What is going on with the NYU MSTP?

[MDPhDseeker23]

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Hello All!
I am a current applicant for the 2024-2025 cycle and sent in my application to NYU at the beginning of August and it has been radio silence since. However, I saw on another website that NYU is pausing its MSTP for this cycle and all of the acceptances have been moved to MD only. I was curious as to what is going on and whether I should fully give up hope in being an MSTP student at NYU. Thank you and have a wonderful day!

 

[Neuronix]

Big oof

It's hard for me to imagine why they would cancel admissions this cycle unless they don't have enough money to continue running the program.

 

[thr1932359]

Absolutely ridiculous situation to put accepted applicants in

 

[LizzyM]

Absolutely ridiculous situation to put accepted applicants in

Has NYU admitted any MSTP applicants this cycle? I would assume not.

 

[Neuronix]

Has NYU admitted any MSTP applicants this cycle? I would assume not.

According to the Reddit thread, NYU rescinded the acceptances of several MSTP applicants. The letter on Reddit states that those students will still have MD acceptances.

 

[LizzyM]

According to the Reddit thread, NYU rescinded the acceptances of several MSTP applicants. The letter on Reddit states that those students will still have MD acceptances.

Thanks for the follow-up. Clearly, it is early enough in the cycle for those applicants, who I would expect to be stellar, will have other choices if they prefer MSTP over a free ride MD at NYU. I don't believe that this is a ridiculous situation @thr1932359 given the timing.

 

[ankaraMessi]

Thanks for the follow-up. Clearly, it is early enough in the cycle for those applicants, who I would expect to be stellar, will have other choices if they prefer MSTP over a free ride MD at NYU. I don't believe that this is a ridiculous situation @thr1932359 given the timing.

I respectfully disagree. Some students accepted earlier in the cycle withdrew interview invites to programs that are now done interviewing. I worry that this is going to set a precedent where withdrawal courtesy is going to disappear for future years.

 

[Neuronix]

We tell applicants not to hold onto acceptances. After this I would always recommend holding on to at least two if you have them.

While I hope nobody will be hurt by this, it's a serious and embarrassing screw up to let it get this far. I can only wonder how this happened.

 

[MDPhDseeker23]

I respectfully disagree. Some students accepted earlier in the cycle withdrew interview invites to programs that are now done interviewing. I worry that this is going to set a precedent where withdrawal courtesy is going to disappear for future years.

I also respectfully disagree because there are so many (in the student's view) uncontrollable variables that make up the cycle. An acceptance is supposed to represent a sigh of relief, especially for an institution like NYU. There is so much uncertainty and now we have to worry about acceptances no longer being certain. I hope the accepted students will be alright and not be discouraged by this event.

 

[ranmasaotome]

This is really unacceptable in my view. Applicants have every right to trust the commitments programs make to them. If they were not absolutely certain they could offer these spots, they should not have accepted the students in the first place. Applicants are told to withdraw acceptances and decline interviews for traffic reasons; they have every right to expect programs to hold to their end of the bargain.

 

[LizzyM]

I guess I am more cavalier as I see one of the bonuses of MSTP to be the free tuition for both MD and PhD. With NYU, you're not being shunted into a tuition-based MD and you can do the PhD separately, usually at no cost. It is highly unusual to make offers (so early!--late November according to their website) and then pull them.

 

[lazilyncalmly]

I guess I am more cavalier as I see one of the bonuses of MSTP to be the free tuition for both MD and PhD. With NYU, you're not being shunted into a tuition-based MD and you can do the PhD separately, usually at no cost. It is highly unusual to make offers (so early!--late November according to their website) and then pull them.

I thought that the point of a physician scientist training program is to be given a system where you are trained in a synergistic manner, where you have support from a program solely dedicated to your pursuit of the double degree. I don’t think “just doing the PhD separately” suffices. Plus, why choose NYU when they have such little respect to their applicants? Who says they won’t give us other surprises beyond this?

 

[ranmasaotome]

I guess I am more cavalier as I see one of the bonuses of MSTP to be the free tuition for both MD and PhD. With NYU, you're not being shunted into a tuition-based MD and you can do the PhD separately, usually at no cost. It is highly unusual to make offers (so early!--late November according to their website) and then pull them.

Putting aside the issue of the MSTP being a unified training program (which is very important for matching to PSTPs), there's hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference between a tuition free med school and MSTPs that also have a stipend, insurance, etc.

