harvard NP/MSTP confusion

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Picklesali

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I'm confused
--- To be considered for the MSTP at Harvard, did you need to apply for the HST? I thought it seemed kind of redundant (to be in the MD/PhD program and HST) - and since I wasn't interested in HST alone, I applied to NP - but I thought I had selected MD/PhD....

Anyhoo, today I got an NP invite - but I haven't heard anything about MSTP (no rejection) -- so was I not even considered for it, or are they still thinking about it? Was I a complete ***** on the application?
 
Okay - I just looked back at their website and it does say that the MD/PhD portion has to be completed with either NP and/or HST questions - so it seems like it is possible to just apply NP and MSTP.

However, for those of you who got MD-only invites at Harvard, did you receive a rejection letter for the MSTP and if so did it come before or after MD-only invite and via email/snail mail?

THANKS!
 
Well, looking through the other threads, I think it's prob an MSTP rejection, but I think I'll call tomorrow just to verify. Now I just need to find their phone number.

Group question: if you have an MSTP acceptance, would you go to an MD-only interview...even if it is Harvard?




For me, I think I'll go to the interview - you know, just for kicks... But I don't think I would take the MD-only acceptance over the MSTP. The chance for second cycle admission there seems so low....
 
Well, looking through the other threads, I think it's prob an MSTP rejection, but I think I'll call tomorrow just to verify. Now I just need to find their phone number.

Group question: if you have an MSTP acceptance, would you go to an MD-only interview...even if it is Harvard?




For me, I think I'll go to the interview - you know, just for kicks... But I don't think I would take the MD-only acceptance over the MSTP. The chance for second cycle admission there seems so low....


There's actually a whole thread about this that reappears every year come March/April. Some MSTP applicants have matriculated MD-only at HMS, paid for the MD, and taken time off from medical school to pursue the PhD.

It's actually a pretty sizable portion of their MD/PhD program. By my calculations, an amazing 50% of the students in their MD/PhD program go this route. They say their program is 155; they matriculate 10 MSTPs every year with an average graduation rate of 9 years; and whenever an MD-only student joins a PhD program they are then included in the tally of 150 students. So you have to figure of those 65 non-MSTP students in the PhD or M3/M4 years, there are about 20ish other non-MSTP students in M1/M2 who, unlike the MSTP students, are not counted until they start the PhD.

Anyways, I know that people go this route and turn down fully funded offers from incredible schools. Anecdotally, I just recently heard of somebody turning down a funded offer at Hopkins, and I personally know two people who turned down offers from UCSF/Stanford/WashU, to go non-MSTP MD/PhD at HMS. So you are certainly not alone in interviewing at HMS for this reason, and you would even be in sizable company if you decided to matriculate MD-only.

If you find the other thread you will see that the board has debated ad nauseum about whether this is a reasonable course of action. The consensus, as I remember it, has been that it is idiotic.

FWIW, I personally think that the issue is a bit more nuanced than that. I have to agree that if somebody has a fully funded offer at an awesome school then it is hare-brained to pay for HMS. But I have to disagree with the assertion that if an applicant has a fully funded offer at any MD/PhD program, it is hare-brained to pay for HMS. Of course, if your family won't help you out, it's just not financially advisable to pay for the MD, especially if you actually want to be an academic physician-scientist. But if yours is a family of means such that you will carry no debt, I think it could be a more difficult decision. Just in the course of talking to faculty at my undergrad and interviewing at a few schools, I have perceived vastly different resources at various highly ranked medical schools, especially with regards to patient population and clinical training (to the point that a couple of my interviewers have actually advised going to other medical schools instead of their own). If money is not an object, why not obtain the best training possible? (I know the P.C. on this board are going to lambaste me for having the temerity to claim that some medical schools are better than others, but so be it.) With that said, most people don't have the financial independence, nor are many granted MD-only admission to Harvard but not funded MSTP to another excellent school, so it's a moot point for all but the few who are well-off-with-a-good-MD-but-not-MSTP profile. Anecdotally, I think the majority of the people who actually choose to pay for HMS were accepted to another highly perceived MSTP, and are deranged.
 
