Half way through my third year as a psych resident

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ahmedqman

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Hello all,

I am in the third year of my psych residency, and given the current political climate (and the recent administration's actions) and my family's religion and ethnicity (though I am a US born and a citizen and my wife is a UK national on a green card, and my 15 month old daugher was born here in the U.S.), I am thinking about relocating out of the country after residency. What are some good, safe places to practice, and will accept U.S. training with a decent- good lifestyle (I worked so hard to get to this point and I don't want it to go to waste).
 
Anywhere in the EU. Although some countries will require you to have 5 or 6 years of training. Lots of ads for working in Scandinavia even when you don't know the language, and they will give you free language lessons.
Canada: you will need one year of supervision I believe
New Zealand
Australia: I think you will be required to work 10 years in an underserved area.
 
OP since you are asking a stupid question like that, I hope you are at least serious and not trying to be sly about starting another anti-Trump thread. Please keep us updated on your progress in moving to another country.
 
ahmedqman said:
Hello all,

I am in the third year of my psych residency, and given the current political climate (and the recent administration's actions) and my family's religion and ethnicity (though I am a US born and a citizen and my wife is a UK national on a green card, and my 15 month old daugher was born here in the U.S.), I am thinking about relocating out of the country after residency. What are some good, safe places to practice, and will accept U.S. training with a decent- good lifestyle (I worked so hard to get to this point and I don't want it to go to waste).
Click to expand...

Why don't you try the Soviet Socialist Republic of California? your training will be accepted, but I hear the cost of living is high.
 
michaelrack said:
Why don't you try the Soviet Socialist Republic of California? your training will be accepted, but I hear the cost of living is high.
Click to expand...

In all seriousness, California, Oregon, and Washington seem to have some great options for liberal cities. New England is not bad in that respect either. Unfortunately I have little to offer about out of country options, I would be interested in hearing other responses as well. As posted above, I think Canada requires 5 years of training (though it sounds like there is a supervision work around?). New Zealand seems to be a relatively easy transition for people who trained in the U.S.
 
ahmedqman said:
Hello all,

I am in the third year of my psych residency, and given the current political climate (and the recent administration's actions) and my family's religion and ethnicity (though I am a US born and a citizen and my wife is a UK national on a green card, and my 15 month old daugher was born here in the U.S.), I am thinking about relocating out of the country after residency. What are some good, safe places to practice, and will accept U.S. training with a decent- good lifestyle (I worked so hard to get to this point and I don't want it to go to waste).
Click to expand...

You might face more discrimination in a country where you're not a citizen than one you are. You may end up trading the pros and cons here for different pros and cons in another country. I would suggest areas in the US with higher populations of communities with your religion and ethnicity, such as California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Indiana, Michigan, and maybe Maryland. Washington and Oregon may work too but they are probably not as diverse as some of these other places, but definitely liberal
 
ahmedqman said:
Hello all,

I am in the third year of my psych residency, and given the current political climate (and the recent administration's actions) and my family's religion and ethnicity (though I am a US born and a citizen and my wife is a UK national on a green card, and my 15 month old daugher was born here in the U.S.), I am thinking about relocating out of the country after residency. What are some good, safe places to practice, and will accept U.S. training with a decent- good lifestyle (I worked so hard to get to this point and I don't want it to go to waste).
Click to expand...

If you are board certified Singapore is constantly recruiting English-speaking physicians of all kinds. It is also a genuinely nice place to live and probably 30% Muslim with a huge South Asian community as well (trying to guess religion/ethnicity from your post, apologies if I am wrong).
 
Couple of things:

1. Last week was a trying time for religious minorities as even if it didn't directly affect me, my family knew people who it directly affected. And even US Citizens who look of a religious or ethnic minority have been directly targeted by Customs and Border Patrol for harassment for years, but it's escalated over the last week or so
2. I know I say stupid things all the time (look at the Adult ADHD thread)
3. This isn't a political statement about Trump, but I had multiple colleagues utter statements of support at my program because of what happened
4. The thread was a kneejerk thread but I still think getting answers would be useful and it never hurts to learn about opportunities in other countries

Singapore has always been an interesting city to me for years. One of my colleagues was talking about New Zealand as well, but I don't know how feasible that is as a backup plan. It never hurts to have a backup plan....
 
