Hard Time Finding Jobs!!!

[Dr. Foot]

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Hi
How is the job market for podiatry residents graduating this June??? I heared that it is hard to find jobs this year for economy reasons, is that true?

 

[PodunkUDPM]

Hi
How is the job market for podiatry residents graduating this June??? I heared that it is hard to find jobs this year for economy reasons, is that true?

Every 3rd year resident I've talked to so far has jobs lined up (and good ones too)

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Every 3rd year resident I've talked to so far has jobs lined up (and good ones too)

I heard they're all working at shoe stores.

 

[PADPM]

This post may not be popular, but it's a repeat of something I've stated in the past and it's ONLY my opinion.

Many years ago, the really well trained resident (multi-year program) was a novelty, and there were only a few DPM's in each geographic area really trained to perform RRA surgical procedures.

As a result, these docs often received referrals from other DPM's and were well known in their areas and often well known on the lecture circuit. Fortunately, many of these docs shared their knowledge and became active with residencies and trained some excellent surgeons and the theme continued.

As time passed, the "novelty" or uniqueness of the very well trained/multi-year DPM was less rare. Many older practitioners were seeking these well trained DPM's to bring their practices to the next level.

This IS still happening, and now hospitals and ortho groups are also recognizing the fact that we are well trained.

HOWEVER, as I stated in a prior post (which will be unpopular), now almost all our programs provide great training and our residents are coming out of 36 month programs. It's no longer a "novelty" or unique, therefore there does come a point where the market becomes saturated.

There will ALWAYS continue to be great offers for the cream of the crop, but as the amount of well trained grads continues to increase, the jobs will begin to fill up and the pickin' will become slimmer.

There's only a finite number of positions, and the competition will get greater. It's my opinion that salaries and positions will remain decent for the next few years and then you may see a drop off due to the simple law of supply and demand.

When there are a lot of docs looking for jobs and less jobs, the employer can call the shots.

Remember, this is ONLY my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[215353]

PADPM,

Don't you think geographic location plays a significant part in this whole job finding process? There are just some geographical areas that more saturated then others. I think its understandable that some struggle to find a place of employement in these saturated areas.

From what I have read, the east and west coast are pretty popular landing spots for new grads but the midwest is still pretty much up for the taking for those who don't care to live and work there.

You talk about "supply and demand" but again I really think we have to consider the geographical location here. When comparing the total number of total practicing podiatric physicians to just one form of specialty doctor (be it either plastics, derm, ortho, IM, etc) isn't the number of total practicing pods a lot lower? So basically we have a low amount (compared to other specialty doctors) of practicing pods that predominately practice in certain regions of the US. Is this a correct analysis?

Why is this? Is this mostly because the midwest (for example) is a less desireable place to live or is it because of the differenet scope of practice privileges btw each state? Does this difference in scope really influence where pods want to work?

 

[IVlamisil]

I agree with PADPM 110%.

Key concept is that number of positions is a finite number. Residency positions, and associate position are not ever expanding infinite numbers.

Some people on these boards think that because schools of podiatry can keep opening and add spaces, then the same applies to residencies and employment positions. This is incorrect. The only way I can see a large increase in employment is under the new obama health plan which indicates that more persons will be insured and therefore there will be more patients for foot treatment.

And I dont mean to go on a tangent here, but for those Canadian Students that think that they can get residency positions easily, forget it. with the residency shortage and the increased competition, the likelihood of accepting a non US citizen decreases everyday.

🙂

 

[dyk343]

The same thing is happening with law school graduates. More and more graduating with fewer and fewer positions to fill.

article

 

[jonwill]

I heard they're all working at shoe stores.

I'm working at Foot Locker.

 

[jonwill]

But seriously, I don't know of anyone who has had trouble.

 

[PMSIII]

I'm with Jon on this one, I haven't heard of anyone having trouble getting a job and the quoted range has always varied from 80-90K + incentives (bringing the total to 6 figures on year I) or 100K+ with incentives starting. It all depends on where you want to practice because geography plays a huge factor

 

[PADPM]

Read my post carefully. I stated that the competition will get greater and eventually there may be a saturation point. I don't believe that has happened.....yet.

