Having A Beard

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DR Kufi

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Hello,
I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any bias in terms of obtaining a residency f one keeps a beard. I keep one for religious purposes and wanted to get a sense of what PD's and residents feel toward Bearded candidates. I know there are entire face masks one can wear when scrubbed in the OR and it does'nt cause contamination etc. Can someone please elaborate on this matter please.
Sincerely,
Dr. Kufi
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While most surgical candidates are clean shaven, since you wear a beard for religious reasons I doubt it would be a problem. Its not like you're a dirty hippy or sumthin.

You can easily cover it in the OR or when you need to be sterile; I've known a few surgeons, GI, IR guys who are beared for religious reasons and they seem to get along fine.
 
Thank You WS,
I was worried about that because I really want to be a surgeon and did not want to compromise my appearance. And no Its not kept in a "hippie"/disheveled style.
Sincerely,
Kufi
 
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DR Kufi said:
Thank You WS,
I was worried about that because I really want to be a surgeon and did not want to compromise my appearance. And no Its not kept in a "hippie"/disheveled style.
Sincerely,
Kufi
Click to expand...

As long as it is kept clean and tidy, you shouldn't have a problem.
 
DR Kufi said:
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any bias in terms of obtaining a residency f one keeps a beard. I keep one for religious purposes and wanted to get a sense of what PD's and residents feel toward Bearded candidates. I know there are entire face masks one can wear when scrubbed in the OR and it does'nt cause contamination etc. Can someone please elaborate on this matter please.
Sincerely,
Dr. Kufi
Click to expand...
I was tired when I wrote this... When I get tired, I get angry.
 
Cheisu said:
You keep a beard for religious purposes? Are you kidding me?

Please, don't go into medicine. If your religion won't let you shave your face, that doesn't get you extra privilege of having one, if it's frowned upon wherever you work. I don't know what exactly constitutes a religious beard, but I'm guessing it's excessively large, and won't be sanitary or fit under a scrub mask, or it will just look very unprofessional.

I kid you not. At the hospital I volunteer at, in the cafeteria, this guy has one of those long goatees that jut out, and he has to wear plastic covering over his chin (I am dead serious. I kid you not)
Click to expand...

Please don't go into medicine, yourself, if you're so narrow minded that you can't fathom a faith might dictate personal attributes.
 
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Cheisu said:
You keep a beard for religious purposes? Are you kidding me?

Please, don't go into medicine. If your religion won't let you shave your face, that doesn't get you extra privilege of having one, if it's frowned upon wherever you work. I don't know what exactly constitutes a religious beard, but I'm guessing it's excessively large, and won't be sanitary or fit under a scrub mask, or it will just look very unprofessional.

I kid you not. At the hospital I volunteer at, in the cafeteria, this guy has one of those long goatees that jut out, and he has to wear plastic covering over his chin (I am dead serious. I kid you not)
Click to expand...

Are you seriously an idiot? People come in all different sizes, colors, shapes, religions etc. These different people make up some of the brightest doctors in the medical community. I've seen a neurosurgeon with a beard at the hospital I am currently rotating at, and he is known to be one of the brightest surgeons out there. People give him his respect based on his skill and knowledge, not his personal decisions for keeping a beard. All he has to do is wear an extra surgical mask for his beard when operating..big deal.
And by the way, your profile says your 16 and you want to be a surgeon? Shouldn't you be outside participating in some sort of high school sport, hanging out with friends, making out with your girlfriend, instead of staying on studentdoctor criticizing a doctor about his appearance?

just my 2 cents
 
Religious intolerance is not welcome at SDN nor in the surgery forums. As others have noted, good surgeons come in all races, creeds, genders and physical appearances, none of which dictate their skills, knowledge or ability to function well in their environment.

Further such comments reflecting such ignorance will result in administrative action.
 
