Have you reconsidered?

  • I've decided to go an alternate route instead

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • I've strongly reconsidered but am still on the fence

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • I'm apprehensive, but I love PT

    Votes: 10 24.4%
  • I'm not worried. All healthcare jobs have this "uncertain feeling" these days

    Votes: 25 61.0%

  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
Aug 6, 2009
35
0
0
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
Has "Obamacare" made you reconsider your profession? Have you thought strongly about not going to PT school anymore?

This is intended to be a seperate discussion from the other Obamacare thread. I'm curious where we stand as students and professionals.
 
Sep 8, 2009
103
0
0
Virginia
Status
Rehab Sci Student
I voted in the category that might as well say "ALL jobs have a feeling of uncertainty nowadays." There are a lot of intelligent conversations going on in this mb about the changing tide in healthcare, but I am going with the cliched and perhaps ignorant sounding response that I got into to this for my sheer enjoyment to get up everyday and make a difference in other's lives. No matter what, I was going to be in debt from school, so I try not to let that even get to me. To think, I would be getting my Master's right now and prob. end up in some sort of social work position- now you're talking insecurity and utter disappointment with my scholastic endeavors and the debt incurred. I remember last semester in my physics class, a girl asked me what I was taking the pre-req for. I replied "for pt." She replied "I was going to go into that, but my sister told me that if you don't work in a hospital and churn out patients like a factory, you have no chance at making any real money, so I chose not to go into it." My thoughts were "with that mentality, thank GOD, your sister's done us all a favor!" Long-winded point being that I'm pretty much choosing not to focus on it past a certain extent.
 
Last edited:

Lizarde

10+ Year Member
Jan 30, 2009
105
3
0
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
I voted: not worried. I'm honestly not concerned about finding a job after graduation that will provide adequate compensation - home health looks promising at the moment. However, I do have a back up plan. I've been teaching Pilates for five years and have had no trouble finding clients willing to pay me $60+/hr for private training. (As a PT tech, I've also seen patients cancel appointments when they realize their copay is $40-$70). I'll start a Pilates/ Pilates-based PT studio or some type of integrative health business... Yes, I know starting a small business costs a lot of money and is financially risky but hey, that's why it's the backup plan.
 

DancerFutureDPT

Academic Administrator
Moderator
7+ Year Member
Jun 9, 2009
843
17
251
Chicago suburbs
Status
Academic Administration
I voted: not worried. I'm honestly not concerned about finding a job after graduation that will provide adequate compensation - home health looks promising at the moment. However, I do have a back up plan. I've been teaching Pilates for five years and have had no trouble finding clients willing to pay me $60+/hr for private training. (As a PT tech, I've also seen patients cancel appointments when they realize their copay is $40-$70). I'll start a Pilates/ Pilates-based PT studio or some type of integrative health business... Yes, I know starting a small business costs a lot of money and is financially risky but hey, that's why it's the backup plan.
I actually really want to start my own clinic too - PT, massage, pilates/yoga, personal training, nutrition, etc. I feel like the climate is really going toward the whole body approach. Hell, maybe I'll hire a D.O. too :)
 

MuscleHead

10+ Year Member
Feb 13, 2009
207
2
0
Ambler, PA
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
I actually really want to start my own clinic too - PT, massage, pilates/yoga, personal training, nutrition, etc. I feel like the climate is really going toward the whole body approach. Hell, maybe I'll hire a D.O. too :)
this is exactly what i want to do....with sports performance in there as well.
 
Jun 22, 2009
67
0
0
Chicago, IL
Status
Rehab Sci Student
i'm apprehensive but I think we all need a healthy amount of apprehension in life. I love pt and know its what I want to do. I cannot imagine a world where the profession is so dramatically destroyed by healthcare reform that it would change my desire to go into it.

Injury recovery is greatly facilitated by PT. We just need to continue to push for evidence based practice to prove it.
 
Sep 8, 2009
103
0
0
Virginia
Status
Rehab Sci Student
Not trying to hijack the thread, but DancerFuturedDPT and MuscleHead- I'm in the same boat, but more of a focus on blending massage therapy with pt and nutrition. My fiance is a massage therapist, and as a young buck, I was a produce manager for an organic grocery store. I think that's what spawned me on the ideology of a holistic approach to healing and was able to learn from local farmers/therapists/etc. how important blending everything together for a stronger impact. Even better when under one roof where a closer relationship can be had b/t therapists and patients. Once society reels in more of these benefits and they become more tangible to the average consumer/patient, I think the sky's the limit, especially when open-access is the norm.
 