 

[Yirureg]

I respectfully disagree. Some students accepted earlier in the cycle withdrew interview invites to programs that are now done interviewing. I worry that this is going to set a precedent where withdrawal courtesy is going to disappear for future years.

I was about to cancel interviews and acceptances after getting into a different T10, but now I am kinda scared to do so. I can't imagine I'm alone here; the curtesy might die this year

 

[LizzyM]

Putting aside the issue of the MSTP being a unified training program (which is very important for matching to PSTPs), there's hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference between a tuition free med school and MSTPs that also have a stipend, insurance, etc.

okay, I see your point although I don't quite buy the "unified training program" based on what I see on the inside (not at NYU but at 3 other top schools in my career).

 

[Neuronix]

okay, I see your point although I don't quite buy the "unified training program" based on what I see on the inside (not at NYU but at 3 other top schools in my career).

We do our best to integrate the two. The goal of the MSTP is to be more than the sum of its parts.

 

[lazilyncalmly]

okay, I see your point although I don't quite buy the "unified training program" based on what I see on the inside (not at NYU but at 3 other top schools in my career).

So because 3 schools are doing a poor job, we shouldn’t expect other MST programs to use their funding to deliver on the promises they made?

 

[Buhgsy]

I was about to cancel interviews and acceptances after getting into a different T10, but now I am kinda scared to do so. I can't imagine I'm alone here; the curtesy might die this year

I totally get why people are hesitant to release acceptances after the NYU situation but instead of holding onto offers for longer than necessary, why not reach out to programs directly to ask about their funding stability and any potential restructuring?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like most schools should be more than willing to clarify their program’s situation, especially if they’re aware of the unease NYU’s decision has caused. Wouldn't this give you the peace of mind you need to confidently make a choice without delaying opportunities for other applicants who are still on the sidelines anxiously awaiting? (Conflict of Interest: I am one of those on the sideline, lol).

 

[catloverrr]

I totally get why people are hesitant to release acceptances after the NYU situation but instead of holding onto offers for longer than necessary, why not reach out to programs directly to ask about their funding stability and any potential restructuring?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like most schools should be more than willing to clarify their program’s situation, especially if they’re aware of the unease NYU’s decision has caused. Wouldn't this give you the peace of mind you need to confidently make a choice without delaying opportunities for other applicants who are still on the sidelines anxiously awaiting? (Conflict of Interest: I am one of those on the sideline, lol).

I agree with you 100%. I understand the unease in this situation and how it may be wiser to hold a few acceptances. But, I'm equally frustrated with how NYU's decision to do something like this will inevitably cause the whole system to clog up even more than it already does. I'm already seeing people on Reddit talking about holding all acceptances and interviews even after getting into top choices. I feel as though holding more than 3/4 As is unnecessary, even after this NYU decision, because there is realistically no way one would want to attend more than a few programs. Hoping this doesn't set a precedent for other programs to do the same, because then it'll allow for even more disrespect towards applicants in this already very stressful process.

 

[mdphd_applicant]

This situation is so insane. I am an MSTP student at another program, and I'm hearing about the NYU decision from so many colleagues. The situation must be REALLY bad inside the program to justify this.

 

[ranmasaotome]

This situation is so insane. I am an MSTP student at another program, and I'm hearing about the NYU decision from so many colleagues. The situation must be REALLY bad inside the program to justify this.

The general attitude in our program at my non-NYU school is shock. This is unheard of.

 

[Spidey2002]

I agree with you 100%. I understand the unease in this situation and how it may be wiser to hold a few acceptances. But, I'm equally frustrated with how NYU's decision to do something like this will inevitably cause the whole system to clog up even more than it already does. I'm already seeing people on Reddit talking about holding all acceptances and interviews even after getting into top choices. I feel as though holding more than 3/4 As is unnecessary, even after this NYU decision, because there is realistically no way one would want to attend more than a few programs. Hoping this doesn't set a precedent for other programs to do the same, because then it'll allow for even more disrespect towards applicants in this already very stressful process.

Well said and, as someone currently sitting on an MSTP waitlist without any As, I can't help but be concerned about people being extra stingy with acceptances up until the very last minute. But at the same time I completely understand when a prestigious program like NYU does something so shocking and unprofessional towards their prospective students, particularly when they themselves preach about professional courtesy towards other applicants during their interviews. This process is not only stressful but time-intensive, expensive, and even dehumanizing at times . . . the last thing we need is for events like this to flat out encourage toxicity amongst and towards applicants (thus further perpetuating the very worst cultural aspects of this training path).

