help! Case Western vs State School

[balloons]

So this is my dilemma—I am currently choosing between Case Western (#25 Research) and a state school (Top 50 research school). I am absolutely in love with Case but my state school is significantly cheaper. Going to Case would put me ~$170K I debt vs. my state school which would put me ~$44 - $64K in debt. Also, Case gave me mostly unsubsidized loans and my state school gave me mostly subsidized loans. As far as location goes, I would love to leave my state, since I have been here for all my life. These are the pros and cons of each school:

State School:
Lecture curriculum (8-4p)—lectures are videotaped, Grading system: Honors/Pass/Fail, ~85% of lecture = test material
Rotations start 3rd year (curriculum is changing and more electives may be available 3rd year)
Most students do rotations at main hospital
Very highly ranked for primary care (I am more interested in clinical medicine and not so much in research)
No thesis built into the curriculum

Case:
Classes are from 8-12p everyday with Thursdays off (2 hours PBL, 2 hours lecture a day—rest of day off for "self-directed learning" (based on objectives provided in lecture and PBL), Grading system: Pass/Fail
Rotations start halfway through second year
Students can rotate at Rainbow Babies Hospital, Cleveland Clinic, or University Hospitals
Thesis requirement (4 months off of school to do this)
Primary care ~31

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

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[searun]

I like Case - I was accepted to Case. But I would not incur an extra $100,000 plus debt to attend Case. You will have the same residency options when you graduate from your state school if you do well. You will be glad you attended your state school when you start writing those checks to pay back your loans.

 

[Appless]

youre not interested in research and you will save over 100k+...the choice seems extremely easy go to the state school.

 

[RoadRunner17]

So this is my dilemma—I am currently choosing between Case Western (#25 Research) and a state school (Top 50 research school). I am absolutely in love with Case but my state school is significantly cheaper. Going to Case would put me ~$170K I debt vs. my state school which would put me ~$44 - $64K in debt. Also, Case gave me mostly unsubsidized loans and my state school gave me mostly subsidized loans. As far as location goes, I would love to leave my state, since I have been here for all my life. These are the pros and cons of each school:

State School:
Lecture curriculum (8-4p)—lectures are videotaped, Grading system: Honors/Pass/Fail, ~85% of lecture = test material
Rotations start 3rd year (curriculum is changing and more electives may be available 3rd year)
Most students do rotations at main hospital
Very highly ranked for primary care (I am more interested in clinical medicine and not so much in research)
No thesis built into the curriculum

Case:
Classes are from 8-12p everyday with Thursdays off (2 hours PBL, 2 hours lecture a day—rest of day off for “self-directed learning” (based on objectives provided in lecture and PBL), Grading system: Pass/Fail
Rotations start halfway through second year
Students can rotate at Rainbow Babies Hospital, Cleveland Clinic, or University Hospitals
Thesis requirement (4 months off of school to do this)
Primary care ~31

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

What state school is this? You can always move out of the state for residency.

I'm in a similar situation (I'm OOS for the state school, but it is still significantly cheaper), but I've already worked out the $'s and pros and cons. I haven't gotten my financial aid packet from Case but I am operating on the assumption that Case won't give me anything substantial. It's a significant difference in debt (it's a difference of $2,000/month for 10 years in paying off the debt). Case is an excellent school and I love it, but it doesn't make sense to go into all that debt when you can go to a school that is also excellent and may even fit you better.

If I were you, I'd crunch the numbers and see how long it's going to take to pay off the debt at Case vs the state school. I think the numbers will speak for themselves.

 

[balloons]

What state school is this? You can always move out of the state for residency.

I'm in a similar situation (I'm OOS for the state school, but it is still significantly cheaper), but I've already worked out the $'s and pros and cons. I haven't gotten my financial aid packet from Case but I am operating on the assumption that Case won't give me anything substantial. It's a significant difference in debt (it's a difference of $2,000/month for 10 years in paying off the debt). Case is an excellent school and I love it, but it doesn't make sense to go into all that debt when you can go to a school that is also excellent and may even fit you better.

If I were you, I'd crunch the numbers and see how long it's going to take to pay off the debt at Case vs the state school. I think the numbers will speak for themselves.

I actually did the number crunching thing multiple times but was only able to bring my Case debt down to about $155,000 (and that's living extremely frugally). I was thinking that I could apply for scholarships to minimize my debt but I don't think there are very many scholarships for med school (at least on the internet). If I start paying off my debt (from my state school) in residency , I could graduate with no loans. I know the decision seems easier but I really love Case

 

[RoadRunner17]

I actually did the number crunching thing multiple times but was only able to bring my Case debt down to about $155,000 (and that's living extremely frugally). I was thinking that I could apply for scholarships to minimize my debt but I don't think there are very many scholarships for med school (at least on the internet). If I start paying off my debt (from my state school) in residency , I could graduate with no loans. I know the decision seems easier but I really love Case

Oh, what I meant by crunching the numbers was to look at how much debt you will be in, and then look at how the interest compounds and is capitalized, and ultimately looking at how long it's going to take for you to pay the debt off.

