Help calculating opportunity cost of Oral Surgery

[desertrat12]

I’ve always wanted to do oms, and I’m currently studying for the cbse. I’ve got the grades, and hopefully will have the cbse to make it happen. But I’ve got a family and will be 30 at graduation and the decision to do OS residency is becoming more challenging given my age, wife, kids, etc. They are 100% supportive, but regardless it still makes it a harder decision for me. I’m trying to calculate out the opportunity cost to see how financially worth it oral surgery actually is in comparison to general dentistry, here are the numbers I’ve come up with - please correct me if I’m wrong!

Loan at graduation will be 260k, after 4 years of no payments (4 yr oms residency) at 7% that will balloon to 340k = 80k difference

General dentistry income (making assumptions)
Yr 1: 120k
Yr 2: 150 k
Yr 3 (buy practice): 250k
Yr 4: 250k
Total: 770k

Oral surgery residency income:
55k/yr for 4 years: 220k

So 770-220= 550k in lost income

So total opportunity cost of 550k+80k=630k

Am I missing anything? Or incorrect in my assumptions?

I’ve got no idea what my gp income as a owner might end up being, or what my oral surgeon income would end up being, we have almost no geographic requirements and are willing to move, so it is tough to see how these would play out in comparison over the years...


I realize specializing for the money isn’t a great reason, but in my case I want to pursue oms, but if I don’t see a healthy return on investment I feel my time is better spent with family and working hard as a gp.

Thanks for any insight!!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[vellnueve]

Your age?

Really?

And your GP numbers are a little optimistic.

 

[desertrat12]

Your age?

Really?

And your GP numbers are a little optimistic.

My age puts me at 34 finishing residency. Still young, but you can’t buy time back with your kids...put another way, the weight of residency is hitting harder as I’ve been talking to current residents and preparing for externships. I’m realizing more than ever that it is a lot to put a family through, and if in the end it will place me at a similar income level as an owner gp (given opportunity cost) then it’s hard to justify me doing it as it gives little benefit to the people I come home to. Single with no kids I wouldn’t hesitate. Just trying to make sure if the best thing for us.

As far as income goes, I admit I might be optimistic. I’m just going off graduated classmates who have been willing to go where there is a need - which is something I’m also willing to do.

 

[TanMan]

I’ve always wanted to do oms, and I’m currently studying for the cbse. I’ve got the grades, and hopefully will have the cbse to make it happen. But I’ve got a family and will be 30 at graduation and the decision to do OS residency is becoming more challenging given my age, wife, kids, etc. They are 100% supportive, but regardless it still makes it a harder decision for me. I’m trying to calculate out the opportunity cost to see how financially worth it oral surgery actually is in comparison to general dentistry, here are the numbers I’ve come up with - please correct me if I’m wrong!

Loan at graduation will be 260k, after 4 years of no payments (4 yr oms residency) at 7% that will balloon to 340k = 80k difference

General dentistry income (making assumptions)
Yr 1: 120k
Yr 2: 150 k
Yr 3 (buy practice): 250k
Yr 4: 250k
Total: 770k

Oral surgery residency income:
55k/yr for 4 years: 220k

So 770-220= 550k in lost income

So total opportunity cost of 550k+80k=630k

Am I missing anything? Or incorrect in my assumptions?

I’ve got no idea what my gp income as a owner might end up being, or what my oral surgeon income would end up being, we have almost no geographic requirements and are willing to move, so it is tough to see how these would play out in comparison over the years...


I realize specializing for the money isn’t a great reason, but in my case I want to pursue oms, but if I don’t see a healthy return on investment I feel my time is better spent with family and working hard as a gp.

Thanks for any insight!!

Assume both scenarios, 4yr vs 6yr programs. I think it's more fair to calculate it from an average yearly income throughout your lifetime as a GP.
So.... here's how I would look at it:

Opportunity Cost = Average anticipated yearly GP income * (x years in residency) + tuition cost (can be negative if paid) + Interest on existing loans + potential investment gains within the 4-6 years of earning GP money

How to decide whether it's worth going through residency:

- Is the aggregate lifetime income anticipated as a GP less than, equal to, or greater than aggregate lifetime income anticipated as an oral surgeon + incurred costs (tuition, loan interest, other liabilities)? If the answer is GP>OS, stop and don't even bother unless you really love OS. You're already at a time/money disadvantage.

- I would estimate aggregate lifetime GP income to be ((Retirement age - Start of working age) * anticipated yearly average GP income) and aggregate lifetime OS income to be ((Retirement age - Start of working age) * anticipated yearly average OS income). These averages are difficult to find, because income distributions vary so greatly. Average incomes can vary whether by associate or ownership.

However, you need to factor in that a GP has a 4-6 year head start to invest their money before the OS. So, if you make some really good investments, you could say that the opportunity cost is even greater. Most of your money will not come from dentistry, but dentistry will generate the capital you need to retire. I'm biased as a GP and if I were to have gone into OS, I would've lost a lot of income/opportunities. If your plan is to be an associate and have no interest in ownership, I'd say specialize. If you want to become an owner, I'd say be a GP.

 

[vellnueve]

My age puts me at 34 finishing residency. Still young, but you can’t buy time back with your kids...put another way, the weight of residency is hitting harder as I’ve been talking to current residents and preparing for externships. I’m realizing more than ever that it is a lot to put a family through, and if in the end it will place me at a similar income level as an owner gp (given opportunity cost) then it’s hard to justify me doing it as it gives little benefit to the people I come home to. Single with no kids I wouldn’t hesitate. Just trying to make sure if the best thing for us.

As far as income goes, I admit I might be optimistic. I’m just going off graduated classmates who have been willing to go where there is a need - which is something I’m also willing to do.

The year I started two guys finished at age 40, both with families.

This year, a colleague of mine finished. She started at 40, 2 months after giving birth to her second.

If you want to do it, do it. Don't let age be an excuse. And the money as a GP, even as an owner, is likely to be less than your starting salary as an OMS.

 

[321931]

Who knows honestly.

I have friends graduating NOW from their residency. I graduated in 2014. Some did a GPR 1 year then OMFS and graduating 2019. Some are due for graduation in 2020 from their 6 year program.

4-6 years of being on call 80 hours a week is hard. Their instagrams are filled with long sleepless nights and suits in formal meetings. They still have loans and they sacrificed alot of time to get where they are.
In that time, I have paid off my loans, settled down with a house, practice, and family, and traveled pretty much the world. I lived out my 20's and early 30's pretty happily. I would say my OMFS guys didn't but I'm sure they will later on in life.

OMFS bring in good bucks, but at the expense of sacrifice, so that kind of value is up to the participant. All in all, you can't put a number on anything. Graduating at 34 from OMFS isn't setting you back at to much.