 

[Fencer]

I do not know the specifics of this situation. However, let's examine the circumstances... 2024-25 is Y5 of their T32 MSTP with 25 training slots (data from NIGMS TWD dashboard) with almost $1.5 million annual NIH funding (1.4984, NIH Reporter). All of the NIGMS T32 MSTP awards are for 5 years. Their recent MS-1 class sizes were 13 for 2024, 8 for 2023, 13 for 2022 matriculation (see their website and AAMC Fact tables). Most T32 MSTP awards support early trainees (MS1, MS2, GS1, etc). How would you cover an unexpected (from the SOM Dean perspective) budgetary loss of this amount? Pausing admissions for one year is one approach.... that would reduce at least the projected budget deficit in half. If they pause admissions for 2 years, that would cover it for the long run, but the SOM Dean still needs to come up with about $ 750K for the program of unexpected income loss for 2025-26. This is a draconian decision, and it will hurt them in recruitment and reputation, and potentially in their T32 re-submission. At least, current students (hopefully) will not get hurt.

 

[mdphd_applicant]

I do not know the specifics of this situation. However, let's examine the circumstances... 2024-25 is Y5 of their T32 MSTP with 25 training slots (data from NIGMS TWD dashboard) with almost $1.5 million annual NIH funding (1.4984, NIH Reporter). All of the NIGMS T32 MSTP awards are for 5 years. Their recent MS-1 class sizes were 13 for 2024, 8 for 2023, 13 for 2022 matriculation (see their website and AAMC Fact tables). Most T32 MSTP awards support early trainees (MS1, MS2, GS1, etc). How would you cover an unexpected (from the SOM Dean perspective) budgetary loss of this amount? Pausing admissions for one year is one approach.... that would reduce at least the projected budget deficit in half. If they pause admissions for 2 years, that would cover it for the long run, but the SOM Dean still needs to come up with about $ 750K for the program of unexpected income loss for 2025-26. This is a draconian decision, and it will hurt them in recruitment and reputation, and potentially in their T32 re-submission. At least, current students (hopefully) will not get hurt.

Donations and/or internal school funds. NYU is basically destroying their reputation by pausing admissions and withdrawing acceptances. It makes me believe it's not just a T32 issue. They must have issues with internal support for the program from the Dean's office (which IIRC has to provide most funds for the program anyways).

 

[ranmasaotome]

I do not know the specifics of this situation. However, let's examine the circumstances... 2024-25 is Y5 of their T32 MSTP with 25 training slots (data from NIGMS TWD dashboard) with almost $1.5 million annual NIH funding (1.4984, NIH Reporter). All of the NIGMS T32 MSTP awards are for 5 years. Their recent MS-1 class sizes were 13 for 2024, 8 for 2023, 13 for 2022 matriculation (see their website and AAMC Fact tables). Most T32 MSTP awards support early trainees (MS1, MS2, GS1, etc). How would you cover an unexpected (from the SOM Dean perspective) budgetary loss of this amount? Pausing admissions for one year is one approach.... that would reduce at least the projected budget deficit in half. If they pause admissions for 2 years, that would cover it for the long run, but the SOM Dean still needs to come up with about $ 750K for the program of unexpected income loss for 2025-26. This is a draconian decision, and it will hurt them in recruitment and reputation, and potentially in their T32 re-submission. At least, current students (hopefully) will not get hurt.

What surprises me is more that a program would continue their practice of accepting people starting in October if they knew there was even a shadow of a risk of this happening.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I do not know the specifics of this situation. However, let's examine the circumstances... 2024-25 is Y5 of their T32 MSTP with 25 training slots (data from NIGMS TWD dashboard) with almost $1.5 million annual NIH funding (1.4984, NIH Reporter). All of the NIGMS T32 MSTP awards are for 5 years. Their recent MS-1 class sizes were 13 for 2024, 8 for 2023, 13 for 2022 matriculation (see their website and AAMC Fact tables). Most T32 MSTP awards support early trainees (MS1, MS2, GS1, etc). How would you cover an unexpected (from the SOM Dean perspective) budgetary loss of this amount? Pausing admissions for one year is one approach.... that would reduce at least the projected budget deficit in half. If they pause admissions for 2 years, that would cover it for the long run, but the SOM Dean still needs to come up with about $ 750K for the program of unexpected income loss for 2025-26. This is a draconian decision, and it will hurt them in recruitment and reputation, and potentially in their T32 re-submission. At least, current students (hopefully) will not get hurt.

