Harvard Extension - GPA damager?

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oblong

oblong

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johnnyscans said:
Personally I did really well, but I felt confident as hell going into it. Class avg was a 52%. Histogram of the grades (it was attached to the lecture 6 slides)
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As someone who plans to enroll at Harvard Extension, the above histogram really concerns me. The class average is a super-low 52% and the highest score anyone got was 71%. Is Harvard Extension a GPA damager? It seems to be at least from the above histogram and makes me re-think and re-visit the very idea of enrolling at Harvard Extension. Any suggestions, encouragements or discouraging comments?
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Have you heard of this strange grading phenomenom? - its called a curve, it magically adjusts grades appropriately

And in the future, please dont randomly select a quote without context, time, date or anything else and just post it. Its how things get misrepresented and things get distorted. You aren't by chance a journalism major, are you?

There is no such thing as a GPA damager program. You are the GPA damager (or the GPA savior)
 
robflanker said:
And in the future, please dont randomly select a quote without context, time, date or anything else and just post it. Its how things get misrepresented and things get distorted. You aren't by chance a journalism major, are you?
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I am sorry you feel I quoted something "without context, time, date or anything else". It does show the original post was by johnnyscans and as the histogram shows those are Physics E-1a Exam 1 Fall 2011 scores at Harvard Extension. What more details did you need?
 
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Link to the post?

You did quote something without context date or time. its not how i feel - its just a fact

And you are planning on judging an entire program by one test in one class and from one person? Does that seem wise?
 
oblong said:
As someone who plans to enroll at Harvard Extension, the above histogram really concerns me. The class average is a super-low 52% and the highest score anyone got was 71%. Is Harvard Extension a GPA damager? It seems to be at least from the above histogram and makes me re-think and re-visit the very idea of enrolling at Harvard Extension. Any suggestions, encouragements or discouraging comments?
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The histogram does not show percent, it shows raw scores. 52 points on the exam is the 72% average for the class. Looks like 4 people aced it. Lots of people got A's.

Also, notice the shape of the curve, which has a pretty strong right shift. This means more people get A's and B's than get C's and D's.

Please take more math before you look into prereqs.

Best of luck to you.
 
Difficulty is relative.

In my experience the physics class you're referring to is very challenging but for others it might come easy. But one thing is for sure, if you plan to take classes at harvard extension be prepared to do a lot of self-teaching outside of class. You get one three hour lecture covering a whole chapter a week and a lot of learning is done on your own.

I'm having a great experience so far, despite my sub-par performance in physics (hoping to turn it around for the next exam) I'm genuinely enjoying both physics and chemistry because they put SO much effort into everything - lecture, labs, sections, demonstrations etc. Don't decide to take classes at harvard extension and expect to take an easy dumbed down community college version of a class because it's in the extension school.

****'s legit. Be prepared to be challenged and to work hard.
 
That's right, 72% was the class average for this exam, but unfortunately (or fortunately) it is not curved to "magically adjust the grades", as aren't the rest of the HES HCP classes.

You decide whether it's worthwhile for you. But just like probably any other program, with some effort and hard work, it is not entirely impossible to find yourself on the right side of that distribution graph. (Something to keep in mind, physics is one of the toughest courses at HCP and this was the very first midterm, so 72% average isn't that bad. )
 
Sciengee said:
That's right, 72% was the class average for this exam, but unfortunately (or fortunately) it is not curved to "magically adjust the grades", as aren't the rest of the HES HCP classes.

You decide whether it's worthwhile for you. But just like probably any other program, with some effort and hard work, it is not entirely impossible to find yourself on the right side of that distribution graph. (Something to keep in mind, physics is one of the toughest courses at HCP and this was the very first midterm, so 72% average isn't that bad. )
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The OP said the avg was 52% - not 72%; so that would indicate more than 50% of the class failed the whole class. So, I would have to assume there was some kind of curve. It took DrMidlife to figure it out that a 52/?? on the exam was a 72% for an average

And see OP, this is the problem with taking a quote of context. No-one is really sure what the hell is going on
 
Also, the lowest midterm grade is dropped in this class.
 
robflanker said:
The OP said the avg was 52% - not 72%; so that would indicate more than 50% of the class failed the whole class. So, I would have to assume there was some kind of curve. It took DrMidlife to figure it out that a 52/?? on the exam was a 72% for an average

And see OP, this is the problem with taking a quote of context. No-one is really sure what the hell is going on
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Well, the graph is right there, so instead of getting all aggressive at the OP you could've just looked at it. It's not really out of context at all as all the info you need is on it.
But that's beside the point.

