Harvard vs UCSF

[GreendaleCC]

I posted this in the pre-dental forums and was told to come over here as current students of ucsf/harvard may have more information for me. Thanks in advance

I have spoken to multiple gp/specialists that graduated from both schools on the issue. Some say UCSF, some say Harvard. All say both are great, I can't make a wrong decision. Some say I'm an idiot for thinking UCSF over Harvard. Some say HSDM will put me far below UCSF as a GP.

The cost difference for me will be about 60k, but with the public schools raising tuition faster than privates, who knows what it will actually be when it's all said and done. I am undecided on specializing, but would like to keep that door open. I would like to end up practicing in CA.

My predicament is that if I go to UCSF, I will wonder if I am closing some doors that only the ivies have access to. UCSF also has a larger class size and most likely less individual attention than HSDM. I have also heard that the faculty and experience at HSDM is top notch. I wonder how much budget cuts will factor into my experience at UCSF. Also, some people say that UCSF specialties take a lot of good cases, meaning I will have less exposure to different procedures.

I will probably be happier in SF for the 4 years due to proximity to family and better weather. But if specialty is my ultimate goal, and Harvard will pave the easiest way to that goal, I can tough it out for a better future.

TL: DR
Is 60k enough of a difference to go to UCSF over Harvard?
Will I have a harder time specializing out of UCSF?
Does UCSF have just as much clout on the west coast as Harvard? ie., if I wanted to be considered for CA specialties, does UCSF approximate HSDM in getting their students in?
Is UCSF having to make noticeable cuts due to being publicly funded?

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[Sublimazing]

If you go to UCSF you will have no problem specializing in whatever you want.

 

[Daurang]

Both are equally good. Take UCSF...cheaper...better weather...next to home...way better food.

 

[Shunwei]

Actually, I would do neither.

 

[Sublimazing]

Actually, I would do neither.

Having UCSF or Harvard on your specialty application is a huge boon. These are two programs whose name actually matters.

 

[Shunwei]

Having UCSF or Harvard on your specialty application is a huge boon. These are two programs whose name actually matters.

Probably shouldn't have commented (I personally dislike these schools vs school y threads), but what I meant was that in the long run no matter which way the applicant wants to go neither of these schools would provide a lasting, profound advantage. If the applicant goes GP neither of these schools is strong clinically (IMHO). If the applicant goes to a residency and wants research any school will be able to provide research opportunities. In the grand scheme of things, the kind of research that dental students do is really Mickey Mouse to me, and most if not all schools will be able to provide this kind of opportunity. And neither school is cheap, Harvard being over 300k I believe and ucsf not too far behind even for in-state resident.

In the long run, I will repeat what many sages have already said on here: Go to the cheapest school. And neither of these schools can be considered cheap by a long shot. And reputation wise, our field is not like finance or law, where in the end your employers or clients truly care about where you go and your academic pedigree actually matters. In dentistry, no one really gives a rats ass where you went as long as you graduate and are accredited.

The only thing that may benefit from going to these schools may be if the applicants wants academia as a career. But most people don't consider that route so that can be discounted here.

 

[Sublimazing]

Probably shouldn't have commented (I personally dislike these schools vs school y threads), but what I meant was that in the long run no matter which way the applicant wants to go neither of these schools would provide a lasting, profound advantage. If the applicant goes GP neither of these schools is strong clinically (IMHO). If the applicant goes to a residency and wants research any school will be able to provide research opportunities. In the grand scheme of things, the kind of research that dental students do is really Mickey Mouse to me, and most if not all schools will be able to provide this kind of opportunity. And neither school is cheap, Harvard being over 300k I believe and ucsf not too far behind even for in-state resident.

In the long run, I will repeat what many sages have already said on here: Go to the cheapest school. And neither of these schools can be considered cheap by a long shot. And reputation wise, our field is not like finance or law, where in the end your employers or clients truly care about where you go and your academic pedigree actually matters. In dentistry, no one really gives a rats ass where you went as long as you graduate and are accredited.

The only thing that may benefit from going to these schools may be if the applicants wants academia as a career. But most people don't consider that route so that can be discounted here.

I respect your opinion and I know it is shared by many. But I cannot jump onto the "cheapest is best" bandwagon. I think cost of tuition should definitely hold major weight in one's decision process but I think that finding the school that fits your needs is so much more important.

Now if one is set on general dentistry I think cost becomes a much more important factor bc you're trying to get in, get your DDS and get out. I think some schools prepare you a lot better when you get out, but clinical skills probably start to normalize after a few years of private practice (though not 100% IMO)

When it comes to specialty though, I think school makes a big difference. If you plan on specializing it's good to be at a name school...all things equal, the guy from UCSF is going to beat out the guy from Midwestern every time.

I think surrounding yourself with people who plan to specialize keeps you competitive and focuses you on post-grad plans. If all your classmates are doing 4 externships, you will too...if none of your classmates are doing externships, you might think 2 is more than enough. If all your co-residents begin studying 5 months in advance for the nbme, so will you.