I have a similar question: for those of you who got the HST and MD/PhD interview invites, have you heard from New Pathway yet?
 
When I was interviewing for med schools, I got an MSTP interview at Harvard. Looking back, I honestly do not think I had any chance at all of getting in there, and I should not have wasted my time (and money) flying out to Boston. There was a certain appeal of going there for the interview, but if I had it to do over again I wouldn't have. It was very much a let down as far as overall experience - there was no tour of the campus and I slept on a 1st year med student's dorm room (!) floor on one of the pool lounge floatie things. It probably didn't help that I only had 1 day in Boston - perhaps if I had had a little more time to explore the city, I might have had a better impression of my stay. I had 6 MSTP interviews in the span of 5 weeks during the start of spring semester of my senior year, and I was stressed to the max. As a result, I don't think I interviewed as well as I could have at most of the interviews and I certainly didn't do as well in school or enjoy my last semester of undergrad as much as I could have. In retrospect, I wish I had narrowed down my interviews to the likely candidates (for me, Mayo, MCW, UW, and possibly University of Chicago or Northwestern) and forgotten about the high rollers where I didn't really stand a chance (namely Duke and Harvard).

Anyway, I hope that didn't come off as anti-Harvard - I'm not, I just don't think it's worth going to the interview for the "experience." If it were me I would not go for the MD-only interview especially if I had other funded MD/PhD prospects. I certainly wouldn't go if I weren't seriously considering going there - that seems like a huge waste of time and lots of unnecessary stress just to be able to say you interviewed at Harvard.
 
I have a similar question: for those of you who got the HST and MD/PhD interview invites, have you heard from New Pathway yet?

No - you have to contact them yourself....solitude and i both sent the NP office emails basically saying we had MSTP and HST interviews...about an hour later or whatever they sent me an email inviting me to interview - what's lame is that the NP interview is on a Monday and MSTP/HST are on Tuesday

but yeah, email them
 
Good point, Wannabe. I called my father today to tell him that I got the interview, but that it was MD-only and that I wasn't sure I would go.

Dad - "What?!"
Me - "Well, I don't think I would go to Harvard MD-only over an MD/PhD program."
Dad - "Wait, what's the difference?"
Me - "Are you serious??"

Granted, my parents haven't really played any role in my application process, but I've been giving them frequent updates. You'd think the guy would at least know what an MD/PhD program was by now... For him, all he thinks is "ooooh, harvard.....pretty!"
 
No - you have to contact them yourself....solitude and i both sent the NP office emails basically saying we had MSTP and HST interviews...about an hour later or whatever they sent me an email inviting me to interview - what's lame is that the NP interview is on a Monday and MSTP/HST are on Tuesday

but yeah, email them


So wait, has anyone received an NP/MSTP interview combo? (No HST)
 
HST and MSTP didn't come together....first I got an MSTP invite, then an HST invite (although I could've contacted them myself), then I emailed NP and they responded with an invite...does that help?
 
No - you have to contact them yourself....solitude and i both sent the NP office emails basically saying we had MSTP and HST interviews...about an hour later or whatever they sent me an email inviting me to interview - what's lame is that the NP interview is on a Monday and MSTP/HST are on Tuesday

but yeah, email them

I called the HST office saying I had an MSTP interview, and they sent me an email with an HST invite. Then, I called the NP office, telling them I had MSTP and HST invites, and got the NP invite not long afterward. And yeah, Monday's pretty light - just 1 NP interview - whereas Tuesday has 2 MSTP and 2 HST interviews. Hope this helps.