To those participants graduating today at 2019/2020 from OMFS- I'm sure they look back and think it was all worth it and they are happy with their lives. I look back at my past 5 years and I'm happy about mine. So to each his own. The value and opportunity cost lost is really up to the person, and not what the outside person thinks. Some people think the value/opportunity cost of missing out "being there" for their young kids is not measurable. They think that's worth 1 million bucks, while some others think that working 80 hours in the hospital in order to ensure their kids will be taken care of in the future while missing out on them growing is totally worth it. So you can't put a value on it to be honest.

Don't forget one more thing- you don't graduate and just end up in your million dollar partnership right away- that takes time. Just like how you mentioned that GP's work 1-2 years before settling down- the same can be said about OMFS. So it's not like you end up graduating at 34 working 3 days a week and making 1 mil a bucks. It just ain't that simple.

Regardless, OMFS isn't going anywhere and the income will be good. It's a good job but there's sacrifice involved.

 

[Svart Aske]

If you think that 5 years from now, you'd look back and regretted that you had not pursued OMFS, you should do it.

Choosing your career path should not be a purely financial decision.

 

[321931]

If you think that 5 years from now, you'd look back and regretted that you had not pursued OMFS, you should do it.

Choosing your career path should not be a purely financial decision.

I would agree with this sentiment. OMFS tend to pay stipends and that helps lessen the blow of accumulating debt/interest. However, financials should be taken into account if you have to go deep in debt to get your degree.

 

[TanMan]

If you think that 5 years from now, you'd look back and regretted that you had not pursued OMFS, you should do it.

Choosing your career path should not be a purely financial decision.

Or... you went through OS and regret that you wasted 4-6 years of your life that you'll never get back. Money is important and is the most objective measurement that we have. Don't look at just the money, look at the time too. If we were immortal, time wouldn't matter, but unfortunately, we only have so many years in this world.

I prefer to take the path of least resistance. Why not exert the least amount of effort for the most amount of money?

 

[UCLA MCDB]

How many kids do you have? and how old are they?
Are you family person? Do you want to go your kid's graduation ceremony?
If you purse oms, you might not be able to participate due to emergency.
I will be 33 when I am done with dental school and I do not mind studying extra 6 more years for omfs.
OP, what do you value the most?
If I want to spend more quality time with my family, I would not do oms.
If you feel like you will regret and spending less time with your family is okay, then I would do oms.

 

[Svart Aske]

Or... you went through OS and regret that you wasted 4-6 years of your life that you'll never get back. Money is important and is the most objective measurement that we have. Don't look at just the money, look at the time too. If we were immortal, time wouldn't matter, but unfortunately, we only have so many years in this world.

I prefer to take the path of least resistance. Why not exert the least amount of effort for the most amount of money?

I've never met an oral surgeon or any specialist who regretted their decision to undertake additional training.

It's your prerogative to take the path of least resistance. You mentioned that we have a limited amount of time in this world; that's precisely why some people think it's more important to live without regrets.

 

[Mogambo4ever]

Yeah, everyone is right. OMFS is not making any money and are starving. No one should go into it. Stick to being a GP because they are making more money.

 

[Extirpator]

If you have to ask, you can't afford it

 

[TanMan]

I've never met an oral surgeon or any specialist who regretted their decision to undertake additional training.

It's your prerogative to take the path of least resistance. You mentioned that we have a limited amount of time in this world; that's precisely why some people think it's more important to live without regrets.

Yes, but there's a difference in regretting being an OS and losing 4-6 years of your life v. not going to OS and having the option of going into OS afterwards. This assumes that you were a productive GP in that equivalent 4-6 years of your practicing life (in lieu of going to residency). If you're not productive or going to be a productive GP, you might as well specialize.

Yeah, everyone is right. OMFS is not making any money and are starving. No one should go into it. Stick to being a GP because they are making more money.

Haha, gotta love the sarcasm. OS's make tons of money. It's about the time required to become an OS. +100-150% additional schooling seems to be a huge sacrifice of the prime years of your life. Under the traditional route, you pretty much lose most, if not all of your 20's to school. Opportunity costs are high, GP headstart is another factor. Most of my colleagues who got out of residency are just starting their lives. Whereas I have the headstart of paying off my student loans, no practice debt, cars, homes, travel, etc... Personally, trading off your 20's in residency just seems to be a major deal killer. The key for GP's is what you do with your running start.

 

[C.elegans]

Yes, but there's a difference in regretting being an OS and losing 4-6 years of your life v. not going to OS and having the option of going into OS afterwards. This assumes that you were a productive GP in that equivalent 4-6 years of your practicing life (in lieu of going to residency). If you're not productive or going to be a productive GP, you might as well specialize.



Haha, gotta love the sarcasm. OS's make tons of money. It's about the time required to become an OS. +100-150% additional schooling seems to be a huge sacrifice of the prime years of your life. Under the traditional route, you pretty much lose most, if not all of your 20's to school. Opportunity costs are high, GP headstart is another factor. Most of my colleagues who got out of residency are just starting their lives. Whereas I have the headstart of paying off my student loans, no practice debt, cars, homes, travel, etc... Personally, trading off your 20's in residency just seems to be a major deal killer. The key for GP's is what you do with your running start.

It really comes down to your end goal in life. If your goal is solely to have a financially comfortable life with lots of spare time to relax and enjoy being with family, OMFS is definitely not a good career choice to make. And there is nothing wrong with that. Some people have other ambitions and aspirations in life. Someone who wants to practice in academia and do crazy lifesaving/changing surgeries may think residency is not lost time, but time that is spent towards their goals. People who go into OMFS for the wrong reasons will definitely regret it, but like another poster said, every surgeon I have personally met has never regretted it for a second.

Some people may think Neurosurgeons are crazy to have signed up for 7 years of residency training after medical school and fellowships afterwards. But don't we need these kind of motivated people who want more in life than just money and a cushy lifestyle? I know I will be thanking them when I come in to the hospital requiring an emergency craniotomy to evacuate an epidural hematoma.

 

[bld]

There's no question residency will take you away from your family more than you'd like, but the idea that those years will be a black hole for your life is ridiculous. You will have less time for yourself to relax. It will be that much harder for you because your time will not be your own at the hospital or at home. You will need to eat well, sleep when you can and otherwise suck up the exhaustion so you can give 100% to your family when you're home. Is it the easiest path? No. But my philosophy is that if I'm doing something I love then when I'm home I'll have more to give even if I'm running on two hours sleep in the last 48. You can still be a good parent and a good spouse as a resident, and if it's what you love then go for it.

