Helicopter crash question

[rsgillmd]

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I know a fair number of people on this board are or have been in the military and I'm hoping you can weigh in on my question.

I read this afternoon about a crash of a helicopter in Afghanistan that killed 38 soldiers. This was due to hostile action, but the article goes on to say that there have been 15 crashes or forced landings of helicopters this year. Of those 2 were hostile.

While my sympathies are with the families of the dead, I have to wonder why there are so many problems with the helicopters. Is it the environment? Poor maintenance? Increased usage compared to civilian helicopters?

While I'm sure the answer is probably multifactorial, I would expect military helicopters to be built to stand the rigors of combat. So hearing of such a large number surprises me. If there were to be 15 crashes or forced landings in 7-8 months of Medevac helicopters, there would be even more of an uproar in the EMS community than there is even now. Something just doesn't seem right.

 

[epidural man]

I know a fair number of people on this board are or have been in the military and I'm hoping you can weigh in on my question.

I read this afternoon about a crash of a helicopter in Afghanistan that killed 38 soldiers. This was due to hostile action, but the article goes on to say that there have been 15 crashes or forced landings of helicopters this year. Of those 2 were hostile.

While my sympathies are with the families of the dead, I have to wonder why there are so many problems with the helicopters. Is it the environment? Poor maintenance? Increased usage compared to civilian helicopters?

While I'm sure the answer is probably multifactorial, I would expect military helicopters to be built to stand the rigors of combat. So hearing of such a large number surprises me. If there were to be 15 crashes or forced landings in 7-8 months of Medevac helicopters, there would be even more of an uproar in the EMS community than there is even now. Something just doesn't seem right.

I don't have a good answer but would love to speculate. 😎

I would think the primary reason is from the terrain and harshness of the environment in Ass-crackistan (horrible dust storms that come rapidly happen all the time).

Also, maybe the fact that the crew (not the pilots) are 19 y/o kids has something to do with it.

Finally, a useful statistic would be crash per hour flying. It may not be that high when compared that way - Dustoff guys are working and flying all the freakin' time.

 

[kazuma]

We had a lecture given by an ER doc about life flight and ems. I don't have the numbers on hand, but apparently ems helicopters aren't very safe either. The numbers were pretty startling, but it makes sense when these guys are landing in unfamiliar territory with power lines and other obstacles that might not be seen. There are also fatalities due to people walking into the rear prop while the heli is on the ground.😱 That's part of the reason why you see enclosed rear props on a lot of the newer heli's.

 

[doctor712]

Well, I also read about the fact that this Chinook in case, was fired upon. I don't think they're doing that just yet in Miami, Houston and LA. So, ya know, that could be a pretty large factor in the amount of crashes/forced landings. I'm sure we know very little about the circumstances of each crash. And rightfully so.

Sad to hear about the SEALS involved, and the others of course. After such a successful Osama mission, to go out this way, tragic.

D712

 

[pgg]

Lots of factors.

The dust and dirt is havoc on machinery.

The altitude ... much of Afghanistan is way the hell up there, and the physics that keeps helicopters in the air struggles above ~10-12,000 feet. They don't accelerate or climb like they do at sea level.

Inclement weather that might keep them grounded on a training day doesn't stop them when someone needs air support or casevac.

The high number of hours they are flying. The maintenance crews work HARD and even longer hours than the flight crews. During really busy times, there is absolutely some "maintenance triage" going on.

The type of flying - often low at night, with lights off using night-vision equipment.

Usually flying in unfamiliar areas.

Some risk-taking by pilots. I hesitate to bring this up, but young guys flying or driving military machines do dumb things sometimes. It was a factor in a couple crashes I had first-hand knowledge of.

Even if a crash is not due to enemy fire, the pilots fly differently (ie lower and faster) when the enemy is around.


Like kazuma said, even civilian EMS flying is more dangerous. My brother used to be a paramedic who flew life flight both fixed and rotary wing. He had some near misses in the helos and once his plane landed on a softer-than-anticipated field and slid sideways before stopping in a ditch. Not long after that one he quit that job ...



This was a really, really bad crash. People don't really acknowledge it or talk about it, but much of the real progress made in both Afghanistan and Iraq is made by special forces. Not the regular Army or Marines, important as their role is to be seen by everyone and out in force when some highly visible asskicking is needed ... but the SF types. I don't mean to imply that one death is worse than another, but I think losing 22 SEALs in one go is a special kind of disaster. They're a small community, and their deployment tempo is ridiculously high in the first place. They'll be hard to replace.

