Gundersen Lutheran, WI

[lapooh]

Any opinions on the Gundersen Lutheran program in Wisconsin from anyone familiar with the program ? It seemed like a great program for anyone staying in general internal medicine, with plenty of autonomy and residents who really seem to have fun together. Additionally, it is a good fit for me in terms of location.

But I am unsure how to rank it considering I might want to subspecialize, perhaps Hem-Onc or GI (I do know that GI is super-competitive from anywhere ). Plans are unstable, and I probably will change my plans during residency. However I want to get a general feel of how residents do in terms of fellowships from there.

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[Gibbles]

Yeah, I'm a second year resident at Gundersen Lutheran and what the other person said is totally untrue.

The program lacks any sort of malignant potential whatsoever, and in fact, I would say that it is quite the opposite with a plethora of excellent clinicians and teachers.

In addition, our program director has never coached us at all about the interview process and any resident that desires to go on interviews with interviewees, regardless of their personal opinion of the program, are allowed to go. In fact, any and all residents will meet with a potential applicant during their interview day and have time to speak with them. This program is very much a self-learning program. You will spoon fed what you need to know to survive just like any other program, but the rest is up to you.

I'm not sure when the other person was a medical student here, but I've never encountered that sort of atmosphere as a resident, and to be honest, I question whether or not they were actually a student here, because I've never seen a medical student struggle here unless they inevitably stuggle to be a physician or simply lack the skills to function in a team environment.

I recommend an interview to see the what the program has to offer in terms of training and benefits. On campus resident townhome living that is fully furnished and includes all utilities paid from the start at only $585 per month. Town of 60,000 people (La Crosse) + ~20,000 in surrouding communities with ample cultural and entertainment opportunities. Family-healthy and family-oriented residency program. Probably the best pay out of any residency program in the United States with excellent board pass rates. State-of-the-art medical record system in the form of EPIC with numerous awards for implentation.

In addition, we have individuals that go on for hospitalist, general internist, and fellowship positions from here. Personally, I've never met someone from this program that did not match into the Fellowship of their choice.

Again, TC, do your research, visit the institution for an interview, and then, come back and hang out with us for a day and see how our teams work. You won't be disappointed.

 

[Internal med]

You would have to be crazy to select this hospital for residency! Don’t let them fool you with the enticement of benefits, because they will work you to the bone!

La Crosse would have made Hitler proud! It seems that La Crosse is 99.9% white, blue eyed people. You have to have a certain personality to fit into the town/hospital, otherwise they will destroy you! Their lack in diversity makes for little in variety/diversity in patients that you will see. You will not see any HIV and also no African Americans. Because of the hard hours you have to work in the first year, most interns will tell you that they were depressed for most of the internship year. The only hope of getting a fellowship is in hem/onc at the hospital or maybe going to the U of W. Gundersen is huge in La Crosse, but outside of La Crosse, no one has heard of them making it even harder to get a fellowship. If you ask around the town, many will say it is a good hospital but those who know it well will tell you it is not the place it used to be. It is money driven and self-centered. It has been said that staff doctors have been asked to take a pay cut, $26,000.00/yr, to pay for the new hospital, if they do not, they have to explain why they will not to those in charge, The Gundersen Family. They had 2-3 residents fail boards last year. 2 residents changed residency and left. They did not match 2 residents in the match as word is getting out of what Gundersen is becoming. Last year was the first year for hem/onc fellowship. They took 2 residents, both from their program. The first one decided not to take it, the other quit after a few months as they were on call for 30 days straight. In a survey of residents, 1/3 stated that they would have not chosen this hospital if they were able to do it over again. If you do choose to interview at this hospital, consider yourself warned. The residents are coached on what to say during the interview process and they are selective in who can be part of the interview process. It was told to me that a resident posted their honest opinion about the hospital on a blog such as this. It was found out, put on probation and almost kicked out of residency. I would image that this is part of the reason there is limited blogging information or truthful information written about this hospital. It has been said that they pick-on one resident a year to destroy. This will continue throughout their residency.

