Harvard or UCSF?

[GreendaleCC]

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Yes, I know it has come up multiple times.

No, I am not a troll.

I have spoken to multiple gp/specialists that graduated from both schools on the issue. Some say UCSF, some say Harvard. All say both are great, I can't make a wrong decision. Some say I'm an idiot for thinking UCSF over Harvard. Some say HSDM will put me far below UCSF as a GP.

The cost difference for me will be about 60k, but with the public schools raising tuition faster than privates, who knows what it will actually be when it's all said and done. I am undecided on specializing, but would like to keep that door open. I would like to end up practicing in CA.

My predicament is that if I go to UCSF, I will wonder if I am closing some doors that only the ivies have access to. UCSF also has a larger class size and most likely less individual attention than HSDM. I have also heard that the faculty and experience at HSDM is top notch. I wonder how much budget cuts will factor into my experience at UCSF. Also, some people say that UCSF specialties take a lot of good cases, meaning I will have less exposure to different procedures.

I will probably be happier in SF for the 4 years due to proximity to family and better weather. But if specialty is my ultimate goal, and Harvard will pave the easiest way to that goal, I can tough it out for a better future.

TL: DR
Is 60k enough of a difference to go to UCSF over Harvard?
Will I have a harder time specializing out of UCSF?
Does UCSF have just as much clout on the west coast as Harvard? ie., if I wanted to be considered for CA specialties, does UCSF approximate HSDM in getting their students in?
Is UCSF having to make noticeable cuts due to being publicly funded?
If I go to Harvard, will I have access to a secret society a la The Skulls?

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Both costs about the same. I would go to Harvard.

 

[Troyvdg]

Go to the school you can best see yourself at. It sounds like that's UCSF. You say you'll be happiest at UCSF, sounds like a no brainer to me...Both have very different environments in terms of the students and curriculum. (Clearly I'm biased) But, I enjoyed my time more at HSDM than UCSF.
You mention $60k, but you also have to factor in interest, aka it'll be more than $60k-especially with tuition increases. (I'm doing hpsp, so it wasn't an issue for me,again I'm biased)
Both schools are some form of P/F and will set you up to specialize-if that's what you choose to do...but again, your success in d-school will be a lot easier if you are in an environment you enjoy. It seems like prestige is the only thing keeping Harvard in the running (UCSF is a big name in healthcare).

I personally wanted to get out of CA, so that also influenced my decision. It sounds like you want to stay local.

 

[GreendaleCC]

Both costs about the same. I would go to Harvard.

Harvard's COA is estimated ~380k, while UCSF is ~330k. I have a small scholarship from UCSF that will bring it to around ~60k difference..

 

[GreendaleCC]

@BIYANT, the skulls thing was just a small joke.

@Troyvdg, there's things I want now that may not be the best for us in the future. To a certain extent, we aren't very good at delaying gratification. I'm sure I will eventually be fine at HSDM. My gf said she would move, I have a couple friends over in Boston, and everyone says it's a great city. I can put up with a lot more punishment if it means being better off for my future (I guess that's why were all in dschool, right?). I'm just trying to figure out if the difference bt the schools are discernible/worth it.

 

[MedDevil]

You're picking between, arguably, the most prestigious west coast d-school and the most prestigious east coast d-school. You can't go wrong either way, it just seems like you want to go to the school that will best set you up for success, which is understandable.

Is 60k enough of a difference to go to UCSF over Harvard?
This depends on your financial situation, obviously, but interest means it'll be closer to 70-80K when you're out (possibly higher if you decide to specialize). As I said, the schools are comparable as far as reputation in healthcare goes, so this might be enough of a dent for you to attend UCSF.

Will I have a harder time specializing out of UCSF?
Not at all. Based on the info from interview day, UCSF has excellent match rates and any healthcare residency program worth their salt knows that UCSF is a top-tier school.

Does UCSF have just as much clout on the west coast as Harvard? ie., if I wanted to be considered for CA specialties, does UCSF approximate HSDM in getting their students in?
I don't think residencies have regional biases, but all California residencies will likely be familiar with UCSF grads (especially since there are 2x as many of them as HSDM grads and the former are more likely to stay in CA). I'd say it might even be easier to go to a CA residency from UCSF since it's much easy to do externships/work with hospitals in the area.

Is UCSF having to make noticeable cuts due to being publicly funded?
I can't speak to this since I don't attend the school, but they did mention that they've consistently been #1 in research funding.