 

[epidural man]

but the SF types. I don't mean to imply that one death is worse than another, but I think losing 22 SEALs in one go is a special kind of disaster. They're a small community, and their deployment tempo is ridiculously high in the first place. They'll be hard to replace.

I wonder if the Taliban knew they were downing a high valued target.

 

[pgg]

I wonder if the Taliban knew they were downing a high valued target.

Probably not. The news says the helo was responding to bail out some other troops who were pinned down. The insurgents were probably just delighted a fight with regular troops was sorta going their way for once, then a big helicopter showed up, and their lucky day turned into a very lucky day.

 

[jetproppilot]

There aren't "so many problems" with the helos. When you factor in how many helo missions go daily in the theatre, this is really a relatively low number of incidents. Our pilots used to tell me that flying rotary wing in Afghanistan was the single most difficult assignment they could have anywhere in the world, due to the dust, terrain, and weather.

When helos go in, the Talib shoot off every round they can muster up at it trying to bring it down. Even the ones with the big red crosses. Few things scare Talib like a helo, whether it's carrying rockets or troops. Taking down a helo is a huge propaganda coup for them, and a status symbol. Lucky for us, they usually have minimal training in how to employ the weapons systems they carry, and our aircraft crews are truly top-notch.

This was a bad day for the Navy, but we will pay them back in short order...

There aren't "So many problems?"...concerning EMS helicopters?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Yes.

There are problems.

There's too many crashes of EMS helicopters.

Wanna compare EMS Helicopter Crashes To The Airline Industry Crashes?

The airline industry is WAYYYYYY

more safe

than EMS helicopters.

The EMS aviation industry has a lot to learn.

Doesn't take ME to bring that to the limelight since they


KEEP CRASHING HELICOPTERS.


Seriously man.

EMS ROTARY WING DIVISION

Has a lot to learn

Leaves a lot to be desired.

TOO MANY CRASHES.

 

[Pietrantonio]

For awhile, EMS Helicopters were dropping like flies. I haven't heard much lately, but A LOT have gone down and a lot of lives have been taken in the process.

God speed to those who lost their lives protecting our freedoms. We will never forget your dedication and sacrafices.

 

[pgg]

There aren't "So many problems?"...concerning EMS helicopters?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

He's talking about helicopters in Afghanistan, not EMS helicopters in the states.

Settle down ... 😉

 

[244913]

I have quite a bit of personal experience in this arena, having flown a great number of missions exactly like this Assault, and many with SpecOps forces.

I think we need to be careful here though, not to tread on OPSEC ground. Who knows who reads these forums.

This was a tragedy- the only reason it doesn't happen more often is due to the incredible skill and bravery of our aircrews.

61N

 

[pgg]

I think we need to be careful here though, not to tread on OPSEC ground. Who knows who reads these forums.

Seriously? This story and its implications are front page news on every print and electronic news medium in the western hemisphere. There's nothing in this thread which even begins to hint at touching on the edge of sensitive information.

It was a very bad day.

 

[epidural man]

I think we need to be careful here though, not to tread on OPSEC ground. Who knows who reads these forums.

Believe me, there is nothing that us anesthesiologists sitting in our comfy chair at our computer in the land of milk and honey know over those crafty Taliban.

It's not like we are reading SIPRNet and regurgitating. Sheesh!

 

[244913]

I agree that nothing that has been said so far violates OPSEC or comes even close. I just said we need to be careful. Some people here know a lot more than the average Joe about Helo Air Assaults and in explaining how this happened they could inadvertently touch on sensitive information about the Chinook, its vulnerabilities, and the usual tactics employed during these operations.

And let's face it, if a Jihadist was going to come to one SDN forum for a distraction or some forbidden laughs, it would be this one with the cast of characters here!

 

[doctor712]

I agree that nothing that has been said so far violates OPSEC or comes even close. I just said we need to be careful. Some people here know a lot more than the average Joe about Helo Air Assaults and in explaining how this happened they could inadvertently touch on sensitive information about the Chinook, its vulnerabilities, and the usual tactics employed during these operations.

And let's face it, if a Jihadist was going to come to one SDN forum for a distraction or some forbidden laughs, it would be this one with the cast of characters here!

X2👍