MinnDasota

10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2008
446
0
0
NYC
Status
DPT / OTD
My practice actually does all of the above (hence why we have coined "human performance experts" into our logo) PT with massage, nutrition, sport performance, etc. It is a good model and I think is a model for most up and coming practices.

To bring in Obama's take on healthcare, I think he believes in preventative care which is what all of the above, put together, can do.

All of healthcare will be affected with the changes, some good, some bad. So why change career paths within the healthcare field if you have a passion for PT?
 

MuscleHead

10+ Year Member
Feb 13, 2009
207
2
0
Ambler, PA
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
My practice actually does all of the above (hence why we have coined "human performance experts" into our logo) PT with massage, nutrition, sport performance, etc. It is a good model and I think is a model for most up and coming practices.

To bring in Obama's take on healthcare, I think he believes in preventative care which is what all of the above, put together, can do.

All of healthcare will be affected with the changes, some good, some bad. So why change career paths within the healthcare field if you have a passion for PT?
theres downsides to every career anyway. pick another career, and tell me there arent signficantly worse things to worry about:

law: good luck getting a job/more expensive loans/top 5% get the money maker jobs
medicine: extremely expensive/long residency/on call hours/possibly lower salaries like PT
pharmacy: boring/same issues with med/pt
nursing: market is becoming overly saturated with nurses bc its a quick fix
"business"/finance: boring/few like their jobs/meaningless work
teaching: next to impossible to get a position at a decent school district/market is flooded with teachers

the list goes on. just stick with what you like. anyone ever tell you, things always work out for the best? if you just stick to your path and work hard at it, i dont see any reason why you cant succeed in PT.
 

Buckeye4life

DO, MPT
10+ Year Member
Nov 4, 2006
460
3
241
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Oct 4, 2009
10
0
0
Status
Rehab Sci Student
Not concerned at all. There is always some apprehension and uncertainty when taking a big step towards a specific career. I think that health care reform (although somewhat lacking, but they can always build on it down the road when people become more attuned to what it actually does) will do great things for the health of our nation. Meaning, for PT's, access to not only more patients, but a wider variety of patients. Worrying about compensation has nothing to do with recent health care reform; those who are reconsidering their profession because of pay were bound to do it at some point anyway.

For those wishing to start their own clinic eventually, best of luck! I don't think I could take that risk, but it is refreshing to see that there is some entrepreneurial spirit amongst our generation of PT students.
 

lee9786

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Feb 3, 2009
616
9
141
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
My practice actually does all of the above (hence why we have coined "human performance experts" into our logo) PT with massage, nutrition, sport performance, etc. It is a good model and I think is a model for most up and coming practices.

To bring in Obama's take on healthcare, I think he believes in preventative care which is what all of the above, put together, can do.

All of healthcare will be affected with the changes, some good, some bad. So why change career paths within the healthcare field if you have a passion for PT?
What is the current PT business model for preventative care? Considering massage, isn't PT supposed to moving away from this due to the progression towards EBP?
 

lee9786

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Feb 3, 2009
616
9
141
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
Not concerned at all. There is always some apprehension and uncertainty when taking a big step towards a specific career. I think that health care reform (although somewhat lacking, but they can always build on it down the road when people become more attuned to what it actually does) will do great things for the health of our nation. Meaning, for PT's, access to not only more patients, but a wider variety of patients. Worrying about compensation has nothing to do with recent health care reform; those who are reconsidering their profession because of pay were bound to do it at some point anyway.

For those wishing to start their own clinic eventually, best of luck! I don't think I could take that risk, but it is refreshing to see that there is some entrepreneurial spirit amongst our generation of PT students.
I like the entrepreneurial spirit as well. Have you noticed the recent trends in private practice in outpatient orthopedic settings? The business model is becoming impossible to sustain.

Regarding pay, is PT a service that could succeed in a cash-for-service model? The history of PT has been dependent upon third-party reimbursement. Another trend is that co-pays have been going up. The result is less people showing up for PT treatment. If nobody shows up you don't get paid.

Another concept to think about with this dependence on third-party payers is inflation. This is a very real concept which is right around the corner. History has shown that medicare reimbursement rates have not increased with inflation over the past ten years. Now there is talk of hyperinflation with all the printing/borrowing our government is doing. What does hyperinflation mean for the PT income potential? That $75 evaluation has less and less value exponentially less with time. Meanwhile the costs of goods around you rise. The inability to obtain revenue from the free market will impede your salary. Considering Americans will have little discretionary income, they will be forced to not spend money on ancillary services such as PT for their injury and pain. They will have to save it for medical services which will take priority.