This extends not only from residents but also to nursing staff. It has been told that nurses have been wrongfully accused of doing something and threaten to be fired. Many have been fired. It was told that a nurse was fired after mistakenly putting the wrong medication list in an ambulatory clinic. The list was meant for review of medications and was a one time thing that was quickly discovered. At no point, where medications prescribed based on this medication list. Nursing staff have been escorted out of the hospital after 26 years of work for similar minor mistakes.

So, if you interview, beware of this hospital as it dangerous place! If you do not care about your medical career or a fellowship, this place is for you! Do yourself a favor and stay away from this hospital!!!!

 

[DreamingTheLive]

I spent a month there as a medical student. It seems that it is not at all what it cracks up to be. I was there when the program director sat down with all the residents and "coached them" on what to say during the interview. It appears that they are selective in who they allow to go to the interviews. It is a very malignant program. I have heard that they filter out residents for sub specialties to make themselves look better. They were very rude to me. I would not go there. Most of the residents don't seem very happy. Beware!!

You would have to be crazy to select this hospital for residency! Don’t let them fool you with the enticement of benefits, because they will work you to the bone!

La Crosse would have made Hitler proud! It seems that La Crosse is 99.9% white, blue eyed people. You have to have a certain personality to fit into the town/hospital, otherwise they will destroy you! Their lack in diversity makes for little in variety/diversity in patients that you will see. You will not see any HIV and also no African Americans. Because of the hard hours you have to work in the first year, most interns will tell you that they were depressed for most of the internship year. The only hope of getting a fellowship is in hem/onc at the hospital or maybe going to the U of W. Gundersen is huge in La Crosse, but outside of La Crosse, no one has heard of them making it even harder to get a fellowship. If you ask around the town, many will say it is a good hospital but those who know it well will tell you it is not the place it used to be. It is money driven and self-centered. It has been said that staff doctors have been asked to take a pay cut, $26,000.00/yr, to pay for the new hospital, if they do not, they have to explain why they will not to those in charge, The Gundersen Family. They had 2-3 residents fail boards last year. 2 residents changed residency and left. They did not match 2 residents in the match as word is getting out of what Gundersen is becoming. Last year was the first year for hem/onc fellowship. They took 2 residents, both from their program. The first one decided not to take it, the other quit after a few months as they were on call for 30 days straight. In a survey of residents, 1/3 stated that they would have not chosen this hospital if they were able to do it over again. If you do choose to interview at this hospital, consider yourself warned. The residents are coached on what to say during the interview process and they are selective in who can be part of the interview process. It was told to me that a resident posted their honest opinion about the hospital on a blog such as this. It was found out, put on probation and almost kicked out of residency. I would image that this is part of the reason there is limited blogging information or truthful information written about this hospital. It has been said that they pick-on one resident a year to destroy. This will continue throughout their residency.

This extends not only from residents but also to nursing staff. It has been told that nurses have been wrongfully accused of doing something and threaten to be fired. Many have been fired. It was told that a nurse was fired after mistakenly putting the wrong medication list in an ambulatory clinic. The list was meant for review of medications and was a one time thing that was quickly discovered. At no point, where medications prescribed based on this medication list. Nursing staff have been escorted out of the hospital after 26 years of work for similar minor mistakes.

So, if you interview, beware of this hospital as it dangerous place! If you do not care about your medical career or a fellowship, this place is for you! Do yourself a favor and stay away from this hospital!!!!

Lmao. :troll:

Differential Diagnosis:
1. Community-Program Gunner D-bag (didn't even know community gunners existed, huh)
2. D-bag (Systemic)
3. Troll

 

[DrMomtoFandH]

I am limited by time right now but I have to wholeheartedly disagree with the slanderous post above. I did residency at GL and was accepted to a fast-track fellowship (which says something) - the only reason I left early (I'm a research nerd). In fact, I was offered 2 different fast-track programs. Many people match to fellowships - the years before me included matches to rheumatology, GI, cardiology, pulmonary/critical care, palliative care and hematology/oncology. All of the residents in the year above me matched. In my year, 3 of us matched to fellowship. I had no problem getting interviews and was able to do a lot more to boost my interview at GL than I would have done at another institution (research, committee work, etc).