As for the financial costs of residency, your end of career wealth will almost certainly surpass what it would be as a gp.

 

[321931]

There's no question residency will take you away from your family more than you'd like, but the idea that those years will be a black hole for your life is ridiculous. You will have less time for yourself to relax. It will be that much harder for you because your time will not be your own at the hospital or at home. You will need to eat well, sleep when you can and otherwise suck up the exhaustion so you can give 100% to your family when you're home. Is it the easiest path? No. But my philosophy is that if I'm doing something I love then when I'm home I'll have more to give even if I'm running on two hours sleep in the last 48. You can still be a good parent and a good spouse as a resident, and if it's what you love then go for it.

As for the financial costs of residency, your end of career wealth will almost certainly surpass what it would be as a gp.

I hate hate hate blanket statements like this. There is no doubt that an associate will never make as make as a specialist. However, I know GP's owners that are doing very very very well for themselves and I reckon make as much as OMFS.- And they have a 2-6 year head start. Like Tanman said.

Business/ownership really evens the playing field.

 

[bld]

I hate hate hate blanket statements like this. There is no doubt that an associate will never make as make as a specialist. However, I know GP's owners that are doing very very very well for themselves and I reckon make as much as OMFS.- And they have a 2-6 year head start. Like Tanman said.

Business/ownership really evens the playing field.

You're absolutely right, and maybe my wording was too strong, but I think it is fair to say that the majority of OMFS will make more money than a gp over their career all other things being equal (work ethic, investing acumen, etc). I'm saying the years lost do not have to be considered as heavily from a financial standpoint.

 

[TanMan]

It really comes down to your end goal in life. If your goal is solely to have a financially comfortable life with lots of spare time to relax and enjoy being with family, OMFS is definitely not a good career choice to make. And there is nothing wrong with that. Some people have other ambitions and aspirations in life. Someone who wants to practice in academia and do crazy lifesaving/changing surgeries may think residency is not lost time, but time that is spent towards their goals. People who go into OMFS for the wrong reasons will definitely regret it, but like another poster said, every surgeon I have personally met has never regretted it for a second.

Some people may think Neurosurgeons are crazy to have signed up for 7 years of residency training after medical school and fellowships afterwards. But don't we need these kind of motivated people who want more in life than just money and a cushy lifestyle? I know I will be thanking them when I come in to the hospital requiring an emergency craniotomy to evacuate an epidural hematoma.

True, someone has to do these things that require long training. We should be thankful for those that sacrifice their lives to pursue these grueling endeavors. Would I do it? Never. OMFS is very flexible too. There are some that choose to limit their practice to 3rds and implants only. No orthognathic, trauma, or pathology, and on the other end, you have some that deal with tmj, cancer, reconstructions, etc...

There's no question residency will take you away from your family more than you'd like, but the idea that those years will be a black hole for your life is ridiculous. You will have less time for yourself to relax. It will be that much harder for you because your time will not be your own at the hospital or at home. You will need to eat well, sleep when you can and otherwise suck up the exhaustion so you can give 100% to your family when you're home. Is it the easiest path? No. But my philosophy is that if I'm doing something I love then when I'm home I'll have more to give even if I'm running on two hours sleep in the last 48. You can still be a good parent and a good spouse as a resident, and if it's what you love then go for it.

As for the financial costs of residency, your end of career wealth will almost certainly surpass what it would be as a gp.

If you love what you do, then yes, it will be worth the years of sacrifice. From a financial perspective, if you're looking at wealth created only from working as a GP v. OS, then OS will most likely win. If you factor in the 4-6 year headstart of a GP that invests their time and money well, I think that a GP owner still wins, because 4-6 years is a long time when it comes to maturity of investments. Most of your money will not come from dentistry. It will be from the invested capital that came from dentistry.

 

[ToothJockey]

Even with a 630k opportunity cost, OS still comes out ahead in the long run. According to ADA the average OS practice bills ~1.4 mil, whereas the average GP practice bills ~700-800k. Assuming overhead is similar (which its not), the OS takes home almost double. In reality OS overhead is lower than GP overhead based on ADA stats + CPA stats, so the OS actually comes out far ahead even after taking into account 4 years and 630k.

GP could theoretically use those 4-6 years the OS spends in residency to expand into multiple practices, or invest heavily and come out ahead of the OS even in the long run. I guess it all depends on the person not really on the career path chosen.

 

[321931]

Even with a 630k opportunity cost, OS still comes out ahead in the long run. According to ADA the average OS practice bills ~1.4 mil, whereas the average GP practice bills ~700-800k. Assuming overhead is similar (which its not), the OS takes home almost double. In reality OS overhead is lower than GP overhead based on ADA stats + CPA stats, so the OS actually comes out far ahead even after taking into account 4 years and 630k.

GP could theoretically use those 4-6 years the OS spends in residency to expand into multiple practices, or invest heavily and come out ahead of the OS even in the long run. I guess it all depends on the person not really on the career path chosen.

And this is where you begin to learn more.

Type in your zip code + dental practice for sale. Chances are you will find MANY general practices for sale on middle end...low end...and high end.

So I looked up my the most popular broker in my location:
On one brokers page, there are 15 general practices for sale. 3 of them for sale that are collecting over 1 million. One is doing 2 million.

There is only one specialty practice for sale that is collecting below 650k.

What I'm saying is that you can easily buy a practice that collects and nets the same as the OMFS practice. Yes you have a 10 year note, but it will get paid back. Dentistry has less then 1% failure rates. It's not that hard. The thing with General Practices is that most are built on goodwill- meaning you buy the patient's chart and the doctor's name to it. These patients will come back and give you a shot. As long as you are a good person- they will come back.

What about specialty practices- why aren't more of them on sale? Well for one- less specialists. Two, no goodwill- meaning that you are built on your reputation and your relationships with your GP's rather then your patients. As an OMFS you aren't going to be seeing the same patients every 6 months recall. So to buy a practice is literally...gambling because you are hoping that the existing referals will continue to refer to you. In reality when my endodontist sold his practice to someone new- I just referred to my other endo because I just didn't know the buyer and I didn't hit it off well with him.

So what mostly happens is specialists do starts-ups and or buy into partnerships where they have to work up patients and reputation and specialist/gp referall relationships before they start hitting their stride....while the GP that buys into a 1 mil+ practice already hit his stride and making OS money year 2 of practicing.

So like Tanman stated- what a GP does in their first few years out- does matter. Honestly- a person who just jumps in and can manage a 1-2million dollar GP practice- will be light years ahead in opportunity cost. As stated " If you factor in the 4-6 year headstart of a GP that invests their time and money well, I think that a GP owner still wins, because 4-6 years is a long time when it comes to maturity of investments. Most of your money will not come from dentistry. It will be from the invested capital that came from dentistry. " If you are making OS money year 2 of your practice and have invested it in the past few years of the stock market run- you are way ahead then the average person. Just some information for thought.

