Hackensack Meridian vs. Brown

[jomiha]

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[CrabcakesandFootball]

(Disclaimer on Hackensack WL) This is a tough situation for you considering your SO. Do you know where your SO is going to do rotations? If you and your SO are going to be rotating at the same time you should look into where rotations occur. If you both need to be traveling for them being a 3 hour drive from NYC is a moot point for 2/3 or 3/4 years. If your SO is going to be in NYC for all four years and Hackensack rotations are all around NYC then I would say Hackensack. Otherwise I would think about how much utility you and your SO will be getting for you second, third and possibly fourth years as medical students at both locations.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I would go with brown. Specialty preferences (and romantic partners) are dynamic.

If you find a sudden love for ENT, Plastics, Neurosurg, then your life will be much easier at brown.

One caveat would be if hackensack offered full tuition.

 

[jomiha]

(Disclaimer on Hackensack WL) This is a tough situation for you considering your SO. Do you know where your SO is going to do rotations? If you and your SO are going to be rotating at the same time you should look into where rotations occur. If you both need to be traveling for them being a 3 hour drive from NYC is a moot point for 2/3 or 3/4 years. If your SO is going to be in NYC for all four years and Hackensack rotations are all around NYC then I would say Hackensack. Otherwise I would think about how much utility you and your SO will be getting for you second, third and possibly fourth years as medical students at both locations.

This is a great point thank you

 

[CrabcakesandFootball]

This is a great point thank you

No problem. To me it seems like the draw to Hackensack for you is proximity to your SO. I want to make sure you think about how much time you two will be together during the next few years. Another point does Brown require attendance? I know Hackensack does so that can also play a factor. If brown doesn’t maybe you two can study over a Friday Saturday Sunday together.

 

[KnightDoc]

I would go with brown. Specialty preferences (and romantic partners) are dynamic.

If you find a sudden love for ENT, Plastics, Neurosurg, then your life will be much easier at brown.

One caveat would be if hackensack offered full tuition.

Will it though? I thought Brown's claim to fame was an emphasis on primary care. You seem to always be blinded by rankings, with higher always being better than lower. You also seem to have a thing for Ivies. Brown is #35, not T5 or T10. It's worth noting that it's #14 for primary care, and it is simply not a peer of the other Ivy med schools.

I haven't studied Brown's match list, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But it just doesn't seem to me that a mid tier that emphasizes "the health of individuals and communities through innovative medical education programs, research initiatives, and clinical excellence in service to society and to improve the health and wellness of all" in its mission statement will be a powerhouse in plastics and neurosurgery matches.

Am I wrong, or did you not get past #35 vs. unranked? Even without full tuition, Hackensack is $18K/yr less expensive, PLUS the ability to save the $52K+ in 4th year tuition at Brown, PLUS the ability to sync up with the SO and enter residency in 3 years, PLUS the ability to earn that attending salary a year earlier, which you seem to value so much in other threads. Seems like a total no-brainer to me! 🙂

 

[CrabcakesandFootball]

Will it though? I thought Brown's claim to fame was an emphasis on primary care. You seem to always be blinded by rankings, with higher always being better than lower. You also seem to have a thing for Ivies. Brown is #35, not T5 or T10. It's worth noting that it's #14 for primary care, and it is simply not a peer of the other Ivy med schools.

I haven't studied Brown's match list, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But it just doesn't seem to me that a mid tier that emphasizes "the health of individuals and communities through innovative medical education programs, research initiatives, and clinical excellence in service to society and to improve the health and wellness of all" in its mission statement will be a powerhouse in plastics and neurosurgery matches.

Am I wrong, or did you not get past #35 vs. unranked? Even without full tuition, Hackensack is $18K/yr less expensive, PLUS the ability to save the $52K+ in 4th year tuition at Brown, PLUS the ability to sync up with the SO and enter residency in 3 years, PLUS the ability to earn that attending salary a year earlier, which you seem to value so much in other threads. Seems like a total no-brainer to me! 🙂

Wouldn’t the SO have to match into a Hackensack residency then? The three year track requires a Hackensack residency. I have no idea how a couple match would work with the internal Hackensack match.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Will it though? I thought Brown's claim to fame was an emphasis on primary care. You seem to always be blinded by rankings, with higher always being better than lower. You also seem to have a thing for Ivies. Brown is #35, not T5 or T10. It's worth noting that it's #14 for primary care, and it is simply not a peer of the other Ivy med schools.