Dr.Kufi,

I admire your courage and adherence to the sunna, and I hope God rewards you for that. I am sure you know that there are PDs who also think like the posters above, and who will be biased. You would think that MDs who reach such a high acedemic status would be more enlightened....the truth is very surprizing. The thing is at this time in political history it seems OK to make fun of a certain specific religion and group. It seems fair to attack that certain religion and people, but it is absolutely unacceptable to touch the other faiths and races. But it is understandable (in this day and age). I just hope you are not a IMG with average scores, because that will definately be a uphill battle. Anyways, there is not much you can do except for prayer and saber. Good Luck.
 
Leukocyte said:
Dr.Kufi,

I admire your courage and adherence to the sunna, and I hope God rewards you for that. I am sure you know that there are PDs who also think like the posters above, and who will be biased. You would think that MDs who reach such a high acedemic status would be more enlightened....the truth is very surprizing. The thing is at this time in political history it seems OK to make fun of a certain specific religion and group. It seems fair to attack that certain religion and people, but it is absolutely unacceptable to touch the other faiths and races. But it is understandable (in this day and age). I just hope you are not a IMG with average scores, because that will definately be a uphill battle. Anyways, there is not much you can do except for prayer and saber. Good Luck.
Click to expand...

Lest there be some confusion: the only poster above who said it would be a problem is a self-described 16 year old from Indiana, neither of which are well known fonts of tolerance and understanding.

There may be some bias but let us not use the poster here as evidence of that.
 
Cheisu's comment suprises me from someone who considers himself a Wiccan. I thought beards were actually part of the Wiccan style.
 
eclcell said:
Cheisu's comment suprises me from someone who considers himself a Wiccan. I thought beards were actually part of the Wiccan style.
Click to expand...

Yes, but you forgot one thing. Cheisu has the emotional IQ of an aborted hyena fetus. I've been to that area many times. I remember being jealous of all the cool stuff the Avon school system had (facilities, teachers, etc.). One thing it lacks is significant diversity, which becomes the breeding ground of ignorance such as the above posted. I don't know why I am even posting in response, since I just tend to browse through, but that blatant intolerance really did bother me a bit. Even though it came from a 16 yearold (I'm not much better) it does bring up some interesting questions I suppose...
 
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I work with residents and attendings who have beards--some for religious reasons and some just because they like it. It is not a problem.

If there was a program or PD that considered not hiring you because of facial hair, you would probably be better off not going there anyway, as who would want to work with those people?!?
 
Cheisu said:
You keep a beard for religious purposes? Are you kidding me?

Please, don't go into medicine. If your religion won't let you shave your face, that doesn't get you extra privilege of having one, if it's frowned upon wherever you work. I don't know what exactly constitutes a religious beard, but I'm guessing it's excessively large, and won't be sanitary or fit under a scrub mask, or it will just look very unprofessional.

I kid you not. At the hospital I volunteer at, in the cafeteria, this guy has one of those long goatees that jut out, and he has to wear plastic covering over his chin (I am dead serious. I kid you not)
Click to expand...

Wow. I was expecting some admitted sarcasm at the end of this post. The bolded part is especially funny...a high schooler telling that to someone already in medicine. :sleep: Your age may be an excuse for your ignorance but not for your rude manner.
 
Also leukocyte, Kufi might belong to any number of religions, not necessarily Sunni Islam. Sikhs, Orthodox Jews, Amish, Mennonites, and others all require men to wear a beard. In my hospital all have been welcomed and accommodated without a problem.

Cheisu is one of those kids that is drawn to surgery because it's an acceptable sublimation for his urges to mutilate animals. You know, the guy who lives on the street where all the cats keep going missing. A a PP noted, if it were possible to rate emotional intelligence in the negatives, he'd earn it. For some reason he thinks talking/thinking as he does is surgical and will win brownie points here.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Lest there be some confusion: the only poster above who said it would be a problem is a self-described 16 year old ...
Click to expand...