 

[2TH MVR]

I’m trying to calculate out the opportunity cost to see how financially worth it oral surgery actually is in comparison to general dentistry, here are the numbers I’ve come up with - please correct me if I’m wrong!

I realize specializing for the money isn’t a great reason, but in my case I want to pursue oms, but if I don’t see a healthy return on investment I feel my time is better spent with family and working hard as a gp.

When I read your post .... I get the feeling that you're very undecided and conflicted. If you really wanted to pursue OMS .... then you would have no doubts. You would make it happen and your family would be there to support you. It's not about opportunity costs. It's about having no regrets. As others have chimed in ... the average OMS will probably make more money than the average GP over time.

If you're soley doing this for the money .... well .... it's been said that specializing to make money is not the wisest decision. Being a specialist doesn't automatically make you wealthier than GPs. Yes ..... you will be paid more on average, but there is more to wealth than how much you make.

So ... is it a dream to become an OMS or are you doing it for the money? Answer that and you will have your answer.

 

[deleted913442]

If your goal is solely to have a financially comfortable life with lots of spare time to relax and enjoy being with family, OMFS is definitely not a good career choice to make. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I mean from what I hear talking to people, it’s those years of residency that are hell, and then the lifestyle and family time gets much better and similar to those of a GP if you go into private practice with occasional hospital privileges (correct me if I’m wrong)

 

[amali]

I hate hate hate blanket statements like this. There is no doubt that an associate will never make as make as a specialist. However, I know GP's owners that are doing very very very well for themselves and I reckon make as much as OMFS.- And they have a 2-6 year head start. Like Tanman said.

Business/ownership really evens the playing field.

You can hate the statement all you want...but its true. I know a few general dentists that make way more than OMFS's...but thats not the norm. As you stated 4-6 years is a lot of lost time and income, but when you look at the reimbursements for OMFS procedures you can see how quickly they close the gap a couple years out and eventually surpass.

To the OP...you can analyze and analyze the lost income, time away from family, and other nuances between being a GP vs OMFS. In the end though, most if not all OMFS's have an intrinsic desire to do surgery. They would rather go to the OR in the middle of the night and inhale the fumes from a bovie than cut a class 2.

And don't sweat the age. Lots of residents graduate in their 40's and then even go on to do fellowships. Good luck with the CBSE!

 

[321931]

You can hate the statement all you want...but its true. I know a few general dentists that make way more than OMFS's...but thats not the norm. As you stated 4-6 years is a lot of lost time and income, but when you look at the reimbursements for OMFS procedures you can see how quickly they close the gap a couple years out and eventually surpass.

To the OP...you can analyze and analyze the lost income, time away from family, and other nuances between being a GP vs OMFS. In the end though, most if not all OMFS's have an intrinsic desire to do surgery. They would rather go to the OR in the middle of the night and inhale the fumes from a bovie than cut a class 2.

And don't sweat the age. Lots of residents graduate in their 40's and then even go on to do fellowships. Good luck with the CBSE!

Fair enough. I guess I'll be one of the "not the norm." But anyways, yes looking at the average graduate (my classmates) working normal associateships, they will never be close to an OMFS...even though the earning potential is literally screaming at them.

 

[ToothJockey]

And this is where you begin to learn more.

Type in your zip code + dental practice for sale. Chances are you will find MANY general practices for sale on middle end...low end...and high end.

So I looked up my the most popular broker in my location:
On one brokers page, there are 15 general practices for sale. 3 of them for sale that are collecting over 1 million. One is doing 2 million.

There is only one specialty practice for sale that is collecting below 650k.

What I'm saying is that you can easily buy a practice that collects and nets the same as the OMFS practice. Yes you have a 10 year note, but it will get paid back. Dentistry has less then 1% failure rates. It's not that hard. The thing with General Practices is that most are built on goodwill- meaning you buy the patient's chart and the doctor's name to it. These patients will come back and give you a shot. As long as you are a good person- they will come back.

What about specialty practices- why aren't more of them on sale? Well for one- less specialists. Two, no goodwill- meaning that you are built on your reputation and your relationships with your GP's rather then your patients. As an OMFS you aren't going to be seeing the same patients every 6 months recall. So to buy a practice is literally...gambling because you are hoping that the existing referals will continue to refer to you. In reality when my endodontist sold his practice to someone new- I just referred to my other endo because I just didn't know the buyer and I didn't hit it off well with him.

So what mostly happens is specialists do starts-ups and or buy into partnerships where they have to work up patients and reputation and specialist/gp referall relationships before they start hitting their stride....while the GP that buys into a 1 mil+ practice already hit his stride and making OS money year 2 of practicing.

So like Tanman stated- what a GP does in their first few years out- does matter. Honestly- a person who just jumps in and can manage a 1-2million dollar GP practice- will be light years ahead in opportunity cost. As stated " If you factor in the 4-6 year headstart of a GP that invests their time and money well, I think that a GP owner still wins, because 4-6 years is a long time when it comes to maturity of investments. Most of your money will not come from dentistry. It will be from the invested capital that came from dentistry. " If you are making OS money year 2 of your practice and have invested it in the past few years of the stock market run- you are way ahead then the average person. Just some information for thought.

That's a very fair way to put it, but a few things I would like to note is that it would be very difficult for a new grad to even get a loan to purchase a 1-2 million dollar practice, let alone being able to manage it. Most likely he will need to work for 3-4 years, save up for a down payment and then make the leap, unless banks are more generous than I thought. Of course an ambitious GP can start a practice from scratch and build it to a very large practice, like some posters have done here (Cold Front, Tan Man etc.) Those dudes will be making OMFS money. But for every GP out there producing 1 mil +, there will be a proportionally similar amount of OMFS producing 1.5-2 mil +.

I think where the GP comes out ahead would be business. It's a lot more common for GP's to have multiple satellite practices for multiple passive income streams than a specialist I would presume. It would be weird to see a specialist hire a hygenist for passive income, that just doesn't seem like it would work. Whereas GP's have more passive income opportunities. And of course the head start on investing, with compounding interest the numbers can skyrocket fast.

OP should do what he likes more. But 34 is definitely not too old. You still have a whole 30 years or so to work. I've heard that surgery residents only survive residency because that stuff gives them a boner.

 

[charlestweed]

Of course, it has to do with making more money. Nobody is that crazy to spend extra 4-6 years for OS residency just to make the same as the GPs. By getting paid 3-4 times more, an OS can easily catch up with a GP, who graduated 4-6 years before him, in just a few years. I don't know the reasons why my colleagues decided to specialize but for me, I specialized because I wanted to make more. Who doesn’t want to make more and work less?