I haven't studied Brown's match list, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But it just doesn't seem to me that a mid tier that emphasizes "the health of individuals and communities through innovative medical education programs, research initiatives, and clinical excellence in service to society and to improve the health and wellness of all" in its mission statement will be a powerhouse in plastics and neurosurgery matches.

Am I wrong, or did you not get past #35 vs. unranked? Even without full tuition, Hackensack is $18K/yr less expensive, PLUS the ability to save the $52K+ in 4th year tuition at Brown, PLUS the ability to sync up with the SO and enter residency in 3 years, PLUS the ability to earn that attending salary a year earlier, which you seem to value so much in other threads. Seems like a total no-brainer to me! 🙂

I’ve reccomended and made strong cases for lower ranked schools on this sub forum all the time (ex just reccomended RWJ over tufts earlier today). IMO, 23k per year extra doesn’t justify choosing hackensack over brown, especially since hackensack is increasing student body size and residency placements no longer seem guaranteed after 3 yrs.

Personally, I don’t think significant others are sufficient to justify major life decisions because it often leads to bitterness/ressentiment down the road, in my experience. OP might well feel different and that’s totally fine. It’s just an opinion.

 

[KnightDoc]

Wouldn’t the SO have to match into a Hackensack residency then? The three year track requires a Hackensack residency. I have no idea how a couple match would work with the internal Hackensack match.

Yeah. I just meant they'd be synced up regarding year. Not necessarily working in the same system, although I can't imagine it would be that crazy difficult for the SO to match Hackensack for this reason if they wanted to. As good as it is in Jersey, it's not exactly Mass Gen or Weill Cornell! 🙂

 

[KnightDoc]

I’ve reccomended and made strong cases for lower ranked schools on this sub forum all the time (ex just reccomended RWJ over tufts earlier today). IMO, 23k per year extra doesn’t justify choosing hackensack over brown, especially since hackensack is increasing student body size and residency placements no longer seem guaranteed after 3 yrs.

Personally, I don’t think significant others are sufficient to justify major life decisions because it often leads to bitterness/ressentiment down the road, in my experience. OP might well feel different and that’s totally fine. It’s just an opinion.

Where did you hear that? The whole point of the offering is to funnel people into their system. I don't think it will be as easy to get "guaranteed" competitive residencies in their system after 3 years going forward, due to their increased class size, but a guaranteed Hackensack residency after 3 years is a core part of their program, for those who want it. No way they are ditching that.

 

[chilly_md]

Tufts and RWJ’s arbitrary rankings are about the same as an FYI.

 

[hellohelloooeh]

I chose Hackensack over a more prestigious school because of the proximity to my support system and the price differences. I will say my price difference was HUGE so there is that but reading your pros/cons it feels like you'd be happier going to Hackensack. Just my two cents but even though the program is new, they are super receptive to change and there are a ton of awesome people on their staff who I have no doubt will help you be successful.

 

[throwaway123342]

Hackensack is having trouble recruiting top students. That's why they are offering big scholarships. If you look at most of the postings you will find many in your situation where they are admitted to Yale and Hackensack offers them full tuition.

Hackensack has struggled to match in some of the fields that you listed in your title. If you want pediatrics, of course you can match at hackensack. But if you want a big name academic IM program so you can go into oncology you might struggle from Hackensack. Same thing with general surgery.

Overall I'd recommend going with brown because the match is still an unproven profit from Hackensack

 

[KnightDoc]

Hackensack is having trouble recruiting top students. That's why they are offering big scholarships. If you look at most of the postings you will find many in your situation where they are admitted to Yale and Hackensack offers them full tuition.

Hackensack has struggled to match in some of the fields that you listed in your title. If you want pediatrics, of course you can match at hackensack. But if you want a big name academic IM program so you can go into oncology you might struggle from Hackensack. Same thing with general surgery.

Overall I'd recommend going with brown because the match is still an unproven profit from Hackensack

If you don't mind, I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

You're a current student, correct? If so, are you comfortable saying whether Hackensack was throwing this kind of money around in prior cycles? I remember last year they were offering full tuition scholarships to some folks AFTER they withdrew and committed elsewhere through CTE, which was flat out sleazy.

What they are doing now is very different, and appears to be effective as they are targeting highly attractive candidates to seed their class. Why wouldn't this work? No offense, but maybe Hackensack's initial matches are weak because its first few classes were weak, not because there is an inherent problem with the school.

