Guess it's my turn...

[RaspberryBlu]

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So I'm in an odd place where it's still pretty early in the application process for matriculation (hopefully!) in 2011, but it's a bit late for any major changes. I have an interview with my university's pre-health advising group in a little under a month, but I could use some advice sooner than that.

Background info:
-SC resident
-Junior at Duke University
-double majoring in psychology and chemistry (minor in history)
-cumulative gpa: 3.95; BCPM gpa: ~3.89 (depending on how A- grades are weighted by AMCAS. I assumed 3.7 in my estimation)

Pre-Med specific info:
-MCAT scheduled for this coming May. Without a lot of prep work, I managed a 35 on the free MCAT available from the AAMC. I will be (and have already begun) working my butt off before taking the real thing .
-Approximately 50 hours of shadowing in an urgent care setting. The doctor I shadowed is specialized in both emergency medicine and family practice (some of his stories could be posted in the "Things I learned from my patients" thread!). I will probably be able to continue this next summer and winter.
-somewhere between 15 and 30 hours of volunteering at a hospital from my freshman year... currently volunteering in the inpatient children's playroom at the medical center here. I volunteer 2.5 hours per week, so I should have at least another 25 hours before the end of the semester (and I'll continue this until I graduate for a total of around 100-120 hours).
-I'm currently the graphics editor (leadership position) of a student-run publication on campus. I've been a member of this magazine's graphics design team my entire time at Duke.
-I've been a tutor since high school, although I didn't tutor in an official capacity during my first two years of college (leading study groups doesn't count on CVs unfortunately!). I began tutoring general chemistry last semester (4 students) as part of a tutoring service provided by my university. I'm tutoring organic chemistry this semester (2 students) as part of that same service.
-Still trying to decide who to ask for my third letter of recommendation (both science letters are in the process of being written).
-I feel I have a strong personal statement, although I will be revising it as the semester progresses.
-Random language ability: conversational (but not fluent) in Italian

What I see as my biggest weak spot/hole is the lack of research experience. In about 2 weeks, I will begin working with a small committee (2 NPs, a developmental psychologist, and maybe someone else) led by an oncologist. The goal of the committee is to develop a new treatment plan for pediatric oncology patients with improved communication between the patient, the doctor, and the family. I'm not sure if this counts as research experience or not (I'm thinking not...but I don't know how to classify it). Additionally, I am probably going to do an independent study in psychology during my senior year, but I think that might be too late for inclusion in the application process. Would a summer research experience be too late for the application process too?

A second hole is my relative lack of volunteer experience compared to some numbers I've seen. I don't think I have time to do any extra volunteering though.

Currently, my long-term plan is to become a pediatric oncologist. I'm not sure if that affects anything at this point.

Any other advice/recommendations that you may have for improving my chances would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks and sorry for the long post!

 

[Morsetlis]

-double majoring in psychology and chemistry (minor in history)
-cumulative gpa: 3.95

That's all we needed to know.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

So you don't think the lack of research experience would be a factor in getting into medical schools? Everyone else seems to swear by them.......

 

[Morsetlis]

So you don't think the lack of research experience would be a factor in getting into medical schools? Everyone else seems to swear by them.......

Outweighed by big fat GPA. Only 70% of accepted applicants have research experience.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

fair enough... although that's still only 30% of medical students without research experience. Significantly less than half...

But let's pretend I'm one of those bordering-on-neurotic pre-med students who wants to make sure she gets into med school. Is it too late for me to round out my resume with a research experience over the summer or independent study during my senior year? Do med school applications committees even look at stuff happening concurrently with the application process? I guess it might come up in an interview, but having the experience would help make sure medical schools actually want to interview me, yes?

 

[Morsetlis]

It's never too late. You can send letters of update, or give them to your interviewer. These are, however, substantially LESS useful after an interview.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

Ahh... I didn't realize you could update medical schools about your application. I thought once the primary was submitted, everything was done until the secondary applications (and then hopefully interviews).

Very cool and useful info. Thanks! =]

 

[Catalystik]

Your numbers look to be strong enough to give you a shot as some of the highly-selective med schools. If that is your goal, then a lack of research experience on your application will probably hurt you. Its lack can be compensated for by strong leadership or strong community service (but I'm not seeing that, from your description).

I'd say your biggest weakness is mediocre clinical experience and community service (unless the tutoring is volunteer).

