Has Mass General ever taken a DO for IM?

[jrlob91]

---

Members don't see this ad.

The most interesting thing for me is that this person actually did not even answer my repeatedly asked question about whether this interview was even at MGH IM, and not anesthesia or PMR. Instead, this person lashed out emotionally, likely due to their own insecurities regarding this subject.

lol, yes the interview was at MGH IM, it was not anesthesia or PMR, not sure why you would even suggest it would be those specialties since I already said it was IM. I didn’t “lash out,” I simply stated what many people on the DO forum think, that you repeatedly put down others’ accomplishments because it is not what you have heard from all your contact with program directors in your first year of medical school. It must be hard for you to fathom that some people are just more qualified than you are to give advice on this forum. The student that I am referring to is extremely gifted, having done multiple global health outreach programs in her 2nd and 3rd years. Her board scores were fantastic, and she is very personable. She did not match there, but she did interview at MGH IM. She also interviewed at other prestigious institutions in the Northeast region. I am done with your holier than thou attitude when you haven’t even gone through any of this.

 

[sab3156]

lol, yes the interview was at MGH IM, it was not anesthesia or PMR, not sure why you would even suggest it would be those specialties since I already said it was IM. I didn’t “lash out,” I simply stated what many people on the DO forum think, that you repeatedly put down others’ accomplishments because it is not what you have heard from all your contact with program directors in your first year of medical school. It must be hard for you to fathom that some people are just more qualified than you are to give advice on this forum. The student that I am referring to is extremely gifted, having done multiple global health outreach programs in her 2nd and 3rd years. Her board scores were fantastic, and she is very personable. She did not match there, but she did interview at MGH IM. She also interviewed at other prestigious institutions in the Northeast region. I am done with your holier than thou attitude when you haven’t even gone through any of this.

Like people before said, connections can get you interviews at places that otherwise never would have looked at a DO's application.

I guess you're not a morning person.

 

[mwsapphire]

lol, yes the interview was at MGH IM, it was not anesthesia or PMR, not sure why you would even suggest it would be those specialties since I already said it was IM. I didn’t “lash out,” I simply stated what many people on the DO forum think, that you repeatedly put down others’ accomplishments because it is not what you have heard from all your contact with program directors in your first year of medical school. It must be hard for you to fathom that some people are just more qualified than you are to give advice on this forum. The student that I am referring to is extremely gifted, having done multiple global health outreach programs in her 2nd and 3rd years. Her board scores were fantastic, and she is very personable. She did not match there, but she did interview at MGH IM. She also interviewed at other prestigious institutions in the Northeast region. I am done with your holier than thou attitude when you haven’t even gone through any of this.

Even if Mass Gen won't take a DO, plenty of other amazing hospitals will take DO's.
The Tufts affiliated hospitals, Boston Medical Center, etc.
I just really think it's silly that we have a top ten hospital or bust attitude here on SDN.

 

[jrlob91]

Even if Mass Gen won't take a DO, plenty of other amazing hospitals will take DO's.
The Tufts affiliated hospitals, Boston Medical Center, etc.
I just really think it's silly that we have a top ten hospital or bust attitude here on SDN.

Hey, I’m with you. I’m just making it my goal to show the elitists on here that this kind of thing does happen, regardless of how many people on here try to **** on the DO profession

 

[gyngyn]

This looks like a good time to remind everyone to address each other with civility.

 

[mwsapphire]

Nobody is crapping on the DO profession, just being realistic of limitations in such a competitive profession as a DO. It's also unusual because for IM, DO don't usually have as much of a disadvantage as they do at the Harvard affiliated hosiptals like Mass Gen, BID, and Birghan and Woman's.

Hey, I’m with you. I’m just making it my goal to show the elitists on here that this kind of thing does happen, regardless of how many people on here try to **** on the DO profession

 

[Goro]

lol, yes the interview was at MGH IM, it was not anesthesia or PMR, not sure why you would even suggest it would be those specialties since I already said it was IM. I didn’t “lash out,” I simply stated what many people on the DO forum think, that you repeatedly put down others’ accomplishments because it is not what you have heard from all your contact with program directors in your first year of medical school. It must be hard for you to fathom that some people are just more qualified than you are to give advice on this forum. The student that I am referring to is extremely gifted, having done multiple global health outreach programs in her 2nd and 3rd years. Her board scores were fantastic, and she is very personable. She did not match there, but she did interview at MGH IM. She also interviewed at other prestigious institutions in the Northeast region. I am done with your holier than thou attitude when you haven’t even gone through any of this.

You'd be surprised how many self-hating DO students there are on SDN.

Frankly, I'm finding the "they must have had connections" meme a little tiring. It diminishes the accomplishments of the candidates.

 

[Dwan]

You'd be surprised how many self-hating DO students there are on SDN.

Frankly, I'm finding the "they must have had connections" meme a little tiring. It diminishes the accomplishments of the candidates.

