Have you guys heard of this profession?

[rafman]

I guess there's something out there called naturopathic medicine. People can actually become naturopathic doctors. They also claim to have a holistic view on medicine and focus primarily on primary care (sounds familiar?) Have you guys ever heard of this or seen an ND (as these guys claim to call themselves "doctors"). Cool thing is that they don't even have to take the mcats .

I think people are worried about the last two letters at the end of their name should think about being an ND, I mean some people will think its a typo and think it was meant to say MD hahahaha.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine

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[manubrium]

I guess there's something out there called naturopathic medicine. People can actually become naturopathic doctors. They also claim to have a holistic view on medicine and focus primarily on primary care (sounds familiar?) Have you guys ever heard of this or seen an ND (as these guys claim to call themselves "doctors"). Cool thing is that they don't even have to take the mcats .

I think people are worried about the last two letters at the end of their name should think about being an ND, I mean some people will think its a typo and think it was meant to say MD hahahaha.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine

funny thing is they plagiarize all kinds of stuff from the do literature. look at the websites of their schools and orgs. kinda lazy.
wasn't there a big fiasco last yr or so in calif when some idiot in the legislature accidentally put them under the do licensing board to save money? there was much outrage and the legislature had to reverse that law.
if i want herbs i go to the grocery store. amazon has crystal pyramids for $11.99

 

[emtthink]

Yeah, they can't do much. One of my lab partners in gen chem went on to do that. sounds like its a lot of BS. Water treatments and what not.

 

[drgioiadds]

I guess there's something out there called naturopathic medicine. People can actually become naturopathic doctors. They also claim to have a holistic view on medicine and focus primarily on primary care (sounds familiar?) Have you guys ever heard of this or seen an ND (as these guys claim to call themselves "doctors"). Cool thing is that they don't even have to take the mcats .

I think people are worried about the last two letters at the end of their name should think about being an ND, I mean some people will think its a typo and think it was meant to say MD hahahaha.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine

They have been around for a long time. There are a lot of schools, but only a few are considered accredited. Its a 4 year program, no residency afterwards. In Ontario, I think they can bill OHIP (gov insurance plan). I know a few that work in the weight loss industry.

 

[fiznat]

Its a 4 year program, no residency afterwards.

Didn't know that. Anyone know what the curriculum is like?

 

[drgioiadds]

Didn't know that. Anyone know what the curriculum is like?

Here is a link to the Canadian School. I know 2 NDs who are very busy.

http://www.ccnm.edu/

 

[UBCvan]

Their focus is also on Chinese medicine or whatever. They are trained to turn down prescription drugs.

They're big on vitamins, etc. Most of them usually work in stores that sell Chinese medicine, vitamins, and things like that.

oh and btw, lots of them claim to cure the incurable without prescription drugs and surgeries.

 

[manubrium]

Here is a link to the Canadian School. I know 2 NDs who are very busy.

http://www.ccnm.edu/

i see a lot of business courses in their 'medical' curriculum, very interesting.

 

[fiznat]

For the lazy. All info is from http://www.ccnm.edu

Admission requirements:
BA/BS degree, min GPA 2.7 (reported avg 3.3)

Prereqs:
General Biology 6 credit hours
Physiology 6 credit hours
Biochemistry 3 credit hours
Organic Chemistry (with lab) 3 credit hours
Physiology 6 credit hours
Humanities elective 6 credit hours

Graduation rate for the Canadian school was in the mid to high 80% range. Employment rate was about the same. The brochure says the entire program is about 3,000 hours of classroom, 1,200 hours of clinical experience.

I thought the grading system was interesting:

Per cent grade Alpha grade Grade point
90 to 100 A+ 4.0
85 to 89 A 3.9
80 to 84 A- 3.7
77 to 79 B+ 3.3
73 to 76 B 3.0
70 to 72 B- 2.7
67 to 69 C+ 2.3
65 to 66 C 2.0
<65 F


Here is the curriculum:

First Year
ASM102 Asian Medicine 1 2.0
ASM103 Asian Medicine Point Location I 1.0
BAS120 Anatomy I 6.5
BAS121 Anatomy II 6.5
BAS103 Biochemistry 3.0
BAS108 Embryology 1.5
BAS115 Immunology 2.5
BAS118 Clinical Physiology I 2.0
BAS119 Clinical Physiology II 2.0
BOT101 Botanical Medicine I 2.5
CLE100 Clinic I 1.0
CPH101 Public Health 2.0
HOM100 Homeopathic Medicine I 2.0
NMS101 Ethics and Jurisprudence I 1.0
NPH101 Naturopathic History, Philosophy, Principles 2.0
NPH102 The Art and Practice of Naturopathic Medicine 2.0
NUT102 Clinical Nutrition I 3.0
PHM104 Massage/Hydrotherapy 2.0
PSY103 Health Psychology I 2.5
RES100 Principles in Research 2.0
TOTAL YEAR ONE 49.0