To answer the OP question - it's really up to you. If you don't study, it'll damage your GPA, yes, but in that case any class in any other program would. If you put an effort into it, you'll be fine. Like smiley said, the classes are tough, but really fun, so you just have to make it work.
 
Sciengee said:
That's right, 72% was the class average for this exam, but unfortunately (or fortunately) it is not curved to "magically adjust the grades", as aren't the rest of the HES HCP classes.

You decide whether it's worthwhile for you. But just like probably any other program, with some effort and hard work, it is not entirely impossible to find yourself on the right side of that distribution graph. (Something to keep in mind, physics is one of the toughest courses at HCP and this was the very first midterm, so 72% average isn't that bad. )
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Anderson's Bios E-1a (and probably E-1b as well) is curved. Average of first exam was a 72, so if you got a 72, then you have a B. IIRC, the standard deviation was 12 points, so an 84 would give you an A. Gen Chem and OChem are not curved, though in OChem you can get an A- with an 85. Don't know about physics, but the above graph suggests the difficulty of the course right on target.

Also, my experience is that the exams in these courses are not impossible. They're challenging and require critical thinking, but they are far from impossible or unfair. As was mentioned earlier, it's not the course or the prof who is a GPA damager, only you can damage your GPA. There are plenty of resources available to get the extra help you need (tutoring, office hours, etc.).
 
Also worth noting is that midterms in the class have historically been out of 72 points, so a high of 71 means that person(s) lost 1 point.
 
72% is the median...man you should be fking really happy.

All my 4th year courses, median is high 50s - mid 60s. Nothing is curved either. I would kill to go into a class where the average is 72.
 
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Sciengee said:
Well, the graph is right there, so instead of getting all aggressive at the OP you could've just looked at it. It's not really out of context at all as all the info you need is on it.
But that's beside the point.
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Graph is where? There is no graph on my screen, nor link to it.
 
I can see the graph in a quote in the 1st post. Are you on your phone or whatnot?

Note to others: the quoted post is a static unedited copy of johnnyscans' original, which has since been corrected. johnnyscans misread the graph, and then oblong quoted the misreading without reviewing the graph.

C'mon folks, let's be doctors here: if the data is right in front of you, pause to reflect and consider the claim.

Best of luck to you.
 
DrMidlife said:
I can see the graph in a quote in the 1st post. Are you on your phone or whatnot?
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No, i'm on my computer - weird. Then I apologise for any reference to not including the graph. The out-of-context bit is still appropriate tho

DrMidlife said:
Note to others: the quoted post is a static unedited copy of johnnyscans' original, which has since been corrected. johnnyscans misread the graph, and then oblong quoted the misreading without reviewing the graph.

C'mon folks, let's be doctors here: if the data is right in front of you, pause to reflect and consider the claim.
Click to expand...
+1
 
I can't wait until the OP cracks open my chest and then decides it's too hard to fix
 
It would help if Harvard Extension provided the % of their students who get into US medical schools. Not just sponsored candidates but the % from the entire pool. Maybe someone who meets personally with Dr. Fixsen can ask him this?
 
oblong said:
It would help if Harvard Extension provided the % of their students who get into US medical schools. Not just sponsored candidates but the % from the entire pool. Maybe someone who meets personally with Dr. Fixsen can ask him this?
Click to expand...
No way to track it unless students self report back to the school

And that would help you with your math problem from the beginning of this thread?
 
robflanker said:
Have you heard of this strange grading phenomenom? - its called a curve, it magically adjusts grades appropriately

And in the future, please dont randomly select a quote without context, time, date or anything else and just post it. Its how things get misrepresented and things get distorted. You aren't by chance a journalism major, are you?

There is no such thing as a GPA damager program. You are the GPA damager (or the GPA savior)
Click to expand...

Looks like you are already a medical student. Unless you are Dr. Fixsen or some lower-level admin at Harvard responsible for enrollment, you're taking this way too personally.
 
oblong said:
Looks like you are already a medical student. Unless you are Dr. Fixsen or some lower-level admin at Harvard responsible for enrollment, you're taking this way too personally.
Click to expand...
Not personally - just continue to be amazed by some of the posts this place gets; and how quickly things get distorted
 
robflanker said:
No way to track it unless students self report back to the school
Click to expand...

How do schools like Bryn Mawr and many, many others track acceptances? I suppose if the % was flattering HES would have taken pains to track and report it. Because this % is not available, would it be correct to infer that the % is not flattering?