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ahmedqman said:
Couple of things:

1. Last week was a trying time for religious minorities as even if it didn't directly affect me, my family knew people who it directly affected. And even US Citizens who look of a religious or ethnic minority have been directly targeted by Customs and Border Patrol for harassment for years, but it's escalated over the last week or so
2. I know I say stupid things all the time (look at the Adult ADHD thread)
3. This isn't a political statement about Trump, but I had multiple colleagues utter statements of support at my program because of what happened
4. The thread was a kneejerk thread but I still think getting answers would be useful and it never hurts to learn about opportunities in other countries

Singapore has always been an interesting city to me for years. One of my colleagues was talking about New Zealand as well, but I don't know how feasible that is as a backup plan. It never hurts to have a backup plan
Click to expand...

For Canada you need 5 years of total training. So 1 year fellowship on top of your 4 years of psych ACGME residency. If you don't have 1 year fellowship, you may have to do 1 year under supervision.

Each province has its own rules, so you have to contact each province regarding licensing/supervising/exams needed. For example, British Columbia recognizes USMLE Steps 1-3, so you can automatically work in Vancouver. But for Toronto/Ontario, I'm fairly sure (but not positive) that USMLEs are not recognized, and therefore you have to do the Canadian equivalent board exams (MCCQE1 and 2). Plus for anywhere in Canada you have to do FRCPsych board exam (similar to FABPN boards). But if you passed US Psych Boards, you should have no problem passing Canadian Psych Boards.

Here is a nice summary for internationals to work in Canada as a Psychiatrist:

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=1984

The money in Canada is the same or probably even more in Canada. The average salary is probably 300-350k, depending on where you work.

For the UK, I don't believe England recognizes FABPN, you would have to start from scratch I'm pretty certain. The pay is lower, around 120k pounds (180k USD), and cost of living/taxes is much higher in the UK.
 
Blitz2006 said:
For Canada you need 5 years of total training. So 1 year fellowship on top of your 4 years of psych ACGME residency. If you don't have 1 year fellowship, you may have to do 1 year under supervision.

Each province has its own rules, so you have to contact each province regarding licensing. For example, British Columbia recognizes USMLE Steps 1-3, so you can automatically work in Vancouver. But for Toronto/Ontario, I'm fairly sure (but not positive) that USMLEs are not recognized, and therefore you have to do the Canadian equivalent board exams (MCCQE1 and 2). Plus for Canada you have to do FRCPsych board exam (similar to FABPN boards).

Here is a nice summary for internationals to work in Canada as a Psychiatrist:

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=1984

The money in Canada is the same or probably even more in Canada. The average salary is probably 300-350k, depending on where you work.

For the UK, I don't believe England recognizes FABPN, you would have to start from scratch I'm pretty certain. The pay is lower, around 120k pounds (180k USD), and cost of living/taxes is much higher in the UK.
Click to expand...

Ontario sounds like a good gig. Plus, lots of halal meat there (yes we are Muslim)

Speaking of which, it seems like things have settled regarding the Executive Order and the admin is backing off a little bit... so for now I"ll be staying put here in FL (but likely move to Orlando), but you never know... the Greater Toronto Area is a great place
 
Blitz2006 said:
For the UK, I don't believe England recognizes FABPN, you would have to start from scratch I'm pretty certain. The pay is lower, around 120k pounds (180k USD), and cost of living/taxes is much higher in the UK.
Click to expand...
You need the FRCPC (not FRCPsych there is no exam for that, the MRCPsych is the UK exam, and FRCPsych is a fellowship designation based on recognition) for canada.
the UK does recognize the board exams but again you need 5 years of experience (not necessarily a fellowship working as an attending will count too) and will have to take the CASC (the cilinical exam) since the boards got rid of the oral component. Most people fail the CASC exam. The starting consultant salary in the UK is 76k (in pounds) it works out to 94908 in dollars, because the pound is so weak at the moment and then increases with years of service. you can supplement your income through private practice, disability/insurance claims reports, expert witness work etc. (this is not typically considered "forensic" work in the UK). You do have to complete lots of ridiculous paperwork to show equivalence however. One of the reasons I gave up my UK medical license and will never practice there.