Second Year
ASM202 Asian Medicine II 2.0
ASM203 Asian Medicine Point Location II 1.0
ASM204 Asian Medicine Point Location III 1.0
BAS208 Pharmacology 5.0
BAS215 Microbiology I 2.0
BAS216 Microbiology II 2.0
BOT202 Botanical Medicine II 4.0
CLE201 Clinic II 1.0
CLS213 Clinical Medicine I 9.5
CLS214 Clinical Medicine II 9.5
CLS223 Physical and Clinical Diagnosis Practicum I 1.0
CLS224 Physical and Clinical Diagnosis Practicum II 1.040
FNM201 Foundations of Naturopathic Medicine 2.0
HOM204 Homeopathic Medicine II 3.0
HOM205 Homeopathic Medicine III 3.0
NUT203 Clinical Nutrition II 3.5
PHM201 Naturopathic Manipulation I 2.0
PSY203 Health Psychology II 1.5
TOTAL YEAR TWO 54.5


Third Year
ASM302* Asian Medicine III 3.0
ASM303* Asian Medicine III Clinical Applications 2.0
BOT302 Botanical Medicine III 6.0
CLE310 Clinic III 4.5
CLE303* Primary Care 3.0
CLS301 Maternal and Newborn Care 2.0
CLS302 Pediatrics 2.0
CLS304* Emergency Medicine 1.5
CLS306* Men's Health/Women's Health 5.0
HOM300 Homeopathic Medicine IV 5.0
NMS310 Practice Management I 2.0
NPH305 Integrated Therapeutics I 3.0
NPS315* In-Office Procedures 2.5
NUT302 Clinical Nutrition III 5.0
PHM301* Naturopathic Manipulation II 3.0
PHM332 Physical Medicine 4.0
PSY303 Health Psychology III 2.0
RAD302 Radiology and Advanced Imaging 2.0
TOTAL YEAR THREE (Pre-summer semester) 57.5


Third Year Summer Semester
CLE350 Clinic IV 17.5
NPH315 Integrated Therapeutics II 4.5
TOTAL SUMMER SEMESTER YEAR THREE 22.0


Fourth Year
CLE412 Clinic V 17.5
CLE450 Clinic VI 17.5
NMS401 Ethics and Jurisprudence II 1.0
NMS410 Practice Management II 1.0
NPS401 In-Office Procedures II 1.0
TOTAL YEAR FOUR 38.0

 

[drgioiadds]

For the lazy. All info is from http://www.ccnm.edu

Admission requirements:
BA/BS degree, min GPA 2.7 (reported avg 3.3)

Prereqs:
General Biology 6 credit hours
Physiology 6 credit hours
Biochemistry 3 credit hours
Organic Chemistry (with lab) 3 credit hours
Physiology 6 credit hours
Humanities elective 6 credit hours

Graduation rate for the Canadian school was in the mid to high 80% range. Employment rate was about the same. The brochure says the entire program is about 3,000 hours of classroom, 1,200 hours of clinical experience.

I thought the grading system was interesting:

Per cent grade Alpha grade Grade point
90 to 100 A+ 4.0
85 to 89 A 3.9
80 to 84 A- 3.7
77 to 79 B+ 3.3
73 to 76 B 3.0
70 to 72 B- 2.7
67 to 69 C+ 2.3
65 to 66 C 2.0
<65 F


Here is the curriculum:

First Year
ASM102 Asian Medicine 1 2.0
ASM103 Asian Medicine Point Location I 1.0
BAS120 Anatomy I 6.5
BAS121 Anatomy II 6.5
BAS103 Biochemistry 3.0
BAS108 Embryology 1.5
BAS115 Immunology 2.5
BAS118 Clinical Physiology I 2.0
BAS119 Clinical Physiology II 2.0
BOT101 Botanical Medicine I 2.5
CLE100 Clinic I 1.0
CPH101 Public Health 2.0
HOM100 Homeopathic Medicine I 2.0
NMS101 Ethics and Jurisprudence I 1.0
NPH101 Naturopathic History, Philosophy, Principles 2.0
NPH102 The Art and Practice of Naturopathic Medicine 2.0
NUT102 Clinical Nutrition I 3.0
PHM104 Massage/Hydrotherapy 2.0
PSY103 Health Psychology I 2.5
RES100 Principles in Research 2.0
TOTAL YEAR ONE 49.0


Second Year
ASM202 Asian Medicine II 2.0
ASM203 Asian Medicine Point Location II 1.0
ASM204 Asian Medicine Point Location III 1.0
BAS208 Pharmacology 5.0
BAS215 Microbiology I 2.0
BAS216 Microbiology II 2.0
BOT202 Botanical Medicine II 4.0
CLE201 Clinic II 1.0
CLS213 Clinical Medicine I 9.5
CLS214 Clinical Medicine II 9.5
CLS223 Physical and Clinical Diagnosis Practicum I 1.0
CLS224 Physical and Clinical Diagnosis Practicum II 1.040
FNM201 Foundations of Naturopathic Medicine 2.0
HOM204 Homeopathic Medicine II 3.0
HOM205 Homeopathic Medicine III 3.0
NUT203 Clinical Nutrition II 3.5
PHM201 Naturopathic Manipulation I 2.0
PSY203 Health Psychology II 1.5
TOTAL YEAR TWO 54.5


