Help! Clinical Focus - PsyD vs. PhD

[coloradocutter]

This may be an obvious answer, but I need some help. A few background points to keep in mind - I am a nontraditional student, early 30's, former attorney with a spouse and small child. I have saved a lot of cash to go towards graduate school. I started to enter grad school a few years ago but didn't have the cash and thought it would be too hard to make the transition from six figures to peanuts.

I do not have any desire to teach except maybe as an lecturer or adjunct. My focus is clinical and consulting maybe some work in program development and design and policy, but I want to work for myself.

Time to completion is a real key factor for me. I am definitley the breadwinner. My spouse is a teacher.

Here are my choices:

PhD program:
- Less than desirable location in small college town in southeast
- 4 + 1 is an option
- Clinically focused program. Most students have 1500-2500 clinical hours at graduation.
- Clinical placements are on site counseling center, behavioral health locations, forensic locations, VA, etc.
- Mentor is wonderful, but I am not super thrilled about his research focus. It's interesting, but takes a unique set of interests - think substance abuse and forensic.
- Match rate is pretty good - 92%
- I really liked the faculty and really connected with my mentor.
- Low cost of living area.
- Near my husband's family.
- Good funding situation $13K-$15K plus any grants.


PsyD program
- Great city (Denver) where I already live and wouldn't have to move my spouse and child.
- Super expensive! $43k a year. I would have to sell my house and even with the money I saved which is a lot, I would have to borrow money to either pay for school or just live. With my expenses (house, childcare), it would probably take $100k at a minimum over 3 years.
- Churns out 48 PsyDs a year. Seems like it would have quite a different feel from a PhD program.
- More nontrads like me.
- 3 + 1 is the norm
- Excellent clinical placements in a major metropolitan area.
- Good match rate at around 90% due to the program having a consortium that is open only to its graduates.

My heart would be happier with the PsyD for many reasons, but since I will be graduating in my late 30's and needing to get out and get started, I think the debt would be crippling despite the shorter time to completion. I like the clinical focus of the PsyD and dread the research aspect of PhD in some ways, but I guess it's the cost of getting a free ride and I might enjoy it more than I think. I would think the PhD gives me more options in the long run for consulting, expert witness work, program and policy work, but I am not sure. Alot of people are telling me PsyD because of my emphasis, but economically it doesn't make sense??

Thanks for any thoughts.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[JockNerd]

I think the debt would be crippling despite the shorter time to completion.

I agree with this part. I think whatever happiness you derive from the other program will be squished by the debt.

But don't get into this "PhD=nothing but research all day" thing. PLENTY of people, even people at pretty research-focused sites, do their masters and their dissertation as simple studies then go practice. Most PhDs go into practice. If the program is openly clinically-focused I'm sure you won't be burned at the stake for liking clinical work more.

And, the PhD program will PAY YOU while the other program wants you to PAY IT. Seems simple... 😉

 

[cara susanna]

I'd go for the PhD program. The thought of having to sell one's house in this market makes me shudder. 🙁

 

[EM132]

The one thing I would ask is... were you honest about your goals and expectations with your POI at the PhD program? I'm a full time research asst. in a clinical PhD lab right now and I know that applicants generally say what the prof want to hear-- "I love research, I want to go into academia" even if that isn't true. One of our grad students who is on internship now was a general disappointment to the lab because she only did "just enough" research. When you're not as invested in the research process you can let down your POI and your fellow students who want to get published; you don't want to be the weak link.

If your POI knows that your focus is clinical and knows what you are hoping to get out of grad school, then you should go for the PhD to alleviate the tremendous costs for your family. If your POI isn't in the loop, I'd consider the PsyD.

Good luck!

 

[GiantSteps]

Coloradocutter,

You did not mention if your husband could find work as a teacher in or near the small southeastern town.

Also, did you check the school situation for you child?

What does your husband think of all of this? I do not think I would do this myself, but I met a grad student who lives attends school in the U.S. while his wife is in another country with their child. They visit each other as much as possible. Actually, with all of the money you save from the Ph.D. and the money you accumulated you could easily leave your child and husband in Colorado and visit them at least once a week and more during breaks. That way, you keep your house, your husband keeps his job, your child stays in the same place, and you get a free education. Obviously, it would be strange not to see your husband and child everyday.

You couldn't get your law firm (I am not sure if you left already) to pay for the Denver School if you agreed to do some work for them?

 

[docma]

PsyD debt can be true albatross and if you have the option of a funded PhD I would not miss it, especially if your husband can find work in the new locale and you have the support of his family while you are absorbed in studenthood. Four years will go by quickly and you could potentially return to Denver for internship. Especially if you want program development, consulting work, etc, the Ph.D is stll the better regarded degree in those areas. You can work with a good POI to find a study that fits your interests/needs. UD is a good a program but the cost differentials would make it a far less desireable choice from my perspective.

 

[psychmama]

This is a tough decision. For me, I'd go with the PsyD in Denver and figure out ways to handle the debt. But that's because I would not want to uproot myself if I didn't have to, and because I really like the PsyD model better than the PhD model (at least the model at GOOD psyd programs).

Despite my mostly subjective feelings, the money difference is compelling. It might come down to how excited you feel about moving to the small southern town with you husband and child. Can you see yourself happy there?

 

[coloradocutter]

Giant Steps - Do you have children? I couldn't do this personally - ever. My husband is not going to have an issue with his work. The money is not great either place, but that's life.