I dont know what the situation in Ireland is now, but they used to be pay very well for psychiatrists back in 2004, they were paying consultants 250ooo euros. i have no idea what it is now.
 
ahmedqman said:
Ontario sounds like a good gig. Plus, lots of halal meat there (yes we are Muslim)

Speaking of which, it seems like things have settled regarding the Executive Order and the admin is backing off a little bit... so for now I"ll be staying put here in FL (but likely move to Orlando), but you never know... the Greater Toronto Area is a great place
Click to expand...

Looks like I was wrong in my previous post, my apologies.

Ontario does ACCEPT USMLEs IF you are US MD

http://www.cpso.on.ca/Policies-Publ...S-or-Canadian-Medical-Degree-or-Doct#pathway3

And it looks like you don't need a "5th year", you just have to work under supervision for 1 year before getting an unrestricted license.

But I'm assuming you are US MD....

If you are IMG then I dont think USMLEs are recognized, you need to do MCCQE

http://www.cpso.on.ca/Policies-Publ...ay-2-–-IMG-with-Canadian-Postgraduate-Trainin
 
Blitz2006 said:
If you are IMG then I dont think USMLEs are recognized, you need to do MCCQE

http://www.cpso.on.ca/Policies-Publications/Policy/Pathway-2-–-IMG-with-Canadian-Postgraduate-Trainin
Click to expand...
but if you did residency in the Us it's fine:
The Registration Committee may direct the Registrar to issue a certificate of registration to an applicant who is an IMG, if the applicant has:

  1. successfully completed a residency program accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education;
  2. been certified by a US Specialty Board;
  3. successfully completed the US Medical Licensing Examination or successfully completed an acceptable qualifying examination; and
  4. an independent or full license or certificate to practise without restrictions in the US or is eligible to apply for an independent or full license or certificate of registration to practise without restrictions in the US.
 
ahmedqman said:
Ontario sounds like a good gig. Plus, lots of halal meat there (yes we are Muslim)

Speaking of which, it seems like things have settled regarding the Executive Order and the admin is backing off a little bit... so for now I"ll be staying put here in FL (but likely move to Orlando), but you never know... the Greater Toronto Area is a great place
Click to expand...

No wonder why you're feeling unsafe. Get out of Florida and come to a (reliably) blue state. We will welcome you with open arms.
 
splik said:
You need the FRCPC (not FRCPsych there is no exam for that, the MRCPsych is the UK exam, and FRCPsych is a fellowship designation based on recognition) for canada.
the UK does recognize the board exams but again you need 5 years of experience (not necessarily a fellowship working as an attending will count too) and will have to take the CASC (the cilinical exam) since the boards got rid of the oral component. Most people fail the CASC exam. The starting consultant salary in the UK is 76k (in pounds) it works out to 94908 in dollars, because the pound is so weak at the moment and then increases with years of service. you can supplement your income through private practice, disability/insurance claims reports, expert witness work etc. (this is not typically considered "forensic" work in the UK). You do have to complete lots of ridiculous paperwork to show equivalence however. One of the reasons I gave up my UK medical license and will never practice there.

I dont know what the situation in Ireland is now, but they used to be pay very well for psychiatrists back in 2004, they were paying consultants 250ooo euros. i have no idea what it is now.
Click to expand...

Sadly the Celtic Tiger has been declawed a bit. At present by all accounts Ireland is hemorrhaging physicians.
 
clausewitz2 said:
Sadly the Celtic Tiger has been declawed a bit. At present by all accounts Ireland is hemorrhaging physicians.
Click to expand...

They're hemorrhaging more than physicians...