He's probably jealous because he hasn't gone through puberty yet and is having trouble growing a beard!
:smuggrin:

If Cheisu can't respect the beliefs of colleagues, he probably won't be able to respect those of his patients. A person like that does not belong in medicine.
 
hans19 said:
He's probably jealous because he hasn't gone through puberty yet and is having trouble growing a beard!
:smuggrin:

If Cheisu can't respect the beliefs of colleagues, he probably won't be able to respect those of his patients. A person like that does not belong in medicine.
Click to expand...

Ooohh...invoking Lee Burnett's Law.:p
 
I grew a beard just for the hell of it on 2 different rotations. I shaved it for interviews because it looked dumb on me, but re-grew it later (so I could shave it into an awesome mustache). No one has ever said anything to me about it in the OR--they just make me wear the beard-covering mask. If it's OK for me to have facial hair just because I like to, how could there be a problem with someone whose faith dictates that they keep a beard?

I have a really hard time with the idea that someone would be judged for having a religious beard whether that religion was Judaism, Islam, or what-have-you. It's possible that it might happen in some places, but at both my residency program and at my med school there are observant members of different religions who keep beards for those reasons and it isn't even an issue--inside the OR or out! How ridiculous is it to think that someone's religious affiliation could adversely affect the ability to practice medicine/surgery.
 
DrDre311 said:
I grew a beard just for the hell of it on 2 different rotations. I shaved it for interviews because it looked dumb on me, but re-grew it later (so I could shave it into an awesome mustache). No one has ever said anything to me about it in the OR--they just make me wear the beard-covering mask. If it's OK for me to have facial hair just because I like to, how could there be a problem with someone whose faith dictates that they keep a beard?

I have a really hard time with the idea that someone would be judged for having a religious beard whether that religion was Judaism, Islam, or what-have-you. It's possible that it might happen in some places, but at both my residency program and at my med school there are observant members of different religions who keep beards for those reasons and it isn't even an issue--inside the OR or out! How ridiculous is it to think that someone's religious affiliation could adversely affect the ability to practice medicine/surgery.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

The guy who is in charge of adult transplant at Hopkins has a Sam Elliot/ Civil War guy thing going on. :)
 
Winged Scapula said:
Lest there be some confusion: the only poster above who said it would be a problem is a self-described 16 year old from Indiana, neither of which are well known fonts of tolerance and understanding.

There may be some bias but let us not use the poster here as evidence of that.
Click to expand...
Did you seriously just tell me that I am intolerant because I'm from Indiana?

Wow. That's not stereotypical.
 
MossPoh said:
Yes, but you forgot one thing. Cheisu has the emotional IQ of an aborted hyena fetus. I've been to that area many times. I remember being jealous of all the cool stuff the Avon school system had (facilities, teachers, etc.). One thing it lacks is significant diversity, which becomes the breeding ground of ignorance such as the above posted. I don't know why I am even posting in response, since I just tend to browse through, but that blatant intolerance really did bother me a bit. Even though it came from a 16 yearold (I'm not much better) it does bring up some interesting questions I suppose...
Click to expand...
I'm sorry for my comment, I know it was quite bitter.

But let me defend myself before you go calling me intolerant:

Okay, I am a mix of radical liberal and radical conservative, in a way. I am in ways, super new, and in ways, super old.

It frustrates me when someone who wants to go into MEDICINE has to be so indecisive to ask whether he can wear a beard or not. It makes no sense to me. It's illogical. Sometimes, I don't understand how surgery in Christianity (or any religion) really mix. You'd think that surgeons, known for their ability to be extremely pragmatic and logical, would disapprove of a faulted theory such as christianity.

But no, I come home from school, and I see someone posting on the forum, "My religion says I need to wear a beard, can I?". Who asks a question like that? If someone says no, are you not going to continue with medicine because of your religion? No. That's illogical.

And what does facial hair have ANYTHING to do with religion? I'd really like to know what ancient text says "thou must have large facial hair to get into heaven".
 