I do believe that there will be a point in the not so near future that many ortho groups will have positions already filled, hospital positions will be filled, etc., and the "uniqueness" of the powerful, well trained 36+ month residency trained DPM will no longer be a novelty.

At that time the market will tighten, and as a result the salaries will begin to slip. As previously stated, it's simply a matter of supply and demand.

It hasn't happened yet, but I believe it will in a few years. But hey, it's only my opinion.

 

[PMSIII]

Read my post carefully. I stated that the competition will get greater and eventually there may be a saturation point. I don't believe that has happened.....yet.

I do believe that there will be a point in the not so near future that many ortho groups will have positions already filled, hospital positions will be filled, etc., and the "uniqueness" of the powerful, well trained 36+ month residency trained DPM will no longer be a novelty.

At that time the market will tighten, and as a result the salaries will begin to slip. As previously stated, it's simply a matter of supply and demand.

It hasn't happened yet, but I believe it will in a few years. But hey, it's only my opinion.

I see your point but I also think this is part of the evolution of the profession and specialty as a whole. The more 36+ trained DPM's we see practicing, the more likely we'll see more and more advancements in training, fellowships, and further subspecialties. Once upon a time it was a rare to see a DPM with any formal residency training. Today we have fellowships and 3 years of residencies where residents are lecturing nationwide, going to Europe for Ex-fix courses, and performing procedures that previous generations were not fortunate to observe. The saturation point is reached when the supply and demand balance can no longer be kept in harmony or "homeostasis". I feel that as long as we push for further advancements, research, publications, and higher standards in training only then we can continue to keep our niche growing and our role further cemented in health and patient care. This ultimately pushes demand for us practitioners to respond - wouldn't you agree?

 

[215353]

Read my post carefully. I stated that the competition will get greater and eventually there may be a saturation point. I don't believe that has happened.....yet.

I do believe that there will be a point in the not so near future that many ortho groups will have positions already filled, hospital positions will be filled, etc., and the "uniqueness" of the powerful, well trained 36+ month residency trained DPM will no longer be a novelty.

At that time the market will tighten, and as a result the salaries will begin to slip. As previously stated, it's simply a matter of supply and demand.

It hasn't happened yet, but I believe it will in a few years. But hey, it's only my opinion.

You've posted this point before and I followed it with a question but never got a response. Maybe there will be saturation in areas where podiatry is more popular (NJ, FL, CA, Chicago, NYC, etc) but don't you think the midwest is pretty much fair game for whoever wants to live and work there?

The total number of practicing podiatrists is a lot less when compared to other medical specialties. I just find it really hard to believe that there will be a time, in the near future, where there will be total saturation in the profession throughout the United States.

If all else fails and there are no more professional opportunities who's to stop me from just creating my own practice? Obviously it's not the best option from a financial standpoint but I think my future knowledge and training will at least make myself competitive.

 

[PADPM]

I see your point but I also think this is part of the evolution of the profession and specialty as a whole. The more 36+ trained DPM's we see practicing, the more likely we'll see more and more advancements in training, fellowships, and further subspecialties. Once upon a time it was a rare to see a DPM with any formal residency training. Today we have fellowships and 3 years of residencies where residents are lecturing nationwide, going to Europe for Ex-fix courses, and performing procedures that previous generations were not fortunate to observe. The saturation point is reached when the supply and demand balance can no longer be kept in harmony or "homeostasis". I feel that as long as we push for further advancements, research, publications, and higher standards in training only then we can continue to keep our niche growing and our role further cemented in health and patient care. This ultimately pushes demand for us practitioners to respond - wouldn't you agree?

I think my point is being missed. At the present time, there are some graduates getting amazing offers. There are orthopedic practices that have realized that they can hire a DPM with excellent training to fill an important niche in their practice. To hire a foot/ankle orthopedic surgeon, they will realistically have to start that doc with probably around $300,000. They can hire a well trained DPM at half that amount, without any compromise of patient care.

However, there are only a finite number of those positions. Additionally, surgical intervention is not always the answer for all cases and is not always that financially rewarding. With all the multi-year training, plus fellowships, are the future grads going to be able to deal with the FACT that many of their patient encounters may NOT be surgical patients or super academic/challenging cases?

Will the "simple" portion of our profession simply disappear? There will ALWAYS be need for all levels of care, yet the training is geared toward surgical training with 36 month training, etc.