While it's unfair, I don't think it diminishes the accomplishments of the students if they had to do more than the MD to get it. In IM, the hierarchy is present even within MD schools. MDs from top 10s can match at top 10 IM programs with board scores in the 220s-230s, while those from low tiers typically need 250+/AOA; if anything, matching there from a lower ranked school is much more impressive than doing so from a top school. It's also important to recognize the hurdles because the application strategies are different. It's generally advised that DOs do away rotations if they want to aim for a high ranked IM program. For MDs, aways are not advised in IM for the purposes of getting interviews (more likely to hurt than help). Plus, the DO is much more likely to shine on the away vs the MD because many of them are overqualified for the places they are aiming. The best resident at my MD school is a DO (260+ board scores, excellent teaching, friendly to everyone) who wasn't able to get into the top programs simply because of the bias, but I'm sure seeing people like that in person (vs judging them by their school) would greatly help their cause.

 

[Lawpy]

You'd be surprised how many self-hating DO students there are on SDN.

Frankly, I'm finding the "they must have had connections" meme a little tiring. It diminishes the accomplishments of the candidates.

While it's unfair, I don't think it diminishes the accomplishments of the students if they had to do more than the MD to get it. In IM, the hierarchy is present even within MD schools. MDs from top 10s can match at top 10 IM programs with board scores in the 220s-230s, while those from low tiers typically need 250+/AOA; if anything, matching there from a lower ranked school is much more impressive than doing so from a top school. It's also important to recognize the hurdles because the application strategies are different. It's generally advised that DOs do away rotations if they want to aim for a high ranked IM program. For MDs, aways are not advised in IM for the purposes of getting interviews (more likely to hurt than help). Plus, the DO is much more likely to shine on the away vs the MD because many of them are overqualified for the places they are aiming. The best resident at my MD school is a DO (260+ board scores, excellent teaching, friendly to everyone) who wasn't able to get into the top programs simply because of the bias, but I'm sure seeing people like that in person (vs judging them by their school) would greatly help their cause.

Yeah there is a lot of inbreeding and elitism going on at top tier residencies. School name definitely helps a lot, which is why matching there from a low tier school is a major accomplishment.

 

[mwsapphire]

You'd be surprised how many self-hating DO students there are on SDN.

Frankly, I'm finding the "they must have had connections" meme a little tiring. It diminishes the accomplishments of the candidates.

While it's unfair, I don't think it diminishes the accomplishments of the students if they had to do more than the MD to get it. In IM, the hierarchy is present even within MD schools. MDs from top 10s can match at top 10 IM programs with board scores in the 220s-230s, while those from low tiers typically need 250+/AOA; if anything, matching there from a lower ranked school is much more impressive than doing so from a top school. It's also important to recognize the hurdles because the application strategies are different. It's generally advised that DOs do away rotations if they want to aim for a high ranked IM program. For MDs, aways are not advised in IM for the purposes of getting interviews (more likely to hurt than help). Plus, the DO is much more likely to shine on the away vs the MD because many of them are overqualified for the places they are aiming. The best resident at my MD school is a DO (260+ board scores, excellent teaching, friendly to everyone) who wasn't able to get into the top programs simply because of the bias, but I'm sure seeing people like that in person (vs judging them by their school) would greatly help their cause.

- ( for Goro's post) That's really sad. Just, really sad. Imagine being in med school and being disappointed with yourself. Also, it is more likely they had connections though, I don't think we're diminishing accomplishments, just being realistic here. I mean, half of the residents at Harvard affiliated hospitals are literally from Harvard med, the rest from other T10 MD programs, you'd be hard pressed to even find someone from a mid-lower-tier MD there, much less a DO. Noone is saying it should be that way, I don't think it's the same as belittling accomplishments.

- ( for Dwan's post) You guys are scaring me. ( Since I'm likely applying DO and MD).

This is kind of a silly pre med question, but do your grades in a DO program affect chances of matching at a better program? Since DO schools have actual grades? I've always wondered.

 

[Goro]

- ( for Goro's post) That's really sad. Just, really sad. Imagine being in med school and being disappointed with yourself. Also, it is more likely they had connections though, I don't think we're diminishing accomplishments, just being realistic here. I mean, half of the residents at Harvard affiliated hospitals are literally from Harvard med, the rest from other T10 MD programs, you'd be hard pressed to even find someone from a mid-lower-tier MD there, much less a DO. Noone is saying it should be that way, I don't think it's the same as belittling accomplishments.

- ( for Dwan's post) You guys are scaring me. ( Since I'm likely applying DO and MD).

This is kind of a silly pre med question, but do your grades in a DO program affect chances of matching at a better program? Since DO schools have actual grades? I've always wondered. .

Yes, DO schools (at least mine) have %scores. PD really don't care about preclinical grades.

 

[mwsapphire]

Yes, DO schools (at least mine) have %scores. PD really don't care about preclinical grades..

It's the clinical grades they care about, right?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

.
It's the clinical grades they care about, right?

Board score > clinical grades/research/LORs >>>>>> pre-clinical grades

DO residency programs place a lot of emphasize on fit as well.

 

[Dwan]

- ( for Goro's post) That's really sad. Just, really sad. Imagine being in med school and being disappointed with yourself. Also, it is more likely they had connections though, I don't think we're diminishing accomplishments, just being realistic here. I mean, half of the residents at Harvard affiliated hospitals are literally from Harvard med, the rest from other T10 MD programs, you'd be hard pressed to even find someone from a mid-lower-tier MD there, much less a DO. Noone is saying it should be that way, I don't think it's the same as belittling accomplishments.