I love the idea of PT as well but it looks as if this little dream might be slipping away. I've been resistant to change, but from what I see this country is going to be in a world of hurt the next twenty years or so. The youth in this country will be burdened with high taxes and little discretionary income. The value of their savings will diminish due to the oversupply of currency. Our government has done a wonderful job making a mess of things. I'm thinking it might just be a good idea to invest into a career that I could translate to a different country.
 
Last edited:

MinnDasota

10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2008
446
0
0
NYC
Status
DPT / OTD
What is the current PT business model for preventative care? Considering massage, isn't PT supposed to moving away from this due to the progression towards EBP?
There is growing evidence behind the benefits of medical massage therapy as an adjunct to PT...that's why those of us practicing PT use it and sometimes refer to those that are specialized in it. Soft tissue can create dysfunction so there is benefit if it is utilized correctly. It is very useful as an adjunct to modalities, neuromuscular re-ed, and therapeutic exercise.

Here's some research for you:

http://ecmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/162/13/1815
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/130/1/3/

Finally: here is a little bit about medical massage therapy if you are confused as to what it is:
http://www.mmpa.us/faq.htm
 

lee9786

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Feb 3, 2009
616
9
141
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
There is growing evidence behind the benefits of medical massage therapy as an adjunct to PT...that's why those of us practicing PT use it and sometimes refer to those that are specialized in it. Soft tissue can create dysfunction so there is benefit if it is utilized correctly. It is very useful as an adjunct to modalities, neuromuscular re-ed, and therapeutic exercise.

Here's some research for you:

http://ecmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/162/13/1815
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/130/1/3/

Finally: here is a little bit about medical massage therapy if you are confused as to what it is:
http://www.mmpa.us/faq.htm
Thank you for taking the time to provide the links.
 

Buckeye4life

DO, MPT
10+ Year Member
Nov 4, 2006
460
3
241
Status
Resident [Any Field]
you doctors are really insecure.
Please tell me how predicting the almost impossible logistics of hiring a physician by a PT owned clinic and the complete awkwardness of this business relationship makes me insecure.
 

MuscleHead

10+ Year Member
Feb 13, 2009
207
2
0
Ambler, PA
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
Please tell me how predicting the almost impossible logistics of hiring a physician by a PT owned clinic and the complete awkwardness of this business relationship makes me insecure.
first off, i agree, it wouldnt happen. i just find it interesting, that every time i see a DO or MD student post in this forum, its predominately to establish your professional superiority. i dont see any reason why you even post here.
 

MotionDoc

PT/PhD
Oct 29, 2009
151
0
0
Status
Rehab Sci Student
I know several PTs that own medical practices...

A guy who never went to college can own a medical practice or a PT practice...entrepreneurship my friend: the degrees mean nothing when it comes to this.
 

Buckeye4life

DO, MPT
10+ Year Member
Nov 4, 2006
460
3
241
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Well, I don't post very often and when I do it is because I am still interested in the PT world considering I'm a licensed therapist. My original statement was sarcastic because it tends to feed into the already growing problem of mid-levels trying to gain equal footing with physicians with their levels of authority and scope.

Motiondoc: anything else?
 

MotionDoc

PT/PhD
Oct 29, 2009
151
0
0
Status
Rehab Sci Student
Benchmadebali: so you contend that physicians went to med school so they can own their own practices? my bad...i was always under the impression that they went to med school so they could practice medicine...

Buckeye4life: did you ask me a question?

In general, a business savvy college drop out can own and run a law firm, medical practice, engineering firm, what have you. Are you saying they can't? Just cause they own and employ various professionals doesn't mean they actually practice those things...it sounds like you are saying that an MD is too smart to work for a non-MD? No one even mentioned scope of practice until you did...the original statement was directed to the physical ownership of a practice that employed a wide range of practitioners.
 

MuscleHead

10+ Year Member
Feb 13, 2009
207
2
0
Ambler, PA
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
Well, I don't post very often and when I do it is because I am still interested in the PT world considering I'm a licensed therapist. My original statement was sarcastic because it tends to feed into the already growing problem of mid-levels trying to gain equal footing with physicians with their levels of authority and scope.

Motiondoc: anything else?
how would you like it if MD's constantly ran around shi**ting on you because you couldnt hack it into an MD program? i really dont think many PTs are out there acting like they're on the same level as physicians. those that are, are probably not very good at their job. that said, there is not an appropriate level of respect out there for PTs coming from physicians. PT's are still largely viewed as like "physician/rehab techs" when in fact they are very well educated and highly trained.
 

Buckeye4life

DO, MPT
10+ Year Member
Nov 4, 2006
460
3
241
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Musclehead: I am well aware of how PTs are viewed by physicians and it is not the way you described. As I told you, I have a license in PT. I will concede that physicians don't realize what kind of training PTs go through because therapy is not covered much in medical school. Why don't you first get through school, practice as a therapist who actually has a working relationship with Drs, and then start telling me like it is.