Being at a school that has more specialties gives you easy access to the specialty of your choice. It's a huge help to be able to start dropping by your school's omfs/pedo dept. on a regular basis...you learn the specialty and come LoR time the dept. chair can write a really good letter, and when they call them up they can vouch for you with some real knowledge.

Finally, and this one is OMFS specific...the NBME. I promise, if you attend a school that pairs you with those a-hole med students you have a huge advantage on the CBSE. If I were starting over that would be a primary focus of mine. At my school we spent 14 minutes talking about thalassemias and I never saw them again for 5 years...getting a proper education gives you leverage.

Again, I get where you are coming from, and I think your advice is good for a lot of people...and this is a career (despite the bleeding hearts who come on here and claim packing amalgam is their calling) so money should always be on your mind...but saying cost is the only thing is rarely true...especially in the areas of whiskey and prostitutes and uh, dental schools.

 

[sacapuntas]

I think surrounding yourself with people who plan to specialize keeps you competitive and focuses you on post-grad plans. If all your classmates are doing 4 externships, you will too...if none of your classmates are doing externships, you might think 2 is more than enough. If all your co-residents begin studying 5 months in advance for the nbme, so will you.

If all your classmates are that badass, won't it make it much more difficult to have a badasser class rank?

 

[Sublimazing]

If all your classmates are that badass, won't it make it much more difficult to have a badasser class rank?

Both those schools are P/F.

 

[Shunwei]

I respect your opinion and I know it is shared by many. But I cannot jump onto the "cheapest is best" bandwagon. I think cost of tuition should definitely hold major weight in one's decision process but I think that finding the school that fits your needs is so much more important.

Now if one is set on general dentistry I think cost becomes a much more important factor bc you're trying to get in, get your DDS and get out. I think some schools prepare you a lot better when you get out, but clinical skills probably start to normalize after a few years of private practice (though not 100% IMO)

When it comes to specialty though, I think school makes a big difference. If you plan on specializing it's good to be at a name school...all things equal, the guy from UCSF is going to beat out the guy from Midwestern every time.

I think surrounding yourself with people who plan to specialize keeps you competitive and focuses you on post-grad plans. If all your classmates are doing 4 externships, you will too...if none of your classmates are doing externships, you might think 2 is more than enough. If all your co-residents begin studying 5 months in advance for the nbme, so will you.

Being at a school that has more specialties gives you easy access to the specialty of your choice. It's a huge help to be able to start dropping by your school's omfs/pedo dept. on a regular basis...you learn the specialty and come LoR time the dept. chair can write a really good letter, and when they call them up they can vouch for you with some real knowledge.

Finally, and this one is OMFS specific...the NBME. I promise, if you attend a school that pairs you with those a-hole med students you have a huge advantage on the CBSE. If I were starting over that would be a primary focus of mine. At my school we spent 14 minutes talking about thalassemias and I never saw them again for 5 years...getting a proper education gives you leverage.

Again, I get where you are coming from, and I think your advice is good for a lot of people...and this is a career (despite the bleeding hearts who come on here and claim packing amalgam is their calling) so money should always be on your mind...but saying cost is the only thing is rarely true...especially in the areas of whiskey and prostitutes and uh, dental schools.

I know what you are saying Sub, but here is the thing. If the NBDE had not gone P/F, UCSF and Harvard may indeed hold an advantage due to their well known history of getting heir students high scores which then help them to get a choice residency position. But with the boards becoming completely P/F, this advantage has been completely wiped clean. Nowadays, it seems like residency positions is based more than ever on the 'fluff' materials like extracurriculars, etc. research will factor a bit into this but like I said, the kind of research that dental students do is really elementary (what can you expect out of 5-8 hrs of availability per week anyway?). Most people can expect maybe a poster presentation on Research Day, or if they are extremely lucky maybe a 3rd or 4th authorship in an obscure article. Now, if I were to sit on a dental admissions committee (and I think I am qualified better than many), the kind of 'research' I would look for would be just to see if the applicant has some basic experience in analytical thinking, planning, and sustained commitment to a long-term project. Most residents are expected to do some researching so these qualities matter the most. If there is a paper or if the project the applicant worked on is a hot one, great, but that's just icing on the cake.

I remember a discussion with Armorshell years ago, and I think he is right in saying that you can specialize from any school. In fact, it might be an advantage to NOT go to a P/F school so that if you work hard, you might be able to show some concrete stats to support your candidacy. In a P/F school with boards also P/F, seems like kissing ass and doing fluff would be the only way to go.

And costs should be a consideration. We as dentists are consumers to the schools in that we are buying their service to educate us. Therefore, as with anything, the cost at which this is done should be a foremost consideration, because anything--no matter how good-- that is purchased at the wrong price will be a bad purchase. Money borrowed accrue interest and the difference between a state school and someplace like Penn or Harvard is very substantial, you throw in several years of interests with the costs of a residency and you will understand how much of an albatross you will be dealing with.