Shadowing is not included in clinical experience, being a passive observership. If you'll only be shadowing one type of doctor, having it be someone in a primary care specialty is good. A total of 60-80 hours would cover the expectations of a variety of med schools. Maybe you could add a second type of doc over the spring break for a quick experience so you have more breadth of exposure.

So for clinical experience you have maybe 30 hours from freshman year and 25 more this semester before an (optimally) early summer submission, giving you 55 hours when 150 hours over 1.5 years is average. Maybe you'll be OK because your application reflects an interest in medicine over many years, but I'd keep accumulating hours so you can include the augmentation in future update letters, discuss it at interviews, and if you end up reapplying, have a more typical accumulation of hours.

Do you have any nonmedical community service (If paid to tutor)? The committee position for the oncology team might fit in here. It sounds interesting and unique and has medical relevance, though it isn't a clinical experience if you don't interact one-on-one with patients (but maybe you could work that in?). You could make this into a research project if you start with a hypothesis (What difference will enhanced communication make?) and then test it with control patients, using a scholarly approach, and developing a potentialy publishable activity.

On your application you'll also include Artistic Endeavors (you must have something to put here with your graphic abilities), Sports, Employment, and Hobbies.

Be sure to describe how you are a leader when describing the graphic arts editorship.

Your application would be much stronger a year from now. You need to decide on what med schools you're targeting to help you make a decision on whether to wait or not before applying.

 

[bannie22]

Looks good. Enjoy.

Not like I had any research, but not like I got into the top 10 either ways.

 

[rrickett]

Look, do you want to get into Hopkins or Harvard or Wash U? If so, then yes maybe do some research.

Your stats are probably going to get you into a Top 20 med school. Med schools don't want research science people. They want passionate hardworking people. For example, I was a French Lit Chem double major. I did ZERO research. I was supper competitive because of good grades and interesting ECs (college sports, studying chemistry in France). It was attention grabbing on interviews. Even if you do research you will get asked more about your club work and travels...trust me. People wanted to hear about me taking physical chem in Southern France much more than talk to some guy who did titrations one summer.

70% of med students do research in undergrad. Who cares! When you get to this level you will look back on the reasearch undergrads do and chuckle. In the end they are not doing anything of significance. It will not make you a better med student. It just shows you are serious and hard working. You have already demonstrated that with your CV. Take a deep breath, enjoy your senior year, and get ready for med school.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

Thanks for all the constructive criticism so far, guys! I really appreciate it. I'll probably end up with closer to 30 hours of volunteering experience this semester and I can easily get another 20 hours of shadowing experience over spring break. I know a few oncologists back home, so I will try to get permission to shadow one of them for some of that time. My current tutoring is paid, but my half of my high school tutoring was unpaid. I doubt med schools care about that though.

I spoke with my dad (an MD) about whether he thought I should hold off on applying this cycle or go forward with it despite some of the weaknesses you have pointed out. He thought that waiting a year to apply might come across as a lack of confidence and turn off medical schools that are looking for self-confident individuals. What do you think?

Something I didn't mention in my previous posts because I wasn't sure how it would factor in: I'm a pediatric cancer survivor myself. This is mentioned in my personal statement, although it is not the only point I make (and only related to the main point as a causative factor rather than the central idea). My dad thinks that coupled with my strong gpa (and hopefully a strong MCAT), my unique insight and perspective on the childhood cancer experience would be enough to capture the attention of medical schools despite the lack of research and relatively small amount of volunteering experience. Do you think he's right about that?

Final question... it's been partially answered but not directly addressed. If I complete 2-3 months of research over the summer in a non-clinical cancer drug study, would a letter of update at some point in July or August be soon enough to have some impact on my application process (perhaps catching someone's attention to make them want to interview me if they decided that I wasn't their ideal candidate without the research experience)? I realize it can't hurt my chances, but I want to approach it with realistic expectations of how much it will help me out aside from satisfying my own interest in participating.

Molte grazie!

 

[tennisball80]

MCAT is the key.

 

[Catalystik]

. . . waiting a year to apply might come across as a lack of confidence and turn off medical schools that are looking for self-confident individuals.

Applying without a solid application could be looked at as portraying overconfidence

my unique insight and perspective on the childhood cancer experience would be enough to capture the attention of medical schools despite the lack of research and relatively small amount of volunteering experience. Do you think he's right about that?