Sorry I am asking all these tough questions. Many people swoon over the very mention of Harvard. I am not one of those and I want to assess what HES is really worth.
 
BM is much smaller and much more formalized than HES - lot easier to keep track of students.

i wouldn't infer anything from #s put out by any program, they all tweak and twist and distory the actual numbers of acceptance.

UPenn SSP claims 80% acceptance into medical school - which I don't believe (as a grad of the program), nor do they tell you MD, DO, Foreign or not.

You aren't asking tough questions - you are asking Qs we don't really have answers to. HES has a good history of getting people into medical school - a lot get in, and report there success here. Is it a perfect scientific method? No

I also don't think anyone is swooning over the mention of HES. Anyone would does their HW knows that UGrad name of school means nothing in the world of post-bacs/SMPs
 
robflanker said:
HES has a good history of getting people into medical school - a lot get in, and report there success here. Is it a perfect scientific method? No
Click to expand...

I have yet to see ANY evidence of HES having a good history of getting people into medical school. Self-reported success on this forum is not evidence.

I am actively considering HES myself. What dissuades me is the allow-a-lot-of-people-in but then Wolfgang-Rueckner-will-make-them-drop-out policy that apparently seems to be in place at HES. In other words, it seems to be EXTREMELY difficult to do well at HES. Which is fine but in the end I hear most people are saddled with a damaged transcript that permanently ruins their chances of getting into any medical school. Is this perception true or false?

The second feedback I have received is that HES students have strong MCAT scores because of their excellent preparation at HES but their Science-GPAs are disproportionately on the lower side because of tough grading at HES. When they don't get into medical schools it is not because of their MCATs but because of the poor GPAs they received at Harvard Extension.

The third feedback I have received is that many students who do get into medical schools after HES have to settle for DO or Caribbean because of their damaged transcripts. Is this correct or incorrect?
 
oblong said:
I have yet to see ANY evidence of HES having a good history of getting people into medical school. Self-reported success on this forum is not evidence.

I am actively considering HES myself. What dissuades me is the allow-a-lot-of-people-in but then Wolfgang-Rueckner-will-make-them-drop-out policy that apparently seems to be in place at HES. In other words, it seems to be EXTREMELY difficult to do well at HES. Which is fine but in the end I hear most people are saddled with a damaged transcript that permanently ruins their chances of getting into any medical school. Is this perception true or false?

The second feedback I have received is that HES students have strong MCAT scores because of their excellent preparation at HES but their Science-GPAs are disproportionately on the lower side because of tough grading at HES. When they don't get into medical schools it is not because of their MCATs but because of the poor GPAs they received at Harvard Extension.

The third feedback I have received is that many students who do get into medical schools after HES have to settle for DO or Caribbean because of their damaged transcripts. Is this correct or incorrect?
Click to expand...

Do some reading of the HES thread....please....

bbnf4B.jpg


Good luck to you - I'm done in this thread; its going nowhere
 
oblong said:
I have yet to see ANY evidence of HES having a good history of getting people into medical school. Self-reported success on this forum is not evidence.
Click to expand...

This does not mean that it does not exist.

oblong said:
I am actively considering HES myself. What dissuades me is the allow-a-lot-of-people-in but then Wolfgang-Rueckner-will-make-them-drop-out policy that apparently seems to be in place at HES. In other words, it seems to be EXTREMELY difficult to do well at HES. Which is fine but in the end I hear most people are saddled with a damaged transcript that permanently ruins their chances of getting into any medical school. Is this perception true or false?
Click to expand...

FALSE. From personal experience, it is definitely not extremely difficult to do well at HES. Depending on the classes you take, of course it will come with some difficulty, but what do you expect to find when/if you get into medical school, re-learning your ABCs? Yes, Rueckner's class IMO is probably one of the most difficult at the HES--mainly because you have to teach yourself out of the book--but that does not mean that all who take courses are doomed to fail. A lot of people did well in the course, but you do need to put in some effort. Furthermore, if you want to believe these horror stories then you must also believe the good stories. For instance, the dreaded o-chem is taught so incredibly well at HES that you have all the tools necessary to get a great grade in it. So don't be frightened by people who freaked out over Physics, you are not them...


oblong said:
The second feedback I have received is that HES students have strong MCAT scores because of their excellent preparation at HES but their Science-GPAs are disproportionately on the lower side because of tough grading at HES. When they don't get into medical schools it is not because of their MCATs but because of the poor GPAs they received at Harvard Extension.
Click to expand...

