Having doubts about entering MD/PhD

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I must admit that i have a bit of cold feet. I am not doubting my decision to enter the MD/PhD program....I am freaking excited about that. I am actually meeting my PhD mentors in 5 days, and I still can not believe it. *pinch me*.

I am, however, worried about what lies ahead. There is an MD/PhD fellow in our lab, and i see how busy he is and how taxing clinical and research obligations are on his family and social obligations. I think better whip up some good time management skills (ie no SDN, youtube, engadget, cnn etc :rolleyes:).

I am also worried about my success in medical school and graduate school, but I think that is normal. Anyhow, that is my 2 cents. Cold feet are normal as long as your decision was based on your desire to do translational research not motivated by money or other factors.

Nice discussion btw!

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And yet, you'll have a position. Compare this to most PhDs, who spend three or more years trying to get a junior faculty spot after a few years as a postdoc. If we wanted to make as much as we might in private practice, why the hell would we apply for MD/PhD programs in the first place?

:thumbup: That's the nice thing about having an MD. You'll always have a job. If you're a PhD and your funding runs out... Go home. I saw a faculty member here do that recently. His grants dried up, his recent grant got triaged... So his wife, who was playing mom to the kids, went back to working as a secretary and now he takes care of the kids and writes grants from home. He's a fairly big name in the field too. Glad that will never have to be me.
 
:thumbup: That's the nice thing about having an MD. You'll always have a job. If you're a PhD and your funding runs out... Go home. I saw a faculty member here do that recently. His grants dried up, his recent grant got triaged... So his wife, who was playing mom to the kids, went back to working as a secretary and now he takes care of the kids and writes grants from home. He's a fairly big name in the field too. Glad that will never have to be me.

Yeah, I jumped from wanting to pursue a PhD to wanting to do an MD/PhD program, so I'm all "holy crap these people have jobs??" :p
 
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It's easy to get a faculty job out of residency. You might make next to nothing, work a bazillion hours a week, and have no job security, but it's still a faculty position. In my chosen specialty they can't find anyone to become academic faculty. Top posts go vacant for many years. They are extremely attending short-staffed, to the point where hospitals can't even find physicians to do the job and contract it all out to private practice physicians. Why? PP pays a lot better, works a lot less, etc etc etc... The MD/PhD faculty I knew didn't even get to go to the big conference in the field every year--he had to cover the clinical service while all the 90% clinical but older attendings went to the conference.

So sure, residency programs are happy to sign you on. They're happy to force you into fellowship when you start residency. The fellowship positions often don't fill. They'd love to have you be their assistant faculty, when you could go off into PP and easily triple your salary (gas, Rads, others). It's likely you're just going to be paid as you would as a fellow ($60k) unless you can bring in big grants in what... 2 years?! hahaha! Bringing in enough grants to cover your salary in 2 years! That's rich! Good luck getting a startup package.... Errr umm... What's that? Tenure track? What's a... tenure? Ohhhhh that old antiquated thing. Yeah right, you lose your funding, do clinical work or gtfo. Or maybe you can go back to being our clinical bitch AND trying to find funding all for your fellowship salary. You don't mind doing that forever right?

When I was a pre-med the idea of being medical school faculty sounded very appealing. There's a reason they're trying like heck to get MD/PhDs to sign on to their fellowships. There's a reason they try to recruit you early into their residency/fellowship/faculty positions... If they paid well or had some other amazing benefits, they wouldn't be trying to recruit you. Everyone would be banging down the door for those spots. If research was a great gig, every guy with an MD would be trying to grab a spot in a lab. But... Oh yeah... Instead, the section chief spot for a particular subspecialty in a particular very big name hospital goes unfilled for 3 years and is finally filled by an foreign doc who can't even technically practice for a few years. Wonder if he'll bail out as soon as he gets licensed and board certified too?

i kinda hate to agree with such a jaundiced view of academia, but neuronix' post is very close to reality. anyone signing on for a dual academic/clinician career has to be very clear on one thing- you will work as hard or harder than your pure clinical and research counterparts, and it will take you much longer to build credibility in either arena. on the research side, you'll be competing with full timers with cadres of postdocs and grad students ready to scoop you. you'll also have to fight to keep your clinical skills sharp enough to avoid being labelled a "lab rat".