Cheisu said:
I'm sorry for my comment, I know it was quite bitter.

But let me defend myself before you go calling me intolerant:

Okay, I am a mix of radical liberal and radical conservative, in a way. I am in ways, super new, and in ways, super old.

It frustrates me when someone who wants to go into MEDICINE has to be so indecisive to ask whether he can wear a beard or not. It makes no sense to me. It's illogical. Sometimes, I don't understand how surgery in Christianity (or any religion) really mix. You'd think that surgeons, known for their ability to be extremely pragmatic and logical, would disapprove of a faulted theory such as christianity.

But no, I come home from school, and I see someone posting on the forum, "My religion says I need to wear a beard, can I?". Who asks a question like that? If someone says no, are you not going to continue with medicine because of your religion? No. That's illogical.

And what does facial hair have ANYTHING to do with religion? I'd really like to know what ancient text says "thou must have large facial hair to get into heaven".
Click to expand...

:corny:
 
Cheisu said:
Did you seriously just tell me that I am intolerant because I'm from Indiana?

Wow. That's not stereotypical.
Click to expand...

No.

I said you were 16 and from Indiana, neither of which entity is known to be tolerant.

Stereotypical or not, what you said was WAY out of line. I don't care if your intolerance comes from being 16 or from Indiana or because that's the way you were raised.

It is not welcome here.

The OP was not being indecisive about whether to shave his beard but asking a very real question as to whether or not he would be discriminated against for the simple fact of having it. Your response was the exact reaction he was worried about. I suggest you do a little reading outside of Christianity; there are many religions which mandate wearing of facial hair and it would not be suprising if the faithful chose their religion over medicine. It is not our place to judge whether that is right or wrong.

If anyone is being stereotypical it is you with your outmoded and ignorant ideas about what makes a surgeon or what physicians should or should not believe.
 
Oops, you already deleted that topic. Maybe it was too mature.
 
Winged Scapula said:
No.

I said you were 16 and from Indiana, neither of which entity is known to be tolerant.

Stereotypical or not, what you said was WAY out of line. I don't care if your intolerance comes from being 16 or from Indiana or because that's the way you were raised.

It is not welcome here.

The OP was not being indecisive about whether to shave his beard but asking a very real question as to whether or not he would be discriminated against for the simple fact of having it. Your response was the exact reaction he was worried about. I suggest you do a little reading outside of Christianity; there are many religions which mandate wearing of facial hair and it would not be suprising if the faithful chose their religion over medicine. It is not our place to judge whether that is right or wrong.

If anyone is being stereotypical it is you with your outmoded and ignorant ideas about what makes a surgeon or what physicians should or should not believe.
Click to expand...
Wow. You're from Arizona. Your last name must be Garcia.

Nope. I'm not being stereotypical.
 
Winged Scapula said:
No.

I said you were 16 and from Indiana, neither of which entity is known to be tolerant.

Stereotypical or not, what you said was WAY out of line. I don't care if your intolerance comes from being 16 or from Indiana or because that's the way you were raised.

It is not welcome here.

The OP was not being indecisive about whether to shave his beard but asking a very real question as to whether or not he would be discriminated against for the simple fact of having it. Your response was the exact reaction he was worried about. I suggest you do a little reading outside of Christianity; there are many religions which mandate wearing of facial hair and it would not be suprising if the faithful chose their religion over medicine. It is not our place to judge whether that is right or wrong.

If anyone is being stereotypical it is you with your outmoded and ignorant ideas about what makes a surgeon or what physicians should or should not believe.
Click to expand...
May I ask why they mandate facial hair, then? It does not make sense to me.

Maybe if you explain, I would realize why exactly it's so necessary to keep it? It just doesn't seem necessary to me.
 
Oh, and hon:

I've faced more religious and personal persecution than you would ever believe.
 
Dude, you're going to have a hard time in surgery residency if you like to pick fights with attending surgeons. Winged has been around the game for awhile and probably has some excellent advice for you--of which you might take advantage (instead of antagonizing her).
 