I want to make sure I'm interpreting this. They overenrolled their slots over the last three years?? (+9 has to be carried for 2 more years?) How many were matriculants in 2021 and 2020, as that also adjusts?

This also presumes that none of their matriculants decided to drop to MD-only which would free up those spots. For admissions, we often will consider taking extra students to anticipate loss of tuition due to leaves of absence or remediation as part of our enrollment management plan. If there was a different outcome, then uh oh... . Maybe take on +1 or +2 over five years if you predict correctly...

Inquiring minds want to know: when the admins are done restructuring, will the surviving MSTP would-be first-years in 2025 be given first chance to be converted to MSTP?

 

[LizzyM]

I was accepted to the MSTP program on October 24th and just had my acceptance withdrawn with no warning or explanation on January 2nd. The majority of my interviews were scheduled after this acceptance. If NYU was my top choice, I would have withdrawn from all of them and I’m sure some accepted applicants may have done so. These were extremely early offers that were rescinded. What makes it even worse is that NYU made a huge point at our interview day of telling us to withdraw early as a courtesy to other applicants. Your point about applicants having other choices doesn’t apply to someone who withdrew their remaining interviews/acceptances in October as a courtesy to other programs and applicants. As far as the MD-only option, since when does tuition free = “free ride”? There is a huge financial difference losing the stipend and insurance provided by the MSTP, along with what others have said about the integration and support provided by a unified MD-PhD program. I am honestly shocked that anyone could think that this isn’t a big deal.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I stand corrected. NYU was extremely irresponsible and should be ashamed.

 

[Yirureg]

I totally get why people are hesitant to release acceptances after the NYU situation but instead of holding onto offers for longer than necessary, why not reach out to programs directly to ask about their funding stability and any potential restructuring?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like most schools should be more than willing to clarify their program’s situation, especially if they’re aware of the unease NYU’s decision has caused. Wouldn't this give you the peace of mind you need to confidently make a choice without delaying opportunities for other applicants who are still on the sidelines anxiously awaiting? (Conflict of Interest: I am one of those on the sideline, lol).

Is it likely that PDs will all be honest about their internal turmoil to a random acceptee? I will be asking these questions, but I will still not know for sure if my program is fully safe. Given these circumstances, I think the courtesy has shifted to rescinding interviews and acceptances after receiving 2-3 acceptances you are happy with. I will probably do this.

 

[Buhgsy]

Is it likely that PDs will all be honest about their internal turmoil to a random acceptee? I will be asking these questions, but I will still not know for sure if my program is fully safe. Given these circumstances, I think the courtesy has shifted to rescinding interviews and acceptances after receiving 2-3 acceptances you are happy with. I will probably do this.

I guess take it with a grain of salt because I am an applicant applying this cycle, but I think someone in the reddit thread (Username MundyyyT) put it best in response to the first question, so I will just copy and paste their response. "I'm almost certain every MSTP director in the country knows about what is happening at NYU. The reason this situation has blown up is specifically because it's so rare, if such a thing has even happened before. It's also likely these MSTP directors know more than any of us on Reddit and can give you definite information on what this means for your situation. To this end, I don't think a program worth its salt will hold it against you for asking."

Now again, coming at it from an applicant point of view, I feel like it would be weird to ask about it in a normal year but given the circumstances, imo asking about it in response to this whole situation would show more on the program to not let ACCEPTEES know this... Applicants/Interviewees, heck no... again though... I am only an applicant, so maybe @Fencer or someone else may have more information on their opinion with this.

In terms of holding onto interviews/acceptances until after 2-3 acceptances - I thought this was the norm. I feel like there is not a problem with holding onto 2-3 acceptances until the traffic deadlines because second look days are essential-- this is at the bare minimum, a 7+ year commitment were talking here.

 

[ophthoaspirant]

I do not know the specifics of this situation. However, let's examine the circumstances... 2024-25 is Y5 of their T32 MSTP with 25 training slots (data from NIGMS TWD dashboard) with almost $1.5 million annual NIH funding (1.4984, NIH Reporter). All of the NIGMS T32 MSTP awards are for 5 years. Their recent MS-1 class sizes were 13 for 2024, 8 for 2023, 13 for 2022 matriculation (see their website and AAMC Fact tables). Most T32 MSTP awards support early trainees (MS1, MS2, GS1, etc). How would you cover an unexpected (from the SOM Dean perspective) budgetary loss of this amount? Pausing admissions for one year is one approach.... that would reduce at least the projected budget deficit in half. If they pause admissions for 2 years, that would cover it for the long run, but the SOM Dean still needs to come up with about $ 750K for the program of unexpected income loss for 2025-26. This is a draconian decision, and it will hurt them in recruitment and reputation, and potentially in their T32 re-submission. At least, current students (hopefully) will not get hurt.