Third Year
ASM302* Asian Medicine III 3.0
ASM303* Asian Medicine III Clinical Applications 2.0
BOT302 Botanical Medicine III 6.0
CLE310 Clinic III 4.5
CLE303* Primary Care 3.0
CLS301 Maternal and Newborn Care 2.0
CLS302 Pediatrics 2.0
CLS304* Emergency Medicine 1.5
CLS306* Men's Health/Women's Health 5.0
HOM300 Homeopathic Medicine IV 5.0
NMS310 Practice Management I 2.0
NPH305 Integrated Therapeutics I 3.0
NPS315* In-Office Procedures 2.5
NUT302 Clinical Nutrition III 5.0
PHM301* Naturopathic Manipulation II 3.0
PHM332 Physical Medicine 4.0
PSY303 Health Psychology III 2.0
RAD302 Radiology and Advanced Imaging 2.0
TOTAL YEAR THREE (Pre-summer semester) 57.5


Third Year Summer Semester
CLE350 Clinic IV 17.5
NPH315 Integrated Therapeutics II 4.5
TOTAL SUMMER SEMESTER YEAR THREE 22.0


Fourth Year
CLE412 Clinic V 17.5
CLE450 Clinic VI 17.5
NMS401 Ethics and Jurisprudence II 1.0
NMS410 Practice Management II 1.0
NPS401 In-Office Procedures II 1.0
TOTAL YEAR FOUR 38.0

I can comment on the grading system since I did undergrad in Canada and Dental school in the US. Its honestly as hard to get an A in Canada as it is in the US. I found my undergrad basic science tests very difficult to get above 85, whereas the same courses in dental school an 85 meant you blew it. Its just the way the tests are designed. Very rarely were any of my undergrad courses curved whereas in dental school curving did occur a few times.

 

[munchymanRX]

I guess there's something out there called naturopathic medicine. People can actually become naturopathic doctors. They also claim to have a holistic view on medicine and focus primarily on primary care (sounds familiar?) Have you guys ever heard of this or seen an ND (as these guys claim to call themselves "doctors"). Cool thing is that they don't even have to take the mcats .

I think people are worried about the last two letters at the end of their name should think about being an ND, I mean some people will think its a typo and think it was meant to say MD hahahaha.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine

Read: Quack.

 

[sealsarecute]

As much as one may look down upon the naturopathic field, keep an open mind...there is definitely some credibility in their mission and research. I applied and was accepted into a naturopathic medical school, Bastyr University. It was an accredited, 4 year program and I had to fly to Seattle for the interview.

I was going to take the naturopathic physician route because I strongly believe in the preventative and nutrition aspects of medicine and don't think drugs are necessarily always the answer. However, I decided to decline my acceptance and take a few more classes in order to apply to osteopathic medical school. I had shadowed some naturopathic physicians in the Midwest (where I live) and found that the licensing of the profession here makes it difficult to see patients that aren't wealthy, middle-aged women, and to make a decent salary.

I have been accepted into a few osteopathic schools and plan on incorporating integrative medicine into my practice in the future. These naturopathic schools sometimes get a bad rep, but don't knock them unless you do your research on the accredited schools. They have been collaborating with highly regarded research universities and NIH to gain more funding to further research "alternative medicine" practices. 🙂

 

[costales]

Hey, if studying HERBS helps you get a HIGH score on the boards, go for it. 🙂

 

[munchymanRX]

fwiw, 'alternative' medicine that actually works is called 'medicine'.

 

[rafman]

Actually, thinking about it, the Canadian Naturapathic schools might be decent. I hear its very difficult to get into an MD school in Canada (harder than the US) and Canada has no DO schools. So maybe a lot of very good students who don't get a chance to go to an Canadian MD school might opt for a Naturapathic route, at least they will get to provide primary care services and prescribe drugs to patients.

 

[Druggernaut]

Actually, thinking about it, the Canadian Naturapathic schools might be decent. I hear its very difficult to get into an MD school in Canada (harder than the US) and Canada has no DO schools. So maybe a lot of very good students who don't get a chance to go to an Canadian MD school might opt for a Naturapathic route, at least they will get to provide primary care services and prescribe drugs to patients.

The caliber of the students doesn't matter. You could pass on Hopkins for an ND program, but it doesn't make your water therapy any more effective.

The AMA or AOA has some awareness page along the lines of "Who's Your Doctor" that sums up the length of training of a variety of different practitioners. The NDs certainly don't stack up to the MD/DO crowd, and I can't imagine someone who would consider MD/DO would be interested in ND. They exist, I'm sure, but it's still mind blowing.

 

[drgioiadds]

Actually, thinking about it, the Canadian Naturapathic schools might be decent. I hear its very difficult to get into an MD school in Canada (harder than the US) and Canada has no DO schools. So maybe a lot of very good students who don't get a chance to go to an Canadian MD school might opt for a Naturapathic route, at least they will get to provide primary care services and prescribe drugs to patients.

This is somewhat true. There are also credible US ND programs. The one I know basically works as a Family Physician would. In fact she has an osteopath working in her office and I believe she can get paid by OHIP (ontario health insurance plan).

DO's will become more popular in Canada now. Many Canadians are learning about the DO option and schools like KCUMB, AZCOM and MSU are very Canadian friendly.

Some Canadian MD schools are ridiculous to get into. My undergrad UWO, sets hard MCAT scores for each section. I think the cut off for verbal last year was an 11 and the writing sample an R!

 

[rafman]

This is somewhat true. There are also credible US ND programs. The one I know basically works as a Family Physician would. In fact she has an osteopath working in her office and I believe she can get paid by OHIP (ontario health insurance plan).