- ( for Dwan's post) You guys are scaring me. ( Since I'm likely applying DO and MD).

This is kind of a silly pre med question, but do your grades in a DO program affect chances of matching at a better program? Since DO schools have actual grades? I've always wondered. .

I wouldn't worry too much if you're interested in IM. There are plenty of great programs in IM that aren't Harvard, and DOs (and MDs) do get into competitive fellowship fields all the time from mid tier residency programs. It's only if you want MGH GI that the same concept continues...but that is not really necessary for 99% of us.

 

[mwsapphire]

.
I wouldn't worry too much if you're interested in IM. There are plenty of great programs in IM that aren't Harvard, and DOs (and MDs) do get into competitive fellowship fields all the time from mid tier residency programs. It's only if you want MGH GI that the same concept continues...but that is not really necessary for 99% of us.

It seems like most specialties that most docs end up practicing ( IM, FM, OB GYN, Nuero, Psych, PMR, etc.) are open to DO's on almost the same stride as MD's. Id's say Harvard affiliated hospitals are the rare exception as an IM related- thing that is off the table for DO's.
I think once you remove the SDN filter that's what it really is.

 

[Goro]

.
It's the clinical grades they care about, right?

Yes

 

[SLC]

.
It's the clinical grades they care about, right?

Unless your preclinical grades are poor.

 

[jhamaican]

You know what's sad though?
How prestige is so important in literally the hardest career path in the USA.
I mean, from the perspective of pre meds, it really adds the feeling like you'll never be good enough?
Medicine is a career where its so hard just to get your foot in the door, then stuff like this almost makes you feel less accomplished that you even made it to med school ( MD/DO) in the first place.
IDK I hate to be whiney it just depresses me, especially combined with the SDN mentality.

You know why they place so much emphasis on pedigree?

Because the best predictor of the future is the past performance.

This is why residency programs will most often take an average candidate from a prestigious institution over a stand-out at a lesser school.

You are much more likely to get a screw up resident from a no-name school.

I have seen it multiple times in residency already. It is a disaster for everyone.

Quality control is more stringent at top academic centers.

People also underestimate how insanely difficult it is to get into these top 10 medical schools. The candidate must of had their **** together for years. Compare this to someone who had to opt for DO over MD because of lesser qualifications. Does not the individual who worked their ass off to get into a top medical school deserve more benefit of the doubt?

Like it or not, taking an average to low student from a top medical school will always be the safe play.

And technically, you are less "accomplished" if you to go a lesser medical school. Not that it has anything to do with you as a person, so don't take it personally, its only work.

 

[SLC]

You know why they place so much emphasis on pedigree?

Because the best predictor of the future is the past performance.

This is why residency programs will most often take an average candidate from a prestigious institution over a stand-out at a lesser school.

You are much more likely to get a screw up resident from a no-name school.

I have seen it multiple times in residency already. It is a disaster for everyone.

Quality control is more stringent at top academic centers.

People also underestimate how insanely difficult it is to get into these top 10 medical schools. The candidate must of had their **** together for years. Compare this to someone who had to opt for DO over MD because of lesser qualifications. Does not the individual who worked their ass off to get into a top medical school deserve more benefit of the doubt?

Like it or not, taking an average to low student from a top medical school will always be the safe play.

And technically, you are less "accomplished" if you to go a lesser medical school. Not that it has anything to do with you as a person, so don't take it personally, its only work.

Sorry, but I can’t take anyone seriously with an avatar like yours.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

You know why they place so much emphasis on pedigree?

Because the best predictor of the future is the past performance.

This is why residency programs will most often take an average candidate from a prestigious institution over a stand-out at a lesser school.

You are much more likely to get a screw up resident from a no-name school.

I have seen it multiple times in residency already. It is a disaster for everyone.

Quality control is more stringent at top academic centers.

People also underestimate how insanely difficult it is to get into these top 10 medical schools. The candidate must of had their **** together for years. Compare this to someone who had to opt for DO over MD because of lesser qualifications. Does not the individual who worked their ass off to get into a top medical school deserve more benefit of the doubt?

Like it or not, taking an average to low student from a top medical school will always be the safe play.

And technically, you are less "accomplished" if you to go a lesser medical school. Not that it has anything to do with you as a person, so don't take it personally, its only work.

All the nopes!

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Sorry, but I can’t take anyone seriously with an avatar like yours.

An excellent replay with no substance to a post with plenty of substance.

Judging by your lack of counter argument I take it that you agree with his post wholeheartly.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

You know why they place so much emphasis on pedigree?

Because the best predictor of the future is the past performance.

This is why residency programs will most often take an average candidate from a prestigious institution over a stand-out at a lesser school.

You are much more likely to get a screw up resident from a no-name school.

I have seen it multiple times in residency already. It is a disaster for everyone.

Quality control is more stringent at top academic centers.