I don't know if this is factual but I heard that when the NYU SOM started offering free tuition for MD in 2018, they attracted higher stat applicants and the % of disadvantaged students admitted dropped substantially in the next couple of years and their diversity profile took a hit. When this happened, they went the extra mile to increase the % of disadvantaged students by offering them financial aid to cover even their living expenses. Even some of the admitted regular high stat students could not afford living expenses of $40K a year in NYC and they offered financial aid to cover those expenses. All this extra financial aid is not covered by the Langone and Gottesman donations and the SOM suffered budgetary losses that added up over the years.

 

[wysdoc]

I don't know if this is factual but I heard that when the NYU SOM started offering free tuition for MD in 2018, they attracted higher stat applicants and the % of disadvantaged students admitted dropped substantially in the next couple of years and their diversity profile took a hit. When this happened, they went the extra mile to increase the % of disadvantaged students by offering them financial aid to cover even their living expenses. Even some of the admitted regular high stat students could not afford living expenses of $40K a year in NYC and they offered financial aid to cover those expenses. All this extra financial aid is not covered by the Langone and Gottesman donations and the SOM suffered budgetary losses that added up over the years.

The bolded statement makes no sense. Using a loan for $40,000 for a medical school where they pay no tuition is available, and would still make their costs less than attending other med schools in high cost of living cities.

 

[ophthoaspirant]

The bolded statement makes no sense. Using a loan for $40,000 for a medical school where they pay no tuition is available, and would still make their costs less than attending other med schools in high cost of living cities.

First of all, if living expenses $40k per year, the total loan amount will be at least 4x $40k and even higher if they have to take research gap year(s).

They can get a full tuition scholarship from several other good programs that are in much lower cost locations where the living expenses are half that of NYC. If you have to choose between $80k of debt vs $160k of debt for similar post graduation outcomes, the decision is fairly easy.

 

[Doormat21]

This situation is so insane. I am an MSTP student at another program, and I'm hearing about the NYU decision from so many colleagues. The situation must be REALLY bad inside the program to justify this.

The buzz at NYU MSTP from the students in that program is that DBS, the DOS has decided to end the MSTP program. It was announced yesterday that there will be no MSTP admissions for a few years moving forward. Interpretation ? The School is going to let the cohorts of enrolled MSTP students finish and then there will no MSTP program moving forward. No one was consulted, not the faculty, not the MD PhD students. Yet, in 2024, the School went through the motions of interviewing and accepting a class beginning in Summer 2025. That is , until they RESCINDED the acceptances. The MSTP students were also told that the PhD program was also going to be "revised." The school basically wants everyone to take the same classes and the program would just be 3 years. The PhD mentors (faculty) were not informed off this oddly enough. Basically, NYU SOM has decided to offer a "PhD" that will not hold much value ANYWHERE. The rest of the academic world and even employers will be skeptical of the NYU PhD diploma mill. Pick a program that doesn't rescind acceptances and respects their current students and their faculty.

 

[Sitting Pretty]

First of all, if living expenses $40k per year, the total loan amount will be at least 4x $40k and even higher if they have to take research gap year(s).

They can get a full tuition scholarship from several other good programs that are in much lower cost locations where the living expenses are half that of NYC. If you have to choose between $80k of debt vs $160k of debt for similar post graduation outcomes, the decision is fairly easy.

NYU is <$20000 for fees and (subsidized) apartment this 2024-25 year, FYI

 

[ankaraMessi]

The buzz at NYU MSTP from the students in that program is that DBS, the DOS has decided to end the MSTP program. It was announced yesterday that there will be no MSTP admissions for a few years moving forward. Interpretation ? The School is going to let the cohorts of enrolled MSTP students finish and then there will no MSTP program moving forward. No one was consulted, not the faculty, not the MD PhD students. Yet, in 2024, the School went through the motions of interviewing and accepting a class beginning in Summer 2025. That is , until they RESCINDED the acceptances. The MSTP students were also told that the PhD program was also going to be "revised." The school basically wants everyone to take the same classes and the program would just be 3 years. The PhD mentors (faculty) were not informed off this oddly enough. Basically, NYU SOM has decided to offer a "PhD" that will not hold much value ANYWHERE. The rest of the academic world and even employers will be skeptical of the NYU PhD diploma mill. Pick a program that doesn't rescind acceptances and respects their current students and their faculty.