DO's will become more popular in Canada now. Many Canadians are learning about the DO option and schools like KCUMB, AZCOM and MSU are very Canadian friendly.

Some Canadian MD schools are ridiculous to get into. My undergrad UWO, sets hard MCAT scores for each section. I think the cut off for verbal last year was an 11 and the writing sample an R!

I hope DO's become popular in Canada soon! Maybe they'll open a DO school there within our lifetime lol. How are DO's currently perceived by Canadians?

 

[drctother]

I hope DO's become popular in Canada soon! Maybe they'll open a DO school there within our lifetime lol. How are DO's currently perceived by Canadians?

DOs arent perceived because they are unknown lol there is like 10 DOs all of Canada. Not many.

My grad class (2015) will easily double the DOs in canada if we can match lol

We have unlimited practicing rights in many provinces (at least the big ones where most people want to live), but no one has heard of them. Luckily we get thrown into same category as MDs

 

[AlabamaPop]

Without mentioning names, I'm quite disappointed in a lot of people in this forum. Why would you guys knock out the ND philosophy?

Even though I'm applying DO, I'm not discriminating against using natural products vs. synthetic products. As premeds/meds, we obviously know that many synthetic drugs have a base origin from natural plants or other natural resources. Who are we to look down at people who look at life from another perspective?

Obviously, being MD/DO is complete mainstream, and the world runs on the pharmaceutical business. Yes, there's plenty of support and evidence in pharmacology for curing/helping illnesses, but that's not always the be all/end all. Although, I'm no naturapathic expert, but I have enough common sense that maybe SOME of their practices may help in some ways, in conjunction with mainstream medicine, or even further in conjunction with psychological/spiritual/emotional professional support.

Honestly, when it comes to certain patients, sometimes synthetic medicine alone can only do so much, that maybe a little assistance from alternatives (whether ND, Psy.D, etc.) can really go a long way. We as humans are limited in knowledge, and who in the world would know what's the truth when it comes to the vast mystery of medical science? We can't act brainwashed by the majority.

People who is constantly saying "well there is no evidence that XYZ actually works." lol, well guess what? The government is not going to fund properly research that involves alternatives against the pharmaceutical business (and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I just have enough common sense to know how corporatism runs). And certain research that successfully work do get published, but either get bought out by the government, or gets shut down, because of legal loopholes that the Pharms find. It's all politics at the end of the day, and the media is very selective on what to educate the public on.

 

[dntke1518]

Without mentioning names, I'm quite disappointed in a lot of people in this forum. Why would you guys knock out the ND philosophy?

Even though I'm applying DO, I'm not discriminating against using natural products vs. synthetic products. As premeds/meds, we obviously know that many synthetic drugs have a base origin from natural plants or other natural resources. Who are we to look down at people who look at life from another perspective?

Obviously, being MD/DO is complete mainstream, and the world runs on the pharmaceutical business. Yes, there's plenty of support and evidence in pharmacology for curing/helping illnesses, but that's not always the be all/end all. Although, I'm no naturapathic expert, but I have enough common sense that maybe SOME of their practices may help in some ways, in conjunction with mainstream medicine, or even further in conjunction with psychological/spiritual/emotional professional support.

Honestly, when it comes to certain patients, sometimes synthetic medicine alone can only do so much, that maybe a little assistance from alternatives (whether ND, Psy.D, etc.) can really go a long way. We as humans are limited in knowledge, and who in the world would know what's the truth when it comes to the vast mystery of medical science? We can't act brainwashed by the majority.

People who is constantly saying "well there is no evidence that XYZ actually works." lol, well guess what? The government is not going to fund properly research that involves alternatives against the pharmaceutical business (and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I just have enough common sense to know how corporatism runs). And certain research that successfully work do get published, but either get bought out by the government, or gets shut down, because of legal loopholes that the Pharms find. It's all politics at the end of the day, and the media is very selective on what to educate the public on.

I agree with you that there doesn't need to be any bashing on the different perspectives of others, and also agree with your point on mainstream criticisms of alternative medicine. There are a few issues that I run into with this; one is that there is no residency following completion of the program. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a great deal of learning that occurs during residency with regards to treating patients and being able to utilize the information that you stuffed into your brain for the past couple of years. That being said, with practices that are not mainstream, I would feel that one would benefit from being able to actually watch the treatment of patients with set alternative practices. But in the grand scheme of things it is the patient’s choice to see whichever type of practitioner that they choose.

This discussion comes up year after year on these forums... I feel that there is much less bashing on this thread than there is on previous threads.

 

[Optoed]

As a future health provider, it's important to see the positives (in addition to negatives) that alternative medicine brings to the table. If you don't, your patients still will. It is becoming more of a mainstream trend (check out the book store section on alternative medicine or the trend of going "natural" - even for supplement use).
It is an age of consumerism. When several main stream therapies start to fail, ppl have easy and abundant access to other options. Wouldn't you? Just try to see things from your patient's perspective. The age of allopathic paternalism is long gone. As well, you can't discount the effect of persistent and clever marketing from the complementary and alternative medicine industry.