People also underestimate how insanely difficult it is to get into these top 10 medical schools. The candidate must of had their **** together for years. Compare this to someone who had to opt for DO over MD because of lesser qualifications. Does not the individual who worked their ass off to get into a top medical school deserve more benefit of the doubt?

Like it or not, taking an average to low student from a top medical school will always be the safe play.

And technically, you are less "accomplished" if you to go a lesser medical school. Not that it has anything to do with you as a person, so don't take it personally, its only work.

It's sad that people have this attitude which is why there is still discrimination to the title as shown by places in MGH. Yes, MGH is discriminatory! Lets call it what it is. There is not excuse to not interview someone who has excelled in med school and has gotten top board scores, etc, irregardless of where they come from. I see lots of people who have attended med schools in other countries on MGH's list. They didn't seem to have a problem with those schools. When I go into the ER of a large hospital such as Mt. Sinai or Columbia, there are DOs and MDs treating people so the discrimination/bias whatever you guys on SDN call it needs to stop because you may be that "unlucky" person whose life is saved by a DO.

 

[jhamaican]

Sorry, but I can’t take anyone seriously with an avatar like yours.

feeling is mutual

Thank you for your well thought out reply

 

[jhamaican]

It's sad that people have this attitude which is why there is still discrimination to the title as shown by places in MGH. Yes, MGH is discriminatory! Lets call it what it is. There is not excuse to not interview someone who has excelled in med school and has gotten top board scores, etc, irregardless of where they come from. I see lots of people who have attended med schools in other countries on MGH's list. They didn't seem to have a problem with those schools. When I go into the ER of a large hospital such as Mt. Sinai or Columbia, there are DOs and MDs treating people so the discrimination/bias whatever you guys on SDN call it needs to stop because you may be that "unlucky" person whose life is saved by a DO.

I understand, it's 2018: We all deserve trophies and 1st place just for getting into a medical school and making good grades.

Unfortunately, medical school does not operate in a vacuum. It's not a complete reset of your previous academic life once you are accepted. The past still matters.

Even top fellowship programs out of internal medicine continue to screen by Step 1 scores. Same thought process.

And for some further education: it is substantially more difficult to get into a top medical school in India and score great marks then anything comparable in the United States. Something most people don't understand but the top schools do. This is why top tier academic centers continue to accept these candidates.

Imagine 1000x the competition.

And you are trying to compare these foreign graduates who survived this insane competition and had to learn a foreign language to boot to candidates who are simply accepted into lower tier medical schools and even DO who managed to make decent grades? Please...

By the way: irregardless is not a real word. It is either regardless or irrespective. You are incorrectly combining two words. Someone with a prestigious institution pedigree would never make that mistake 😉

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I understand, it's 2018: We all deserve trophies and 1st place just for getting into a medical school and making good grades.

Unfortunately, medical school does not operate in a vacuum. It's not a complete reset of your previous academic life once you are accepted. The past still matters.

Even top fellowship programs out of internal medicine continue to screen by Step 1 scores. Same thought process.

And for some further education: it is substantially more difficult to get into a top medical school in India and score great marks then anything comparable in the United States. Something most people don't understand but the top schools do. This is why top tier academic centers continue to accept these candidates.

Imagine 1000x the competition.

And you are trying to compare these foreign graduates who survived this insane competition and had to learn a foreign language to boot to candidates who are simply accepted into lower tier medical schools and even DO who managed to make decent grades? Please...

By the way: irregardless is not a real word. It is either regardless or irrespective. You are incorrectly combining two words. Someone with a prestigious institution pedigree would never make that mistake 😉

LOL ok troll. I'm going to move on..

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I understand, it's 2018: We all deserve trophies and 1st place just for getting into a medical school and making good grades.

Unfortunately, medical school does not operate in a vacuum. It's not a complete reset of your previous academic life once you are accepted. The past still matters.

Even top fellowship programs out of internal medicine continue to screen by Step 1 scores. Same thought process.

And for some further education: it is substantially more difficult to get into a top medical school in India and score great marks then anything comparable in the United States. Something most people don't understand but the top schools do. This is why top tier academic centers continue to accept these candidates.

Imagine 1000x the competition.

And you are trying to compare these foreign graduates who survived this insane competition and had to learn a foreign language to boot to candidates who are simply accepted into lower tier medical schools and even DO who managed to make decent grades? Please...

By the way: irregardless is not a real word. It is either regardless or irrespective. You are incorrectly combining two words. Someone with a prestigious institution pedigree would never make that mistake 😉

And for someone who can judge others on whether or not they go to a prestigious institution, you should really know the difference between "then" and "than" lol! Oh..and I did attend an Ivy...but you probably wouldn't know what that is.

"And for some further education: it is substantially more difficult to get into a top medical school in India and score great marks then anything comparable in the United States. Something most people don't understand but the top schools do. This is why top tier academic centers continue to accept these candidates."

 

[jhamaican]

LOL ok troll. I'm going to move on..

My posts are 100% non-troll. Only meant to educate and explain.

As a medical student, you do not yet have enough experience to understand.

I have always found that the closer to the truth you get, the more people will screech and retreat.

Pro life tip: don't take things you don't like to hear as a personal attack.