Again, FALSE. What the heck kind of assumption is that? You are saying that all who went to HES and did well on the MCAT had bad sGPAs? And that they didn't get in because of just their GPAs from HES? Seriously? It is true that these courses will prep you well for the MCAT, but the latter is false. If you suck the big one at your courses, clearly you don't know the material well and how would you be able to perform well on the MCAT... Relax with that statement.

oblong said:
The third feedback I have received is that many students who do get into medical schools after HES have to settle for DO or Caribbean because of their damaged transcripts. Is this correct or incorrect?
Click to expand...

You just said that you couldn't find any good information about students going to medical school after HES. How can you now say that many students go to DO or Caribbean? Yes, maybe many students have gone to DO or Caribbean, but MANY students have probably gone off to allo as well (perhaps SMP prior).

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you can't base everything on advise you picked up from a few select individuals, which it seems like you have. I went to HES while working full-time, shadowing, and volunteering, and managed a 3.8 over 8 courses--including physics and organic chem. Plus I did well on my MCAT. Therefore, take my advise when I say that it can be done. HES is a great place to take post-bacc courses with great professors. You just need to be confident in yourself in put in the effort!
 
NJD519 said:
This does not mean that it does not exist.



FALSE. From personal experience, it is definitely not extremely difficult to do well at HES. Depending on the classes you take, of course it will come with some difficulty, but what do you expect to find when/if you get into medical school, re-learning your ABCs? Yes, Rueckner's class IMO is probably one of the most difficult at the HES--mainly because you have to teach yourself out of the book--but that does not mean that all who take courses are doomed to fail. A lot of people did well in the course, but you do need to put in some effort. Furthermore, if you want to believe these horror stories then you must also believe the good stories. For instance, the dreaded o-chem is taught so incredibly well at HES that you have all the tools necessary to get a great grade in it. So don't be frightened by people who freaked out over Physics, you are not them...




Again, FALSE. What the heck kind of assumption is that? You are saying that all who went to HES and did well on the MCAT had bad sGPAs? And that they didn't get in because of just their GPAs from HES? Seriously? It is true that these courses will prep you well for the MCAT, but the latter is false. If you suck the big one at your courses, clearly you don't know the material well and how would you be able to perform well on the MCAT... Relax with that statement.



You just said that you couldn't find any good information about students going to medical school after HES. How can you now say that many students go to DO or Caribbean? Yes, maybe many students have gone to DO or Caribbean, but MANY students have probably gone off to allo as well (perhaps SMP prior).

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you can't base everything on advise you picked up from a few select individuals, which it seems like you have. I went to HES while working full-time, shadowing, and volunteering, and managed a 3.8 over 8 courses--including physics and organic chem. Plus I did well on my MCAT. Therefore, take my advise when I say that it can be done. HES is a great place to take post-bacc courses with great professors. You just need to be confident in yourself in put in the effort!
Click to expand...

Awesome! Thank you. That's what I wanted to hear. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, I'll see you at HES, if you're going to be around.
 
Good, I wish you the best...
 
This isn't really evidence and I can't give you stats, but I should point out that your concerns do not reflect my experience at Harvard Extension/HCP.

Rueckner's class is hard. Lots of people do drop out. Anyone can take the course, so you will undoubtedly have a large number of people who aren't prepared to study and really learn the material. I remember getting my first exam back and getting really depressed. I forget the grade, but it was very low. But I continued to study. I did the homework. I attended lecture. I went to the Help Room. And ended up with an "A" in both Fall and Spring semesters. I then did the same with all the other pre-med classes at Harvard Extension, finishing HCP with a 4.0 GPA. Many of my classmates did very well in the course and pretty much everyone loved the Chemistry classes (but these can be tough too).

So, yes, the numbers look scary. But if you are prepared to do the work, you can make it through. You have to be honest with yourself though. If you weren't a solid performer in undergrad for one reason or another, unless you've done something to change your habits, these courses will be tough and can hurt your GPA. This isn't unique to Harvard Extension.

As for your comment about HES students "settling for DO or Caribbean schools because of their damaged transcripts," I really have to question your source. I know of HES graduates in allopathic med schools. My friend from HES interviewed at some Ivy dental schools recently. I was just accepted to three U.S. allopathic med schools last week.
 
I mean, it's all relative. HES is definitely probably harder to get a 4.0 in than BM, Scripps, or the like. None of the classes at Scripps were curved but I would guess more people than not got all As in the post-bac. It just is what it is, the entire school doesn't have curved grading and has a pretty high average GPA. That doesn't change the fact that the workload is pretty heavy, though.
 