Last I heard the Irish economy was still so much in the ****ter that they had an online "mail order Irish husband" service...
as to why I know this....

http://www.irishcentral.com/culture...iam-neeson-among-irelands-mail-order-husbands
https://www.joe.ie/life-style/loads...be-mail-order-husbands-on-this-website/529066

I was recently burnt bad by a stateside lad with very Irish roots (and an actual Irish one while abroad), so now I'm only in the market for Scottish if I go Celtic again. Ewan McGregor's face has been the last thing I've seen for many a night recently.

I wouldn't say "declawed." The IRA is still active in Northern Ireland.
 
Um, I don't think rural Midwest is going to be more welcoming to Muslims in general, though there are certainly exceptions.

Texas isn't except for Austin and to a lesser degree San Antonio, Houston and then Dallas, in that order. The rest of Texas is an insular conservative's idea of heaven.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Um, I don't think rural Midwest is going to be more welcoming to Muslims in general, though there are certainly exceptions.

Texas isn't except for Austin and to a lesser degree San Antonio, Houston and then Dallas, in that order. The rest of Texas is an insular conservative's idea of heaven.
Click to expand...

You're mostly right, but, uh, I don't think being Muslim would be a problem in the Detroit area, given the realities of Dearborn.
 
wolfvgang22 said:
Texas isn't except for Austin and to a lesser degree San Antonio, Houston and then Dallas, in that order. The rest of Texas is an insular conservative's idea of heaven.
Click to expand...

I disagree. While Texas as a whole is conservative, all major cities are liberal within the major metro areas. The farther suburban and rural - the more conservative you get.

Houston within the loop is quite diverse and liberal.
 
TexasPhysician said:
I disagree. While Texas as a whole is conservative, all major cities are liberal within the major metro areas. The farther suburban and rural - the more conservative you get.

Houston within the loop is quite diverse and liberal.
Click to expand...

Its all relative. Houston is diverse and liberal compared to.....Lubbock or Amarillo, but ultra conservative for a person moving from SF or D.C.

Here is a nice chart of the most liberal and conservative cities in USA.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/08/daily-chart-0
 
Blitz2006 said:
Its all relative. Houston is diverse and liberal compared to.....Lubbock or Amarillo, but ultra conservative for a person moving from SF or D.C.

Here is a nice chart of the most liberal and conservative cities in USA.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/08/daily-chart-0
Click to expand...

As a minority-majority city, I think it is going to be very hard for you to paint Houston as a city that is not diverse. It is easily comparable to DC or SF in terms of demographics.

Now, obviously, more people of Asian descent in SF and more black folks in DC than you will find in Houston, but, uh, Latinx folks are kinda a relevant category of ethnic diversity.
 
clausewitz2 said:
As a minority-majority city, I think it is going to be very hard for you to paint Houston as a city that is not diverse. It is easily comparable to DC or SF in terms of demographics.

Now, obviously, more people of Asian descent in SF and more black folks in DC than you will find in Houston, but, uh, Latinx folks are kinda a relevant category of ethnic diversity.
Click to expand...
I didn't say anything about Houston's diversity compared to SF or DC. I was talking about liberalism and conservatism.

You can be diverse and still be relatively conservative.

For example, Toronto is more diverse but relatively 'conservative' compared to Vancouver.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Blitz2006 said:
I didn't say anything about Houston's diversity compared to SF or DC. I was talking about liberalism and conservatism.

You can be diverse and still be relatively conservative.

For example, Toronto is more diverse but relatively 'conservative' compared to Vancouver.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


You literally said that Houston was "diverse compared to Lubbock or Amarillo" and immediately contrasted it with DC and SF.
 
clausewitz2 said:
You literally said that Houston was "diverse compared to Lubbock or Amarillo" and immediately contrasted it with DC and SF.
Click to expand...

I agree....diversity = demographics
liberalism/conservatism = political ideology.

2 separate items no?
 
Crayola227 said:
I was recently burnt bad by a stateside lad with very Irish roots (and an actual Irish one while abroad), so now I'm only in the market for Scottish if I go Celtic again. Ewan McGregor's face has been the last thing I've seen for many a night recently..
Click to expand...
No love for Wales?
 