 

[Daurang]

Anyone would jump at the chance for UCSF or Harvard; I don't have a problem with that. All else equal, price come into consideration first and foremost. Your whole financial lives for the rest of your lives are littered with fees, most of which there are no escaping and you have no control over. You at least have in this one instance control over picking the price of dental school. You can start off your career in the right direction by being financially prudent. Note the most expensive dental schools in the country aren't any better ranking or more selective than the cheapest dental schools.

 

[Sublimazing]

I know what you are saying Sub, but here is the thing. If the NBDE had not gone P/F, UCSF and Harvard may indeed hold an advantage due to their well known history of getting heir students high scores which then help them to get a choice residency position. But with the boards becoming completely P/F, this advantage has been completely wiped clean. Nowadays, it seems like residency positions is based more than ever on the 'fluff' materials like extracurriculars, etc. research will factor a bit into this but like I said, the kind of research that dental students do is really elementary (what can you expect out of 5-8 hrs of availability per week anyway?). Most people can expect maybe a poster presentation on Research Day, or if they are extremely lucky maybe a 3rd or 4th authorship in an obscure article. Now, if I were to sit on a dental admissions committee (and I think I am qualified better than many), the kind of 'research' I would look for would be just to see if the applicant has some basic experience in analytical thinking, planning, and sustained commitment to a long-term project. Most residents are expected to do some researching so these qualities matter the most. If there is a paper or if the project the applicant worked on is a hot one, great, but that's just icing on the cake.

I remember a discussion with Armorshell years ago, and I think he is right in saying that you can specialize from any school. In fact, it might be an advantage to NOT go to a P/F school so that if you work hard, you might be able to show some concrete stats to support your candidacy. In a P/F school with boards also P/F, seems like kissing ass and doing fluff would be the only way to go.

And costs should be a consideration. We as dentists are consumers to the schools in that we are buying their service to educate us. Therefore, as with anything, the cost at which this is done should be a foremost consideration, because anything--no matter how good-- that is purchased at the wrong price will be a bad purchase. Money borrowed accrue interest and the difference between a state school and someplace like Penn or Harvard is very substantial, you throw in several years of interest scrum entangling with the costs of a residency and you will understand how much of an albatross you will be dealing with.

You make some strong points, and I agree since the boards have gone pass/fail schools that typically had an advantage in board prep have lost some of their claim to fame.

But a few points I have; in the new era of fluff and bs on applications, residency directors who climbed the ladder in the old days still give credit to the named schools...and as everyone's app starts to look the same (no gpa, no board score, minimal research) then name recognition may be very important. At my dental anesthesia program one of the applicants had ug at MIT, phd stanford, ucla dental and my program director basically saved him a spot before we met him. So in his case, school name put more than a foot in the door.

Secondly, we may only be able to hypothesize...but some schools continue to produce an insane amount of specialists...and they are all named schools (ucsf, harvard, penn, columbia...didn't columbia match 11/12 omfs this year?!). So if I was set on specializing I definetely would weight these schools higher on my list with their continuing track record! You may not be able to confirm why this is happening, but the numbers do not lie.


And finally, a lot of people in academia who are on this adcom boards went to these named institutions...and no matter who you are as an applicant, if you attended the same school as your adcom it's a leg up. And that is certainly more likely coming from a big name.

Again these are different strategies that will benefit different people. But I personally regret going with the cheapest option...it cost me 3 years of my already terrible life.

 

[sgv]

Harvard and specialize in OMFS or ortho...UCSF has 30% of its students going to some specialty. I don't know its match rate.

I would guess Harvard has almost all its students go onto specialties because it would it would be a waste of money to go to Harvard just to be a GP.

These "top dental schools" were only viewed as tier 1 by SDN in 2000-10 because they had the top board scores. Back when boards mattered, the biggest reason why peeps primarily chose Ivy and UC was because these schools had a history of great board scores...if boards are pass fail, you'll need to come up with another reason why these schools are worth it because they all sacrificed clinical for board prep...

it terms of the best bang for your buck when comparing a clinical school versus a didactic school...it's cheaper to stick a bunch of students in a lecture hall and pay only one lecturer to teach a course than to pay a bunch of instructors, administration, and a course director to run a simulation course that uses up thousands of dollars of operative equipment per student.

 

[Bereno]

I am on the cost bandwagon, but I should note a few things about it. Cost is the most important factor in my mind, but it is far, far from the only factor. All else equal, the cheaper school is my most commonly given answer. However, if someone knows they want OMFS, I totally agree with @Sublimazing that the med school kids have an advantage and that name matters. Those are facts that cannot be ignored. I think the trick here is to weight them appropriately.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

I'm normally in favor of the cheapest, but this guy will be paying OOS fees for his first year at UCSF, and also the cost of living in SF is going up like crazy. All those ppl from Silicon Valley are moving up to SF, causing rents to skyrocket. I think Harvard would be a good choice, especially if you are even remotely considering specializing.

 

[GreendaleCC]

I'm in state. The price difference for everything for 4 years (projected) will be 60k.

Rent is quite a bit more in SF vs Boston, but the tuition for UCSF is far less than HSDM.