Also, Pickles, in answer to your original question, it's not necessary to apply to HST to get into the MSTP program, although anywhere from 66% to 100% of each entering MSTP class chooses HST, depending on the year. I think it depends on what kind of experience you want to have - whether you want the full-on, intense, physician-scientist training experience (which HST would be conducive to) or whether you have other non-scientific interests as well (NP would allow you more time to pursue those). I've heard current HMS students and grads having quite strong views one way or another. At least one current student I know believes HST is the way to go for MSTP because the curriculum is more rigorous (and lecture-based), like grad school, really, and teaches you to think like a scientist, whereas NP is more PBL-based and teaches you to think like a clinician. Another person I know feels that you get enough of the physician-scientist training in the PhD part, and HST might be overkill for some people who like to be more well-rounded. You'd also get to meet a larger proportion of your MD-only classmates through NP. HST classes are held separately, along with engineering grad students, I believe (and possibly business school students as well, although I'm not entirely sure about this). Ultimately, you could argue either way, so it all boils down to personal preference, I suppose.
 
...At least one current student I know believes HST is the way to go for MSTP because the curriculum is more rigorous (and lecture-based), like grad school, really, and teaches you to think like a scientist, whereas NP is more PBL-based and teaches you to think like a clinician. Another person I know feels that you get enough of the physician-scientist training in the PhD part, and HST might be overkill for some people who like to be more well-rounded...

This was what I was thinking when I applied.
 
Well, I called them. They said that they haven't decided my MSTP fate...yet.
 
hang in there, i'm in the same boat sort of. i have an HST interview but i'm only going to go if it's for the MSTP too.
 
hang in there, i'm in the same boat sort of. i have an HST interview but i'm only going to go if it's for the MSTP too.


Yeah - so did you schedule your HST interview? I don't think I'll get the MSTP interview, but just in case, I don't really want to go there twice.
 
no, i'm not going to go if i'm not invited for MSTP so i need to wait for that. i live too far away to pay for an md-only plane ticket! did you? i just got an np invite too though so i'm optimistic.
 
aaand i just got my MSTP rejection. ah well. i don't have illusions about actually getting into the mstp there so just as well to save the money.
 
just letting you guys know, the three offices (np, hst, mstp) are all completely separate here... so don't expect to get ANY information from them together. even acceptances will come piecemeal. lol.
 
Anyways, I know that people go this route and turn down fully funded offers from incredible schools. Anecdotally, I just recently heard of somebody turning down a funded offer at Hopkins, and I personally know two people who turned down offers from UCSF/Stanford/WashU, to go non-MSTP MD/PhD at HMS.

Just a word of warning: I personally know of two people who have turned down funded MD/PhD offers from HMS to attend other schools, each of them for personal reasons, so I wouldn't take too much stock in these anecdotes. People certainly aren't throwing themselves at Harvard at the expense of all the other great schools in the country, even if the research opportunities there are unparalleled. But the point is taken; an unfunded MD/PhD at Harvard would certainly not be out of the norm.

And I hate to re-start a discussion thats been beaten to death, but I would always follow the money. Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, WashU, etc. there may be a difference in terms of location and your research interest, but the difference is not worth $150,000.

PS And as a Hopkins man I appreciate you mentioning us separately from that "UCSF/Stanford/WashU" riff-raff. :laugh:
 
Just a word of warning: I personally know of two people who have turned down funded MD/PhD offers from HMS to attend other schools, each of them for personal reasons, so I wouldn't take too much stock in these anecdotes.

You beat me to this but it bears repeating. Harvard is not the end-all be-all of MD or MD/PhD programs. I know several people who turned down MD/PhD at Harvard, one of them very well, and in that case it was not for location/personal reasons. The MD/PhD and graduate program in his interest made bad impressions on him for a number of reasons and he chose another school instead. He feels that the school he chose is stronger in his area of research interest and is comparable, if not stronger, for training in his residency choice.

I know others who have turned them down for medical school to go to medical school elsewhere (yes, this was due to finances).
 
I certainly agree with you and Neuronix that there are very legitimate reasons for not attending HMS, even if fully funded. Strangely, the general perception among MSTP applicants seems to be that rejecting HMS is anathema, as evidenced by our acquaintances turning down the Hopkins (and UCSF/WashU/Stanford, 🙂) funded spot for the privilege of paying for the HMS MD. I really have no idea why HMS evokes such singular reverential awe from applicants, and I'm glad you and Neuronix brought up some anecdotes of your own 🙂.