Here's a very well cited study from a multi-year study. It brings to light that 1 in every 3 Americans use complementary and alternative therapy! and yes, it's from Harvard and they have a research center dedicated to CAM.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/15712765?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

 

[rafman]

There's a documentary called 9000 Needles. Its about a stroke victim who goes to china for accupunture therapy after his insurance cuts him off. Def a must see!! Its very interesting and it shows that our modern western medicine needs to at least research more about eastern and alternative medicine

 

[GlimmerGlass]

I have a friend who is an ND and went to school in Seattle. Her undergrad was in nutritional science and she was a personal trainer before getting her ND. So the path makes perfect sense for her and she thoroughly enjoys her career and the education she received. She is a very intelligent person who could have easily been accepted to a MD or DO school if she wanted to but that was not what she was interested in.

I also shadowed a family practitioner who is a DO and who also practices integrative medicine and accupuncture. She is highly sought after because so few have this combination of skills to bring to the table when treating a patient. Her advice to me was to always increase your skillset to make yourself marketable because every patient is different and they all may prefer different treatment options. That is probably good advice in any field.

 

[drgioiadds]

I have a friend who is an ND and went to school in Seattle. Her undergrad was in nutritional science and she was a personal trainer before getting her ND. So the path makes perfect sense for her and she thoroughly enjoys her career and the education she received. She is a very intelligent person who could have easily been accepted to a MD or DO school if she wanted to but that was not what she was interested in.

I also shadowed a family practitioner who is a DO and who also practices integrative medicine and accupuncture. She is highly sought after because so few have this combination of skills to bring to the table when treating a patient. Her advice to me was to always increase your skillset to make yourself marketable because every patient is different and they all may prefer different treatment options. That is probably good advice in any field.

Totally agree!👍

 

[hmainn]

This type of medicine has been around for the longest. The rise of more modern medicine kind of took all the spotlight when things like penicillin were starting to come out. Now that people are looking for alternatives to modern med, things like osteopathy and naturopathy begin to gain interest.

If you honestly consider it, osteopathy has adjusted to fit the allopathic world. Naturopaths are in some ways more holistic in their approach. There are growing scientific studies on the power of some of these alternative approaches.
Check out a great site for alternative medicine (including osteopathy): http://nccam.nih.gov/

This is more Chinese med, but one thing I find very cool is that the nodes that acupuncture targets, are not based on anything anatomical like vessels, lymph nodes, nerves. Yet it has proven in many cases to work.

Some awesome stuff being researched these days in alternative medicine. I'd like to take time to learn acupuncture after I get licensed as a DO. That's if I'm not tired of school 😛

 

[NurWollen]

I have a friend who is an ND and went to school in Seattle. Her undergrad was in nutritional science and she was a personal trainer before getting her ND. So the path makes perfect sense for her and she thoroughly enjoys her career and the education she received. She is a very intelligent person who could have easily been accepted to a MD or DO school if she wanted to but that was not what she was interested in.

I also shadowed a family practitioner who is a DO and who also practices integrative medicine and accupuncture. She is highly sought after because so few have this combination of skills to bring to the table when treating a patient. Her advice to me was to always increase your skillset to make yourself marketable because every patient is different and they all may prefer different treatment options. That is probably good advice in any field.

Very true! 👍

 

[Nymphicus]

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/naturopathy.html

 

[Nymphicus]

and this one...apparently naturopathy has its own site dedicated to it...lol

http://www.naturowatch.org/

 

[Kalamazoo]

There is room to utilize both forms of treatment, but it's important to realize when it is appropriate to use which. Same goes with OMM. We're not going to cure cancer with it, but it can and does help some patients. Remember to keep an open mind guys. Many patients are going to want to try more natural forms of treatment so it will be important to advocate the use of modern/naturopathic treatments together so we don't push patients away.

 

[Spatula]

OMM is taught as a supplement.

Homeopathy, ect is taught as a replacement.

 

[DrCalculi]

Don't kid yourselves. People seeking herbal medicine/homeopathy/acupuncture will not go to an MD/DO. They will go to a Chinese medicine "doctor"/acupuncturist/naturopath. They won't be your patients anyway.

Steve Jobs 'regretted trying to beat cancer with alternative medicine for so long'

 

[Dr Curitas]

This is a wonderful thread. Great exchanges of opinions and resources. We live at an amazing time to witness changes in many disciplines especially in medicine. Many medicinal practices are discredited due to a lack of evidence based research to back up results including OMM and Chinese Medicine that ironically has been practiced for millenia. Allopathic medicine is a young one that has had an incredibly prolific history given its short life span, but there is still much to be understood about human physiology and the body's reponse to both "natural" and synthesized drugs.

I strongly believe that in the end it is important to keep the patient in mind. As physicians-to-be, we ought to be open-minded as many of you have already mentionned for it will be our task to be informed and respectful. Patients are now more proactive in their healthcare and in certain areas, such as the Californian Bay area where I reside, there is a growing interest in complementary treatments to prevent, treat and alleviate symptoms. As aforementioned, complementary medicinal treatments are indeed not meant to replace chemo and surgery among other more aggressive type of procedures.

 

[obbobbo]

I think that ND's have a lot to offer. The main thing I'd be concerned about is where to practice. If you are really intrigued by naturopathic medicine make sure you can practice where you want to. The Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges lists the states and provinces where you can practice. That list is found here: http://www.aanmc.org/naturopathic-medicine/naturopathic-medicine-faq.php#currently

 

[costales]

That list is found here: http://www.aanmc.org/naturopathic-medicine/naturopathic-medicine-faq.php#currently

That link says "Naturopathic medical students at accredited ND colleges study the same core medical sciences as MD students."