For a GP to earn the same income, he has to work a lot harder: more patients per day and more work hours per day. He has to be fast, he has to have good multitask ability, and he has to hire associate(s) to help him to treat much higher volume of patients in a day. It takes a GP 10-15 minutes to do a filing or cleaning and get paid $100-200 for each procedure. It takes an OS 20-30 minutes to take out 4 wisdom teeth or to place 1-2 implants and make $1500-2000 for each of these procedures. An OS can book 4-5 of these cases a day and produce $8-10K a day…works a few days a week at his own office…and travels to other GP/Corp offices (that will save patients for him) the other days of the week to make even more $$$.

The reason my wife’s GP boss has done extremely well is he hires OS, perio, pedo, pedo, and recently ortho to work for him. He gets 50% of whatever his in-house specialists produce…that’s passive income for him. Being a boss, he gets to pick and choose the procedures he wants to do and he lets his associate GP (who is his niece) perform the procedures he hates. He is a great business man. Not every dentist is good like him...like Coldfront or like Tanman. An OS can travel to multiple GP and corp offices and still make a lot more than a lot of GP owners, if he doesn’t want to set up his own office.

 

[periopocket]

And this is where you begin to learn more.

Type in your zip code + dental practice for sale. Chances are you will find MANY general practices for sale on middle end...low end...and high end.

So I looked up my the most popular broker in my location:
On one brokers page, there are 15 general practices for sale. 3 of them for sale that are collecting over 1 million. One is doing 2 million.

There is only one specialty practice for sale that is collecting below 650k.

What I'm saying is that you can easily buy a practice that collects and nets the same as the OMFS practice. Yes you have a 10 year note, but it will get paid back. Dentistry has less then 1% failure rates. It's not that hard. The thing with General Practices is that most are built on goodwill- meaning you buy the patient's chart and the doctor's name to it. These patients will come back and give you a shot. As long as you are a good person- they will come back.

What about specialty practices- why aren't more of them on sale? Well for one- less specialists. Two, no goodwill- meaning that you are built on your reputation and your relationships with your GP's rather then your patients. As an OMFS you aren't going to be seeing the same patients every 6 months recall. So to buy a practice is literally...gambling because you are hoping that the existing referals will continue to refer to you. In reality when my endodontist sold his practice to someone new- I just referred to my other endo because I just didn't know the buyer and I didn't hit it off well with him.

So what mostly happens is specialists do starts-ups and or buy into partnerships where they have to work up patients and reputation and specialist/gp referall relationships before they start hitting their stride....while the GP that buys into a 1 mil+ practice already hit his stride and making OS money year 2 of practicing.

So like Tanman stated- what a GP does in their first few years out- does matter. Honestly- a person who just jumps in and can manage a 1-2million dollar GP practice- will be light years ahead in opportunity cost. As stated " If you factor in the 4-6 year headstart of a GP that invests their time and money well, I think that a GP owner still wins, because 4-6 years is a long time when it comes to maturity of investments. Most of your money will not come from dentistry. It will be from the invested capital that came from dentistry. " If you are making OS money year 2 of your practice and have invested it in the past few years of the stock market run- you are way ahead then the average person. Just some information for thought.

Hey Rainee, thanks for posting on here. What could of the new endodontist have done differently to gain vs lose your referrals. Any other advice for a specialist transition. Thanks

 

[charlestweed]

I think where the GP comes out ahead would be business. It's a lot more common for GP's to have multiple satellite practices for multiple passive income streams than a specialist I would presume. It would be weird to see a specialist hire a hygenist for passive income, that just doesn't seem like it would work. Whereas GP's have more passive income opportunities. And of course the head start on investing, with compounding interest the numbers can skyrocket fast.

Some perio offices hire hygienists. Most orthodontists hire assistants to do 90% of work for them. One ortho assistant can see 15 or more patients per day. Without the assistants, the orthodontists cannot see 60+ patients a day.

 

[TanMan]

I think the fundamental assumption here is that everyone is going to work until 60+. If that's the case, then the OS definitely has a lot more time to catch up to the GP. If the cutoff was 40, then the OS will have a harder time catching up to the GP that had a 4-6 year headstart. We have to look at the context of how long you plan to work. If you plan to work most of your life, then being a specialist may make more sense. If you want to finish as early as possible, GP could make more sense as long as you're willing to own, produce, and/or replicate.

 

[vellnueve]

Yeah but most people don’t retire at 40

 

[bld]

I think the fundamental assumption here is that everyone is going to work until 60+. If that's the case, then the OS definitely has a lot more time to catch up to the GP. If the cutoff was 40, then the OS will have a harder time catching up to the GP that had a 4-6 year headstart. We have to look at the context of how long you plan to work. If you plan to work most of your life, then being a specialist may make more sense. If you want to finish as early as possible, GP could make more sense as long as you're willing to own, produce, and/or replicate.

Maybe this is the disconnect in the conversation. I fully plan on working well into my sixties because I find what I do fulfilling and gratifying in and of itself. Like others have said, it comes down to personal preference and life philosophy more than anything.

 

[321931]

Maybe this is the disconnect in the conversation. I fully plan on working well into my sixties because I find what I do fulfilling and gratifying in and of itself. Like others have said, it comes down to personal preference and life philosophy more than anything.

I see, that makes more sense. I plan to be financially free before 40. I've seen to many people get cancer, pass away early. Stage 3 cancer at 46 out of nowhere. Heartattack at 52 out of nowhere. Car accident before 21. When you see 2000+ patients a year, you sometimes see sad things happen.

Makes you appreciate life, and make the most of it while we are still here. There is no guarantee we will be around to live out our 60's, and even if we do- there is no guarantee we will be healthy enough to practice. I've seen younger dentists retire early because of back/hand/eye injuries.

So honestly my philosophy is to work hard, and play hard, and save enough to make the most of life.

 

[Vokalyzd]

I got into OMFS as a business investment. 4 years of my life to increase my earning potential 2-5x doing GP work. I find myself enjoying residency way more than I have ever enjoyed being a GP (did 1 year of AEGD). The hours are long and hard. The residency challenges you both mentally and physically. Are days in which I find myself jealous of my GP friends? Sure. At the end of the day though, I have zero regret applying myself 100% to OMFS. Working in a hospital is a different beast altogether. I have learned things and have experience opportunities no GP will ever have. It has made me a better doctor and a better person. Yes, I will never deny that OMFS will bring in more money for me over my lifetime as an individual but the character development and personal growth are more than worth the sacrifice. I say this into my 3rd year of long distance with my wife. if you're not willing to sacrifice your personal life, OMFS is not for you. If you are willing to take a 4 year hit to your early 30s, OMFS will pay dividends, and more than just financially.