The city culture and curriculums between UCSF and Harvard are VERY different. UCSF starts pre-clinic in the first month, you won't hold a hand piece at HSDM until the end of year 2 (how important this is to you will probably also factor into your decision). I'm actually partial to SF as a city, but I didn't have your choice and thought HSDM was the best fit for my interests.

Most of here are still pre-dents or incoming students; you'll get a much clearer picture by talking to current students over on the dental forums or the Class of 2018 Facebook group.

 

[gn4]

Sounds like you really want to go to UCSF. That's where you should go

 

[distressstudent]

I actually met a person who applied in the same cycle as you and also got into both UCSF and Harvard. Jeeze I wonder how many of you guys are out there lol. Anyways, she ultimately chose UCSF because it was always the top choice for her. When asked about the other ivy leagues she interviewed at/got into, she said that the environment was too stressful. So I guess the environment at UCSF is more lax? All anecdotic accounts so take what you want from this.

 

[djtiesto14]

I would pick Harvard

 

[nahehes49]

I actually met a person who applied in the same cycle as you and also got into both UCSF and Harvard. Jeeze I wonder how many of you guys are out there lol. Anyways, she ultimately chose UCSF because it was always the top choice for her. When asked about the other ivy leagues she interviewed at/got into, she said that the environment was too stressful. So I guess the environment at UCSF is more lax? All anecdotic accounts so take what you want from this.

This. I've actually heard this multiple times, both from others and at my ucsf interview. OP, It sounds like you're leaning more towards ucsf.

 

[BIGMEECHY]

HARVARD...Wow just saying the name gives me chills! As for me, ill be attending everest dental school.

 

[J777]

. When asked about the other ivy leagues she interviewed at/got into, she said that the environment was too stressful. So I guess the environment at UCSF is more lax? All anecdotic accounts so take what you want from this.

I can't speak for all the ivy leagues. However, in regards to HSDM vs UCSF, I found Harvard to be a bit more chill. Also know some graduating dental students from both schools and the consensus is the same. Again, this is what I have experienced.. You should speak with students from both schools, as well as students from other d schools who might not have biased answers

 

[grandslamsam]

There were a number of reasons why I picked HSDM over other schools: The P/F system, high specialization rate, great reputation, it's the antithesis of Florida, and it oddly enough ended up being the cheapest option.

 

[sc22991]

UCSF is very well known in the health field but you have to see that kind of knowledge limited in the east coast. The Harvard prestige is known world-wide and it would probably open a lot more doors for you in that sense. I'm an international student and live in the east coast--none of my family or friends, from my homeland or in the states (unless they were pre-med of some sort) have heard of UCSF (so unfortunate) but that is probably how most people are if they're not involved in health. Of course, since you're from Cali everyone around you would all recognize UCSF...I HATE the cold weather as well, but if I were you, I would attend Harvard, and look for residencies in California. This would probably differentiate you from all the other students in Cali schools especially since they only pick 35 people in their class. You'd receive extra attention from the professors, which translates to very personal recommendation letters--> great residencies in Cali, or other places if you change your mind about living in Cali.

 

[predentalhopeful2015]

The hard-on for Harvard is huge in this thread.

UCSF starts pre-clinic in the first month, you won't hold a hand piece at HSDM until the end of year 2 (how important this is to you will probably also factor into your decision).

GreendaleCC, I say go with UCSF.

UCSF is cheaper and it seems you'll get started on clinical skills sooner (which is important because those can have a steep learning curve even if you're a smart person). All of this "prestige" garbage isn't going to make anyone a competent dentist. If you care about prestige, UCSF is just as huge a name in the medical community as Harvard is. I'm not really sure what sort of doors you think Harvard is going to open for you that you won't be able to have opened at UCSF. But maybe the possibility of mythical doors is worth the 60k price tag to you.

According to this completely arbitrary ranking (http://dental-schools.findthebest.com/): University of Michigan is #1, UCSF is #3, and Harvard is #16. That's about as useful as all these people harping on and on about Harvard's "prestige."

Are you trying to go into academic dentistry? That's the only way I can see "prestige" mattering at all. Patients won't care where you went to school 99% of the time. And anyone who cares isn't someone you want to be around.