Residency is residency. It is hard work and can be depressing at times. This is a universal phenomenon. Everyone gets burn-out at some point. You'll get exposure to internal medicine in all programs. What sets the different programs apart are the little details - benefits, autonomy, camaraderie, and different perks.

Were I to do it all over again, I would without hesitation select GL. When I have a bit more time, I will elaborate on some of the extraordinary advantages it offers compared to all other programs.

The post above seems a bit like sour grapes. Sorry person-who-I'm-sure-I-know, I do think GL has a good program.

 

[Internal med]

Again, I strongly urge you to be careful before choosing Gundersen as your place for residency. No I am not a medical student, gunner, or D-bag. I do not want a residency at the hospital as I have already completed one. I am a real person with clear understanding of the workings of the hospital. Based on the responses in the forum, it is safe to say that the hospital has a strong polarizing effect. Everything that has been stated is factual and true, not an opinion based argument. Having completed residency at the hospital, I speak the truth and on the behalf of residents at the hospital who are yet to complete their time, whom I am in continual contact. It is not a good environment to be a part! They do offer fare benefits i.e. housing, salary, skiing passes, nice X-mas dinner, etc. but you will pay for it with work overload, long hours, very little free time, your sanity, etc. Year after year they get cited for bullying, being forceful, and coercion to the point of abuse or intimidating the residents. They are very intense about it! It is insane how forceful and intimidating they can be. Again, two residents have left the IM program and now a surgery resident is leaving for reasons stated above. They match largely international graduates and D.O.'s, if they completely match. In talking to the D.O.'s they do not feel that they are treated equally. The list goes on… If there is a positive to be said about Gundersen it would be if you meet or live up to their standard, very few do, the experience can be tolerable as seen in a few positive responses. Since being done with residency, the residents that I have talked to agree with everything that is being said. I write these things as I had no idea of the extent of problems the residency has and how well they hide it. They do hide them well and if you choose to match, unfortunately, you too will understand what I am describing.

 

[Gibbles]

Again, I strongly urge you to be careful before choosing Gundersen as your place for residency. No I am not a medical student, gunner, or D-bag. I do not want a residency at the hospital as I have already completed one. I am a real person with clear understanding of the workings of the hospital. Based on the responses in the forum, it is safe to say that the hospital has a strong polarizing effect. Everything that has been stated is factual and true, not an opinion based argument. Having completed residency at the hospital, I speak the truth and on the behalf of residents at the hospital who are yet to complete their time, whom I am in continual contact. It is not a good environment to be a part! They do offer fare benefits i.e. housing, salary, skiing passes, nice X-mas dinner, etc. but you will pay for it with work overload, long hours, very little free time, your sanity, etc. Year after year they get cited for bullying, being forceful, and coercion to the point of abuse or intimidating the residents. They are very intense about it! It is insane how forceful and intimidating they can be. Again, two residents have left the IM program and now a surgery resident is leaving for reasons stated above. They match largely international graduates and D.O.'s, if they completely match. In talking to the D.O.'s they do not feel that they are treated equally. The list goes on… If there is a positive to be said about Gundersen it would be if you meet or live up to their standard, very few do, the experience can be tolerable as seen in a few positive responses. Since being done with residency, the residents that I have talked to agree with everything that is being said. I write these things as I had no idea of the extent of problems the residency has and how well they hide it. They do hide them well and if you choose to match, unfortunately, you too will understand what I am describing.

Personally, I did my residency at Gundersen Lutheran and I don't agree with a single typed sentence that you've posted with the exception that if you go Gundersen, you go there to work hard. You work hard, because that's what you do when you take care of patients. During my time there I did encounter multiple individuals that were concerned about getting the job done and taking care of patients. For someone like you, that is apparently unwarranted or unwanted intensity. For someone like me, it was refreshing and prepared me to be an excellent physician as I matched into fellowship at the Mayo Clinic (a place in which I excelled). If you are not comfortable with intensity, working hard, and doing what it takes to take care of people, then Gundersen probablly is not for you. But, if you enjoy that attitude, then Gundersen will not only prepare you to work in an IM clinic or as a Hospitalist, but it will also promote development of skills that no other new physician or new fellow could hope to have from any other institution.

