Harvard v. Penn v. NYU v. WashU

[Mr.Worldwide]

Hi All,

It's officially decision-time. These are the --greatly unexpected--final six: Columbia, Yale, Penn, Harvard, NYU, and WashU. "Rebound Bosh, Back Out To Allen..."

A little background to help with any advice (which I am truly grateful for in any capacity as I deserve none): I am heavily interested in orthopedics if procedural work wins out, but if not and my fine motor skills betray me, I am drawn to IM —> cardiology. Proximity to family does not matter to me nor social support in a way that drastically influences my decision (from IL)--don't worry I call my mom almost daily. I fall in line with the "doctor, and.." philosophy. I plan on dabbling in a second industry at some point in my career. Therefore, building and creating a strong network/foundation while in school will be important to me. I am upper-middle-class, which puts me in the no-mans-land of financial aid. I am going to be paying out of pocket and don't see need-based aid offering much alleviation. Loan forgiveness feels so uncertain I don't view it as a legitimate option currently. I would like to be in the northeast for medical school, but hope to eventually find my way to the Midwest long-term for my residency/career. Toxic competition intra-class is something I really have low-tolerance for--pass/fail matters to me a lot. NOTE: I haven't negotiated merit aid anywhere although I don't think most of these places will budge.

TLDR: The most important factors to me are: (1) keeping as many doors open as possible (in and outside of medicine), (2) (as comfortably as possible) matching into a respected, high-volume residency program--anywhere in the nation--that will train me well, (3) low intra-class competition, and (4) leaving school with principal debt that isn't insanely crippling. This feels like the great differentiator.

Now, without further ado, my perceived (potentially myopic) pros/cons of each school:

YALE
(+) Yale System -- See this as a structure mirroring real-life. Why not start learning the way that I'll be learning for the rest of my life after school?
(+) True P/F -- No competition, love this approach
(+) Match List -- gorgeous
(+) Students seem close and non-competitive
(-) New Haven -- seemingly rough for travel, food desert, smaller than I'd like, less available opportunities outside of medicine in city
(-) Cost -- haven't received financial package, but doubt it will be substantial and therefore I'll be paying full COA. Don't think Yale offers much merit aid.

PENN
(+) Wharton/Penn: great business exposure/proximity/network with Wharton students
(+) Penn HealthTech: good established structure for future interest of mine in MedTech
(+) Penn HealthX: good established structure for future interest of mine in MedTech
(+) Philly: diverse city, lot of opportunity, COL lower than many of the other cities on list
(+) Curriculum: Love the curricular structure, feels like great personal fit
(+) Match List-- beautiful
(-) Cost -- No merit aid at this point, therefore I'll probably be paying full COA
(-) Ranked Clerkships
(-) AOA

HARVARD
(+) Dream
(+) HBS and beyond: great business exposure/proximity/network with HBS students
(+) Student phenotype: seemingly everyone (the majority) here are a "doctor, and" moreso than other places
(+) True Pass/Fail -- lovely
(+) Required in-person -- good way to connect with class/remain motivated
(+) Match List -- royalty
(+) Innovation Lab at Harvard -- perfect for MedTech interests
(- - -) Cost -- actually absurd on all fronts. Don't think I'd consider myself sane to take out the amount of loans required at this point. Curious to hear from others what $ amount between schools would be acceptable for this opportunity. And any creative ways to cover costs lol. Already applying for private/external scholarships.

WASHU
(+) Cost will require no loans
(+) Great match list
(+) P/F curriculum -- with weird competencies that essentially make it H/P/F
(+) Very community-centered
(+) Midwestern culture -- friendly, nice, warm people
(-) Seemingly smaller footprint in medtech realm, disconnected from "hub" of medicine in northeast
(-) St Louis -- wouldn't love to be in this city for medical school when I have NY, Boston, Philly as options

NYU
(+) Cost will require no loans
(+) Concrete Jungle
(+) Limitless opportunities in other industries
(+) MD+ has a strong presence in NY and would be helpful for networking
(+) 1 full year of dedicated research can keep me from having to take a fifth year for ortho
(+) Match List -- a bit worried that it is so NY heavy, but think it might be a personal preference outcome -- I do not want to be in NY longterm necessarily
(-) Ranked Clerkships
(-) AOA
(-) Less robust mentorship -- as reported anecdotally from students
(-) NY-bias for residency placement (Although seemingly driven by student preference?)

COLUMBIA
(+) NY opportunities in MedTech
(+) Curricular structure --very in-line with my strengths/interests
(+) Class seems close/friendly/warm
(+) P/f pre-clerkship
(+) Ortho mentorship
(+) Match List
(-) Cost -- do not qualify for their need-based aid program
(-) ranked clerkships
(-) Recent news -- Seems Columbia is getting thrown around quite a bit in a negative way.