What is DBS and DOS? The dean of students?
It seems incredibly insane that someone at the school made this decision without consulting any of the faculty/students that would be affected by this.

 

[Doormat21]

What is DBS and DOS? The dean of students?
It seems incredibly insane that someone at the school made this decision without consulting any of the faculty/students that would be affected by this.

Use your brain. These are initials or acronyms ..... this isnt rocket science. The MD PHD students are scared ****less. They say if they complain, the NYU SOM will make sure they dont get their residency of choice. Thats right - PUNISH their graduating MDs.

 

[mdphd_applicant]

The buzz at NYU MSTP from the students in that program is that DBS, the DOS has decided to end the MSTP program. It was announced yesterday that there will be no MSTP admissions for a few years moving forward. Interpretation ? The School is going to let the cohorts of enrolled MSTP students finish and then there will no MSTP program moving forward. No one was consulted, not the faculty, not the MD PhD students. Yet, in 2024, the School went through the motions of interviewing and accepting a class beginning in Summer 2025. That is , until they RESCINDED the acceptances. The MSTP students were also told that the PhD program was also going to be "revised." The school basically wants everyone to take the same classes and the program would just be 3 years. The PhD mentors (faculty) were not informed off this oddly enough. Basically, NYU SOM has decided to offer a "PhD" that will not hold much value ANYWHERE. The rest of the academic world and even employers will be skeptical of the NYU PhD diploma mill. Pick a program that doesn't rescind acceptances and respects their current students and their faculty.

Interesting. They already offer a 3 year MD in long island. Seems like the school is trying to massively shorten clinical/research education. This would mean that they are aiming for a 6-7 year MD-PhD.

 

[Doormat21]

Interesting. They already offer a 3 year MD in long island. Seems like the school is trying to massively shorten clinical/research education. This would mean that they are aiming for a 6-7 year MD-PhD.

The MD PhD program as an integrated degree program is officially dead. All enrolled students will finish the program and after that there will be no more. The buzz yesterday is that DBS, commander in chief of everything in Science at NYU SOM, had a sitdown with all the Chairs of the
Science programs ( biochemistry, cell biology ) to inform them of future changes in degree programs ( it is not just the MD PhD program that is impacted) . I heard that there was uniform outrage and disagreement but she didnt give a flying F. These decisions have to be about money somehow - they are destroying the current academic environment and the future reputation of the school. One student even told me that the
MD students are afraid to protest these decisions because the medical school will blacklist them and it will impact their competitiveness in getting into good residency programs.

 

[Doormat21]

Hello All!
I am a current applicant for the 2024-2025 cycle and sent in my application to NYU at the beginning of August and it has been radio silence since. However, I saw on another website that NYU is pausing its MSTP for this cycle and all of the acceptances have been moved to MD only. I was curious as to what is going on and whether I should fully give up hope in being an MSTP student at NYU. Thank you and have a wonderful day

The program will no longer be active. It is really shocking that they cancelled it after offering a few slots for the class beginning in 2025 (summer).

 

[johnr42700]

The MD PhD program as an integrated degree program is officially dead. All enrolled students will finish the program and after that there will be no more. The buzz yesterday is that DBS, commander in chief of everything in Science at NYU SOM, had a sitdown with all the Chairs of the
Science programs ( biochemistry, cell biology ) to inform them of future changes in degree programs ( it is not just the MD PhD program that is impacted) . I heard that there was uniform outrage and disagreement but she didnt give a flying F. These decisions have to be about money somehow - they are destroying the current academic environment and the future reputation of the school. One student even told me that the
MD students are afraid to protest these decisions because the medical school will blacklist them and it will impact their competitiveness in getting into good residency programs.

This seems wild, if true. I heard that there's been financial troubles since 2018 when the school went tuition free, since the admin didn't have enough resources in the endowment to support it long-term (they apparently had to raise $600 million, but only got to $450m with their donation). I don't know if they ever made up the deficit, but last year, they mandated the entire MD class to finish in 3 years, potentially to cut costs.

NYU Grossman in Manhattan is a 3 year MD program now (as are several others in the US--including Duke and Harvard). The 4th year at NYU can be used for a research year, or to earn another degree, like MBA or MPH.