In my observations from last cycle, while people seemed to love their story and location, it seemed like no one with another option was choosing Hackensack when it came time to pull the trigger, and they were left accepting people in May and June who had no other acceptances, or were trading up from DO. Not exactly a recipe for going head to head with Rutgers on a match list.

Hackensack clearly decided to throw some money at the issue. As the school matures and get its s#!t together, why wouldn't people being lured away from Case Western, Brown, UVA, etc. with big money scholarships not expect to match better than the first few classes who attended Hackensack mostly because they had no better option? The match list you posted in the Hackensack thread showed at least a few very good matches. How is it then unproven that one can match well from Hackensack?

 

[hellohelloooeh]

If you don't mind, I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

You're a current student, correct? If so, are you comfortable saying whether Hackensack was throwing this kind of money around in prior cycles? I remember last year they were offering full tuition scholarships to some folks AFTER they withdrew and committed elsewhere through CTE, which was flat out sleazy.

What they are doing now is very different, and appears to be effective as they are targeting highly attractive candidates to seed their class. Why wouldn't this work? No offense, but maybe Hackensack's initial matches are weak because its first few classes were weak, not because there is an inherent problem with the school.

In my observations from last cycle, while people seemed to love their story and location, it seemed like no one with another option was choosing Hackensack when it came time to pull the trigger, and they were left accepting people in May and June who had no other acceptances, or were trading up from DO. Not exactly a recipe for going head to head with Rutgers on a match list.

Hackensack clearly decided to throw some money at the issue. As the school matures and get its s#!t together, why wouldn't people being lured away from Case Western, Brown, UVA, etc. with big money scholarships not expect to match better than the first few classes who attended Hackesack mostly because they had no better option? The match list you posted in the Hackensack thread showed at least a few very good matches. How is it then unproven that one can match well from Hackensack?

Totally agree with you here. I think that offering scholarships now leads to recruitment of better candidates overall. Great use of their money imo. Will probably get them much better match lists in the future.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

The only thing to consider as @srirachamayonnaise was saying in a thread yesterday is that MD students are similar in terms of academic prowess across schools.

Thus, I’m not sure how much recruiting good students will actually change the match list. There were probably a bunch of M4 hackensack applicants this year with applications that resembled that of applications from T20 schools. I haven’t seen the match list so can’t really comment on its caliber, but if a current student is saying that one wouldn’t be able to match competitive surgical subs, I would take his/her word for it.

I couldn’t reccomend brown if it was going to be 400k+ more than hackensack but for less than 80k? It’s pretty hard to recommend over brown in this case.

 

[KnightDoc]

The only thing to consider as @srirachamayonnaise was saying in a thread yesterday is that MD students are similar in terms of academic prowess across schools.

Thus, I’m not sure how much recruiting good students will actually change the match list. There were probably a bunch of M4 hackensack applicants this year with applications that resembled that of applications from T20 schools. I haven’t seen the match list so can’t really comment on its caliber, but if a current student is saying that one wouldn’t be able to match competitive surgical subs, I would take his/her word for it.

I couldn’t reccomend brown if it was going to be 400k+ more than hackensack but for less than 80k? It’s pretty hard to recommend over brown in this case.

With all due respect, if what you and @srirachamayonnaise say is true (I do not believe it is), then what's the difference between $400K and $80K when you are comparing either of them to a probable multi million dollar lifetime difference in earnings? For $400K it's okay to be a pediatrician, but for $80K go be a surgeon?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

With all due respect, if what you and @srirachamayonnaise say is true (I do not believe it is), then what's the difference between $400K and $80K when you are comparing either of them to a probable multi million dollar lifetime difference in earnings? For $400K it's okay to be a pediatrician, but for $80K go be a surgeon?

I think it’s how much you value the extra resources. Again you can overcome odds at almost any USMD to match into nsgy for example.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Because 400k without a guarantee of matching a speciality that pays 450k plus per year ( you would definitely not get this guarantee at Brown) is basically like gambling (of course if one has family money or something then it doesn’t really matter)

80k loan at 6% for 10 years is about 900 extra a month. Something that almost any physician can afford.

400k loan at 6% for 10 years is about 4500 extra dollars per month. That amount becomes burdensome unless you’re making 450+ per year. Brown could not guarantee this.