On the full COA from Case, it's going to be about $4,500/month for 10 years after residency to fully pay off the loans. That's about $50,000 a year. Can you really afford to do that? I doubt it.. we're looking at a 20-25 year repayment schedule, and that means even more debt to pay off. It's just not that financially feasible unless you win the lottery.. contrast that with your state school - you will most likely be able to pay everything off within 3-4 years after residency.

I feel your pain dude. I really love both Case and the people there, and I think it's a great fit for my learning style. But I would be just as well off at the other state school which is also similarly ranked and regarded.. and is a better fit in terms of student support and other personal factors.

 

[chiz2kul]

I like Case - I was accepted to Case. But I would not incur an extra $100,000 plus debt to attend Case. You will have the same residency options when you graduate from your state school if you do well. You will be glad you attended your state school when you start writing those checks to pay back your loans.

What state school is this? You can always move out of the state for residency.

I'm in a similar situation (I'm OOS for the state school, but it is still significantly cheaper), but I've already worked out the $'s and pros and cons. I haven't gotten my financial aid packet from Case but I am operating on the assumption that Case won't give me anything substantial. It's a significant difference in debt (it's a difference of $2,000/month for 10 years in paying off the debt). Case is an excellent school and I love it, but it doesn't make sense to go into all that debt when you can go to a school that is also excellent and may even fit you better.

If I were you, I'd crunch the numbers and see how long it's going to take to pay off the debt at Case vs the state school. I think the numbers will speak for themselves.

You speak my mind. I was accepted to case too, I love that school sooo much...but it all boils down to the $$$ for me. Its just too expensive.

 

[funkydrmonkey]

So this is my dilemma—I am currently choosing between Case Western (#25 Research) and a state school (Top 50 research school). I am absolutely in love with Case but my state school is significantly cheaper. Going to Case would put me ~$170K I debt vs. my state school which would put me ~$44 - $64K in debt. Also, Case gave me mostly unsubsidized loans and my state school gave me mostly subsidized loans. As far as location goes, I would love to leave my state, since I have been here for all my life. These are the pros and cons of each school:

State School:
Lecture curriculum (8-4p)—lectures are videotaped, Grading system: Honors/Pass/Fail, ~85% of lecture = test material
Rotations start 3rd year (curriculum is changing and more electives may be available 3rd year)
Most students do rotations at main hospital
Very highly ranked for primary care (I am more interested in clinical medicine and not so much in research)
No thesis built into the curriculum

Case:
Classes are from 8-12p everyday with Thursdays off (2 hours PBL, 2 hours lecture a day—rest of day off for “self-directed learning” (based on objectives provided in lecture and PBL), Grading system: Pass/Fail
Rotations start halfway through second year
Students can rotate at Rainbow Babies Hospital, Cleveland Clinic, or University Hospitals
Thesis requirement (4 months off of school to do this)
Primary care ~31

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Go to UConn.

But I have a random question... Is Case's children's hospital really called Rainbow Babies

 

[balloons]

Go to UConn.

But I have a random question... Is Case's children's hospital really called Rainbow Babies

yup! cute name huh? oh and it's not uconn but you're close

 

[neurolddoc]

The name is

Rainbow
Babies & Children's Hospital

(I'm not sure why there isn't an apostrophe after "Babies" but I'm a doctor not an English teacher)

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, go to your state school. You'll be glad you did ten years from now when you can spend that $100k plus interest on a house or on your family instead of sending it to Sallie Mae. You may be willing to live like a student now, but you will eventually reach a point where you would like to have a comfortable life, maybe have kids, put away some money for retirement, go on nice vacations, etc. The more loans you take out now, the harder it will be for you to do all of that. Med school is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. All accredited American medical schools will prepare you well for a career as a physician. Once you have that MD and go on to residency, no one will care any more where you went to med school.

 

[RoadRunner17]

An update to my earlier post: I'm picking the state school (where I am OOS) over Case. I got 0 in institutional assistance, so it's just not financially feasible.

 

[balloons]

An update to my earlier post: I'm picking the state school (where I am OOS) over Case. I got 0 in institutional assistance, so it's just not financially feasible.

Same here..it's difficult to say no to such a great school but since we have the option of saving tons of money we might as well take advantage of it..*sigh* I'm sure we'll be happier in the end! Good luck at whatever school you're going to!

