Guidance please

[ballen]

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I'm a 51 year old who has worked in pharmaceuticals for 20 years and have a good life, financially sound, but I truly want to share the second half of my life as a physician. I have matriculated already in the early 90's but had to stop (in good standing) so that I could deal with my sexuality -was a rough time to take in "both" life-changing experiences - something had to give and my medical career came to a stop. Over the years took a great job in pharma and started paying my loans. My career took off, but I am now realizing a need to resume my path into medicine.

I realize the time and expense (can be covered with no debt) and sacrifices. I've done the due diligence. But, I'm open to further opinion. Family is supportive and most friends are supportive, confident in my contributing to medicine and health.

I've had good conversations with 5 medical school Admissions Directors. Differing views but all 5 had a central concern is "would I stop again?" Age was interesting for each. They felt I could add "substance" but that I might experience ageism. I could not imagine ever "stopping" again, as I'm out of the closet and definitely self actualized. My career has been great and I'm way way too young to just retire - I will work until I'm dead (I smile here, but true). I'm not a workaholic but I enjoy being productive, social, etc.

Please, hypothetically - would any of you have a bias studying or interning or having an "old guy" in your residency program? I look young and have mix very well. But age could cause others to be unnerved.

Please share your thoughts.
Thanks




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[BurghStudent]

I wouldn't have an issue. Some of my classmates are older, and had successful careers before realizing medicine was the way. It would be really interesting to have that perspective in the classroom and on the wards.

 

[bashwell]

Sure, age is one thing, but I think a bigger issue is whether you as an older, mature, experienced person would be willing to listen to or even be subordinate to attendings (as well as other faculty and staff) who could be younger than you or much younger than you, and basically to do what you're told when you're told. Medicine can be very strict, rigorous, hierarchical, and some older guys might chafe at the hierarchy because they feel like they know better etc (and many times it might be justifiable, but you still have to put up with it).

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

The thing is you might be next to retirement by the time you'll be a fellow. While being a med student and resident can be great it is often soul crushing and exhausting at the same time.
The issue is quite simple - lifespan. Now there are some doctors that practice until they are 100+ but those are rare and exceptional individuals. Go be volunteer EMT for a few months - feel the satisfaction and exhaustion after a 24 hour shift , now multiply that by 5 and that's how it feels to be on call.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I think bashwell's point of whether or not you can stand being bossed around by 26 year olds, sometimes not in the most polite manners, is key.

 

[Psai]

51 is not the time to be going into medicine

 

[MatCauthon]

There must be another way to live out your dreams rather than following the rigid, system-defined career path of being a physician. Just saying because I don't think a lot doctors don't seem that happy these days either. If you are already financially free there must be a ton of other way to outgrow your past regrets than going back to med school.

 

[Taddy Mason]

There must be another way to live out your dreams rather than following the rigid, system-defined career path of being a physician. Just saying because I don't think a lot doctors don't seem that happy these days either. If you are already financially free there must be a ton of other way to outgrow your past regrets than going back to med school.

So they're happy...

 

[Levo]

OP, would you consider PA school? In my impression, PA programs tend to be very receptive to older applicants seeking a second career. The big advantage is that since the training is much shorter (2-3 years of school, then no residency training), you'd get more years of good use out of your training. It's also easier to customize your career as a PA to work as much as your time and energy allows, rather than being a physician, which would lock you into a certain lifestyle after residency. I have heard of doctors who practice into their 70s, but they are all very accomplished physicians who have been in practice for many years, which allowed them to tailor their work to their special needs related to being older. That would be much harder to do for someone who's just entering the profession and doesn't yet have much seniority.

 

[Haybrant]

dude who cares what people here think, just do what you want to do, you're not going to be raging with the 25 yo's on a nightly basis anyway. Just go work hard and become a physician.

 

[Foot Fetish]

We got some people in their 40's in my school. No one cares. Go for it. YOLO.

 

[wxman393]

dude who cares what people here think, just do what you want to do, you're not going to be raging with the 25 yo's on a nightly basis anyway. Just go work hard and become a physician.

Agreed. I'm in my 30s but I have numerous classmates that are in their 40s/early 50s. Do what you wanna do when you wanna do it.

Just be ready to be an attending when many of your peers are thinking about retirement!


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[Manual Disimpaction]

That would be tough man

 

[ChrisMack390]

Oh I should have mentioned in my first post - I do know a guy graduating from a very reputable MD school in the Northeast this year that is late 40 or early 50s.

 

[LutGholein]

51 years--- so you're looking at 1 year at minimum(assuming you get in the first cycle) to get accepted to med school. Plus 4 years of med school. 3 years(assuming you pick the shortest type of residency) residency.