 

[ibuprofen400mg]

You will make plenty of money either as GP or OS. No need for in depth financial analysis on opportunity cost. 🙄

 

[desertrat12]

Thanks everyone for the responses, they have been super helpful. Always good to see things from multiple points of view.

Being able to do the work of an oral surgeon is what excites me professionally. Being around the oral surgery staff, listening about their cases, being in the OR (though my time is extremely limited), these are what I've enjoyed most about dental school. All that said, I still have enjoyed the restorative work I've been able to do. And while I have not liked the class 2 preps I've done, I imagine I will dislike them less the faster I get.

All in all, the older I get the more I've realized I'm generally a happy person and looking back realize I've been happy doing just about whatever. So it makes me wonder if I can spare my family the 4 years of residency, miss out on what I actually want to do, but still be able to maintain a small slice of it through dentoalveolar surgery CE/implants/etc and have a satisfying career.

 

[TanMan]

I see, that makes more sense. I plan to be financially free before 40. I've seen to many people get cancer, pass away early. Stage 3 cancer at 46 out of nowhere. Heartattack at 52 out of nowhere. Car accident before 21. When you see 2000+ patients a year, you sometimes see sad things happen.

Makes you appreciate life, and make the most of it while we are still here. There is no guarantee we will be around to live out our 60's, and even if we do- there is no guarantee we will be healthy enough to practice. I've seen younger dentists retire early because of back/hand/eye injuries.

So honestly my philosophy is to work hard, and play hard, and save enough to make the most of life.

Exactly. The older you get, the more likely these morbidities and disasters strike.

The other financial aspect to remember is how much money is enough? After 1-2 million per year, you have to see how much more you have to work to keep producing each extra million and whether it starts infringing on your lifestyle without any additional gains Although I'd like to make more (who wouldn't?), there's diminishing lifestyle returns for each additional million you make per year. However, if an OS can produce 3-4/year, work a few years, they can retire within a few years. Just remember, money is the means, not the ends.

 

[2TH MVR]

I plan to be financially free before 40. I've seen to many people get cancer, pass away early.

Makes you appreciate life, and make the most of it while we are still here. There is no guarantee we will be around to live out our 60's, and even if we do- there is no guarantee we will be healthy enough to practice. I've seen younger dentists retire early because of back/hand/eye injuries.

So honestly my philosophy is to work hard, and play hard, and save enough to make the most of life.

Playing hard and planning to be financially free before 40 can be opposing forces. Depends on how you define "play hard" lol. When you make decent money ..... sometimes it's hard not to spend money on fun items. So .... I've said this many times .... had I not INDULGED on fun things ..... I probably could have retired in my late 40's. But I would have missed out on all those fun memories. So yes .... your plan to retire at 40 is a good plan, but remember. Life tends to get in the way. Things happen. It goes both ways. You could save, save .... work, work hard and finally be able to retire in your 40's ....and then get hit by a car.
Now of course I saved retirement $$ during those years, but it could have been alot more had I been "thrifty", but where's the fun in that. 😉

So the message is. Work hard. Save for retirement. But have fun along the way. You can't buy back those years or memories.

Thanks everyone for the responses, they have been super helpful. Always good to see things from multiple points of view.

Being able to do the work of an oral surgeon is what excites me professionally. Being around the oral surgery staff, listening about their cases, being in the OR (though my time is extremely limited), these are what I've enjoyed most about dental school. All that said, I still have enjoyed the restorative work I've been able to do. And while I have not liked the class 2 preps I've done, I imagine I will dislike them less the faster I get.

All in all, the older I get the more I've realized I'm generally a happy person and looking back realize I've been happy doing just about whatever. So it makes me wonder if I can spare my family the 4 years of residency, miss out on what I actually want to do, but still be able to maintain a small slice of it through dentoalveolar surgery CE/implants/etc and have a satisfying career.

Good for you. Sounds like you are well grounded. Like you said .... there are plenty of OS stuff you can do as a GP.
Remember that a satisfying career is improving the lives of your patients. Whether that is placing an implant, straightening some teeth, or your favorite .... class 2 restorations 😀.

 

[desertrat12]

Exactly. The older you get, the more likely these morbidities and disasters strike.

The other financial aspect to remember is how much money is enough? After 1-2 million per year, you have to see how much more you have to work to keep producing each extra million and whether it starts infringing on your lifestyle without any additional gains Although I'd like to make more (who wouldn't?), there's diminishing lifestyle returns for each additional million you make per year. However, if an OS can produce 3-4/year, work a few years, they can retire within a few years. Just remember, money is the means, not the ends.

Wow this is much more than I have anticipated making, but awesome to hear the possibility. We're lucky to have someone inspiring like TanMan around. I can't even imagine being in a situation where I might say, "you know, I could make an extra million but...the diminishing returns..." ... I know some get a little uptight when a conversation focuses on money, but it seems to me that making a good living only allows someone to give back more, practice the dentistry they enjoy, and take care of others - assuming they are a decent person to begin with. I was once interacting with the wealthiest person I personally know, we were chatting about careers and being financially stable and he said "You know, they say money doesn't buy happiness, but all the things that were making me sad seemed to go away when I started making more money." There was sarcasm behind that, but also a lot of truth I think.

 

[desertrat12]

Good for you. Sounds like you are well grounded. Like you said .... there are plenty of OS stuff you can do as a GP.
Remember that a satisfying career is improving the lives of your patients. Whether that is placing an implant, straightening some teeth, or your favorite .... class 2 restorations 😀.

Appreciate your comments. Its easy to get caught up in other things and fail to remember that we have the privilege of genuinely helping others. Early financial indepence seems to be in style nowadays, and I can totally understand why, but I really hope I can balance enjoying the practice dentistry - whether it be general practice or oral surgery - with aggressively saving/investing for the future.

 

[321931]

Wow this is much more than I have anticipated making, but awesome to hear the possibility. We're lucky to have someone inspiring like TanMan around. I can't even imagine being in a situation where I might say, "you know, I could make an extra million but...the diminishing returns..." ... I know some get a little uptight when a conversation focuses on money, but it seems to me that making a good living only allows someone to give back more, practice the dentistry they enjoy, and take care of others - assuming they are a decent person to begin with. I was once interacting with the wealthiest person I personally know, we were chatting about careers and being financially stable and he said "You know, they say money doesn't buy happiness, but all the things that were making me sad seemed to go away when I started making more money." There was sarcasm behind that, but also a lot of truth I think.

Ironically... in today’s world, the money is in computer science and all those tech-y degrees.