Specialty preferences change all the time and an extra 80k would not be overly burdensome even if the OP chose peds or FM.

 

[throwaway123342]

snip

I don't know the admissions team's strategy and I don't know the differences between this cycle and previous ones.

As far as the "caliber" of the classes. I believe the average step 1 here was pretty high actually or so ive heard. I don't think there is a crazy difference between the average NJMS student and Hackensack student. I would argue bigger differences are in resources, advising, and access to resources.

I am not saying people can't match well. I am saying that you will need a much better application to match at an equivalent location from Hackensack than you would from Brown.

 

[KnightDoc]

I don't know the admissions team's strategy and I don't know the differences between this cycle and previous ones.

As far as the "caliber" of the classes. I believe the average step 1 here was pretty high actually or so ive heard. I don't think there is a crazy difference between the average NJMS student and Hackensack student. I would argue bigger differences are in resources, advising, and access to resources.

I am not saying people can't match well. I am saying that you will need a much better application to match at an equivalent location from Hackensack than you would from Brown.

So, I guess my real question is, why would a PD care that you are coming from Hackensack, and require a much better application for the same match as compared to an applicant from Brown?

I totally get that a new, unranked school will not have the prestige or resources that a T20 school has. I get why someone will need to work harder to overcome that than at a school where everything is laid out on a silver platter. At the end of the day, though, I don't get why a person with an objectively weaker application from a subjectively better school would get the nod, anywhere, over a person with a stronger application coming from a subjectively less fancy school.

Same cost, easy decision. But if someone is going to pay you $300K, after taxes, to work a little harder to overcome a resource and advising deficiency in order to achieve the same outcome, that seems like a more than fair trade-off for anyone who does not have wealthy parents to just write the check. It seems like a few talented, motivated people already figured it out.

It seems likely that people lured from Case, UVA, Brown, Yale, Hofstra, Einstein, wherever, will also be able to, and that as more of them populate the class, the match list will become progressively more impressive. If this isn't the plan, why the hell is the school committing the millions of dollars it is spending to do this? It's a private school set up to create a pipeline of physicians to work in its system. Why would it care about its match list, or just which highly talented applicants, all of whom are basically indistinguishable from each other, and from matriculants at T20s, according to @srirachamayonnaise and @voxveritatisetlucis, choose to enroll? JMHO.

 

[jomiha]

Thanks all for the very helpful dialogue on this post! Appreciate it so so much. An important and potentially game-changing caveat to add -- I am currently on the waitlist at Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, and NYU Long Island... all schools which I would choose over Brown and Hackensack. I just realized that Hackensack's CTE is much much earlier than Brown by about a month (6/1 !). This would mean I would have to remove myself from all of those waitlists by that date if I chose Hackensack, right? I feel like this kind of makes my decision easier... as I feel like my chances to get off of 1/4 waitlists are decent, but its very possible that could happen after the June 1st date. So Brown feels like a safer choice to keep my WL hopes alive as well....

 

[medschoolw1nner]

If you don't mind, I'd like to pick your brain a bit.

You're a current student, correct? If so, are you comfortable saying whether Hackensack was throwing this kind of money around in prior cycles? I remember last year they were offering full tuition scholarships to some folks AFTER they withdrew and committed elsewhere through CTE, which was flat out sleazy.

What they are doing now is very different, and appears to be effective as they are targeting highly attractive candidates to seed their class. Why wouldn't this work? No offense, but maybe Hackensack's initial matches are weak because its first few classes were weak, not because there is an inherent problem with the school.

In my observations from last cycle, while people seemed to love their story and location, it seemed like no one with another option was choosing Hackensack when it came time to pull the trigger, and they were left accepting people in May and June who had no other acceptances, or were trading up from DO. Not exactly a recipe for going head to head with Rutgers on a match list.

Hackensack clearly decided to throw some money at the issue. As the school matures and get its s#!t together, why wouldn't people being lured away from Case Western, Brown, UVA, etc. with big money scholarships not expect to match better than the first few classes who attended Hackensack mostly because they had no better option? The match list you posted in the Hackensack thread showed at least a few very good matches. How is it then unproven that one can match well from Hackensack?

Completely off topic and maybe beside the point here but wanted to pick your brain here and see if you are implying that schools care about if a student was accepted to another school and actively account for that when deciding who to take off their waitlist?