Fascinating claim, I must say.

 

[Starlightembers]

Without mentioning names, I'm quite disappointed in a lot of people in this forum. Why would you guys knock out the ND philosophy?

Even though I'm applying DO, I'm not discriminating against using natural products vs. synthetic products. As premeds/meds, we obviously know that many synthetic drugs have a base origin from natural plants or other natural resources. Who are we to look down at people who look at life from another perspective?

First, let me say that I grew up in a family who fully believed in and utilized alternative medicine -- in particular, traditional Chinese medicine -- and, as a result, am quite open to many of the treatments such practitioners can offer. When backed by research (if not into its effectiveness, at least into its safety) and in conjunction with traditional medicine, I think it can be a good thing and, if/when I get accepted into medical school, I will have no problem supporting patients' usage of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM).

On that note, I still take issue with so-called Naturopathic Doctors, NDs and these schools. I am sure some are highly intelligent, well-qualified practitioners and that many of their treatments do work (see personal experience above); however, what is taught varies greatly from school to school, there is not a strong basis in non-Naturopathic medicine (they are still seeing patients; they should have it), some states don't even require a degree for a person to refer to themselves as a Naturopathic Doctor and the safety and efficiency of many of these treatments have yet to be proven. That's not just bad medical practice -- it's dangerous.

Obviously, being MD/DO is complete mainstream, and the world runs on the pharmaceutical business. Yes, there's plenty of support and evidence in pharmacology for curing/helping illnesses, but that's not always the be all/end all. Although, I'm no naturapathic expert, but I have enough common sense that maybe SOME of their practices may help in some ways, in conjunction with mainstream medicine, or even further in conjunction with psychological/spiritual/emotional professional support.

I agree that medication is often not the end all/be all and that, for many patients, a non-pharmaceutical treatment approach would be best. Emotional health can not be empathized enough, either, as it is so intertwined with a person's physical health. In that way, CAM practitioners, nutritionists, social workers, psychologists, etc all have their place in a person's treatment. These are all things I agree with.

Yet, you said it yourself - some of what they do is likely to help. Nobody should blindly accept any treatment and/or practitioner and, yet, that is what it seems many NDs and ND-granting schools do.

Honestly, when it comes to certain patients, sometimes synthetic medicine alone can only do so much, that maybe a little assistance from alternatives (whether ND, Psy.D, etc.) can really go a long way. We as humans are limited in knowledge, and who in the world would know what's the truth when it comes to the vast mystery of medical science? We can't act brainwashed by the majority.

Interestingly enough, though MD/DO is what you referred to as mainstream, the majority of Americans -- including physicians -- now use CAM. One should be careful not to be brainwashed by the majority; but they should also be careful not to be swept up by the vocal minority. Approach everything with a critical eye. CAM treatments need to be held to the same evidence-based standards as pharmaceuticals and mainstream procedures are.

By the way, PsyDs are not CAM practitioners. They are psychologists, equivalent to someone with a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Furthermore, the treatments they utilize -- ex, different forms of therapy -- have all been studied and shown effective.

People who is constantly saying "well there is no evidence that XYZ actually works." lol, well guess what? The government is not going to fund properly research that involves alternatives against the pharmaceutical business (and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I just have enough common sense to know how corporatism runs). And certain research that successfully work do get published, but either get bought out by the government, or gets shut down, because of legal loopholes that the Pharms find. It's all politics at the end of the day, and the media is very selective on what to educate the public on.

This is false -- so, completely false. Not only is the government willing to fund it; but they have, in fact, set up an entire institute within the NIH solely dedicated to studying CAM.

>--Click <--
​

That site is actually a great resource, as well. It has information on a long list of different CAM treatments, including citations of and links to relevant research on any particular treatment. I think that you would be surprised how much has and is currently, being done; being done on both a privately funded and government funded level, as well.

Bottom line is this: If you want to incorporate NDs or CAM into any future patient's (good luck in the app cycle, by the way) treatment team/plan, make sure you do so very carefully. Research the qualifications of the practitioner and the safety and efficiency of the treatments they utilize. Be critical, just as one should when deciding if to prescribe/use any so-called mainstream treatment or therapy. If you do that, then the CAM should be an asset and positive in treatment.

Star

EDIT: By the way, just thought it would be interesting to add that both Brown and UPitt's medical schools (and possibly others) offer a scholarly concentration in Integrative Medicine.

http://www.brown.edu/academics/medical/education/concentrations/concentration-integrative-medicine
http://zone.medschool.pitt.edu/sites/programs/AOC/imaoc/default.aspx

 

[rafman]

First, let me say that I grew up in a family who fully believed in and utilized alternative medicine -- in particular, traditional Chinese medicine -- and, as a result, am quite open to many of the treatments such practitioners can offer. When backed by research (if not into its effectiveness, at least into its safety) and in conjunction with traditional medicine, I think it can be a good thing and, if/when I get accepted into medical school, I will have no problem supporting patients' usage of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM).