I haven't heard of the 3 year tracks for Duke/Harvard, but the standard tracks are 4 years for both programs. They don't make everyone complete their graduation requirements in 3 years like NYU does, regardless.

 

[near_airport]

The MD PhD program as an integrated degree program is officially dead. All enrolled students will finish the program and after that there will be no more. The buzz yesterday is that DBS, commander in chief of everything in Science at NYU SOM, had a sitdown with all the Chairs of the
Science programs ( biochemistry, cell biology ) to inform them of future changes in degree programs ( it is not just the MD PhD program that is impacted) . I heard that there was uniform outrage and disagreement but she didnt give a flying F. These decisions have to be about money somehow - they are destroying the current academic environment and the future reputation of the school. One student even told me that the
MD students are afraid to protest these decisions because the medical school will blacklist them and it will impact their competitiveness in getting into good residency programs.

Question for admin and PDs, what, if anything, can trainees do to head off this type of scenario? While the admin at my program seem to be committed to our physician scientist predoctoral and residency training initiatives, I understand that a lot can happen in 8-10 years and that nothing is guaranteed.

Should there be a push to get programs and trainees more involved with their representatives in both state and national legislature to increase the likelihood of continued support? I'm specifically reminded of the impact that former NIH director Harold Varmus had in securing bipartisan support for expanding NIH funding.

Likewise, I believe that physician scientists at all levels should at the very least be open to pursuing the same approach of education and advocacy with their elected representatives, not only in the context of support for NIGMS funding, but also for broader funding appropriations, perhaps through DoD and ARPA-H initiatives.

In the end, I do remain hopeful for the possibility of separate funding in the case of NIH cuts, especially given the recent re-approval of the childhood cancer STAR act. However, I fear that without direct and coordinated action on the part of physician scientists, MD-PhD programs, and trainees, NIGMS funding may become an easy target for cuts...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The MD PhD program as an integrated degree program is officially dead. All enrolled students will finish the program and after that there will be no more. The buzz yesterday is that DBS, commander in chief of everything in Science at NYU SOM, had a sitdown with all the Chairs of the
Science programs ( biochemistry, cell biology ) to inform them of future changes in degree programs ( it is not just the MD PhD program that is impacted) . I heard that there was uniform outrage and disagreement but she didnt give a flying F. These decisions have to be about money somehow - they are destroying the current academic environment and the future reputation of the school. One student even told me that the MD students are afraid to protest these decisions because the medical school will blacklist them and it will impact their competitiveness in getting into good residency programs.

I just want to remind everyone the Dean can't just unilaterally execute this without the "consent" of the President and the Board. That is to say, if there is red ink, the Board is telling the Dean to restructure.

Yes, I would be afraid to protest about it now. See all the crackdowns from the Gaza conflict and the steps taken at most universities as a result. See the end of Act I of Wicked (end of the movie part 1). Strange price to pay for free tuition; and I don't think it will affect their admissions desirability.

How Freshman Year Mistakes Keep You Out of Med School | SDN

Freshman year mistakes and bad choices can limit your future options for a health professional career - learn how to avoid common missteps.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[johnr42700]

I just want to remind everyone the Dean can't just unilaterally execute this without the "consent" of the President and the Board. That is to say, if there is red ink, the Board is telling the Dean to restructure.

Yes, I would be afraid to protest about it now. See all the crackdowns from the Gaza conflict and the steps taken at most universities as a result. See the end of Act I of Wicked (end of the movie part 1). Strange price to pay for free tuition; and I don't think it will affect their admissions desirability.

How Freshman Year Mistakes Keep You Out of Med School | SDN

Freshman year mistakes and bad choices can limit your future options for a health professional career - learn how to avoid common missteps.

www.studentdoctor.net

I disagree. Not only does this remove any MSTP applicants from the pool, but it also erodes trust in the application process for NYU, and the stability of the NYU admin. It also speaks volumes of the admin's commitment to their students, faculty, and transparency, particularly if the scenario posed by that commenter is true.

Who's to say they won't rescind acceptances for the MD or PhD only programs next cycle? Who's to say they won't remove their tuition waivers halfway through the year, and make current students reimburse them? Would you take that chance, given how they handled this situation?