GL is not an elitist haven by any means, but it is one of the few places I've been in my medical career that has encouraged both individual and group learning on a grande scale while also encouraging incredible mentorship and a strong sense of community among the resident population. When you leave Gundersen, you leave a place that does so much right both in terms of patient care and training of individuals. You will find that what is common place at GL will be a bright and new idea anywhere else you plan to go in your career and I can't tell you how times I've already looked brilliant saying we should try this or that approach to patient care at the hospital I work at now, when it is an approach that Gundersen has had for years. A couple more things, those that have left there early or not matched into fellowship have not left because they were "forced out" or "bullied". Some residency programs offer less intensity and slower pace that is more fitting for some learners. But, some of us like to get through residency in 3 years, instead. Each person that has left Gundersen has done so because of financial, family, or personal reasons that should not be disclosed on this website. I can tell you now from personal experience that every single person in the residency program, including the program coordinators and directors, are kind, caring, and most of all understanding. Personally, I delt with significant illness during my time at GL and I've never felt so cared for by people that I was working for in my entire life. You go to Gundersen Lutheran to learn medicine, to learn how to be skilled and excellent, and to learn to be the kind of physician that every patient wants and every medical student wants to be. Personally, I feel as though if you choose not to match at GL, then that is a mistake...both personally and professionally.

 

[1980198]

I cannot speak to everyone's experience at GL, but I was there both as a student and resident. I always felt the atmosphere there was excellent. The attending physcians are there because they want to teach and that is obvious. The residents always supported each other and everyone who was able would help fill in if someone else was ill or their family was ill and they needed someone to work for them. It wasn't a big deal because you knew they would do the same for you (and during my pregnancy I even had some people offer to take call for me; although, I never excepted as I was doing just fine). The program coordinator and directors were always supportive and helpful. They listened to the residents and took our opinions into consideration when adjusting call schedules, designing night float systems, etc... We always felt heard as residents. And they would be there just to listen if you were having a bad day. Residency is hard work, but there was great support staff at GL and the scut work was minimal. GL is not a place to go if you do not want to work and learn to be a good and knowledgable physician. At some other residencies that I have been exposed to, it seemed that many of the residents were just biding their time trying to get to followship. If that is what you are looking for, GL is not the place for you. The residents who will thrive at this program are the ones who want to learn to be good all around physicians before they go to their fellowships or careers in general medicine/hospitalist.

I did my internal medicine residency at GL and am now a general internist in a rural multispecialty medical center. This residency prepared me well for my current position. I did traditional medicine for one year before deciding to do a clinic only practice for personal reasons. My current collegues have been impressed with my knowledge and my care of patients since day one here, and we have tried to recruit other residents from GL because they know it is a high quality program producing high quality physicians.

Without hesitation, I would chose to do my residency at GL if I had to do it all again (there are even days I wish I was back there now 😉).

 

[EUS]

Hello all,
Let me reassure you that the maligning statements mentioned by some forum members are misleading. I am a prior Internal Medicine resident of Gundersen Lutheran. FYI, The program did not contact me to make this statement in its defense. One of the medical students at my current institution brought this to my attention.

I can assure you that during my 3 years at GL, I have received exceptional training and education. I did not come here expecting to receive "academic" training. I chose to go to GL for hands on training essential to become a very good internist. I got that. In the process, I had the opportunity to work with some of the smartest physicians I have known. Yes, you work hard, but within reason. You do NOT work over your ACGME limitations. As an intern, I remember when my resident did not have me come in until noon on weekend call days, and he rounded on the patients with the attending. I in turn did that with my interns as well. Not a lot of programs which do that out there. You have several educational conferences, but residents do have the responsibility to read up on their patients. I had several research opportunities, having presented 3 posters, 1 first author and 1 second author paper before I graduated, which definitely helped my fellowship application.

The atmosphere here is anything BUT malignant. The faculty and the senior residents alike are friendly. Nice thing about a program this size is they know you, your family, your obligations. They are courteous and respectful. Nursing staff is extremely helpful. You receive exceptional training and can be placed into several competitive fellowships, as several past residents including me have been, such as ID, GI, Cardiology, Pulmonary/Critical Care, Heme/Onc, Nephrology, Rheumatology, Endocrinology etc, and this just over the past few years. In terms of the Hematology/Oncology fellowship, I know first hand that this is an excellent program, notwithstanding its early years. The current fellows have received training at par with any academic institution. The first fellow (only one in the class) did drop out as pointed out above, but due to personal reasons, and NOT the work hours/Call schedule as falsely claimed.