Reminder: haven't tried negotiating anywhere--feel uncomfortable/privileged. Would love thoughts and thank you already for your time spent reading.

I am lost.

Cheers!

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[RockClimberMed]

WashU unless H follows up with aid tbh

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

WashU or NYU are 100% the answer here. $300,000+ in tuition alone at 8-9% is insane and will grow to well over half a million by the time you can pay that off. And that’s after-tax dollars, don’t forget.

I would pick WashU over NYU due to the better admin and better curriculum!

 

[Brownies_15]

Unfortunately, Yale/Harvard are notorious at not giving merit/negotiating. But, Penn is known to heavily negotiate scholarships! I would push them hard with NYU and WashU, they budged for someone I know around the PTE deadline! Also, their AOA is after match, so idk if this really is that big a deal?

But if not, I say WashU/NYU!

disclaimer: WashU WL

 

[TheIllustratedMan]

WashU is the clear winner here! They have some of the best IM, orthopaedic- and general surgery programs in the country. Barnes Jewish is urban, high-volume (including shock trauma), and a quaternary referral center for parts of Missouri and Illonois, meaning you will encounter a diverse patient population and rare pathology.

If you want to stay in the midwest long-term, you have a full-tuition scholarship at WashU (best medical school in the midwest), and if you are interested in tech/innovation (see the cortex), WashU is the best choice. The only school I would consider for tech and innovation over WashU is arguably Stanford.

As for WashU versus NYU, WashU is more prestigious, has a better administration, better research, a better teaching hospital and stronger residency programs. WashU is a no-brainer here.

Disclaimer: Accepted WashU, WL UPenn.

I usually just lurk, but I just want to offer a counterpoint to this. NYU is one of the top 4 orthopedics residency programs in the country according to Doximity, and current students have told me personally that the admin has been extremely supportive of their various interests and personal situations. I'm also well-aware that NYU has a very robust technology commercialization and tech-innovation programs.

I'm sure WashU is an equally prestigious option (perhaps more, I really don't know how to nitpick at this level!), so you will definitely be fine going to whichever of the two schools. Again, I'm not expert, so I really don't know schools differences when it comes to prestige. But huge congrats on this incredible success!

 

[phantasmo]

lmao

 

[TheGOOD_MD_slimreaper]

Why are people arguing about prestige? Do y’all still care about prestige even though there’s basically no rankings anymore? Also, prestige is very subjective and depends on who you’re talking to. There’s no difference in prestige or opportunities amongst these schools, OP. Make a decision based on finances and curriculum in imo.

 

[Mr.Worldwide]

Appreciate everyone's responses--and ultimate civility lol.

A large and important difference (for me) between WashU and NYU is the traditional four-year curriculum at WashU vs. the optional 3rd year of dedicated research at NYU. I would plan to take this third year to complete research if still interested in something competitive and thus, be able to avoid a 5th year.

Given how Step1, along with many schools' curriculums, have gone pass/fail --presumably inflating the importance of other things like research output-- do you feel like this year of uninterrupted research before I submit residency apps would be more advantageous than cramming research in during the wee hours of the night throughout my four years at WashU? Feel like the difference is hard to conceptualize without really going through it myself. If any current students could weigh in on how this feels, that would be amazing.

Additionally, I always thought NY would be THE place to go for MedTech given the city itself. I feel comfortable networking beyond my school, but also didn't realize WashU was as high on the list as @Mighty_Mitochondria mentioned earlier.

 

[cbum]

Go to NYU, you will accomplish all your goals and more and likely even only spend 3 years getting your MD and at most 4 with a research year. The NYC bias is because of preference, people want to be in NY or Boston and the northeast in general after being here. Personally, NYU>WashU and it’s not close IMO, the only way I’d choose WashU is a significant cost difference.

-Got the A to WashU but R from NYU this cycle

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

I’m astonished at how many votes Harvard has. Absolutely wild

 

[Mr.Worldwide]

If Penn were to match the offers of WashU and NYU, do any of you feel that there is an argument for Penn over the others that is more objective than the subjectives discussed already (personal preferences with regards to location and curriculum-fit)?

 

[newkungfukenny]

I’m astonished at how many votes Harvard has. Absolutely wild

The way people just vote on these based on us news ranking is astonishing 💀

 

[Bogeytea]

Can’t speak to the other schools, but seems like NYU is the best fit for your goals, with the added (big) plus of not digging you into debt.

Couple of comments— my kid is at NYU now, past the clinical year, and is loving it.