however, with basically the same information neuronix posted, i come to a different conclusion: in most cases, you are GIVEN two years of protected time to come up with a grant. that's a reasonable (though minimal) amount of time for a K08 submission, especially if you get started in the lab during residency. depending on the institution and specialty, there are often easier "starter" grants available. if a clinical department really wants you to succeed (and if they're bothering to invest two years in you, they should), they will make an effort not to punish you for your interest - i.e. you should not take a job paying 60K out of residency. if that's all i see coming out of residency... well i guess i'll just do research in my basement. less IRB paperwork, at least.
 
Just to reiterate, if you have a proven track record of good science as a grad student and aren't a total jerk in the clinics you will be recruited ruthlessly from very early on in your training. It is actually a great feeling. The simple reason is is that academic medicine is more or less a crappy job and most people are smart enough not to sign up for a gig where you sacrifice time with your family, have terrible hours, and get paid like crap. Although we all need to realize that private practice comes with it's own headaches as well...grass always looks greener on the other side...must be all the dollar bills littered about.
 
wait, so it's possible to be paid 60k total as an MD/PhD??? WTF? I thought all MDs made at least 100k.
 
wait, so it's possible to be paid 60k total as an MD/PhD??? WTF? I thought all MDs made at least 100k.

I think the MD's you're thinking of are the purely clinical physicians. If you're an MD/PhD and spend a large majority of your time (or all, maybe) running a lab, you are more or less equal in terms of pay to a basic researcher (PhD only). The more clinical responsibilities you have the more you probably get paid, which means less time you can devote to research..

However, I think that the 60K quote was in reference to fellowship pay... But still, I am pretty sure that most research based MD/PhD's get paid less (maybe not significantly?) than there MD only counterparts who do only clinical work..

I'm sure once you're well established and well funded as an MD/PhD you make a decent salary but i think it takes longer in comparison.
 
However, I think that the 60K quote was in reference to fellowship pay... But still, I am pretty sure that most research based MD/PhD's get paid less (maybe not significantly?) than there MD only counterparts who do only clinical work..

What you said is true. Though it's not hard in a bunch of specialties as a new attending to be under 100k if you're doing majority research. The pediatrics and neurology fellows I've talked to have confirmed this, and they have said their classmates were very surprised to find out just how low the salaries were (<100k). Obviously this is institution dependent, and the bigger the name the place you're thinking about, the lower the pay is going to be generally. This is to the point where northeastern city ivy league institutions routinely pay on the order of 30-50% less than their smaller name academic counterparts in less "desirable" locations.

The only program I'm aware of that will give 80/20 research/clinical to Radiology faculty pays ~120k, which is a total joke compared to all other Radiology positions. I.e. that's about half of a majority clinical Radiology academic spot, and about a third to a quarter of PP pay.
 
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while money isn't everything, who the hell goes through all this (8yrs+) to be paid <100k? that's kinda ridiculous.
 
while money isn't everything, who the hell goes through all this (8yrs+) to be paid <100k? that's kinda ridiculous.

Don't do MD/PhD for the money. I hope I've underscored that.

As for what you've just said, I've heard almost that exact quote from every MD/PhD attending I've talked to who has ended up 100% clinical. In the words of one University Dean of Research: "We have to find something to make research a more attractive career." I couldn't agree more.

Another good quote from an attending. "Our chair likes to say that money doesn't matter and you should be happy on 100k/year! It's a lot more money than most people make! Well it's easy for him to say that. His wife is also a physician. He doesn't have any kids. I have two kids and a wife who sits at home and takes care of them. So excuse me if I feel the need to make more money in a big expensive city with a terrible public school system."
 