Money is nice, but dentistry will make you comfortable. Rarely will it make you rich.

 

[desertrat12]

Ironically... in today’s world, the money is in computer science and all those tech-y degrees.

Money is nice, but dentistry will make you comfortable. Rarely will it make you rich.

About 8 yrs ago a buddy of mine told me he was going into computer science because their starting salary out of school was pretty good. I thought he was crazy. Coming from a small town where doctors and dentists were the ones making the money, I thought he was ridiculous to pursue computer science. Well he went on to join a start up and doing very well...maybe I should have listened to him a bit more.

 

[desertrat12]

Ironically... in today’s world, the money is in computer science and all those tech-y degrees.

Money is nice, but dentistry will make you comfortable. Rarely will it make you rich.

I’ve noticed this as well as I’ve shadowed and spent more time around dentists. Most are comfortable, but only a few are “rich”, and that money came from other ventures that were started with their dental money.

Curious, what in your mind continues as rich?

 

[TanMan]

Wow this is much more than I have anticipated making, but awesome to hear the possibility. We're lucky to have someone inspiring like TanMan around. I can't even imagine being in a situation where I might say, "you know, I could make an extra million but...the diminishing returns..." ... I know some get a little uptight when a conversation focuses on money, but it seems to me that making a good living only allows someone to give back more, practice the dentistry they enjoy, and take care of others - assuming they are a decent person to begin with. I was once interacting with the wealthiest person I personally know, we were chatting about careers and being financially stable and he said "You know, they say money doesn't buy happiness, but all the things that were making me sad seemed to go away when I started making more money." There was sarcasm behind that, but also a lot of truth I think.

Yes, you really have to evaluate lifestyle upgrades that come with increased incomes. This is why I don't think the lifestyle changes much with each additional million/year, because the upgrade costs are significantly higher and I don't think it's worth working that much harder to obtain the life of the 1%.

Looking at travel: Lets assume you want to travel long haul, first class once a month somewhere (exclude RTW trips). That's about 10-15k on average per person. Want to dine somewhere fancy every day? 250-500/day * 30 (much more if you consume tons of alcohol or get a wine pairing with every meal) - 15k/month. Want to stay somewhere nice every day as well? For a 1 bedroom basic suite, lets say average is 500/day * 30days, another 15k/month (although rates can run high in peak demand, some 1 bedroom suites can run about 2k/day). This doesn't include any other expenses, this is just flight, food, housing. If you wanted to upgrade flights, your next step up is private, which can run 3-10k/hour. For domestic, this might be worth it for some people; for international, it doesn't make as much sense since longhaul widebodies in first class are much roomier with more amenities. Food, I'm not really sure what else you can do to upgrade. For rooms, do you really need a 2-25k multibedroom suite if it's just you and/or your significant other? I got upgraded once to a 2 bedroom suite. There was no point since I had no use for the other room.

Same deal for cars. I can only drive one at a time. I can buy only so many cars until I need more storage space, then maintain all the cars, and all the "perks, aka maintenance costs" of ownership without being to drive all of them. It's annoying when you don't have enough space on your property and have to move cars just to get the car you want to drive that day. You end up having to buy additional property just to expand your car storage space. You could always buy hypercars if that suits your fancy, but again, look at the leap and the gain. Supercars are 200-500k, Hypercars are 1-2MM+, do you really get much more benefit by having going up the next level? For me, not really.

This is just two examples where that extra million per year doesn't necessarily add tremendously more value to what you can experience. I can go on with other "lifestyle upgrades". Now, you could save it for the future, save it for your kids, etc... but if you have no kids, everything paid off, low maintenance costs, then you could spend the rest of your life accumulating wealth with no direction of what to do with it as you get older. If you have large aspirations, then by all means, pursue what you aspire to accomplish with a lot of money. There's one thing you can't buy though... your youthful years back.

This is why I'm not really shooting for the stars when it comes to my target retirement income. I just want enough assets to generate a moderately nice lifestyle. I don't need private jets, a fleet of vehicles, a bunch of vacation homes, etc... I'm ok with living in semi-luxury.

 

[umdnj101]

Really good discussion here! No dentist I know is retiring early despite whatever money they have in the bank...in fact many come out of retirement because they are bored! If you truly love dentistry you won’t give it up until
Your deathbed. On the contrary I’ve known people who’ve quit dentistry all together.

As for an opportunity cost analysis, you’re looking too much into money in the short term. Yes you will lose out on gp income during residency but you will be gaining invaluable skills And knowledge In omfs. When you get out residency, on the low end you’ll be earning what the best gp associate can make. When you just think about %, a specialist is paid 40-50% of production whereas a gp is 25- 35%. Your specialists fee schedules are always 20-35% more and you will be primarily doing high costing procedures only. It doesn’t hurt that most cases are already sold by the general dentist for you. In the end it’s up to you whether you think sacrificing a few years is worth it to you. All my buddies in omfs residency moon lighted btw and made good income on the side chucking teeth and placing implants. Read the forums on dentaltown, it’s almost a consensus that if you’re accepted into residency then jump on it and don’t look back. Good luck!

 

[desertrat12]

Really good discussion here! No dentist I know is retiring early despite whatever money they have in the bank...in fact many come out of retirement because they are bored! If you truly love dentistry you won’t give it up until
Your deathbed. On the contrary I’ve known people who’ve quit dentistry all together.

As for an opportunity cost analysis, you’re looking too much into money in the short term. Yes you will lose out on gp income during residency but you will be gaining invaluable skills And knowledge In omfs. When you get out residency, on the low end you’ll be earning what the best gp associate can make. When you just think about %, a specialist is paid 40-50% of production whereas a gp is 25- 35%. Your specialists fee schedules are always 20-35% more and you will be primarily doing high costing procedures only. It doesn’t hurt that most cases are already sold by the general dentist for you. In the end it’s up to you whether you think sacrificing a few years is worth it to you. All my buddies in omfs residency moon lighted btw and made good income on the side chucking teeth and placing implants. Read the forums on dentaltown, it’s almost a consensus that if you’re accepted into residency then jump on it and don’t look back. Good luck!

Thanks for the comments! Moonlighting is something I hadn’t considered. I guess I just assumed the surgery residency would be too full to do any, but that great to hear it’s being done. That would certainly help out.

 

[321931]

I’ve noticed this as well as I’ve shadowed and spent more time around dentists. Most are comfortable, but only a few are “rich”, and that money came from other ventures that were started with their dental money.

Curious, what in your mind continues as rich?

As a dentist, you will be comfortable buying a nice bmw, maybe a weekend 3-5 year Porsche 911 that you saved up years for that is a base model 911 (100k), be able to travel the world 3-4 times a year, have no problems trying out the Michelin restaurants and have no worry about meeting a mortgage of a 500-1mil house.