So we are looking at you being a 59 year old attending bare minimum. I think med schools to some degree want to find applicants who can have both impact and longevity in the field and at 59 years I think that last part might come into question. But you should pursue your dream if you really want it-- just understand that Adcoms probably are doing the same mental math when they look at your app.

 

[ballen]

All: Excellent advice - I really appreciate these insights. Thanks! Maybe PA is an option. I take direction well from nearly anyone (given circumstance), but the point regarding bossy attendings and residents is helpful/ noted! It's gonna be a challenge, regardless. I've also had some tough bosses and arrogant VPs and Directors in Big Pharma, but the pressure isn't the same - so I'm taking good notes from you all. At worst, I can still absorb skills from such die-hards - hopefully. I'm typically rational and I listen well.

Lots to think about in these next months in completing the applications. MCAT bites, but I've heard that I should get used to "tests" - constant learning.

If anyone knows any docs or PAs in the NJ-NYC-Philly area who are open to letting me shadow, I'd be honored.


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[Tenk]

You should not do this. Medicine is just a job. This is not some mystical art anymore where physicians are well respected and revered. Medicine is 90% business and 10% some healing process touchy feely stuff. Hell I routinely get accused of being in the pockets of big pharma and I'm a damn ED doc.

 

[ballen]

Any other thoughts?


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[GoljansRightBicep]

Any other thoughts?

I second taking a real hard look into becoming a Physician Assistant. That career could satisfy a lot of the desires you have, and would take less time to actualize. Not to mention you wouldn't have to go through nearly as many rigors in the training process.

For what it's worth, I thank God almost every day that I'm young, healthy, and single with minimal responsibilities outside of medical school. This is a really involved and arduous process, and I certainly would not want to go through this later in life.

Best of luck with whatever path you choose! Kudos for asking strangers on the internet what they think.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

One of my residency grads last year was >50. She was super happy. Went into a fellowship she loves.

Is this a good financial decision? Probably not. But perhaps it's the right decision for you anyway.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

There's a guy in his 50s in my class and he fits in pretty well. The biggest thing is don't act awkward about your age and be proud of it and the extra life experience you have to share. Do that and you'll pretty much fit in. The guy actually gets the most crap from professors (jokingly) but we students don't really care.

 

[it'sabeautifullife]

FWIW, OP, I have been accepted wholeheartedly as a med student in her fifties. Feel free to message me any time if you would like to talk more about it.

 

[Futuredoctor1234]

I heard good advice somewhere once, and it was like "you're going to be 60 anyway. You might as well be a doctor." Unless you believe in reincarnation or something, this is literally your last chance to pursue your dream. Ever. In the history of the universe. I say don't listen to people who say that you're too old - you clearly have the stamina and passion that people in medicine need. Even if you only work for 10 years and help 10,000 people (I'm sure you'll help many more), that's 10,000 people whose lives are changed because of you. I think that if you want it badly enough, you shouldn't listen to anyone calling you too old. I'm going straight from undergrad and I can guarantee I would be happy to go to school with someone with so much life experience. Just my 2 cents, but people on this site can be downright rude and it isn't the kindest place to look for advice regarding the rest of your life. If you want to do it, do it. It really is that simple. No excuses.

 

[Futuredoctor1234]

Also, regarding PA, it is an amazing career, but you said it yourself that you "truly want to be a physician". Becoming a PA because you're scared will just leave you unfulfilled. Go to PA school if you want to be a PA. Go to med school if you want to be a doctor. PA school is not the shorter path to physician fulfillment, and I think people who go to PA school only because they think med school is out of the question are sorely let down.

My analogy is like if you want to be a pilot and instead go to flight attendant school because it's shorter or easier or whatever excuse you give. Both careers are fantastic and well respected, but unless you're flying that plane, you're never really going to be satisfied. Follow your heart. This is your life, not anyone else's.

 

[it'sabeautifullife]

The desire to go after some unfulfilled dream of being a physician who's passionate about healthcare will quickly lose meaning in your first semester.

Just the opposite is happening for me, but I could definitely see myself feeling that way had I done med school in my twenties. I tell the younger people all the time, I don't know how they're doing it. And agree completely with going with any other thing if you can see yourself doing it and being fulfilled. This is a rough road, no doubt about it.

 

[Futuredoctor1234]

No offense, but you sound very naive and a little out of your domain to be giving advice here.

The desire to go after some unfulfilled dream of being a physician who's passionate about healthcare will quickly lose meaning in your first semester. The hours that you put in for studying and training are brutal and unforgiving. The only thing that keeps me dedicated is because I have no idea what else I would do. So I mean this sincerely: if you can see yourself doing anything else, do that.