I would have to agree. And i think it's pretty interesting that income is seldom talked about in any arena prior to matriculation into an md/Phd program or even in the very beginning of the program from what i've gathered (qualitatively) from the interview trail. One most wonder, that yes it is not all about the money, but is there some reason why most applicants (including me until this topic came up) are ignorant as to the salary we will be making after all is said and done?

from the posts of neuronix and other vetern MD/PhD students on this forum, it seems that even for those who are enjoying their career training, it is a long, very challenging 7+ years. Not to mention the residency/fellowship/ect that comes after that. If one is not at least compensated well for all of their schooling and hardwork, what is the allure of these MD/PhD programs when the PP physicians are making so much more money? Not that MD/PhD's who are doing mostly research should get paid like PP physicians who do much more clinical work, but honestly, it does seem a little absurd to not get paid over 100k given all of the schooling and experience.

That being said, while I fully realize the shortcoming in pay, I am esatic to be matriculating into an MD/PhD program next year...Just thought I'd add that little disclaimer..
 
What you said is true. Though it's not hard in a bunch of specialties as a new attending to be under 100k if you're doing majority research. The pediatrics and neurology fellows I've talked to have confirmed this, and they have said their classmates were very surprised to find out just how low the salaries were (<100k). Obviously this is institution dependent, and the bigger the name the place you're thinking about, the lower the pay is going to be generally. This is to the point where northeastern city ivy league institutions routinely pay on the order of 30-50% less than their smaller name academic counterparts in less "desirable" locations.

The only program I'm aware of that will give 80/20 research/clinical to Radiology faculty pays ~120k, which is a total joke compared to all other Radiology positions. I.e. that's about half of a majority clinical Radiology academic spot, and about a third to a quarter of PP pay.

An assistant professor in neurology at Penn makes less than 100k? That is pretty surprising. I had thought more in the ballpark of ~120k.
 
An assistant professor in neurology at Penn makes less than 100k? That is pretty surprising. I had thought more in the ballpark of ~120k.

I shouldn't give more specifics other than to say this is what I was told when I was more seriously considering Neurology 4 years ago before my Neuro rotation. It's old info, it's second hand, etc...

See this thread for more related discussion:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=465093
 
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I would have to agree. And i think it's pretty interesting that income is seldom talked about in any arena prior to matriculation into an md/Phd program or even in the very beginning of the program from what i've gathered (qualitatively) from the interview trail. One most wonder, that yes it is not all about the money, but is there some reason why most applicants (including me until this topic came up) are ignorant as to the salary we will be making after all is said and done?

from the posts of neuronix and other vetern MD/PhD students on this forum, it seems that even for those who are enjoying their career training, it is a long, very challenging 7+ years. Not to mention the residency/fellowship/ect that comes after that. If one is not at least compensated well for all of their schooling and hardwork, what is the allure of these MD/PhD programs when the PP physicians are making so much more money? Not that MD/PhD's who are doing mostly research should get paid like PP physicians who do much more clinical work, but honestly, it does seem a little absurd to not get paid over 100k given all of the schooling and experience.

i'm finishing a 9 year program. i have a family. i'm glad i did the mstp, but as everyone seems to agree, it's hard to recommend it. that said, some of the "allure":

1) you would've gotten a straight phd otherwise, but you like medicine enough that you realize it can subsidize your science habit
2) your phd counterparts, unless they're absolute rockstars, might become faculty 8 -10 years after graduating
3) your MD counterparts are averaging 100-200K of debt that you should not have coming out an MSTP
4) you can't count on PP salaries (or any for that matter) staying at their current level
5) PP can be unbelievably soul sucking and boring
6) not every specialty compensates its physician scientists poorly (though you'll pay in some other way)
7) you'd rather talk about experiments than medicare billing
 
Private practice can be mind numbingly boring, albeit boring at twice the salary and half the hours. It's not like we're flipping burgers or working construction though. The one real benefit of science/academic medicine is your mind doesn't stagnate like it does in private practice. Is it worth everything else that comes with it? I would say no.
 
i'm finishing a 9 year program. i have a family. i'm glad i did the mstp, but as everyone seems to agree, it's hard to recommend it. that said, some of the "allure":

1) you would've gotten a straight phd otherwise, but you like medicine enough that you realize it can subsidize your science habit
2) your phd counterparts, unless they're absolute rockstars, might become faculty 8 -10 years after graduating
3) your MD counterparts are averaging 100-200K of debt that you should not have coming out an MSTP
4) you can't count on PP salaries (or any for that matter) staying at their current level
5) PP can be unbelievably soul sucking and boring
6) not every specialty compensates its physician scientists poorly (though you'll pay in some other way)
7) you'd rather talk about experiments than medicare billing

point well made, even though the pay may be in issue in the future (long time away for me obviously), it would never dissuade me from pursuing an MD/PhD because of many of the reasons you just listed..
 