 

[balloons]

OP, go to your state school. You'll be glad you did ten years from now when you can spend that $100k plus interest on a house or on your family instead of sending it to Sallie Mae. You may be willing to live like a student now, but you will eventually reach a point where you would like to have a comfortable life, maybe have kids, put away some money for retirement, go on nice vacations, etc. The more loans you take out now, the harder it will be for you to do all of that. Med school is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. All accredited American medical schools will prepare you well for a career as a physician. Once you have that MD and go on to residency, no one will care any more where you went to med school.

You are absolutely right..it's so hard because everyone has been telling me to go where my heart tells me (which is Case)..but I think it's also good to be practical..If I decide that I want a residency at one of the hospitals I mentioned earlier then I can always do away rotations to increase my chances of getting into one of those hospitals..as a pre-med it is a bit hard to not look at rankings but I think I'm starting to get over that and be practical..

 

[searun]

The bottom line is that if you do well at any med school in the good old US of A, and get solid scores on Step One, you will have great options. Kick butt third year. No doors are closed. Keep your debt down. Your post med school life will thank you.

 

[QofQuimica]

You are absolutely right..it's so hard because everyone has been telling me to go where my heart tells me (which is Case)..but I think it's also good to be practical..If I decide that I want a residency at one of the hospitals I mentioned earlier then I can always do away rotations to increase my chances of getting into one of those hospitals..as a pre-med it is a bit hard to not look at rankings but I think I'm starting to get over that and be practical..

If you like Case so much, you can always do your residency there, and then you'd at least get paid for it.

All joking aside though, it's mainly other premeds who advise people like you who have a choice to "go where your heart tells you". That's easy for them to say if they've never experienced the reality of taking on six-figure debt and paying it back manyfold. When you're a senior med student/resident/attending and the albatross of those loans is around your neck, you suddenly see things very differently. The decisions you make now about how to spend your money will affect your entire life, not just the next four years while you're in med school. Four years flies by, but the only way you can get out of that educational debt is to pay it all back or die. (Seriously.)

 

[cheasus]

I'm in the same boat, and I will likely choose my state school too. Now I see why case has to accept so many students, its an awesome school but so damn expensive

 

[balloons]

If you like Case so much, you can always do your residency there, and then you'd at least get paid for it.
All joking aside though, it's mainly other premeds who advise people like you who have a choice to "go where your heart tells you". That's easy for them to say if they've never experienced the reality of taking on six-figure debt and paying it back manyfold. When you're a senior med student/resident/attending and the albatross of those loans is around your neck, you suddenly see things very differently. The decisions you make now about how to spend your money will affect your entire life, not just the next four years while you're in med school. Four years flies by, but the only way you can get out of that educational debt is to pay it all back or die. (Seriously.)

That is a very true statement, but don't you think that doing a thesis will increase my chances of a great residency? My state school doesn't allot time for one whereas Case does. Also, Case has 3 great hospitals to rotate through vs my state school which has only 1 I believe.

 

[MegaProjectile]

If the difference were say, $20,000, then I would say go with Case. However, we are talking about $100,000! I'm so envious of your state school being so cheap. Go there. Case sounds great but unless it's Harvard or Hopkins I can't really justify paying more while I had other options.

 

[RoadRunner17]

That is a very true statement, but don't you think that doing a thesis will increase my chances of a great residency? My state school doesn't allot time for one whereas Case does. Also, Case has 3 great hospitals to rotate through vs my state school which has only 1 I believe.

There's no reason why you can't do research and get some stuff published at your state school, either. Or do one of these summer research programs like Doris Duke.

Doesn't your state school have a VA as well? And other community and county hospitals? I mean, your state school has been graduating doctors for a while so it's not like they aren't teaching you the necessary skills and all. Is being able to rotate through Cleveland Clinic worth more than $100,000 in debt? That's really up to you, but I know an additional $64,000 in straight-up debt isn't worth it, especially considering there's 4th year elective time to arrange some away rotations.

 

[balloons]

There's no reason why you can't do research and get some stuff published at your state school, either. Or do one of these summer research programs like Doris Duke.

Doesn't your state school have a VA as well? And other community and county hospitals? I mean, your state school has been graduating doctors for a while so it's not like they aren't teaching you the necessary skills and all. Is being able to rotate through Cleveland Clinic worth more than $100,000 in debt? That's really up to you, but I know an additional $64,000 in straight-up debt isn't worth it, especially considering there's 4th year elective time to arrange some away rotations.

I agree..med school is med school :-( I'll just work like crazy, get AOA, and bang out my USMLEs..thanks for all the advice..bye bye case!

 

[QofQuimica]

That is a very true statement, but don't you think that doing a thesis will increase my chances of a great residency? My state school doesn't allot time for one whereas Case does. Also, Case has 3 great hospitals to rotate through vs my state school which has only 1 I believe.