There has yet to be a serious response to any of my posts in this thread.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I think people on here are overreacting from both perspectives. Yes, chances are as a DO or a low-tier MD you aren't going to get to a residency at the Harvard level (notably except for PMR). Getting all upset over this is kind of pointless; I agree that it's "unfair" to be judged by your degree/school name, but that's just life. I'm sure you've all ooooohed and ahhhhed at the Harvard pedigree in the past-- whether we like it or not, pedigree matters when you're dealing with the ivory tower. We can complain about it and say it sucks or whatever, but for now that's the way things are (and I doubt they're going to change significantly for any of us).

On the other hand, who cares? You can be a great physician without going to Harvard, whether you're an MD or a DO. If your goal was to strive for these types of residencies, you shouldn't have gone DO, or you should've worked to go to a better MD, whatever. Accept the path that you're on. I'm going to be going to DO school this fall and I'm super excited to get to be a doctor. Make peace with the fact that you probably won't end up at Harvard, and just accept it. You won't be less of a person/physician for it, and it won't impact your life unless you're the type of person who obsesses over prestige and needs to be the best.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

You know why they place so much emphasis on pedigree?

Because the best predictor of the future is the past performance.

This is why residency programs will most often take an average candidate from a prestigious institution over a stand-out at a lesser school.

You are much more likely to get a screw up resident from a no-name school.

I have seen it multiple times in residency already. It is a disaster for everyone.

Quality control is more stringent at top academic centers.

People also underestimate how insanely difficult it is to get into these top 10 medical schools. The candidate must of had their **** together for years. Compare this to someone who had to opt for DO over MD because of lesser qualifications. Does not the individual who worked their ass off to get into a top medical school deserve more benefit of the doubt?

Like it or not, taking an average to low student from a top medical school will always be the safe play.

And technically, you are less "accomplished" if you to go a lesser medical school. Not that it has anything to do with you as a person, so don't take it personally, its only work.

I don't know you so I can't say for certain, but to me this post reeks of someone who was handed an advantageous hand in life. I'll bet if you look at those top ten schools, the backgrounds of a lot of those students are from wealthy and educated families. Of course there are exceptions. I come from a poor family with almost no higher education and no physicians or connections to medicine. I had to figure a lot out on my own, didn't even know to study for the SAT in high school, worked full time through college, received zero quality advising in early college, and yet I figured out how to finally be a strong student and got a good app together. It was fairly late in the game by that point and most medical schools were incapable of looking past my early college performance, and the context from which it was derived, to see my current level of academic performance. I took a DO acceptance, which was honestly more than I deserved given my record, and now I am at the top of my class and on track for a very high board score, have research done, lots of extracurriculars, honor society etc. Do you think it's fair that when we get to the great equalizer that is medical school and the boards, that past performance (prior to medical school) should ALWAYS matter? I think there should be more consideration of the hurdles that others have had to overcome. You wouldn't truly understand unless you come from where I do.

 

[IsWhat]

I don't know you so I can't say for certain, but to me this post reeks of someone who was handed an advantageous hand in life. I'll bet if you look at those top ten schools, the backgrounds of a lot of those students are from wealthy and educated families. Of course there are exceptions. I come from a poor family with almost no higher education and no physicians or connections to medicine. I had to figure a lot out on my own, didn't even know to study for the SAT in high school, worked full time through college, received zero quality advising in early college, and yet I figured out how to finally be a strong student and got a good app together. It was fairly late in the game by that point and most medical schools were incapable of looking past my early college performance, and the context from which it was derived, to see my current level of academic performance. I took a DO acceptance, which was honestly more than I deserved given my record, and now I am at the top of my class and on track for a very high board score, have research done, lots of extracurriculars, honor society etc. Do you think it's fair that when we get to the great equalizer that is medical school and the boards, that past performance (prior to medical school) should ALWAYS matter? I think there should be more consideration of the hurdles that others have had to overcome. You wouldn't truly understand unless you come from where I do.

This.

My local state MD school did a poll when my friend was there and they found something like 70% of the students were children of a physician. If you don’t think there are advantaged individuals in this game then you are mistaken.

 

[jhamaican]

I don't know you so I can't say for certain, but to me this post reeks of someone who was handed an advantageous hand in life. I'll bet if you look at those top ten schools, the backgrounds of a lot of those students are from wealthy and educated families. Of course there are exceptions. I come from a poor family with almost no higher education and no physicians or connections to medicine. I had to figure a lot out on my own, didn't even know to study for the SAT in high school, worked full time through college, received zero quality advising in early college, and yet I figured out how to finally be a strong student and got a good app together. It was fairly late in the game by that point and most medical schools were incapable of looking past my early college performance, and the context from which it was derived, to see my current level of academic performance. I took a DO acceptance, which was honestly more than I deserved given my record, and now I am at the top of my class and on track for a very high board score, have research done, lots of extracurriculars, honor society etc. Do you think it's fair that when we get to the great equalizer that is medical school and the boards, that past performance (prior to medical school) should ALWAYS matter? I think there should be more consideration of the hurdles that others have had to overcome. You wouldn't truly understand unless you come from where I do.