On that note, I still take issue with NDs and these schools. I am sure some are highly intelligent, well-qualified practitioners and that many of their treatments do work (see personal experience above); however, what is taught varies greatly from school to school, some states don't even require a degree for a person to refer to themselves as a Naturopathic Doctor and the safety and efficiency of many of their treatments have yet to be seen.





I agree that medication is often not the end all/be all and that, for many patients, a non-pharmaceutical treatment approach would be best. Emotional health can not be empathized enough, either, as it is so intertwined with a person's physical health. In that way, CAM practitioners, nutritionists, social workers, psychologists, etc all have their place in medicine. These are all things I agree with.

Yet, you said it yourself - some of what they do is likely to help. Nobody should blindly accept any treatment and/or practitioner and, yet, that is what it seems many NDs and ND-granting schools do. See above advice.



Interestingly enough, though MD/DO is what you referred to as mainstream, the majority of Americans -- including physicians -- now use CAM. One should be careful not to be brainwashed by the majority; but they should also be careful not to be swept up by the vocal minority. Approach everything with a critical eye. CAM treatments need to be held to the same evidence-based standards as pharmaceuticals and mainstream procedures are.

By the way, PsyDs are not CAM practitioners. They are psychologists, equivalent to someone with a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Furthermore, the treatments they utilize -- ex, different forms of therapy -- have all been studied and shown effective.



This is false -- so, completely false. Not only is the government willing to fund it; but they have, in fact, set up an entire institute within the NIH solely dedicated to studying CAM.

>--Click <--
​

That site is actually a great resource, as well. It has information on a long list of different CAM treatments, including citations of and links to relevant research on any particular treatment. I think that you would be surprised how much has, and is currently, being done; being done on both a privately funded and government funded level, as well.

Bottom line is this: If you want to incorporate NDs or CAM into any future patient's (good luck in the app cycle, by the way) treatment team/plan, make sure you do so very carefully. Research the qualifications of the practitioner and the safety and efficiency of the treatments they utilize. Be critical, just as one should when deciding if to prescribe/use any so-called mainstream treatment or therapy. If you do that, then the CAM should be an asset and positive in treatment.

Star

Good points, its important to research what's out there. .... but ew, you're in high school

 

[Starlightembers]

Good points, its important to research what's out there. .... but ew, you're in high school

I really need to update that. I'm in college now (sort of -- it's a complicated situation).

Though, I would add that I don't think one's age should greatly influence how you view the of soundness their of opinions. There are fifteen year olds with the maturity level of the average 23 year old and 23 year olds with the maturity of an average 15 year old.

 

[rafman]

Though, I would add that I don't think one's age should greatly influence how you view the of soundness their of opinions. There are fifteen year olds with the maturity level of the average 23 year old and 23 year olds with the maturity of an average 15 year old.

In general, you might be right. But in the SDN world, its a whole different story. HSDNers have a bad rep in these neck of the woods, IMO rightly so. I mean, high schoolers worrying about what med school they're going to go to, seems kind of neurotic. ONE STEP AT A TIME (however the same could be said about the people, including me, who recently got accepted but are worrying about what residency to go to/ and what to specialize in haha)

 

[Starlightembers]

In general, you might be right. But in the SDN world, its a whole different story. HSDNers have a bad rep in these neck of the woods, IMO rightly so. I mean, high schoolers worrying about what med school they're going to go to, seems kind of neurotic. ONE STEP AT A TIME (however the same could be said about the people, including me, who recently got accepted but are worrying about what residency to go to/ and what to specialize in haha)

I can understand that. Many high schoolers are immature or, at the very least, don't have a grasp on how things work/run. I just don't see myself as part of that group. Yes, I have very specific educational and career goals -- and, admittedly, can be a bit neurotic (who on SDN isn't?) -- but I also have more experiences, life wise, behind me than average high school/young college student. Certainly, I don't think that I know everything or have been through the worst life; but it is a very different background and perspective. I would hope that my previous post(s) show that, to whatever extent these things can be represented on an online message board. Basically, the only thing I ask -- both here and anywhere else -- is to be judged based on myself, not any group or category I belong in. I don't think that's an unfair request.

Congratulations on the acceptance, by the way. I wish you all the luck.

 

[poopyhead]

In general, you might be right. But in the SDN world, its a whole different story. HSDNers have a bad rep in these neck of the woods, IMO rightly so. I mean, high schoolers worrying about what med school they're going to go to, seems kind of neurotic. ONE STEP AT A TIME (however the same could be said about the people, including me, who recently got accepted but are worrying about what residency to go to/ and what to specialize in haha)

I would like to chime in here that physicians from many parts of the world start training right out of high school. In many instances, acceptance is based purely on standardized test scores.

 

[Dr Curitas]

First, let me say that I grew up in a family who fully believed in and utilized alternative medicine -- in particular, traditional Chinese medicine -- and, as a result, am quite open to many of the treatments such practitioners can offer. When backed by research (if not into its effectiveness, at least into its safety) and in conjunction with traditional medicine, I think it can be a good thing and, if/when I get accepted into medical school, I will have no problem supporting patients' usage of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM).

On that note, I still take issue with so-called Naturopathic Doctors, NDs and these schools. I am sure some are highly intelligent, well-qualified practitioners and that many of their treatments do work (see personal experience above); however, what is taught varies greatly from school to school, there is not a strong basis in non-Naturopathic medicine (they are still seeing patients; they should have it), some states don't even require a degree for a person to refer to themselves as a Naturopathic Doctor and the safety and efficiency of many of these treatments have yet to be proven. That's not just bad medical practice -- it's dangerous.