Just a word of warning: I personally know of two people who have turned down funded MD/PhD offers from HMS to attend other schools, each of them for personal reasons, so I wouldn't take too much stock in these anecdotes. People certainly aren't throwing themselves at Harvard at the expense of all the other great schools in the country, even if the research opportunities there are unparalleled. But the point is taken; an unfunded MD/PhD at Harvard would certainly not be out of the norm.

And I hate to re-start a discussion thats been beaten to death, but I would always follow the money. Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, WashU, etc. there may be a difference in terms of location and your research interest, but the difference is not worth $150,000.

PS And as a Hopkins man I appreciate you mentioning us separately from that "UCSF/Stanford/WashU" riff-raff. :laugh:
 
Well today was the end of my HMS dilemma. I received the MSTP rejection last week and today I canceled my NP interview.

I kind of wish I could do it with a "In you face, Harvard!" feeling (and I guess I sort of did, as I was talking to my friend about the Harvard-president-women-are-inferior-in-science debacle just prior to sending the email) but I couldn't help feel a little of twinge of regret later.

Seriously, what is it about HMS that draws us like flies to honey?

Today's mantra: Follow the money....follow the money...follow the money...
 
Well today was the end of my HMS dilemma. I received the MSTP rejection last week and today I canceled my NP interview.

I kind of wish I could do it with a "In you face, Harvard!" feeling (and I guess I sort of did, as I was talking to my friend about the Harvard-president-women-are-inferior-in-science debacle just prior to sending the email) but I couldn't help feel a little of twinge of regret later.

Seriously, what is it about HMS that draws us like flies to honey?

Today's mantra: Follow the money....follow the money...follow the money...

It's because for our whole lives we've been raised to believe that we should aim for perfection, perfection in all areas is ideal and that Harvard is as close to perfect as you can get in this educational system - these are gross over-exaggerations, over-simplifications, and at times just plain wrong - but it doesn't make it hurt any less...

so yeah
 
So as you can see from above, I withdrew my HMS dilemma on 11/26. TODAY I received an email confirming my withdraw. A little backed up, eh?
 
So as you can see from above, I withdrew my HMS dilemma on 11/26. TODAY I received an email confirming my withdraw. A little backed up, eh?

Harvard runs on Harvard time haha...
 
Hey,
Actually I've been killing myself trying to rank my prospective schools and figure out where I should put Harvard MD-only.

It seems like there is a cutoff as to what kind of funded MD/PhD you should turn down for an unfunded harvard MD/PhD... it's just not clear where that line is.

Well... it seems like while I was interviewing there, they mentioned that they usually fund the last two years of medical school for these late-entry MD/PhD slots, but not everyone gets it...

Yeah, it's definitely not a good idea to turn down Hopkins MSTP for an unfunded harvard MD/PhD position... but where would you guys draw the line?
 
but where would you guys draw the line?

In my opinion there is no line to be drawn. MD/PhD is MD/PhD. MD is MD. So what if the Harvard affiliates have more funding and more investigators overall when pooled together. Do you really think that Harvard name is going to carry you places on its own? Do you really think you won't find great investigators to work with wherever you go?

I don't want to hear that "What if it's Harvard MD vs. Drexel MD/PhD" or something like that. If you're good enough to get into Harvard MD-only and you've got decent research experience you're good enough to get into an MSTP. Again, there is no line to be drawn. If you want to be an MD/PhD, go with the sure thing.
 
I don't want to hear that "What if it's Harvard MD vs. Drexel MD/PhD" or something like that. If you're good enough to get into Harvard MD-only and you've got decent research experience you're good enough to get into an MSTP. Again, there is no line to be drawn. If you want to be an MD/PhD, go with the sure thing.

Hi, thanks for the advice. It's good to get some perspective...
 
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