Damn, my typo in that screengrab is immortalized. Average was a 72% out of 100, which was a raw score of 52. Reuckner also drops the lowest of two midterms, and adjusts the weighting for the the midterm (the better one) and the final as to provide the best boost to your grade. His class has amazing demonstrations and there are a ton of resources available to you - help room, discussion section, discussion board on the website, email, etc. That said, the class is difficult, but definitely doable if you aren't expecting the material to be hand fed to you. I like to use the MCAT Physics Book (Biehle) to help reinforce concepts are we are learning things way above the MCAT level - I feel extremely confident that if you succeed in this class you will be ready for anything Physics related the MCAT may throw your way.

Another benefit of the program that people often overlook - location. Boston is arguably the center of medicine in the United States. Look at the schools and hospitals in the area - Harvard, MIT, Mass Gen, B&W, Children's Hospital, etc. There are an insane number of volunteer and extracurricular activities (even more so when you consider that classes are in the evening). Take that, plus the almost impossible to beat price, and you've got a pretty killer program.

I remember reading somewhere that something like 85% of sponsored HES students were admitted into medical school. The program is not easy. I study my ass off for Biology and Physics, but my grades reflect my hard work. Professors are accessible, and Dr. Fixsen is awesome - I'm happy I have him on my side.
 
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HES is a perfect example of why a B or C in their classes should be considered as an A or B from other schools.
 
DisabledDoctor said:
HES is a perfect example of why a B or C in their classes should be considered as an A or B from other schools.
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1) No one gave us any illusion that it would be easy. Dr. Fixsen himself will flat out tell you that it isn't easy.

2) HES OChem syllabus: http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic943171.files/ChemE2a-syllabus-2011.pdf

UMass Dartmouth Ochem syllabus: http://www.umassd.edu/cas/chemistry/facultyampstaff/catherineneto/syllabusfall06/

From my own experience taking physics during undergrad at UMass-Amherst and looking at the syllabus for Physics at HES (also open to the public), the topics covered are virtually the same. Gen Chem at HES covers a little more than what I got at UMass, but I didn't take the same Gen Chem class as the Chem and Chem Engineering majors. From what I can tell, we cover the same topics at about the same pace and with maybe a little more detail.

A B at HES is a B anywhere else; a C at HES is C anywhere else; etc etc etc.

If a C at HES really were equivalent to an A at some other school, then what does it say about the quality of the coursework at that school? How does lack of rigorous coursework prepare you for coursework that is even more rigorous in medical school? What does it say about a student who would rather coast through the courses than actually put in the effort required to prepare themselves for what's ahead?

It doesn't get easier, so it makes no sense to shoot yourself in the foot by taking easier coursework, and really, any school that's actually worth a damn will have challenging coursework. Forget about easy. Easy is the domain of undergrad. We're all (as in all nontrads) presumably past that and hopefully have accepted with no illusion that we have to go through some challenging prereqs and the MCAT to get to where we want to be, even if it does sometimes feel like pulling teeth, drawing blood from a stone, and turning lead into gold all at once.
 
I'm with Medwonk and Midlife on this - a C is a C regardless of where you go (except at CC, then a C is an F)

You are going to be def in the minority on this one DisabledDoctor
 
robflanker said:
I'm with Medwonk and Midlife on this - a C is a C regardless of where you go (except at CC, then a C is an F)

You are going to be def in the minority on this one DisabledDoctor
Click to expand...

I'm fine with being in the minority. I'm disabled. I'm always in the minority.
 
This is a perfect example why students are required to take pre-requisite courses. In part, to weave out certain people.
 
As long as anyone maintains that there is a difference between a university A and a community college A, then it is only logical to assume there is a difference between the grades that different universities give out. Universities and community colleges are all accredited by the same regional accreditation bodies so there is no objective measure of their academic difference.
 
Don't feed DisabledDoctor guys....

If you look at his previous posts/threads, he/she does their best to be obstinate whenever possible.
 
DisabledDoctor said:
As long as anyone maintains that there is a difference between a university A and a community college A, then it is only logical to assume there is a difference between the grades that different universities give out.
Click to expand...
That's not logic.
DisabledDoctor said:
Universities and community colleges are all accredited by the same regional accreditation bodies so there is no objective measure of their academic difference.
Click to expand...
What in the world is your point?
 
Did anyone here attend/is attending HES for postbac?
 
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