My point is that not all patients are going to need surgical intervention, and either there will be a surplus of foot/ankle surgeons, a huge amountof patients seeking conservative care or a lot of disappointed doctors when they realize that they may not be ONLY foot/ankle "surgeons".

As the available positions fill, it's my feeling that salary demands will decrease.

There are simply less positions in the Midwest due to less population/less patients per square mile, etc. There is always the possibility of opening your own practice, but you must be prepared to wait for quite some time prior to making a decent income. It can be a very long wait.

So my main point is that with all the well trained docs coming into the marketplace, I believe that there may be too many DPM's seeking to perform the same service....which is surgical intervention, and many that ultimately end up being disappointed when they come to the reality that surgical intervention may only be a small percentage of what they do on a regular basis. And those practices seeking the skills of a surgical only DPM are going to become more scarce, since the well trained DPM is no longer "unique", but is actually the norm.

 

[PMSIII]

I think my point is being missed. At the present time, there are some graduates getting amazing offers. There are orthopedic practices that have realized that they can hire a DPM with excellent training to fill an important niche in their practice. To hire a foot/ankle orthopedic surgeon, they will realistically have to start that doc with probably around $300,000. They can hire a well trained DPM at half that amount, without any compromise of patient care.

However, there are only a finite number of those positions. Additionally, surgical intervention is not always the answer for all cases and is not always that financially rewarding. With all the multi-year training, plus fellowships, are the future grads going to be able to deal with the FACT that many of their patient encounters may NOT be surgical patients or super academic/challenging cases?

Will the "simple" portion of our profession simply disappear? There will ALWAYS be need for all levels of care, yet the training is geared toward surgical training with 36 month training, etc.

My point is that not all patients are going to need surgical intervention, and either there will be a surplus of foot/ankle surgeons, a huge amountof patients seeking conservative care or a lot of disappointed doctors when they realize that they may not be ONLY foot/ankle "surgeons".

As the available positions fill, it's my feeling that salary demands will decrease.

There are simply less positions in the Midwest due to less population/less patients per square mile, etc. There is always the possibility of opening your own practice, but you must be prepared to wait for quite some time prior to making a decent income. It can be a very long wait.

So my main point is that with all the well trained docs coming into the marketplace, I believe that there may be too many DPM's seeking to perform the same service....which is surgical intervention, and many that ultimately end up being disappointed when they come to the reality that surgical intervention may only be a small percentage of what they do on a regular basis. And those practices seeking the skills of a surgical only DPM are going to become more scarce, since the well trained DPM is no longer "unique", but is actually the norm.

I see your point - I guess only time will tell how this demand will shape up.

 

[janV88]

Anyone know how many Orthos graduate each year? I heard 600 but that seems so low considering there are around 500 Pods (this year) that will be starting residency and Pods take care of the foot and ankle while they take care of everything else. Or maybe there are just too many Podiatrists??

 

[PMSIII]

Anyone know how many Orthos graduate each year? I heard 600 but that seems so low considering there are around 500 Pods (this year) that will be starting residency and Pods take care of the foot and ankle while they take care of everything else. Or maybe there are just too many Podiatrists??

Definitely not enough surgically trained podiatrists...yet. PADM is referring to a possible saturation point in the future. The question pertaining to the orthos is a difficult one too because you have to keep in mind that some general orthopedic surgeons do foot and ankle surgeries - especially trauma. The number of foot and ankle fellowship trained orthopedic surgeons is smaller and the fellowship consistently goes unfilled on a yearly basis - based on their own data from the AOFAS.

 

[janV88]

PADPM,

With 500+ surgically trained Podiatrists coming out of residency in the near future and your experience with the current saturation level...when do you think we will hit the "saturation point" where demand for surgically trained podiatrists will decrease to a point where General Dentists are at right now? 10+yrs? sooner?

 

[krabmas]

Additionally, surgical intervention is not always the answer for all cases and is not always that financially rewarding. With all the multi-year training, plus fellowships, are the future grads going to be able to deal with the FACT that many of their patient encounters may NOT be surgical patients or super academic/challenging cases?

Will the "simple" portion of our profession simply disappear? There will ALWAYS be need for all levels of care, yet the training is geared toward surgical training with 36 month training, etc.