Not hugely. The things that will most powerfully influence your chances of getting a great residency, however you define that, are high board scores, high clinical grades, kick-a** LORs from high-power people who know you well, and not coming across as a tool on your interviews. If you want to do research, it can't hurt you though. You'll have time during the summer between first and second years, and you can probably also use some of your fourth year elective time. If you really want to do research, you can even take a fifth year (probably involving a LOA from med school). Your state school may also offer an MD/MS option if that interests you; there are many, many opportunities out there for someone like you who wants to do research during med school.

Is being able to rotate through Cleveland Clinic worth more than $100,000 in debt? That's really up to you, but I know an additional $64,000 in straight-up debt isn't worth it, especially considering there's 4th year elective time to arrange some away rotations.

You can still rotate at the Cleveland Clinic or plenty of other hospitals if you want. A lot of people do away rotations fourth year; it's very common. I'm planning to do one myself and will set it up as soon as I decide for sure what specialty I want to enter.

 

[balloons]

Not hugely. The things that will most powerfully influence your chances of getting a great residency, however you define that, are high board scores, high clinical grades, kick-a** LORs from high-power people who know you well, and not coming across as a tool on your interviews. If you want to do research, it can't hurt you though. You'll have time during the summer between first and second years, and you can probably also use some of your fourth year elective time. If you really want to do research, you can even take a fifth year (probably involving a LOA from med school). Your state school may also offer an MD/MS option if that interests you; there are many, many opportunities out there for someone like you who wants to do research during med school.


You can still rotate at the Cleveland Clinic or plenty of other hospitals if you want. A lot of people do away rotations fourth year; it's very common. I'm planning to do one myself and will set it up as soon as I decide for sure what specialty I want to enter.

OK..so I am still considering case a little bit..do you (or anyone else on this thread) know if its feasible to pay $1000/month towards yours loans in residency? if so then I would probably be able to pay off all of my loans within 7-8 yrs of graduating residency

 

[Myuu]

OK..so I am still considering case a little bit..do you (or anyone else on this thread) know if its feasible to pay $1000/month towards yours loans in residency? if so then I would probably be able to pay off all of my loans within 7-8 yrs of graduating residency

Hmm. Average resident salaries by year (2008): http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2005/10/residency-salaries.html

 

[RoadRunner17]

OK..so I am still considering case a little bit..do you (or anyone else on this thread) know if its feasible to pay $1000/month towards yours loans in residency? if so then I would probably be able to pay off all of my loans within 7-8 yrs of graduating residency

In my budget estimates for residency, I did a low estimate of salaries and an overestimate of taxes (PGY-1 starting at $40,000 so $30,000 after taxes, PGY-2 starting at $42,000, PGY-3 starting at $44,000), etc, it was sort of a worst case scenario which could certainly happen if you do residency in a city with a high cost of living. Looking at it this way, you certainly could squeeze out the $1000/month but things will be very tight and you'll be living like a student trying to pay off a couple hundred grand of debt off in 7-8 years. If you have a significant other and kids, the picture gets far more murkier.

 

[balloons]

In my budget estimates for residency, I did a low estimate of salaries and an overestimate of taxes (PGY-1 starting at $40,000 so $30,000 after taxes, PGY-2 starting at $42,000, PGY-3 starting at $44,000), etc, it was sort of a worst case scenario which could certainly happen if you do residency in a city with a high cost of living. Looking at it this way, you certainly could squeeze out the $1000/month but things will be very tight and you'll be living like a student trying to pay off a couple hundred grand of debt off in 7-8 years. If you have a significant other and kids, the picture gets far more murkier.

the reason I would want to start paying loans in residency is because interest on $170K is roughly $13K a year..but you're right about the cost of living and having a family playing a role iin whether or not paying such a huge amount towards by loans during residency is realistic..I do think I'm lucky to be able to go to my state school and graduate virtually debt-free but I also don't want to pick a school based soley on money..I do agree that I will get a great medical education regardless of where I go, but 4 yrs is a long time and being happy where I go will ultimately affect my performance. aren't there programs that help pay back loans if you work in certain underserved communities?

 

[RoadRunner17]

the reason I would want to start paying loans in residency is because interest on $170K is roughly $13K a year..but you're right about the cost of living and having a family playing a role iin whether or not paying such a huge amount towards by loans during residency is realistic..I do think I'm lucky to be able to go to my state school and graduate virtually debt-free but I also don't want to pick a school based soley on money..I do agree that I will get a great medical education regardless of where I go, but 4 yrs is a long time and being happy where I go will ultimately affect my performance. aren't there programs that help pay back loans if you work in certain underserved communities?

I'd say it's doable - I'm thinking about doing the same thing on $195k of debt and paying it off in 9-10 years. But like the saying goes, "man plans, God laughs". It sounds like you are willing to justify the extra cost after reading all of the advice in this thread and crunching the numbers, and you are still willing to go into the debt to go to a research-intensive school in Case. If that is the case, go for it. You don't need other pre-meds to justify your decision for you.