...wait, so it's possible to be paid 60k total as an MD/PhD??? WTF? I thought all MDs made at least 100k.

Yep, I agree with that response. But to put things into perspective, a salary ~$60K would only apply to fellows. Fellowship is usually 1-2 years. After that, the payscale goes up significantly.

Also, if you choose a clinical fellowship for subspecialty board certification, expect even lower fellow salaries, amounting to the PGY5 level (post graduate year 5, or 5th yr resident). Of course, this is the case for straight MD's, too. But no one goes around saying, "MD's only get paid $50K/yr!?" This is because fellowship is considered part of training, after which payscale goes up a lot.

Clinical subspecialties in psychiatry include things like child psychiatry, forensic psychiatry, psychosomatic medicine, substance abuse, geriatrics and neuropsychiatry. All of these subspecialties pay at the PGY 5 level (except child, where you can short track after yr 3, so first year you'll get paid a PGY4 salary), which is only a couple thousand $ more than your PGY4 salary in residency. This ranges from $50-70K depending on the cost of living of where you live. The thinking is that upon subspecialty board certification, your salary will be higher (by ~10K at many academic insitutions; in PP, subspeciatly certification is often simply just needed to really practice, though in some cases, your salary won't change with or without it), so you don't need to be paid a lot as a fellow. But they don't say that. What they'll say is that since you're not subspecialty board-certified at the time of training and are still learning about the subspecialty, you get paid at the indentured servant income.

Don't do MD/PhD for the money. I hope I've underscored that.

True. But if you're considering academia, it's not a bad idea to plan your financial future. It's much easier to accept academic salaries (including a possible need for fellowship) if you don't have $200K in loans to pay. Okay, now I know colleagues who'll have to pay almost $1,000/month upon graduation from residency. If that were happening to me, yes, I'd be signed on to just about any private practice job right now!

An assistant professor in neurology at Penn makes less than 100k? That is pretty surprising. I had thought more in the ballpark of ~120k.

Several years ago, assistant professors in psychiatry at "top tier" programs got paid as little as $85K/yr. More recently, the average at top tier programs is more like $120-130K.

Yes, IMO, chairmen are correct in that you shouldn't select a job for money. I totally agree with that. I actually enjoy what I do, and I can't wait to get paid even $100K/yr, which sounds fabulous! At the same time, I get very tired of hearing chairmen talk about how money isn't important, when we all know very well they're getting paid ~$300K/yr and they rarely have family members on our career paths.

My take: Don't put up with $60K/yr post residency if you are an MD/PhD. Find a way to get an 80/20 job (whether it's an (elevated) postdoc or some other variety of "junior faculty") while getting paid at least $80K/yr. At the same time, don't become seduced into a job with less than 80/20 research/clinical time if you're serious about research. Even if the salary will undoubtedly be higher with more clinical work, you won't have enough time to do basic or translational research. Lastly, shop around. If you give the impression you're staying at a program no matter what, you'll be taken advantage of. I don't blame chairs on this. If you can pay someone $60K/yr, why would you pay him $100K/yr? We're in an economic crisis, after all...
 
you can debate this ad nausem but the point is nobody knows what's gonna happen to whom. Just do your best and see what happens, and have a back-up plan (PP). If you do academic research you have to be very Zen about your life.
 
If we wanted to make as much as we might in private practice, why the hell would we apply for MD/PhD programs in the first place?

Because if you decide you hate research and PP is what you want to do, you may be competitive for residencies that would otherwise be out of reach had you gone straight MD. Just don't mention PP during your interview and be sure to gush about how awesome academic medicine and research is.

Of course I am just kidding.

Just kidding about just kidding.
 
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