 

[309kid]

Thanks all for the very helpful dialogue on this post! Appreciate it so so much. An important and potentially game-changing caveat to add -- I am currently on the waitlist at Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, and NYU Long Island... all schools which I would choose over Brown and Hackensack. I just realized that Hackensack's CTE is much much earlier than Brown by about a month (6/1 !). This would mean I would have to remove myself from all of those waitlists by that date if I chose Hackensack, right? I feel like this kind of makes my decision easier... as I feel like my chances to get off of 1/4 waitlists are decent, but its very possible that could happen after the June 1st date. So Brown feels like a safer choice to keep my WL hopes alive as well....

Oh wow, that adds another layer of complexity to your decision. To answer your question, yes the commit to enroll deadline means that you cannot have an active application anywhere, including withdrawing from all waitlists you are on. If you want to maximize your chances to get accepted to one or more of those 4 top schools you are at the moment waitlisted at then planning to enroll at brown would make sense.

 

[KnightDoc]

Completely off topic and maybe beside the point here but wanted to pick your brain here and see if you are implying that schools care about if a student was accepted to another school and actively account for that when deciding who to take off their waitlist?

Not at all. I was implying that, while admissions are a great mystery to us, on the outside looking in, professionals running med schools, even new ones like Hackensack, know what they are doing.

Contrary to the assertion made by @srirachamayonnaise, I don't think admissions are as random as some on SDN seem to believe, and I think there is a qualitative difference between applicants admitted to Harvard, Northwestern, Hofstra, NYMC and Hackensack. Schools know who is who, and that largely accounts for the "resource protection" that explains why someone choosing between Harvard, Stanford and Penn finds themselves not receiving interviews at places like BU, Jefferson and Georgetown.

In the past, Hackensack either avoided these candidates altogether, or lost them when decision time rolled around. This year, it looks like they are offering huge merit scholarships to try to keep them.

But no, in general, I do not believe schools in May avoid people who are PTE elsewhere when choosing who to call off their WLs. That would make absolutely not sense, since many of the most attractive candidates will also be attractive to other schools, and are likely to have at least one A at the end of April.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thanks all for the very helpful dialogue on this post! Appreciate it so so much. An important and potentially game-changing caveat to add -- I am currently on the waitlist at Columbia, Cornell, Sinai, and NYU Long Island... all schools which I would choose over Brown and Hackensack. I just realized that Hackensack's CTE is much much earlier than Brown by about a month (6/1 !). This would mean I would have to remove myself from all of those waitlists by that date if I chose Hackensack, right? I feel like this kind of makes my decision easier... as I feel like my chances to get off of 1/4 waitlists are decent, but its very possible that could happen after the June 1st date. So Brown feels like a safer choice to keep my WL hopes alive as well....

Definitely something to consider, but you have to ask yourself just how much hope you are keeping alive at a T10-20 school a full month after WL movement began. I would suggest very little. Just go back to prior year threads and see just how many people report receiving calls after 6/1 at those schools, and throw that into your decision matrix.

You should absolutely do whatever feels right to you. You have not shared how important the $72K price difference is to you as compared to everything else on your list. If you are leaning towards Brown anyway, the early CTE deadline at Hackensack should be icing on the cake. Otherwise, paying $72K to keep a slim hope alive of receiving a T10-20 WL call a month after calls begin might not be the best use of you money. YMMV.

 

[medschoolw1nner]

Not at all. I was implying that, while admissions are a great mystery to us, on the outside looking in, professionals running med schools, even new ones like Hackensack, know what they are doing.

Contrary to the assertion made by @srirachamayonnaise, I don't think admissions are as random as some on SDN seem to believe, and I think there is a qualitative difference between applicants admitted to Harvard, Northwestern, Hofstra, NYMC and Hackensack. Schools know who is who, and that largely accounts for the "resource protection" that explains why someone choosing between Harvard, Stanford and Penn finds themselves not receiving interviews at places like BU, Jefferson and Georgetown.

In the past, Hackensack either avoided these candidates altogether, or lost them when decision time rolled around. This year, it looks like they are offering huge merit scholarships to try to keep them.

But no, in general, I do not believe schools in May avoid people who are PTE elsewhere when choosing who to call off their WLs. That would make absolutely not sense, since many of the most attractive candidates will also be attractive to other schools, and are likely to have at least one A at the end of April.