Self-pity is never a good look and you couldn't be more wrong about me, but none of that really matters.

The first lesson is that life isn't fair, and expecting life to be fair will only lead to frustration and anger. We can already see many instances of this attitude in this thread. Would strongly recommend dropping this attitude ASAP and instead use your frustration to propel yourself forward.

And let me ask you a question in return: given the fact that medical school and residency seats are a limited resource, do you think it is right to give that top spot to yourself and your hurdles versus someone who had it together during your struggles? Are you going to hold it against a candidate that they are from a well-off family of physicians and have connections?

You are essentially weighing your struggles versus another candidates past performance.

Problem is, past performance can be objectively measured whereas your struggles are very subjective. Your struggles are likely to be interpreted (for right or wrong) as less of a barrier than they seem to you.

Second life lesson: Everyone's personal trials and tribulations seem more momentous and important compared to ourselves than others. We as humans are selfish at baseline and anything that impacts us directly is magnified in importance.

And for all the complaining, keep in mind that medicine is as good as it gets. While not perfect, the medical school/residency system is far more generous than almost any other field in terms of holistic measures. Look at any private business/finance/engineering/politics etc...

This is coming from someone who has survived the gauntlet and has seen the inner workings of medical school and residency program applications at one of the "prestigious" institutions everyone in this thread is salivating over.

I appreciate your legitimate response rather than lashing out. Past performance always matters and is very important, but it's not everything. As we have seen in this thread even DO students make it to the top if everything aligns.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Self-pity is never a good look and you couldn't be more wrong about me, but none of that really matters.

The first lesson is that life isn't fair, and expecting life to be fair will only lead to frustration and anger. We can already see many instances of this attitude in this thread. Would strongly recommend dropping this attitude ASAP and instead use your frustration to propel yourself forward.

And let me ask you a question in return: given the fact that medical school and residency seats are a limited resource, do you think it is right to give that top spot to yourself and your hurdles versus someone who had it together during your struggles? Are you going to hold it against a candidate that they are from a well-off family of physicians and have connections?

You are essentially weighing your struggles versus another candidates past performance.

Problem is, past performance can be objectively measured whereas your struggles are very subjective. Your struggles are likely to be interpreted (for right or wrong) as less of a barrier than they seem to you.

Second life lesson: Everyone's personal trials and tribulations seem more momentous and important compared to ourselves than others. We as humans are selfish at baseline and anything that impacts us directly is magnified in importance.

And for all the complaining, keep in mind that medicine is as good as it gets. While not perfect, the medical school/residency system is far more generous than almost any other field in terms of holistic measures. Look at any private business/finance/engineering/politics etc...

This is coming from someone who has survived the gauntlet and has seen the inner workings of medical school and residency program applications at one of the "prestigious" institutions everyone in this thread is salivating over.

I appreciate your legitimate response rather than lashing out. Past performance always matters and is very important, but it's not everything. As we have seen in this thread even DO students make it to the top if everything aligns.

I do not get where you saw self-pity in my response. If anything I am promoting people to not have self-pity and to make the best of the situation they were handed. There is no such thing as a level playing field, but I am simply saying that making sweeping generalizations about the student body that you are deeming unworthy of these coveted residency positions, does not accurately portray the story of many of us. I am not comparing my struggles to anyone else, everyone has problems, what I am saying is that past performance has many reasons for having ocurred and is not as simple as those guys worked hard and these guys didn't. Also, I don't remember complaining one bit in my response, but if it came off that way then I must have not been as clear as I was intending to be. I am ecstatic to be able to pursue what seemed like a pipe dream to me from the time I was a small child, and I love what I do everyday. I don't take one bit of it for granted. Additionally, I have absolutely zero desire to match at Mass Gen. I have a friend doing a surgical sub residency there now who absolutely despises the preening and a$$ kissing their co-residents do and the cutthroat nature of the facility. For me, I will be happy matching into the specialty I want at any academic institution, it doesn't have to be tip top. I hope that attending a DO school will serve me just fine in that regard.

Also to answer your question posed back to me, I do not think that my prior struggles matter when selecting for residency, I'm no more special than any other student. I just want my hard work in medical school to be given the same consideration as any other medical student with a similar application as myself. If we are identical scorewise on paper, it should come down to with which one of us the PD and current residents would rather work.

 

[Osminog]

Self-pity is never a good look and you couldn't be more wrong about me, but none of that really matters.

The first lesson is that life isn't fair, and expecting life to be fair will only lead to frustration and anger. We can already see many instances of this attitude in this thread. Would strongly recommend dropping this attitude ASAP and instead use your frustration to propel yourself forward.

And let me ask you a question in return: given the fact that medical school and residency seats are a limited resource, do you think it is right to give that top spot to yourself and your hurdles versus someone who had it together during your struggles? Are you going to hold it against a candidate that they are from a well-off family of physicians and have connections?

You are essentially weighing your struggles versus another candidates past performance.

Problem is, past performance can be objectively measured whereas your struggles are very subjective. Your struggles are likely to be interpreted (for right or wrong) as less of a barrier than they seem to you.

