like to model my practice after successful ophthalmologists. I have electronic medical records and equipment automatically integrated with my software. This allows me to be super-efficient with 4 exam lanes.

The average OD sees 12 patients per day. This was fine in 1983 when everyone was getting a full exam and glasses and CLs from you for $400 each. But in 2011, we must see MANY more patients in the same time. I make $160 per patient on average.

So I can easily see 20 patients in a half day by using highly trained techs to do the entire workup and refraction (basically the entire exam). I have all the time in the world to spend with the patient at the end. I can do this without breaking a sweat (and surfing the web in between). So I could easly see 40+ patients per day if there was a demand. I'd just add another tech and maybe another lane.

THIS is what the future optometrist must be able to do to survive decreased insurance reimbursements, online opticals and a competitor on every corner.

So for this reason, I don't think I'll ever need to hire an OD when I can get a tech to do most of the ODs job. This is what OMDs do and why they are able to see 40+ patients per day. OD school is TERRIBLE at training us to do this. They have students doing 2 hour exams doing everything by themselves. Totally rediculous.

AND finally, this is why I am jumping up and down screaming about oversupply of ODs.

(lol- you just had to get that oversupply word in there somehow!)

Why do you so willingly believe that the situation you are in is representative of all ODs!?

I am assuming you make $160/pt which includes dispensing...if that is the case, I think you are in the bottom 10%....which isn't even average, meaning that the situation that you described above would only apply to those graduates who perform the worst in practice (this includes many things and especially those things that aren't thought in OD school).

You can do just as well as you would seeing 40pts a day if you saw say 15 patients a day, but this would require expertise and a pinch of luck. But I do agree, it would be more difficult, not impossible, due to insurance cuts etc, which COULD be catalyzed even further by more graduates.

 

[imemily]

How would you answer that question?

Or how about a slightly different one....

People sometimes ask what employers look for in perspective candidates. At the end of the day, what I'm looking for is someone who can make money for me and my practice.

So I'll pose that question to you:

"How are you going to make money for my practice?"

I think that is a totally fair question, but if the OD was seeking money than they would probably start their own practice. Most ODs looking for employment in pps just want a stable job I would guess, so you really can't expect an OD to make money for your practice when they don't have a desire to do so for themselves in the first place.

On second thought, the employed OD would be generating money for the practice by allowing you to see more patients than you would just by yourself. I really thought that was the point of hiring another OD. I am not really sure what else the OD can do!