NYU
(+) Cost will require no loans
COMMENT: THIS IS AN AMAZING GIFT, do not underestimate what a head start a loan free med education gives you. Remember if u go somewhere that requires loans, the loans start accruing interest, so the total amount you have to pay accelerates astronomically from what you borrow. Think how nice it would be to have these $100k’s for a down payment or a car when you need one. Do your your future self a favor and take the free tuition

(+) Concrete Jungle—personal preference, but my kid likes being able to walk everywhere. If u hate cities, maybe nyc is not for you.
(+) Limitless opportunities in other industries
(+) MD+ has a strong presence in NY and would be helpful for networking

(+) 1 full year of dedicated research can keep me from having to take a fifth year for ortho
COMMENT: HUGE ADVANTAGE AGAIN if you are planning a definite year of research to make ur self more competitive in ortho, which is a good idea. Not only do you graduate with no debt, but get a paycheck one year sooner vs a 5 year plan

(+) Match List -- a bit worried that it is so NY heavy, but think it might be a personal preference outcome -- I do not want to be in NY longterm necessarily
(-) NY-bias for residency placement (Although seemingly driven by student preference?)

COMMENT: NYU match list is NYU heavy because of their unique offer for students to fast track/direct match into some specialties after 3 years. As you can imagine, all the direct match spots for derm/ortho/neurosurg/other competitive specialties get snatched up quickly to start residency sooner And avoid surprises in a competitive match. Other students choose to stay in NYC because of SO’s jobs or bc they like NY—the fact many match at the other stellar programs at Cornell and Columbia show these programs know the value of the NYU students. But look at where the kids who choose to leave NYU are matching – these are high-quality top programs across the country.

No offense, but when places like Yale/Wash u/U Penn have match lists that send med students around the country, I interpret this to mean no one is all that excited to stay in New Haven/St Louis/Philly…

(-) Ranked Clerkships:
They have pass, fail, honors, but no ranking

(-) AOA:
word is that AOA designation is not released until after the match, so it does not affect residency applications.

(-) Less robust mentorship -- as reported anecdotally from students
My kid has received fairly amazing mentorship even from year one – I teach in a different medical school, and the NYU kids seem to connect with their faculty and be able to explore different fields during pre-clinical years more than at my institution. His friends in first year were already sitting in on surgeries, which was helpful since they had clinical rotations starting year 2. It gives them a chance to decide what they’re interested in sooner.

One last comment, which is an advantage you did not list – all four years of medical students live in subsidized housing in Vilcek hall, which is in a fairly swanky part of Manhattan, one block away from most of their hospitals. Rooms are small, but rent is amazingly affordable for New York City (at this point roughly 1200 a month, including all utilities). Every medical student has their own room in one or two bedroom suites. But the fact that their entire class lives together in the same apartment building for four years means that they have many more chances to hang out and support each other. He had a consistent study group all through the pre-clinical year, and now even during clinical years, he gets together with other med students two or three times a week. Clinical years can be very isolating in other medical schools because you only see one or two people at a time on rotations. So I think this unified housing for four years is actually a huge plus for community and support.

Sorry, this turned out really long. Hope it helps, good luck with your decision, and congratulations on all of your offers! For all of you future docs and current docs on the forum, thank you for contributing your considerable gifts and talents towards medicine – we need good people in this field!

 

[Bogeytea]

Last comment—All of your options are clearly high prestige. Just like your undergrad drops out from importance on a medical resume, your residency/fellowship training sites count much more in your clinical street cred than your med school. But even so, any one of these will look impressive on your cv.

You can seriously match anywhere from nyu or wash u (esp with an extra year of research, so I still lean towards the 3 year nyu option unless you hate nyc). So if you yearn for hms credentials, take one of the free tuition offers now, and try to match in residency at hms — then u get the Harvard credential for residency, which matters more, while THEY pay YOU Instead of the other way around.

Hope the admitted students day helped u pick the best place for you. You can’t go wrong (with one of the tuition free places, that is!)

 

[catnip12]

Go to cheapest!! Nothing else matters.

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

+1 NYU

Couple things
- NYC is not the best city for med tech (Boston is) but it will still give you amazing opportunities and Boston is not far if you want to pursue that more deeply.
- Research is increasingly important, but know that it can take more than a year to get pubs out (getting IRB, getting data, getting consensus, tracking down faculty and residents for edits, getting turned down from journals etc) - don't rely on that free 3rd year to do research because ideally you should have stuff in the works before then (a disadvantage of crammed/accelerated preclinicals is you dont have that time advantage to plant as many seeds earlier)
- NY heavy match list is almost certainly student preference.

No offense, but when places like Yale/Wash u/U Penn have match lists that send med students around the country, I interpret this to mean no one is all that excited to stay in New Haven/St Louis/Philly…

As a Yale student this made me laugh. Definitely true, usually people want to move on, but I think a wide-reaching match list is still an advantage and shows you the wide array of connections for students to go to. You also want to make sure at least **some** students stay at home programs (otherwise that could also be problematic), which is true for us and almost certainly true for Penn/WashU also. I think some programs students stay near their school out of necessity and some stay out of preference, NYU is definitely the latter.

Congrats on great options.

 

[Yhwach]

just go to Harvard.

 

[Student2025!]

UPenn or NYU!