 

[wiseman22]

Definitely look up the previous threads about Harvard vs UCSF! (I'm sure you have 😉)

You definitely cannot go wrong with either schools, as you know. There is not a huge gap of clinical skills from whether you attended Harvard or UCSF--I could see this between UoP and Harvard perhaps..clinical skills you can't go wrong with either, you will not have a significantly better clinical skills because you attended Harvard or UCSF. I would have told you to go to the school with a cheaper tuition, wanting to practice near there, and being close to home in a heartbeat but I think the class size is a huge factor...it's not just 10 less people but TWICE as less..Also specifically for UCSF, even though it's not a big class compared to other schools like NYU, I know a friend who was really affected by professors just not even noticing her.

I have a friend who became sick for 2 and a half weeks in January at UCSF and none of the professors even noticed. Knowing her personally, she's not extremely shy in any way for no one to notice her. When she got better she tried extremely hard to get back on track and reached out to the professors to see if she could do anything to catch up but instead they made her repeat D1 all over the following year. That is a LOT of money wasted.

I've attended both large and small schools in my lifetime. I have always benefitted most from a small class. Professors from both UCSF and Harvard would be very well-renowned people, but the benefit of Harvard would be that you'd have personal relationships with them. If you happen to be falling behind, the professors will take care of you and help you to get back on track. If you are doing well, they will notice, remember, and put that on your recommendation letter. 35 people is less than half of what UCSF class has, that is almost like saying professors can spend double the time with you. They will make sure they take care of you and that you succeed.

And as spoiled as this may sound, a private institution has so many more perks than people realize, and they won't realize it till they've experienced going to a private school. Cuts from funding is VERY noticeable, and in dental school especially you need all the resources you can get. I've transferred from private to public institution, and was shocked by all the resources that were not provided to me that I took for granted at my original institution. I don't doubt that UCSF has so many great resources as well, but funding is just a huge part of the deal that could really limit your studies while in school. I know people are talking about the prestige of Harvard. It is great and everyone will know that you are a brilliant dentist--however, I would have told you the same thing and would have leaned towards a private institution with a significantly small class size even if it wasn't Harvard.

But as you know, you can't go wrong! I wish you luck in your decision process!

 

[Wahoowah]

HSDM student here:

OP should recognize the strong emphasis Harvard places on your medical education. In the first two years you will spend 95% of your time at Harvard Med. You will hardly feel like a dental student until the end of your second year. If you genuinely have an interest in learning the pathophys/management of systemic disease and want to have that extra advantage for the pre-oral surgery boards, then this is right place. If you're thinking general or even non-surgical specialties I'd say give it some more thought. Great thing about being here is the access to other degree programs--like the MPA, MPH, and MBA.

It's also pretty laid back. I've hardly been stressed the past two years, and this is largely attributable to being pass fail/no rank. Boston is also a nice city, although the cold does get frustrating at times.

Both are great schools though. If you work hard, you will get everything that you want out of dental school. I'd say just go with what your gut tells you.

 

[longhornpride]

You won't pick up a hand piece at Harvard till the end of your 2nd year. If you want to specialize, go to Harvard. If you want to be a GP... I'd pick another school.

 

[GreendaleCC]

Thanks for all the input. Hardest decision of my life thus far, but I chose UCSF. Ultimately, the west coast is where I want to be, and I feel that UCSF and Harvard are about par in terms of prestige and opening doors on the west coast. I also wanted to be close to my family as we are going through some rough times recently.

Finally, I just think I'll be happier at UCSF for the 4 years. I think that'll show up in my performance. For those that said the ivy's are more stressful, I don't think so. I only applied to Harvard (just for fun initially), but they were extremely welcoming and friendly. I didn't get any sense of entitlement or pretentiousness from the students or faculty. They were just really good people who happen to have done some amazing things. All the students were pretty relaxed. I actually think UCSF will be more stressful because people have to do more to stand out in a class of 88 vs 35 (35 students with that H, no less). But again, I think the happiness factor will take care of the additional stress.

If you guys have any questions for me, feel free to ask, either through this thread or PM.

 

[Ferneezy]

^^^ you are not a sheep

 

[childofthesacredheart]

I think you made a great decision chosing UCSF over Harvard. Staying close to family is absolutely beautiful - being able to have a family that supports you through college - There is nothing more important than that.

Ice and snow might seem like a small thing - but talk to people who have spent years living in the ice and snow - it is painful to have to drive through ice and snow every winter.