My point is that not all patients are going to need surgical intervention, and either there will be a surplus of foot/ankle surgeons, a huge amountof patients seeking conservative care or a lot of disappointed doctors when they realize that they may not be ONLY foot/ankle "surgeons".

.

I don't think you have to worry about people being disappointed about not every case being challenging or surgical.

Most people can agree that sometimes a quick and easy plantar fasciitis patient is a welcome relief.

The people that want to think and "mental masterbate" all day usually go into medicine (round all day long), or end up at a large teaching/research institution, or focus their unending attention on the business side of practice and make tons of money.

And, orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons also have conservative patients. If they did not exhaust conservative care w/ orthotics and braces they would not be able to support their $300,000 + incomes.

 

[PADPM]

I don't think you have to worry about people being disappointed about not every case being challenging or surgical.

Most people can agree that sometimes a quick and easy plantar fasciitis patient is a welcome relief.

The people that want to think and "mental masterbate" all day usually go into medicine (round all day long), or end up at a large teaching/research institution, or focus their unending attention on the business side of practice and make tons of money.

And, orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons also have conservative patients. If they did not exhaust conservative care w/ orthotics and braces they would not be able to support their $300,000 + incomes.

krabmas,

Sorry, but this is where my many, many years of experience will provide a basis for my disagreeing with your comment(s).

I know of several of my friends/colleagues that have recently hired and subsequently parted ways with their new 3 year well trained associates after a very short relationship.

The relationships did not end due to unfair salaries or any ethical problems or unfair working conditions, etc. I know and fully respect all the practices involved. Each one of the associates left because they were "miserable" with the fact that they weren't performing "enough" surgery and actually had to spend some time performing routine care, palliative care, etc., and several had quite a chip on their shoulder.

They wanted to delegate many tasks to the office staff and felt that many things done routinely in the office setting were "beneath them". Many of them simply alienated the office staff, and the staff was not used to this type of behavior considering that the doctors they were working for that owned the practice are all VERY well respected and extremely accomplished.

So I know EXACTLY what I'm speaking about. You have a lot of your peers who are in for a very rude awakening when they realize that their entire day will not be filled with surgical cases or challenging cases.

I agree with you that it's often a pleasure to have a "simple" case and have the ability to cruise through the day.

I also disagree with some of your comments regarding orthopedic surgeons. I know many orthopedic practices and several foot/ankle orthopedists and don't know of ONE that provides orthoses for their patients. Each one of these practices refers orthoses and custom braces out to a company such as Hanger Orthopedics, Allied Orthopedics or a similar organization. The ONLY orthopedic group that I know of that does their own orthoses, happens to employ a DPM.

 

[air bud]

I think the attitudes that PADPM talks about are only getting more and more common. This is what happens when you award "participation" medals to everyone. I say this half joking, but I think schools should not accept anybody below the age of 25. Graduate, go work a few years, see what the real world is like, see how you have to respect authority and work well with others.

 

[Feli]

This post may not be popular, but it's a repeat of something I've stated in the past and it's ONLY my opinion.

Many years ago, the really well trained resident (multi-year program) was a novelty, and there were only a few DPM's in each geographic area really trained to perform RRA surgical procedures.

As a result, these docs often received referrals from other DPM's and were well known in their areas and often well known on the lecture circuit. Fortunately, many of these docs shared their knowledge and became active with residencies and trained some excellent surgeons and the theme continued.

As time passed, the "novelty" or uniqueness of the very well trained/multi-year DPM was less rare. Many older practitioners were seeking these well trained DPM's to bring their practices to the next level.

This IS still happening, and now hospitals and ortho groups are also recognizing the fact that we are well trained.

HOWEVER, as I stated in a prior post (which will be unpopular), now almost all our programs provide great training and our residents are coming out of 36 month programs. It's no longer a "novelty" or unique, therefore there does come a point where the market becomes saturated.

There will ALWAYS continue to be great offers for the cream of the crop, but as the amount of well trained grads continues to increase, the jobs will begin to fill up and the pickin' will become slimmer.

There's only a finite number of positions, and the competition will get greater. It's my opinion that salaries and positions will remain decent for the next few years and then you may see a drop off due to the simple law of supply and demand.

When there are a lot of docs looking for jobs and less jobs, the employer can call the shots.