Motiondoc: Name one of these savvy dropouts. I bet tons of professionals are gonna be flockin' to join these hypothetical practices.
 

MotionDoc

PT/PhD
Oct 29, 2009
151
0
0
Status
Rehab Sci Student
Motiondoc: Name one of these savvy dropouts. I bet tons of professionals are gonna be flockin' to join these hypothetical practices.
First, I apologize for hijacking this thread...

Let me back up a little. I did a little more digging, and it is true that non-physicians (in most cases) cannot employ physicians as it opens up the opportunity for interfering in the delivery of medicine. But, this does not stop hospitals or industrial firms, who are manned by non-physicians, from doing so. Apparently there are wide open loop holes to various legislation. At the same time, there are legal battles currently going on all over the country that aim to prevent physician owned-PT practices...much for the same reason (several states already prohibit it). I would be interested to hear your perspective of this Buckeye4life...the AMA's argument against this (aside from the obvious capital loss) is that they are worried that patients won't receive optimal physical therapy care without the direct supervision of a physician. The APTA's response is that, in a medically-stable patient, physical therapists are the best practitioners to determine a patient's PT plan of care.

Now, I personally know of several non-physician owned medical practices (which provide a wide range of services) that employ physicians...but, I cannot presume to know the terminology of their contract agreements...in any case, these arrangements do exists...MONEY and OPPORTUNITY pay.

Also, general business principles DO apply to engineering, law, etc. firms...do your own google search for examples...
 
Last edited:

MuscleHead

10+ Year Member
Feb 13, 2009
207
2
0
Ambler, PA
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
First, I apologize for hijacking this thread...

Let me back up a little. I did a little more digging, and it is true that non-physicians (in most cases) cannot employ physicians as it opens up the opportunity for interfering in the delivery of medicine. But, this does not stop hospitals or industrial firms, who are manned by non-physicians, from doing so. Apparently there are wide open loop holes to various legislation. At the same time, there are legal battles currently going on all over the country that aim to prevent physician owned-PT practices...much for the same reason (several states already prohibit it). I would be interested to hear your perspective of this Buckeye4life...the AMA's argument against this (aside from the obvious capital loss) is that they are worried that patients won't receive optimal physical therapy care without the direct supervision of a physician. The APTA's response is that, in a medically-stable patient, physical therapists are the best practitioners to determine a patient's PT plan of care.

Now, I personally know of several non-physician owned medical practices (which provide a wide range of services) that employ physicians...but, I cannot presume to know the terminology of their contract agreements...in any case, these arrangements do exists...MONEY and OPPORTUNITY pay.

Also, general business principles DO apply to engineering, law, etc. firms...do your own google search for examples...
that may be the AMA's argument on paper, but its really just about the money. its less money in the pockets of dr.'s
 

lee9786

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Feb 3, 2009
616
9
141
Status
Pre-Rehab Sci [General]
Musclehead: I am well aware of how PTs are viewed by physicians and it is not the way you described. As I told you, I have a license in PT. I will concede that physicians don't realize what kind of training PTs go through because therapy is not covered much in medical school. Why don't you first get through school, practice as a therapist who actually has a working relationship with Drs, and then start telling me like it is.

Motiondoc: Name one of these savvy dropouts. I bet tons of professionals are gonna be flockin' to join these hypothetical practices.
Hopefully this ignorance of the profession from physicians decreases as the PT degree evolves. POPTS are one of the biggest threats to the profession. It's not the other way around. Now who knows for the future, but yeah there will most likely be some laws somewhere prohibiting a PT clinic from hiring an MD. I really don't see it happening any time soon.

Getting rid of the POPTS should be one of the main priorities of this profession. Of course right now there are bigger external issues such as decreasing reimbursement and medicare caps elimination. There is also the internal threats of the profession such as nonutilization of EBP, doing what can be billed as opposed to what works, overutilization of PTAs/Aides which devalue the professional degree.

Unfortunately this healthcare reform seems to be a progression towards single payer, government insurance. Maybe I'm wrong, but if this is the case, it will all be like Medicare. My problem with Medicare is there isn't that external incentive to be the best at what you do. I would have liked to see more emphasis on allowing the markets to decide, but sadly it looks as if its going the other way. So your rewarded more on what reimbursement you bring in and not how good of a job you do. I think this breeds mediocrity and will result in expensive, inefficient, and mediocre care. This will be true for all health professions. Who knows maybe I'm wrong, but it seems as if the writing is on the wall.

Man it seems I'm so doom and gloom anymore. Is this pessimism or realism though?