DrDre311 said:
Dude, you're going to have a hard time in surgery residency if you like to pick fights with attending surgeons. Winged has been around the game for awhile and probably has some excellent advice for you--of which you might take advantage (instead of antagonizing her).
Click to expand...
I'm not trying to antagonize her intentionally. I like Dr. Cox, I'm fine with her. I've even talked to her over AIM a couple times. It's a good time.

But I just like to defend my point. It's nothing personal.
 
Also, if you're really interested in the origin of religious beards, I suggest you take a look at the Torah or the Koran. I can tell you that Leviticus 19:27 forbids observant Jews from putting a razor to their skin, but that's about the limit.
 
Cheisu said:
But let me defend myself before you go calling me intolerant:

It frustrates me when someone who wants to go into MEDICINE has to be so indecisive to ask whether he can wear a beard or not. It makes no sense to me. It's illogical. Sometimes, I don't understand how surgery in Christianity (or any religion) really mix. You'd think that surgeons, known for their ability to be extremely pragmatic and logical, would disapprove of a faulted theory such as christianity.

...If someone says no, are you not going to continue with medicine because of your religion? No. That's illogical.
Click to expand...

Without opening epistemological cans of worms that would be way over your head, many people find quite complementary, "logical" ways to combine science and religious beliefs.

If someone's religion says "you must wear a beard," and medicine says "you cannot wear a beard" [which, we've established, it does not], to try to attempt both would violate the law of non-contradiction-- which happens to be the First Principle of logic. It is the height of logicality to say "if A, then Not B... A, therefore Not B." As in, "if medicine says I can't wear a beard, then I should quit." It's a simple question of a hierarchy of value.

Lastly, labeling a religion that claims over a billion adherents a "faulted theory" is poor form, especially from a self-described "eclectic solitary wiccan... not coven." You'll learn the distinction between religious belief and delusion-- a distinction proffered by the most cynical-- is based solely on the numbers of people who agree with you.
 
Cheisu said:
And what does facial hair have ANYTHING to do with religion? I'd really like to know what ancient text says "thou must have large facial hair to get into heaven".
Click to expand...

Cheisu said:
May I ask why they mandate facial hair, then? It does not make sense to me.

Maybe if you explain, I would realize why exactly it's so necessary to keep it? It just doesn't seem necessary to me.
Click to expand...

God said so, the end. I'm sure there's goddess theology that says the same sort of thing, but high school was a long time ago and I'm too lazy to go ask any of my friends right now. (Who, incidentally, are pagan because it's what they believe, not because it's zomg so teh coolness!!!1!)

Cheisu said:
Oh, and hon:

I've faced more religious and personal persecution than you would ever believe.
Click to expand...

Please, sweetie, you're making people who really do get **** for being different look bad. Just because you pull out the pentacle and Raven Silverwolfe's Mystickal Guide to Being A Wiccan doesn't make you speshul.

There are people everywhere with facial hair, with head coverings, with whatever who practise their faith and medicine. The end, that's all, and if you're too narrow-minded to accept it, maybe you should reconsider your path.
 
Cheisu said:
Oh, and hon:

I've faced more religious and personal persecution than you would ever believe.
Click to expand...


Then why do it to others, if you've been so severely persecuted and know what it's like? Surely, that's not demonstrative of logic. Much less wisdom.

And don't call her 'hon.' Show some respect, for God's sake.

(yes, I just referenced God. You know, the guy the Christians talk to?)

Finally, any religious or philosophical ideology that includes the modifier "super" won't have you taken seriously. Last I checked, "super new" and "super old" were not part of extant doctrine.

If you're so dead-bent on being a doctor, TRY to show a little maturity. We'll tackle empathy next week, when you've had time to review the material.
 
Pegasus52082 said:
Wow those are some awesome beards!

And here I thought it was impossible for anyone to beat the handlebars on the dean of my medical school.
Click to expand...