Second life lesson: Everyone's personal trials and tribulations seem more momentous and important compared to ourselves than others. We as humans are selfish at baseline and anything that impacts us directly is magnified in importance.

And for all the complaining, keep in mind that medicine is as good as it gets. While not perfect, the medical school/residency system is far more generous than almost any other field in terms of holistic measures. Look at any private business/finance/engineering/politics etc...

This is coming from someone who has survived the gauntlet and has seen the inner workings of medical school and residency program applications at one of the "prestigious" institutions everyone in this thread is salivating over.

I appreciate your legitimate response rather than lashing out. Past performance always matters and is very important, but it's not everything. As we have seen in this thread even DO students make it to the top if everything aligns.

Honestly, I think people would take your posts more seriously if you had a different avatar. Not to make this thread political, but the avatar with Trump smugly smiling and pointing doesn't pair particularly well with your condescending, callous lectures about how "life isn't fair."

 

[jhamaican]

Honestly, I think people would take your posts more seriously if you had a different avatar. Not to make this thread political, but the avatar with Trump smugly smiling and pointing doesn't pair particularly well with your condescending, callous lectures about how "life isn't fair."

I am proud to have an avatar of our president of the United States.

Will definitely not be changing it until after 2024.

 

[realDrSeuss]

I am proud to have an avatar of our president of the United States.

Will definitely not be changing it until after 2024.

A trip to your post history makes me nauseous, how are people like you doctors when it seems you hate people lol

 

[jhamaican]

A trip to your post history makes me nauseous, how are people like you doctors when it seems you hate people lol

You also make me nauseous with your personal attacks rather than discussing the issue.

Please post examples of where "I hate people"

or are you just making things up now. Great post. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Goro]

Keep it nice, kids.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

You know why they place so much emphasis on pedigree?

Because the best predictor of the future is the past performance.

This is why residency programs will most often take an average candidate from a prestigious institution over a stand-out at a lesser school.

You are much more likely to get a screw up resident from a no-name school.

I have seen it multiple times in residency already. It is a disaster for everyone.

Quality control is more stringent at top academic centers.

People also underestimate how insanely difficult it is to get into these top 10 medical schools. The candidate must of had their **** together for years. Compare this to someone who had to opt for DO over MD because of lesser qualifications. Does not the individual who worked their ass off to get into a top medical school deserve more benefit of the doubt?

Like it or not, taking an average to low student from a top medical school will always be the safe play.

And technically, you are less "accomplished" if you to go a lesser medical school. Not that it has anything to do with you as a person, so don't take it personally, its only work.

You forget the part where the top tier candidate suddenly has a life breakdown and then sucks. Or the candidate who used to perform more poorly is suddenly top notch.

Past performance is important, but we're talking medicine. Everyone who makes it to the end is very smart and hard working.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

It's sad that people have this attitude which is why there is still discrimination to the title as shown by places in MGH. Yes, MGH is discriminatory! Lets call it what it is. There is not excuse to not interview someone who has excelled in med school and has gotten top board scores, etc, irregardless of where they come from. I see lots of people who have attended med schools in other countries on MGH's list. They didn't seem to have a problem with those schools. When I go into the ER of a large hospital such as Mt. Sinai or Columbia, there are DOs and MDs treating people so the discrimination/bias whatever you guys on SDN call it needs to stop because you may be that "unlucky" person whose life is saved by a DO.

Sad part is, midlevels loveee the intra-medicine conflict. Their body is unified and they love a fragmented medicine profession.
Helps them gain more and more autonomy one state at a time, while we keep measuring our tools.

 

[jhamaican]

You forget the part where the top tier candidate suddenly has a life breakdown and then sucks. Or the candidate who used to perform more poorly is suddenly top notch.

Past performance is important, but we're talking medicine. Everyone who makes it to the end is very smart and hard working.

Agree with the hard working part. I would say hard working and persistent. Many doctors I know are quite dumb (myself included)

and there are always exceptions. Sure. No one is denying this. A resident from a top school can come to residency/fellowship and take a giant ****.

But on AVERAGE, candidates from top tier institutions and prestigious pedigrees will be more reliable. This is why they are chosen preferentially.

These are FACTS.

You are welcome to your own opinion, but you will still be wrong.

You can cry about it all you want, but it will not change reality.

 

[qxrt]

To be honest, what jhamaican speaks of is the same concept as that seen in many other areas of life, such as credit score -- that prior record or accomplishment is one of the most reliable indicators of future performance. Not sure why many of you guys are trying to argue against such a concept that seems obvious and has been proven in other facets of life.

I mean, can you imagine a person with poor credit trying to argue that since they are currently debt-free, their credit history shouldn't matter and has no relevance to their risk for future loans? They'd get laughed out of the bank. And yet, for some reason, it's somehow considered a reasonable argument here to ignore all performance prior to medical school when considering a residency application.

I would absolutely view someone who went to, say, Harvard med school, as having shown a longer period of excellence than someone who went to an unranked med school, and let that influence how I rank them. Anyone who says otherwise is most likely someone who has not gone through the process of ranking or evaluating such applications and has an unrealistic view of the process.