It'll take work (and time, and potentially personnel turnovers, if the story presented is true) for them to build back trust. Some applicants won't know the full story/won't be able to be picky given how competitive MD application cycles are, but I still think it will affect their application numbers and yield for a while.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I disagree. Not only does this remove any MSTP applicants from the pool, but it also erodes trust in the application process for NYU, and the stability of the NYU admin. It also speaks volumes of the admin's commitment to their students, faculty, and transparency, particularly if the scenario posed by that commenter is true.

Who's to say they won't rescind acceptances for the MD or PhD only programs next cycle? Who's to say they won't remove their tuition waivers halfway through the year, and make current students reimburse them? Would you take that chance, given how they handled this situation?

Perhaps... it's too early to see if this affects the MD applicant pool. I need to check the school-specific threads in NYU, but as far as I know, they only rescinded the MSTP offers. I don't see any effects yet on the general pool. Most schools have those processes generally separated.

We have seen PhD programs suspend admissions processes at Boston University, and there will be a lot of press if MD offers get rescinded (just as there is uproar when it's discovered a school overenrolled and have to incentivize enroll-confirmed students to defer to next year). For the sake of managing the blowback, the President and Board must be informed of or have initiated this decision. For any of the other speculated actions to occur, I'm certain the President and Board need to be consulted given the positive press that occurred when NYU announced it was going tuition-free.

 

[Doormat21]

I just want to remind everyone the Dean can't just unilaterally execute this without the "consent" of the President and the Board. That is to say, if there is red ink, the Board is telling the Dean to restructure.

Yes, I would be afraid to protest about it now. See all the crackdowns from the Gaza conflict and the steps taken at most universities as a result. See the end of Act I of Wicked (end of the movie part 1). Strange price to pay for free tuition; and I don't think it will affect their admissions desirability.

How Freshman Year Mistakes Keep You Out of Med School | SDN

Freshman year mistakes and bad choices can limit your future options for a health professional career - learn how to avoid common missteps.

www.studentdoctor.net

The word is that the D and the DOS got the consent but without informing the faculty or the students. They have done this before- it is the reason why many investigators have LEFT the SOM for other institutions. Interesting because the whole nonprofit status EXISTS because of the school status. Without it, the hospital would be private and they wouldn't make the kind of money they are making now. The faculty and student have been cowed.... Sad, but true.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The word is that the D and the DOS got the consent but without informing the faculty or the students. They have done this before- it is the reason why many investigators have LEFT the SOM for other institutions. Interesting because the whole nonprofit status EXISTS because of the school status. Without it, the hospital would be private and they wouldn't make the kind of money they are making now. The faculty and student have been cowed.... Sad, but true.

Not disagreeing. I have hated that type of shady move, but suffice to say, sometimes that's part of the job in the C/D suite of a university.

 

[Doormat21]

Not disagreeing. I have hated that type of shady move, but suffice to say, sometimes that's part of the job in the C/D suite of a university.

part of the job in the C/D suite of a university ? Nah, and BTW- you are obviously a spy from that office.

 

[Neuronix]

part of the job in the C/D suite of a university ? Nah, and BTW- you are obviously a spy from that office.

As much as I hate that it's true, that is what goes on in academics. Decisions known to be unpopular to faculty are just made without the input of those faculty. Protest at your own risk.

 

[Doormat21]

I disagree. Not only does this remove any MSTP applicants from the pool, but it also erodes trust in the application process for NYU, and the stability of the NYU admin. It also speaks volumes of the admin's commitment to their students, faculty, and transparency, particularly if the scenario posed by that commenter is true.

Who's to say they won't rescind acceptances for the MD or PhD only programs next cycle? Who's to say they won't remove their tuition waivers halfway through the year, and make current students reimburse them? Would you take that chance, given how they handled this situation?

It'll take work (and time, and potentially personnel turnovers, if the story presented is true) for them to build back trust. Some applicants won't know the full story/won't be able to be picky given how competitive MD application cycles are, but I still think it will affect their application numbers and yield for a while.

As much as I hate that it's true, that is what goes on in academics. Decisions known to be unpopular to faculty are just made without the input of those faculty. Protest at your own risk.

Bingo.

 

[Doormat21]

As much as I hate that it's true, that is what goes on in academics. Decisions known to be unpopular to faculty are just made without the input of those faculty. Protest at your own risk.

Indeed, this decision was planned. They fired the NYU MSTP director 2 years ago who had successfully renewed the training grant through
multiple cycles. Instead, they appointed someone who had no established experience writing training grants. Now, why would they do that ?
Is it not obvious ? Also, there is not one basic science chair that supports what they did.