Yeah I mean I certainly don't think they're that random either honestly. I just was thinking that maybe schools after April 30th might see that someone who is high on their list to take off the waitlist has no acceptances and that might actually deter them from taking them and push them down their list.

Maybe though that is too much thinking and they will just take who they actually want and not look at if/who they are PTE to.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yeah I mean I certainly don't think they're that random either honestly. I just was thinking that maybe schools after April 30th might see that someone who is high on their list to take off the waitlist has no acceptances and that might actually deter them from taking them and push them down their list.

Maybe though that is too much thinking and they will just take who they actually want and not look at if/who they are PTE to.

Exactly. For the record, schools can never see where people are PTE/CTE at, only whether or not they are. It's not a reliable indicator of whether or not people actually have other As, though, because they could have recently received an A and not yet be required to make the election. They could also have an A at one of several schools that do not require a PTE election by 5/2, or at all.

Much later in the season, just before classes begin, this could be a factor, where a school might want to pick someone with no other As, but not this early! Quite frankly, by the time this would be relevant, most people with other As would have withdrawn due to CTE requirements elsewhere.

 

[jomiha]

Definitely something to consider, but you have to ask yourself just how much hope you are keeping alive at a T10-20 school a full month after WL movement began. I would suggest very little. Just go back to prior year threads and see just how many people report receiving calls after 6/1 at those schools, and throw that into your decision matrix.

You should absolutely do whatever feels right to you. You have not shared how important the $72K price difference is to you as compared to everything else on your list. If you are leaning towards Brown anyway, the early CTE deadline at Hackensack should be icing on the cake. Otherwise, paying $72K to keep a slim hope alive of receiving a T10-20 WL call a month after calls begin might not be the best use of you money. YMMV.

Hmmm I was under the impression that WL movement doesnt really start until after the 30th PTE deadline.... No one at any of those schools has reported an A off the waitlist yet

 

[KnightDoc]

Hmmm I was under the impression that WL movement doesnt really start until after the 30th PTE deadline.... No one at any of those schools has reported an A off the waitlist yet

Correct! 🙂

The issue you raised concerns the fact that you need to make a decision by Monday, and you stated that your ability to remain on WLs past 6/1 would be a factor.

My point was that if you do not see your hoped for WL movement between 5/2 and 5/31, when most of the movement will take place, particularly at top schools like the ones you are waiting for, it would be less likely that you would see movement after 6/1.

As a result, at least to me, it seems like a very expensive lottery ticket to buy (basically paying $72,000 for the chance to get called off one of four WLs after 6/1 when you weren't called off any before then), unless you are leaning toward Brown anyway.

The flaw in your logic is that while it is indeed very possible to be called off 1 of 4 WLs, that's over the course of the entire cycle. After May, your chances of getting called off any WL goes down dramatically, and that's especially true at the top schools, which tend to get settled far earlier than lower tier schools.

 

[jomiha]

Correct! 🙂

The issue you raised concerns the fact that you need to make a decision by Monday, and you stated that your ability to remain on WLs past 6/1 would be a factor.

My point was that if you do not see your hoped for WL movement between 5/2 and 5/31, when most of the movement will take place, particularly at top schools like the ones you are waiting for, it would be less likely that you would see movement after 6/1.

As a result, at least to me, it seems like a very expensive lottery ticket to buy (basically paying $72,000 for the chance to get called off one of four WLs after 6/1 when you weren't called off any before then), unless you are leaning toward Brown anyway.

The flaw in your logic is that while it is indeed very possible to be called off 1 of 4 WLs, that's over the course of the entire cycle. After May, your chances of getting called off any WL goes down dramatically, and that's especially true at the top schools, which tend to get settled far earlier than lower tier schools.

Oh yes of course gotcha

 

[CrabcakesandFootball]

Oh yes of course gotcha

If you don’t mind let us know where you choose. It will be interesting after seeing what has gone on in this thread.

 

[Banco]

So Hackensack is

1) Significantly cheaper
2) Much closer to your long-term SO (who I assume you'll want to stay with)
3) 3 years only
4) Guaranteed residency (I'm assuming in the fields you state you're interested in?)

Your pros for Brown are
1) "really cool student body" - something you have no actual idea about until you meet your class to be honest
2) "liberal arts influence" - which really doesn't mean anything



You have multiple tangible pros for Hackensack and 2 more-or-less nothing pseudo-pros for Brown. Seems like a fairly easy choice.