One of SDN's posters who is an adcomm has said that personal medical circumstances do not count as clinical experience (at least at her school). She also said that having a physician parent can get you partial points toward shadowing as you're more likely to already know what you're getting into.

A negative about bringing up past medical issues is that it opens the door to questions about your current health. You can't afford to come across as other than completely reassuring on this topic.

If I complete 2-3 months of research over the summer in a non-clinical cancer drug study, would a letter of update at some point in July or August be soon enough to have some impact

The answer to this would be different at every school you apply to. In the process I'm most familiar with, your Primary application is scored on the aspects the school feels are important. If you fail that scoring process, no supplemental materials submitted will make a difference. The most likely time that an update letter would help you is after the interview. Some schools don't regard update letters at all. Some are swayed when an applicant in on the cusp of a decision. You need to take this as a nonanswer, as I have no idea what the schools you apply to will think. But as a generalization, for highly-selective, research-strong schools, a brief research experience is not going to make any difference anyway.

You could of course consider submitting the week after the research experience begins, so a start date will be on the primary application.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

One of SDN's posters who is an adcomm has said that personal medical circumstances do not count as clinical experience (at least at her school).

I wasn't thinking of it in terms of a clinical experience (although it was my earliest in-depth exposure to medicine), but rather as an experience providing a different perspective on disease, or at least cancer, compared to someone who has little or no direct experience with it from a non-clinical standpoint. Any doctor can (or at least should be able to) describe the clinical implications of cancer and the general treatment course, but without some understanding of the disease's impact, it would be harder for them to empathize with patients. By my way of thinking, empathy is a crucial component of compassion, and because doctors must be able to provide compassionate care for their patients, they should feel empathy for those patients.

She also said that having a physician parent can get you partial points toward shadowing as you're more likely to already know what you're getting into.

Now that is interesting. Something I hadn't even considered.

A negative about bringing up past medical issues is that it opens the door to questions about your current health. You can't afford to come across as other than completely reassuring on this topic.

No worries there. I'm completely healthy these days (or rather these past 13 years). I don't even get anything more than a mild 1-2 day case of the sniffles at the peak of flu season. I guess my immune system decided to compensate for it's one major failure 😛

You could of course consider submitting the week after the research experience begins, so a start date will be on the primary application.

That's also something I hadn't thought about. Ideally, the research experience that I'm hoping will work out should start at the beginning of June. AMCAS primary applications can be submitted starting on or around June 15, right? That should give me a week or two of experience in the lab before I can submit my primary anyways. Not ideal (and perhaps ultimately irrelevant), but better than nothing.

 

[Howisbabbyformd]

-MCAT scheduled for this coming May. Without a lot of prep work, I managed a 35 on the free MCAT available from the AAMC. I will be (and have already begun) working my butt off before taking the real thing .

Don't let that test fool you. It is much easier than what you'll see on the real deal. For one, the VR passages on the real test seemed much longer than AAMC 3R (I think that's the free one) and my BS section was just more difficult compared to that one, although I do feel that the PS section was fairly close, but still easier than the real test. As you mentioned you're already doing, just keep studying for your test, you will be glad you did 🙂.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

Don't let that test fool you. It is much easier than what you'll see on the real deal. For one, the VR passages on the real test seemed much longer than AAMC 3R (I think that's the free one) and my BS section was just plain difficult compared to that one, although I do feel that the PS section was fairly close, but still easier than the real test. As you mentioned you're already doing, just keep studying for your test, you will be glad you did 🙂.

Haha I suspected they made their easiest test the free one. You'd think from a business perspective that they would do the opposite though. Offer the hardest test for free so that people freak out and pay for all the other tests for extra practice! Either way, it was enough of a confidence booster to keep me from freaking out without lulling me into a false sense of security 😎

PS Luv your username. One of my favorite internet memes!

 

[Catalystik]

AMCAS primary applications can be submitted starting on or around June 15, right? That should give me a week or two of experience in the lab before I can submit my primary anyways. Not ideal (and perhaps ultimately irrelevant), but better than nothing.

You can submit the first week of June, though the pplication becomes available for you to fill it in earlier in May.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

Ok, some things have changed from my last post and I just wanted to run it by you guys.