I agree that medication is often not the end all/be all and that, for many patients, a non-pharmaceutical treatment approach would be best. Emotional health can not be empathized enough, either, as it is so intertwined with a person's physical health. In that way, CAM practitioners, nutritionists, social workers, psychologists, etc all have their place in a person's treatment. These are all things I agree with.

Yet, you said it yourself - some of what they do is likely to help. Nobody should blindly accept any treatment and/or practitioner and, yet, that is what it seems many NDs and ND-granting schools do.

Interestingly enough, though MD/DO is what you referred to as mainstream, the majority of Americans -- including physicians -- now use CAM. One should be careful not to be brainwashed by the majority; but they should also be careful not to be swept up by the vocal minority. Approach everything with a critical eye. CAM treatments need to be held to the same evidence-based standards as pharmaceuticals and mainstream procedures are.

By the way, PsyDs are not CAM practitioners. They are psychologists, equivalent to someone with a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Furthermore, the treatments they utilize -- ex, different forms of therapy -- have all been studied and shown effective.

This is false -- so, completely false. Not only is the government willing to fund it; but they have, in fact, set up an entire institute within the NIH solely dedicated to studying CAM.

>--Click <--​

That site is actually a great resource, as well. It has information on a long list of different CAM treatments, including citations of and links to relevant research on any particular treatment. I think that you would be surprised how much has and is currently, being done; being done on both a privately funded and government funded level, as well.

Bottom line is this: If you want to incorporate NDs or CAM into any future patient's (good luck in the app cycle, by the way) treatment team/plan, make sure you do so very carefully. Research the qualifications of the practitioner and the safety and efficiency of the treatments they utilize. Be critical, just as one should when deciding if to prescribe/use any so-called mainstream treatment or therapy. If you do that, then the CAM should be an asset and positive in treatment.

Star

EDIT: By the way, just thought it would be interesting to add that both Brown and UPitt's medical schools (and possibly others) offer a scholarly concentration in Integrative Medicine.

http://www.brown.edu/academics/medical/education/concentrations/concentration-integrative-medicine
http://zone.medschool.pitt.edu/sites/programs/AOC/imaoc/default.aspx

Thanks for the input.
You're right the NIH several years ago provided grants to school to implement more evidence based reserach on CAM and Georgetown offers a Masters in CAM!

 

[Futureofyourtv]

I see nothing wrong with having MDs/DOs working with NDs. We all can bring something to the table. Now, do i think an herb is going to put your arm back together if you find yourself in a major car accident? Probably not. However, there is SOME promise in SOME areas of complementary medicine. Btw, I don't know about you guys but I know A LOT of people who refuse to see "mainstream" docs nowadays. Why? They believe mainstream docs are corrupt and simply want to drug them up. The problem with this is that patients can misinterpret the abilitilies of a said herb or supplement. They can harm themselves unintentionally. At least if we are aware of these herbs and supplements we can work with our patients.
On another note I would like to say something. In my city of Philly, there was a known naturopathic doc by the name of Dr. Frank E. Wyatt. It is claimed that he has helped a lot of people who "conventional medicine" gave up on. Dr. Wyatt passed away in June of this year due to natural causes. He was 56 years old....rather young to be passing away of natural causes??
My point is none of us know all of the answers. We each can bring something to the table. I would like to see all healthcare professionals working as a team. Or maybe I'm just a dreamer

 

[Starlightembers]

Thanks for the input.
You're right the NIH several years ago provided grants to school to implement more evidence based reserach on CAM and Georgetown offers a Masters in CAM!

I just looked up the Georgetown program.

I think it's great; their curriculum is exactly what a degree in CAM should cover. It has courses on evidence based medicine, literature review/analysis, ethics, research design/implementation and, despite being an MS, actually seems to cover more hard sciences (numerous courses on pharmacology, biochemistry, physiology, endocrinology, etc, both as they apply to human biology and medicine as a whole and in relation to CAM). Most importantly, though the program is obviously supportive of CAM treatments, it also seems focused on objectivity and research backed practices (which is my only problem with a lot of CAM practitioners: they seem adverse to this. A lot of them want patients to blindly accept their treatments, without a care if they work and/or are safe or not). Especially when combined with an MD, I think this program could definitely lead the way in shaping how the field moves forward - which, hopefully, will be with full integration with more mainstream medical practices (and vice versa).

Futureofyourtv: There is nothing inherently wrong with an MD/DOs working with NDs and other CAM practitioners, they simply must do so with a critical eye. As I stated previously, there is not a lot of universally accepted standards for these programs (in some states, one can call themselves a Naturopathic Doctor without any degree) and, more concerning, a lot of the treatments they use have not been proven safe. CAM definitely has its merits; however, when involving it, one must both check the qualifications of the practitioner and the evidence (especially as it relates to safety) behind the treatments they are utilizing. A lot of it can be really helpful, without a doubt -- one must just be careful to avoid the quackery mixed among that.


Bottom line: Working as a team is great; but patient safety must come first.

My two favorite sources for info on CAM (the NIH and Mayo): http://www.nccam.nih.gov/health/atoz.htm, http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DrugHerbIndex