Remember, this is ONLY my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree fully.

20yrs ago, there were maybe ~75 F&A orthos and ~50 DPMs per year that were finishing training and well versed in RRA surgery... and probably another ~150 DPMs that were comfortable with forefoot surgery. There were also about 200 DPM grads per year that came out with minimal or no surgery training.

...Now, you have around 400-450 PM&S residency grads per year, but not all programs offer a lot of rearfoot, not all grads will pass ABPS boards, and most importantly, not all grads want to do surgery. Currently, I'd guess it's roughly ~50 F&A orthos and ~150 DPMs annually with legit RRA skills... but more like ~250+ other DPMs who can do forefoot surgery just fine. The important highlight is that the number of DPMs finishing training with no surgery training is almost negligible nowadays. Any way you do the math, that's roughly double the surgeons with not a whole lot more cases to go around.

The days of most surgically trained DPMs garnering many referrals from other area pods for surgical cases that those DPMs weren't trained for are all but over. You just won't see any DPMs sending out their forefoot surgery with today's training standards, and fewer and fewer will have to send out their rearfoot surgery anymore either. This is why you already see some ugly hospital and privileging politics among surgeons who want a lot of the local cases and attempt to "block" others from competing in their hospiatl/area. As PADPM accurately points out, more and more DPMs have these skills. There will always still be a few real gifted guys who get sent most of internal referrals for their pod/ortho group's complex recon... and maybe a few more regional referrals if they lecture a lot and/or offer fairly unique or high liability services (peds surgery, major deformity recon, high energy trauma, total ankles, etc).

Only a small percentage of patients who seek pod care end up needing surgery. There is a tremendous need for our skill sets overall, but we have a lot more to offer than just a betadine prep and a 15 blade. In the future, things won't really be all that much different from how they are now: most of the DPMs doing the highest volume of surgery are simply the ones who are in the practices that are seeing the most overall patients. They are the docs/groups networking the best with PCPs, gaining good reputation in their community, marketing smart, and working hard. If anyone plans of doing nothing but F&A surgery, please feel free to give all your unwanted nail/wound/fasciitis/etc patients my card. However, don't be suprised when their friends or relatives or co-workers end up in my office... and some of them having problems that end up needing surgery 😉

 

[PADPM]

Feli,

Great post. It's nice to know that someone currently in training "gets it".

Airbud,

Apparently you also "get it".

 

[PADPM]

PADPM,

With 500+ surgically trained Podiatrists coming out of residency in the near future and your experience with the current saturation level...when do you think we will hit the "saturation point" where demand for surgically trained podiatrists will decrease to a point where General Dentists are at right now? 10+yrs? sooner?

I really can't state that, nor will I state that since I don't want to create a state of panic among any of the members of this forum. I've simply stated my opinion based on significant experience and observation.

It's really a wake up call to all those going through training to have a realistic understanding that not everyone will start out with an amazingly lucrative contract, nor will everyone be spending their entire week in the O.R. Podiatry isn't all about surgery, and many of you will be exposed to some docs or groups that have surgical practices in your hospitals. However, I can assure you that those types of practices are absolutely the exception and not the rule.

You can expect to perform surgery upon graduation, but you can also expect to provide the FULL spectrum of care to be successful. As Feli stated, if you don't want to treat the ingrown nails, plantar fasciitis, sprains, or "simple stuff", feel free to send them to our practice. That's probably why we have one of the most successful practices in the country.

We did it without an "attitude", and I'm afraid that some of the grads have that lesson to learn. I've witnessed it recently, and it's not pretty when it happens.

 

[janV88]

It's really a wake up call to all those going through training to have a realistic understanding that not everyone will start out with an amazingly lucrative contract, nor will everyone be spending their entire week in the O.R. Podiatry isn't all about surgery, and many of you will be exposed to some docs or groups that have surgical practices in your hospitals. However, I can assure you that those types of practices are absolutely the exception and not the rule.

I see what your saying. Thanks for responding.

You can expect to perform surgery upon graduation, but you can also expect to provide the FULL spectrum of care to be successful. As Feli stated, if you don't want to treat the ingrown nails, plantar fasciitis, sprains, or "simple stuff", feel free to send them to our practice. That's probably why we have one of the most successful practices in the country.

Looking forward to it.