1) One of my friends is involved in a community service organization here on campus (they raise money to help build schools in China), and he recently asked me if I would be interested in joining. Despite my interest in joining (I'm a huge proponent of education for everyone), I had initially turned him down because of the increased responsibility with the graphics editorship. We are about to submit our issue for publication though, so my graphics time commitment is going to decrease dramatically in about 2 weeks. I told my friend that I'd like to join (and will probably start with them in the next week or two). Would medical schools care about such a short stint of non-medical community service, even if I plan to continue it until I graduate? Would they look badly on my joining it so soon before applying to medical school, especially considering I will also start researching in April (if all goes well) and continue that through most of the summer. I don't want to come across as desperate haha. I'm just trying to fill my free time with useful and interesting activities because I strongly regret not doing that during my sophomore year.

2) Do medical schools consider legacies with any extra value? I know that varies drastically for undergraduate universities, but I know nothing about how it works for medical schools. My dad's school (Hershey Medical School - Penn State) is not really my first choice and definitely won't be the only one I apply to, but would they look at my application any more favorably because of my dad's ties to the school?

3a) I've set up to shadow a pediatric oncologist or two over spring break for 10-20 hours. I've already shadowed an emergency medicine/family practice doctor in an urgent care setting for 50+ hours. Can you think of any other specialties I should look into or does it not really matter apart from personal interest?

3b) Would medical schools discount the shadowing experience if they know that I shadowed a family member? I personally think it was a more rewarding experience because the doctor had much more of a vested interest in instructing me, but I can see how medical schools might be wary of how much shadowing actually happened. Have any of you experienced a similar situation?

Thanks! Back to my MCAT studying for now 😛

 

[Catalystik]

1) IMO, you need clinical experience more, but any community service is nice to see. If you have the time, go for it.

2) Legacy is unlikely to help much. You might be offered a courtesy interview even though you fell out of their parameters, but after that, you'd have to sell yourself. Adn I've seen a report on SDN that legacy can actually hurt if your parent isn't regularly sending in donations.

3) You have enough variety as it is. If you have extra time, I'd encourage you to actually work with sick people to get more clinical experience (sorry to keep nagging).

4) Shadowing a family member is fine. An LOR from one is not.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

1) If you have extra time, I'd encourage you to actually work with sick people to get more clinical experience (sorry to keep nagging).

It's not nagging, and I am working on it 🙂

I didn't mention it in the post but I'm going to see if I can get into a second volunteer position at the medical center, this time in the emergency department. It would be 2-4 hours a week for the rest of the semester, so probably another 14-28 hours there. If I stay here over the summer for research, I'll also be able to continue volunteering.

Part of the reason my volunteering hours are low is that I have not been able to volunteer over the summer because I have gone home. Hospitals (at least the ones where I live) want you to commit to at least 6 months (and usually they want a year) of volunteering or they won't accept you, and as a student I can only give them my 3 summer months.

4) Shadowing a family member is fine. An LOR from one is not.

Ok. I was going to ask the nurse practitioner (a doctor of nursing) who has been there pretty much every time I've shadowed for a LOR and I was worried that might send up a red flag: "why didn't she get the doctor she shadowed to write the letter?" If I just explain that the doctor was a family member, that would be fine hopefully.

 

[Catalystik]

It would be unusual that you'd need a clinician's LOR at all, BTW. It's fine to use the NP as the contact person in the Experiences section.

Can you volunteer to help in your parent's office while home on breaks? A nursing home is also a place it would be easier to get in as a volunteer. If the ER gig works out, that would be great for this semester.

 

[RaspberryBlu]

It would be unusual that you'd need a clinician's LOR at all, BTW. It's fine to use the NP as the contact person in the Experiences section.

I just thought it might be a useful extra letter since my volunteer supervisors may not know me well enough by the time June rolls around but the NP has known me for at least 6 months and known of me for over a year. I already have the 3 academic LORs worked out (I think they should all be decent to strong).

Can you volunteer to help in your parent's office while home on breaks? A nursing home is also a place it would be easier to get in as a volunteer. If the ER gig works out, that would be great for this semester.

Unfortunately, the urgent care office is part of a chain rather than a privately operated office run by my dad. I'm not sure what additional hoops I would have to jump through to get a position as a volunteer there. I can look into it, but because it is back home, I wouldn't be able to volunteer there until August. That wouldn't help me out much this cycle but it's probably worth pursuing. I also had no idea that nursing home volunteering counted as clinical experience. Thanks for the ideas.