Very comfortable middle to upper middle class.

But rich? That’s another level where we talk about 5 mil homes. Maybe a few million dollar condos that you rent out for passive income on top of your big house. Being able to buy a new Porsche 911 GT3 (the 150-200k+ models) every other year and not feeling the pinch. Having a 10 mil lake house with a Ferrari and your beater Audi A8L parked outside. Being able to take first class 20000$ tickets to Asia and not feel it affected you.

Once you start making decent money- you will understand that dentists are just upper middle class at best but to get to the next level of rich requires luck and hard work and possibly a whole different career.

The richest dentists I know are:
Multiple practice owner- owns 6 practices and owns the buildings but he bought everything before our current economy. It’s going to be hard to make a 6 practice own everything practice with today’s overpriced environment
One other guy bought a ton of commercial property back during the great financial crisis along with stocks

But these opportunities don’t exist anymore. A starter home costs 500k nowadays. Commercial property in the millions. Stocks are all overvalued. Pretty much everything is though.

 

[TanMan]

Really good discussion here! No dentist I know is retiring early despite whatever money they have in the bank...in fact many come out of retirement because they are bored! If you truly love dentistry you won’t give it up until
Your deathbed. On the contrary I’ve known people who’ve quit dentistry all together.

As for an opportunity cost analysis, you’re looking too much into money in the short term. Yes you will lose out on gp income during residency but you will be gaining invaluable skills And knowledge In omfs. When you get out residency, on the low end you’ll be earning what the best gp associate can make. When you just think about %, a specialist is paid 40-50% of production whereas a gp is 25- 35%. Your specialists fee schedules are always 20-35% more and you will be primarily doing high costing procedures only. It doesn’t hurt that most cases are already sold by the general dentist for you. In the end it’s up to you whether you think sacrificing a few years is worth it to you. All my buddies in omfs residency moon lighted btw and made good income on the side chucking teeth and placing implants. Read the forums on dentaltown, it’s almost a consensus that if you’re accepted into residency then jump on it and don’t look back. Good luck!

I think the big question to ask practicing OS's is how their income levels ramp up (from an associate and owner perpsective). From an associate perspective, is there pay stagnation (are you stuck taking home 600k+ or is the sky the limit?) and from an owner perspective, how long does it take to maximize your practice (is it really fast, within a year or two, or will it take a decade or more?). I think these are important considerations. So far, the discussion has been that a specialist can make a lot more than a GP, but in what context? From the context of an associate, starting out, in the peak of the career, or overall earnings. I'd want to know how long it takes to ramp up to a 7-10+/year practice as an OS.

As a dentist, you will be comfortable buying a nice bmw, maybe a weekend 3-5 year Porsche 911 that you saved up years for that is a base model 911 (100k), be able to travel the world 3-4 times a year, have no problems trying out the Michelin restaurants and have no worry about meeting a mortgage of a 500-1mil house.

Very comfortable middle to upper middle class.

But rich? That’s another level where we talk about 5 mil homes. Maybe a few million dollar condos that you rent out for passive income on top of your big house. Being able to buy a new Porsche 911 GT3 (the 150-200k+ models) every other year and not feeling the pinch. Having a 10 mil lake house with a Ferrari and your beater Audi A8L parked outside. Being able to take first class 20000$ tickets to Asia and not feel it affected you.

Once you start making decent money- you will understand that dentists are just upper middle class at best but to get to the next level of rich requires luck and hard work and possibly a whole different career.

The richest dentists I know are:
Multiple practice owner- owns 6 practices and owns the buildings but he bought everything before our current economy. It’s going to be hard to make a 6 practice own everything practice with today’s overpriced environment
One other guy bought a ton of commercial property back during the great financial crisis along with stocks

But these opportunities don’t exist anymore. A starter home costs 500k nowadays. Commercial property in the millions. Stocks are all overvalued. Pretty much everything is though.

This is why I think there are limits to how much more happiness can be bought with money. Be content with what you have and all these highly priced personal assets won't necessarily bring you more happiness. Ask yourself why you need so many cars? Do you really want more cars because you like them? I'm very particular when it comes to what I like, and I only see myself wanting a few cars. Why would you need more than a few vehicles of each class; 1-2 nice vehicles in each class should be sufficient depending on the number on each household.

Same thing with a big house, why would you need so many rooms in a house? Many of these creature comforts become superfluous to the point where it becomes a chore to have/own. And before someone chimes in about how money helps your loved ones and such, it's a short lived happiness to do things for others financially.

The one spluge that I think is worth it is flights in First/Business. Nothing beats starting your vacation off in the right foot by being able to sleep well and arriving at your destination well rested and showered (with certain carriers that have showers in the plane), rather than starting/ending your vacation more tired than when you first started. Also, if you working right after you land, it makes sense to fly First/Business since you are able to work and produce immediately after you land. I hate vacations where I'm more tired than when I first started, and part of that fatigue is the flight. Flying in cattle class is just horrible these days.

Perhaps it's my priorities and a little bit jaded, but I think that experiences are more important than many of the tangible assets and material goods that money can buy. Unfortunately, to have these nice experiences requires a lot of money in life, and if you're working, you can't do what you want to do. That's why I believe in early retirement and setting yourself up so that you don't have to actively work for the rest of your life. Being debt free, having your properties fully paid, free flowing disposable income without having to do anything and not being bound by the need to make money is probably the best feeling in the world.

 

[321931]

Ironically I’m total opposite. I always fly economy. I find vehicles and airfare the same. Yes a bmw 7 series is nice and so is first class, but a Honda CR-V and a economy ticket will get you to the same place at most likely the same time. What’s the point of a Audi RS7 or Porsche 911 if you can only go 45 mph on service roads. No thanks.

Whenever I fly Europe/Asia I stay up the night before and when I get on the plane... I knock out like a baby. A drink always helps.

5 min later I’m awake and in London or Asia. I never have trouble falling asleep.

 

[charlestweed]

Once you drive the BMW 7 series and other cars that have comparable qualities, it's hard to go back to drive a Honda. Comfort ride, good handling, strong road grip and safety etc are very important to me, especially with small kids sitting in the back. Driving is stressful. With the autopilot feature in a car, long daily commute is no longer an issue. I used to have plan to buy a retirement house that is closer to my office so I won't have to drive too far to work when I get older. But with the self driving autopilot technology (and it keeps getting better over the years) in some luxury cars, I can live where I want to retire. I don't have to live near my offices. All my offices are located in lower income cities.

When you have a nice car, you tend to find excuses to get out of the house more often 😉😀.