Shikima said:
Or OP can develop a thicker skin and pick a place which to conduct living on his own terms while not listening to others.
Click to expand...

I think it takes a little bit more than a "thick skin" to live in racially or religiously hostile environment with the spectre of being actually legally affected by administrative policies hanging over your head... Just saying...

I hope that won't derail the point of the thread though.

I heard very conflicting reports about pay in Scandinavia. Most ads go in around 5-10k euros after taxes per month, but from word of mouth of colleague, a friend in Norway got in the 300k per year. Not sure how true is this.
 
fpsychdoc said:
I think it takes a little bit more than a "thick skin" to live in racially or religiously hostile environment with the spectre of being actually legally affected by administrative policies hanging over your head... Just saying...

I hope that won't derail the point of the thread though.

I heard very conflicting reports about pay in Scandinavia. Most ads go in around 5-10k euros after taxes per month, but from word of mouth of colleague, a friend in Norway got in the 300k per year. Not sure how true is this.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, would like to know more about pay in Scandinavia.

Although I've been to Oslo....300k won't get you much in Norway!
 
fpsychdoc said:
I think it takes a little bit more than a "thick skin" to live in racially or religiously hostile environment with the spectre of being actually legally affected by administrative policies hanging over your head... Just saying...

I hope that won't derail the point of the thread though.

I heard very conflicting reports about pay in Scandinavia. Most ads go in around 5-10k euros after taxes per month, but from word of mouth of colleague, a friend in Norway got in the 300k per year. Not sure how true is this.
Click to expand...


One can conflate the issue all one wants to but it does come down to having a thicker skin. There hasn't been any direct harm to OP that has been recorded.

It's almost as good as headline stress disorder - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-definitely-not-alone/?utm_term=.875dcdfebb77
 
I've seen recruitment ads for US psychiatrists in New Zealand. Pay is supposedly low, but QoL is amazing. The Middle East (KSA, Qatar, UAE) frequently recruits US-trained psychiatrists with decent pay that is largely tax-free.
 
Mad Jack said:
I've seen recruitment ads for US psychiatrists in New Zealand. Pay is supposedly low, but QoL is amazing. The Middle East (KSA, Qatar, UAE) frequently recruits US-trained psychiatrists with decent pay that is largely tax-free.
Click to expand...

Mid east is a very good option. Excellent pay. Low taxes/Tax Free.
 
Shikima said:
Mid east is a very good option. Excellent pay. Low taxes/Tax Free.
Click to expand...

Somebody already made that "joke." For all you know this person's family is banned from visiting here in the US. As you know if you have kept up with the news the ban may or may not be lifted in 90 days. Also with how erratic this administration has been so far we don't know what's coming next, and those who could be targets should have some backup plan. Many don't want to leave, but by the original ban even those with greencards would have been excluded had they gone out of the country (for instance to help a sick relative back home). That is resolved for now, but who knows the future?

So in short we get it, these policies don't hurt you and you like to mock anyone they do hurt. Duly noted. I don't think that was the point of this thread.
 
Bartelby, I get that you are upset by recent events, but I don't believe Shikima was joking. This wasn't sarcasm, I have heard that Qatar does accept US trained psychiatrists and they do pay well. Or maybe I'm wrong and this was sarcastic, this medium is very dependent on your own perspective and how you read into things.
 
MacDonaldTriad said:
Bartelby, I get that you are upset by recent events, but I don't believe Shikima was joking. This wasn't sarcasm, I have heard that Qatar does accept US trained psychiatrists and they do pay well. Or maybe I'm wrong and this was sarcastic, this medium is very dependent on your own perspective and how you read into things.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, it's true these things don't translate well via online posts and looking at the quoted content you may well be right. If that was the intent then my apologies, honestly there probably are good places to work in the middle east and they could be worth considering. I have heard that some of the oil-rich nations pay outsized salaries for workers in other (typically engineering) fields, so there might be some openings with impressive pay and benefits in medicine as well.
 
One of my acquaintances actually followed through on his promise and peaced out to Abu Dhabi after Trump won the election. I think the pay is less but tax free and sometimes with other benefits.
 
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