This is a professional organization, and don't let anyone talk you out of coming here to take a look if you are truly interested. Please don't allow opprobrious statements such as these dissuade you.

 

[VitruvianMan]

Again, I strongly urge you to be careful before choosing Gundersen as your place for residency. No I am not a medical student, gunner, or D-bag. I do not want a residency at the hospital as I have already completed one. I am a real person with clear understanding of the workings of the hospital. Based on the responses in the forum, it is safe to say that the hospital has a strong polarizing effect. Everything that has been stated is factual and true, not an opinion based argument. Having completed residency at the hospital, I speak the truth and on the behalf of residents at the hospital who are yet to complete their time, whom I am in continual contact. It is not a good environment to be a part! They do offer fare benefits i.e. housing, salary, skiing passes, nice X-mas dinner, etc. but you will pay for it with work overload, long hours, very little free time, your sanity, etc. Year after year they get cited for bullying, being forceful, and coercion to the point of abuse or intimidating the residents. They are very intense about it! It is insane how forceful and intimidating they can be. Again, two residents have left the IM program and now a surgery resident is leaving for reasons stated above. They match largely international graduates and D.O.'s, if they completely match. In talking to the D.O.'s they do not feel that they are treated equally. The list goes on… If there is a positive to be said about Gundersen it would be if you meet or live up to their standard, very few do, the experience can be tolerable as seen in a few positive responses. Since being done with residency, the residents that I have talked to agree with everything that is being said. I write these things as I had no idea of the extent of problems the residency has and how well they hide it. They do hide them well and if you choose to match, unfortunately, you too will understand what I am describing.

I caught word that someone was bad mouthing the program on the forum. It's become a little bit of a joke among the residents, as none of us have any idea how someone could go to the same residency we have and come away with such a dramatically different experience. And I'll be honest, it rubs me the wrong way a little to have my residency misrepresented, but to each his own. Here's my take:

I love Gundersen. It's a perfect blend of academic/community medicine. And I feel it's helped me develop the perfect balance of confidence and happiness as a resident.

The confidence comes from the training I've received here—the hours spent caring for and learning about my patients. Certainly at this end of the training your perspective changes, and the long hours you may have resented previously, become a blessing when you realize how they prepared you for the job market. I feel well prepared to start working on my own, and it's been flattering to field fantastic offers from hospitals who feel I'd make a great addition to their program.

The happiness comes not only from the fulfillment at work, but from the balance Gundersen helps me achieve in my life—the hours spent attending to priorities outside the hospital. I've got a wife and 4 kids who 4 years into residency still adore their father/husband and would tell you that I've been actively involved in their lives. I attribute that sentiment to the family friendly environment at Gundersen, and my ability to be only minutes away from home even when I'm at work. I've got close friends who are not only my colleagues at work, but my neighbors at home. Our kids love each other, our spouses love each other, and perhaps the absolute hardest part of residency is yet to come—saying goodbye when we all go our own directions. I've got time for hobbies and interests. I find time to play basketball and get to the gym several times per week, train for a triathlon, volunteer at a free clinic, mentor a scout troop, and am active in my church community. My life's been pretty full, and I can't complain.

I can honestly say, I won't be surprised if one day wrinkly and old, my wife and I look back over our lives and admit that these years in La Crosse were some of our favorite. I wouldn't have stuck around for an extra chief year if I didn't feel that way. All are entitled to their opinion. My opinion is this—I knew the goals I had for my career in medicine and the challenges I'd face long before I came to Gundersen. I don't blame Gundersen for those challenges, but I do give them the credit for helping me achieve my goals.

 

[Internal med]

I agree, we are all entitled to our own opinion. Everything that has been said is 100% true and factual. They work very hard to hide the problems that they have. Here is my opinion. I could not have picked a worse program!!!!!! So glad to be done with it!