I love medicine and I know that I'm in the right place, but I hate knowing that I'll be working long hours for the rest of my life, sacrificing sleep, and struggling to find time to pursue other interests. And I'm in my 20's. When I'm in my 60's, I'll be looking forward to reading for leisure, traveling to places I've wanted to see, and spending time with friends and family.

OP, you say you're not a workaholic. What field of medicine do you think would be right for you? What is it exactly that you see yourself doing that you can't do without the MD/DO? If you can't answer that yet, you aren't ready to commit.

.

 

[Futuredoctor1234]

No offense, but you sound very naive and a little out of your domain to be giving advice here.

The desire to go after some unfulfilled dream of being a physician who's passionate about healthcare will quickly lose meaning in your first semester. The hours that you put in for studying and training are brutal and unforgiving. The only thing that keeps me dedicated is because I have no idea what else I would do. So I mean this sincerely: if you can see yourself doing anything else, do that.

I love medicine and I know that I'm in the right place, but I hate knowing that I'll be working long hours for the rest of my life, sacrificing sleep, and struggling to find time to pursue other interests. And I'm in my 20's. When I'm in my 60's, I'll be looking forward to reading for leisure, traveling to places I've wanted to see, and spending time with friends and family.

OP, you say you're not a workaholic. What field of medicine do you think would be right for you? What is it exactly that you see yourself doing that you can't do without the MD/DO? If you can't answer that yet, you aren't ready to commit.

.

 

[Levo]

Also, regarding PA, it is an amazing career, but you said it yourself that you "truly want to be a physician". Becoming a PA because you're scared will just leave you unfulfilled. Go to PA school if you want to be a PA. Go to med school if you want to be a doctor. PA school is not the shorter path to physician fulfillment, and I think people who go to PA school only because they think med school is out of the question are sorely let down.

My analogy is like if you want to be a pilot and instead go to flight attendant school because it's shorter or easier or whatever excuse you give. Both careers are fantastic and well respected, but unless you're flying that plane, you're never really going to be satisfied. Follow your heart. This is your life, not anyone else's.

I'm not a PA student so I don't have a horse in this race, but comparing a PA to a flight attendant is a ridiculous metaphor. PAs can do most of what doctors do. They just require oversight to do so.

 

[Futuredoctor1234]

I'm not a PA student so I don't have a horse in this race, but comparing a PA to a flight attendant is a ridiculous metaphor. PAs can do most of what doctors do. They just require oversight to do so.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but most analogies use unrelated things to make a point. I'm in no way saying a PA is at the same level as a flight attendant? I literally started by saying that it was an amazing career choice and very well respected. The point is that you're not "flying the plane" (aka in charge) as a PA. How are you actually offended by that metaphor?? Is this real life right now?? It's talking about the level of responsibility in PA vs MD/DO.

 

[Futuredoctor1234]

You should reread my post.

I'm not unhappy and I'm not dispassionate. I love the field that I'm in very much, but I'm not foolish enough to think that there aren't plenty of other wonderful careers that would also be fulfilling, well-paying, and less draining. The path to becoming a physician is a draining one. Being a physician is often draining. You will make a significant number of sacrifices to pursue this career that you wouldn't make in other careers, and at the end of the day, it's just a job.

You still sound naive. It took you no time at all to read my post and respond with Burnett's Law. The desire to fulfill some dream of being a physician and the passion for caring for patients becomes meaningless when you're totally burned out at 3am and have another day of memorizing minutiae to wake up to. Knowing that you thoroughly investigated other careers and wouldn't be happy pursing something else is just about the only thing that retains its meaning enough to keep you motivated. That's what I was getting at.

.

 

[Levo]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but most analogies use unrelated things to make a point. I'm in no way saying a PA is at the same level as a flight attendant? I literally started by saying that it was an amazing career choice and very well respected. The point is that you're not "flying the plane" (aka in charge) as a PA. How are you actually offended by that metaphor?? Is this real life right now?? It's talking about the level of responsibility in PA vs MD/DO.

The reason the metaphor doesn't work is because the actual mechanics of what a pilot and a flight attendant do are completely dissimilar. A pilot steers the plane. A flight attendant spends all of their time the cabin and doesn't even touch the controls. The mechanics of being a PA on the other hand, are very similar to the mechanics of being a doctor. You assess patients and make decisions regarding further workup and treatment. The key difference is that as an MD/DO, the buck stops with you, whereas a PA has oversight. A much better metaphor would have been being the plane's pilot versus being the plane's first officer.

 

[ballen]

Thank you, all for this spirited discussion - it's excellent! Each of your points are well taken. I genuinely appreciate the variations in viewpoint and you each provide logic. The analogies have helped (the use and the meanings are beneficial ).