This is not to say that by any means is matching into MGH IM a good indicator for success in life...but that's an irrelevant argument to the topic of this post, so you're bringing up a tangential issue that doesn't refute the argument. The question in this topic is not, "What kind of match is an indication of success and personal happiness?"

As for merit -- medicine ain't law or business -- being the equivalent of a DO in those fields would most definitely rule you out from, say, clerking for a supreme court justice. Medicine is more merit-based than some other professional fields if anything.

 

[mwsapphire]

To be honest, what jhamaican speaks of is the same concept as that seen in many other areas of life, such as credit score -- that prior record or accomplishment is one of the most reliable indicators of future performance. Not sure why many of you guys are trying to argue against such a concept that seems obvious and has been proven in other facets of life.

I mean, can you imagine a person with poor credit trying to argue that since they are currently debt-free, their credit history shouldn't matter and has no relevance to their risk for future loans? They'd get laughed out of the bank. And yet, for some reason, it's somehow considered a reasonable argument here to ignore all performance prior to medical school when considering a residency application.

I would absolutely view someone who went to, say, Harvard med school, as having shown a longer period of excellence than someone who went to an unranked med school, and let that influence how I rank them. Anyone who says otherwise is most likely someone who has not gone through the process of ranking or evaluating such applications and has an unrealistic view of the process.

This is not to say that by any means is matching into MGH IM a good indicator for success in life...but that's an irrelevant argument to the topic of this post, so you're bringing up a tangential issue that doesn't refute the argument. The question in this topic is not, "What kind of match is an indication of success and personal happiness?"

As for merit -- medicine ain't law or business -- being the equivalent of a DO in those fields would most definitely rule you out from, say, clerking for a supreme court justice. Medicine is more merit-based than some other professional fields if anything.

I mean, I think we're just trying to say that it shouldn't be this way as strictly as it is- Tufts Medical Center and Boston Medical Center do take DO's ( I'm from the area). And those are great hospitals with great physicians. I've even gone so far as to read about the DO physicians at these hospitals , ad patients love them. ( I do a lot of research on DO schools).

And that prior performance should not be the only indicator is what people on this thread are arguing. And your'e absolutely right, there are plenty of amazing hospitals that won't turn up their noses at DO's, MGH isn't everything.

I think the reason people aren't complaining about law or business applicants being ranked by school is that just making it to medical school takes so much over achievement , that it rubs people the wrong way to go nuts over school rank, only because it's arguably much harder to make it a lower tier MD/DO program than it is to make it a not super prestigious law or business program, but I don't know about that so I'm trying no to talk out of rear end.

 

[qxrt]

And that prior performance should not be the only indicator is what people on this thread are arguing.

But no one has been arguing that prior performance should be the only indicator of how well a resident will do. The argument is rather that it should be A factor, not the ONLY factor.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I mean, I think we're just trying to say that it shouldn't be this way as strictly as it is- Tufts Medical Center and Boston Medical Center do take DO's ( I'm from the area). And those are great hospitals with great physicians. I've even gone so far as to read about the DO physicians at these hospitals , ad patients love them. ( I do a lot of research on DO schools).

And that prior performance should not be the only indicator is what people on this thread are arguing. And your'e absolutely right, there are plenty of amazing hospitals that won't turn up their noses at DO's, MGH isn't everything.

But when choosing a MS4 to come on as one of your resident you generally don't have anything base your decision on save for their prior performance. Residency directors are hiring fresh grads in their first job as physicians - as MS4s they have absolutely no track record to speak of save for their grades and the institution that they came from. If I'm a PD at MGH or Penn Medicine and I'm choosing candidates, I'm gonna ultimately pick the ones who went to school at institutions similar to mine, worked with patient populations similar to mine and come with references from people who I know and whose judgement I trust and incidentally that is a big driver in why élite programmes tend to be so deeply incestuous (aside from the prestige whoring factor).

 

[gyngyn]

I mean, I think we're just trying to say that it shouldn't be this way as strictly as it is- Tufts Medical Center and Boston Medical Center do take DO's ( I'm from the area). And those are great hospitals with great physicians. I've even gone so far as to read about the DO physicians at these hospitals , ad patients love them. ( I do a lot of research on DO schools).

And that prior performance should not be the only indicator is what people on this thread are arguing. And your'e absolutely right, there are plenty of amazing hospitals that won't turn up their noses at DO's, MGH isn't everything.

I think the reason people aren't complaining about law or business applicants being ranked by school is that just making it to medical school takes so much over achievement , that it rubs people the wrong way to go nuts over school rank, only because it's arguably much harder to make it a lower tier MD/DO program than it is to make it a not super prestigious law or business program, but I don't know about that so I'm trying no to talk out of rear end.

Is there any way I could talk you into another color font?

 

[mwsapphire]

Is there any way I could talk you into another color font?

Sorry...I thought purple looked cool, it looks fine in my sig.

I thought you would have some commentary on what I wrote besides the color XD Pearls of wisdom.

 

[gyngyn]

Sorry...I thought purple looked cool, it looks fine in my sig.

I thought you would have some commentary on what I wrote besides the color XD Pearls of wisdom.

There is a time and a place for purple (Pantone color of the year notwithstanding).
I could do without the bolded type too...