Whoa. He looks like he should be tying some helpless damsel to the railroad tracks or something. Has anyone ever caught him twirling the ends? :D
 
Cheisu said:
I'm not trying to antagonize her intentionally. I like Dr. Cox, I'm fine with her. I've even talked to her over AIM a couple times. It's a good time.

But I just like to defend my point. It's nothing personal.
Click to expand...

Who do you think you are?
KID, you're 16. You can't vote, you probably don't pay income taxes. You probably haven't even gone to college. How is it that you are telling this doctor not to pursue medicine? You aren't even IN medicine. I don't think don't need make an apology in defense of your absurd statement (and it IS absurd on many levels). Rather, I think you owe the OP an apology. I know your only 16, but are you man enough to admit that your wrong?
 
Cheisu said:
I'm not trying to antagonize her intentionally. I like Dr. Cox, I'm fine with her. I've even talked to her over AIM a couple times. It's a good time.

But I just like to defend my point. It's nothing personal.
Click to expand...

My point is that you need to pick your battles. In the culture of surgery, it isn't a good idea to point out every time you think you've been slighted or to try to correct your superiors. I've seen med students who feel like they have to argue over trivial stuff with residents and attendings--they just get killed on their evals, which is a really bad thing when it comes to applying for residency. Perseverance is a great quality, but you have to know when you're fighting a losing battle. Even if you're right about a certain point (and you definitely are not correct in this one), if you choose to press that point with the wrong person then you lose more than you gain--the definition of a pyrrhic victory. I congratulate you on your passion for becoming a surgeon, but if you want to make it to medical school and subsequently obtain a surgical residency then you're going to have to learn that sometimes you've just got to know when you need to let something go.
 
Cheisu said:
Oh, and hon:
Click to expand...
Son,

You DO want to be a surgeon someday don't you? I'm no surgeon, but still I can tell you this-- you don't refer to attendings as 'hon'. You don't even refer to them by their first names. You address them as Dr. ____. In this case, 'Dr. Cox.' And Respond with 'yes sir/ma'am' or 'No sir/ma'am'.
Maybe things are different in Indiana, but I'm not sure that any 16 year old kid should be addressing an adult as 'hon'?

Cheizzz, if you ever make it into medical school, just remember one thing-- the SH-- rolls DOWN hill.
 
smq123 said:
How come no one's mentioned one of the pioneers of pediatric surgery?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._Everett_Koop
Click to expand...

The Koopster is great. However, I feel compelled to point out that the combo of beard and uniform makes him look like the Captain of the Amish Battleship. . .

USS Brother Ezekiel, the finest horse-powered dreadnought we have.
 
racerx said:
The Koopster is great. However, I feel compelled to point out that the combo of beard and uniform makes him look like the Captain of the Amish Battleship. . .

USS Brother Ezekiel, the finest horse-powered dreadnought we have.
Click to expand...

I read the first half of your comment and chuckled. Then, I clicked the link to take another look at The Koopster and I laughed uncontrollably. When I was done, I read the rest of your post, which resulted in further incontrollable laughter. :laugh:

Not to be biased against the Amish or anything, I just found that hilarious.
 
JimmyWild said:
I read the first half of your comment and chuckled. Then, I clicked the link to take another look at The Koopster and I laughed uncontrollably. When I was done, I read the rest of your post, which resulted in further incontrollable laughter. :laugh:

Not to be biased against the Amish or anything, I just found that hilarious.
Click to expand...

I dig the Amish. I am very impressed by their strength of faith in the face of modern society. I was more making an observation about Koopster's face-merkin.

I was gonna go on about the battleship being painted with black lacquer and having a big orange triangle on its stern, kinda like the ones on their horse-drawn buggys. However, I thought it was too obscure a reference.


And here I thought I had an original thought. Guess not: look about 3/4 down the page
http://www.forces.org/articles/files/blair.htm
 
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