I provided the salient points to justify my request for guidance in my first post. But to add...
I've worked 21 years in Big pharma, holding a blend of wonderful roles through drug discovery and global regulatory affairs. I even was appointed head of a 3-person focused department in regulatory affairs-policy). My point is that I've held financially sound roles, but now would like to give back. My career has been excellent ! And im humble and far from a know it all.

Also, I've been fortunate to already have travelled to beautiful places and I even lived in the center of Paris two blocks from the Louvre during my time with Sanofi. I'm fulfilled, yet not.

The realities of the Admissions Committees, as many have alluded, are critical - I'm prepared for "no" and hopeful for "yes". So I'm 'listening' to you!


Generating a healthy student network and learning from younger experienced professionals is an expectation I hope Is realized. Regardless, as many of you have addressed, remaining logical is paramount. You each seem passionate.

----------------------------
Any advice on how to locate someone who will let me shadow? (NJ area)


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[Wjldenver]

Thank you, all for this spirited discussion - it's excellent! Each of your points are well taken. I genuinely appreciate the variations in viewpoint and you each provide logic. The analogies have helped (the use and the meanings are beneficial ).

I provided the salient points to justify my request for guidance in my first post. But to add...
I've worked 21 years in Big pharma, holding a blend of wonderful roles through drug discovery and global regulatory affairs. I even was appointed head of a 3-person focused department in regulatory affairs-policy). My point is that I've held financially sound roles, but now would like to give back. My career has been excellent ! And im humble and far from a know it all.

Also, I've been fortunate to already have travelled to beautiful places and I even lived in the center of Paris two blocks from the Louvre during my time with Sanofi. I'm fulfilled, yet not.

The realities of the Admissions Committees, as many have alluded, are critical - I'm prepared for "no" and hopeful for "yes". So I'm 'listening' to you!


Generating a healthy student network and learning from younger experienced professionals is an expectation I hope Is realized. Regardless, as many of you have addressed, remaining logical is paramount. You each seem passionate.

----------------------------
Any advice on how to locate someone who will let me shadow? (NJ area)


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...Interesting reading your posts. Yeah, if it was me, I would probably go the PA route at age 51 because it has a faster ROI. But on the flip side, I've seen stories of med school students (MD & DO) matriculating at your age. Just do a google search for (MD/DO/PA) organizations in NJ, make a few calls, and you will get some opportunities to shadow. As an aside, I have a friend who graduated from Purdue and just retired at age 51 from Lilly after a 30 year career. You definitely have high energy. Because my friend from Lilly just wants to travel now and do nothing comparable to med school at age 51. Good luck to you.

 

[Dylasa]

I'm a 48 year old 2nd year. You can do this, but make sure you're in excellent health and you have lots of support, especially if you have kids. I haven't always "fit in," but it's not really necessary if you have a solid support system outside of school. I'm pretty reserved and very busy with my kids outside of school, though.

I do great in my classes as long as I don't let myself get too fatigued, and my experience is appreciated by my professors. "Maturity" comes up a lot on my evaluations, too. On the flip side, I do sometimes get fatigued, and I have to remind myself daily to have a learner's mind. I've found it is difficult to give up the perks of being the expert in exchange for the humility of knowing very little, all day, every day. I don't mind being yelled at by younger people for messing up. I mind messing up, period. And for all of my maturity, the fatigue, solitude and very steep, never-ending learning curve make me pretty grumpy sometimes. There have absolutely been moments when I thought, "WTF am I doing???"

Look into PA schools - I have friends who are VERY happy doing that, and if I were to start now, that's probably the route I'd take. Make sure you're doing this for reasons that will stick, even when you feel like crap in every single way. Maintain your optimal health - that's going to be key, for real.

 

[ballen]

Excellent advise and encouragement . Positive points have a beneficial and clear effect in communicating logic and reality! . Thanks for this input!


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[kineticdeux]

If you had hot daughters that you would bring to work, I would welcome you in my residency program.

 

[LePepe]

Hey OP, I admire your willingness to try new things, even in your middle age.

Personally, I feel like going to med school this late doesn't make a lot of sense. But it seems like you have your heart set on it, so I'd say just go for it. YOLO

Wish you the best.

 

[AcademicNeurosurgery]

Many people's advice here is based on their personal values and beliefs. Of course, the decision is ultimately yours. As mentioned, the earliest you will finish school is ~58. If you worked until 70, that's at most 12 years of practicing. Is spending 7-8 years of training to be able to practice for 12 years worth it to you? Only you can decide that.

It seems like you have significant experience with self-reflection so I'd take some serious time to think about this. Write out exactly what your motivations are for pursuing medicine and see if you can't fulfill those desires through other means. A pro/con list of what you value versus what sacrifices you will have to make will give you a relatively objective way to make this decision.