PsychMama - I know - it's tough. The really tough thing is that I have to sell my house in this market if I go to the PhD program. If I can't sell it, I can't go. I have to make the decision about the PysD vs. PhD before that time. So, I could choose the PhD and not be able to sell my house for a decent price and then I can't go anyway. Houses are selling in my area, but it is taking 3 months and buyers are really lowballing. So, I don't know. I will be reasonable, but I won't let someone steal my house.

I think trying to read the future is the toughest part.

 

[psychmama]

Leaving the house issue aside for the moment, does moving appeal to you in other respects?

Would renting your house in the event it cannot sell for a good price be an option?

How much family support will you have in GA vs Denver?

 

[psychmama]

Another thought...is the house in Denver big enough to allow you to rent any of it out while you continue living there? If you could rent a room or two to a student to help defray living costs..? Just a thought...

 

[PsyDr]

if you are really intent on becoming a psychologist, i would say psyd, all the way. for the following reasons:

1) you have the money. although i would encourage you to investigate what your income potential will be directly out of grad school. there is the entire license year, and getting set up, overhead, etc. it will likely take you a few years to get to 100k after graduation. program development is not going to get you there.

2) internship. you will likely have to move your family a minimum of once if you go to the phd. i am betting it would be more like 2x: once for internship, once for post-doc. that sucks. for you, your husband, your kid. if the psyd program can get you into an internship that can maintain some stability for your family, then that seems like a valuable thing.

3) the clinical hours thing at the phd program is a double edged sword. it would help you score a cool internship, but would take more time away from your family and cause you guys to move again. the psyd program sounds more family friendly. you would not have to focus so much on racking up every last possible hour possible.

4) you clearly express a preference for the psyd program. it does not sound like you are picking psychology for financial purposes, as you already had a career. why not go with it?

 

[EM132]

2) internship. you will likely have to move your family a minimum of once if you go to the phd.

I think this poster brings up a good point. If you are considering the PsyD at University of Denver, they do have an exclusive internship consortium so that you could even stay in the Denver area for internship-- about 15 slots each year. Not too shabby.

 

[psychmama]

another point to consider is whether the Psyd program in Denver would be more family friendly, especially if you might have plans to expand your family during your grad school years.

 

[coloradocutter]

Leaving the house issue aside for the moment, does moving appeal to you in other respects?

Would renting your house in the event it cannot sell for a good price be an option?

How much family support will you have in GA vs Denver?

Psychmama -

(1) Moving does not appeal to me generally. We love Colorado, but Colorado is expensive and 1500 miles away from all of our family. My husband has a brother in law here, but we rarely see him. My husband's parents will never move, but mine likely would move here. My husband's parents are older than mine, so he is probably looking forward to moving. I just love Colorado so much. I have never lived anywhere where I looked forward to coming back to when I am on vacation.

(2) Renting would be an option - we are going to try this after 2 weeks of listing it. We have a nice home though, and with Colorado housing prices are mortgage is not chump change, so it will be a challenge.

(3) Family support - we will have more family support with the PhD program locale. My family is 5 hours. His is 2 hours in either direction. My dad has hinted at moving to Colorado, but he is probably a while from that.

 

[coloradocutter]

if you are really intent on becoming a psychologist, i would say psyd, all the way. for the following reasons:

1) you have the money. although i would encourage you to investigate what your income potential will be directly out of grad school. there is the entire license year, and getting set up, overhead, etc. it will likely take you a few years to get to 100k after graduation. program development is not going to get you there.

2) internship. you will likely have to move your family a minimum of once if you go to the phd. i am betting it would be more like 2x: once for internship, once for post-doc. that sucks. for you, your husband, your kid. if the psyd program can get you into an internship that can maintain some stability for your family, then that seems like a valuable thing.

3) the clinical hours thing at the phd program is a double edged sword. it would help you score a cool internship, but would take more time away from your family and cause you guys to move again. the psyd program sounds more family friendly. you would not have to focus so much on racking up every last possible hour possible.

4) you clearly express a preference for the psyd program. it does not sound like you are picking psychology for financial purposes, as you already had a career. why not go with it?

PsyDr - Your thoughts are very helpful. I haven't thought through alot of this, especially the cost and effect of moving a few times.

My preference for the PsyD program is mainly that I don't want to move. I love Colorado and just don't want to leave. I think the PhD program is a better program. I think the clinical opportunities at Denver are likely better and more varied. I still worry about the perception of PsyD vs. PhD. In Denver, everyone has a PsyD because of DU. Still not as many PhDs. Denver is glutted with psychologists anyway, but those who are mixing with consulting and have some good biz sense do well.

Your point re moving is a valid one. I would be hoping for an internship somewhere in the southeast or Colorado, but I know there are no assurances. There are no assurances that I'd get into the consortium at Denver either. I would plan on coming back to Colorado for post doc/licensing year.

I am not going into psychology for financial reasons, but I have never been in debt with school in my life. I really don't want to start now. It bothers me that I would have to borrow money to live - that doesn't make sense to me. I am not sure where you are in your life, but I would be surprised if you are over 30 and thought that this much debt was ok. Debt is a serious thing. I have so many law school friends who went to DU and other private law schools like Duke and Yale and are in debt and hate law. They are miserable. I have friends that went to these schools and are DAs and love law and they are envious of me. Even if they like law, I think the debt just hangs on you and poisons even good things. When I left the PhD program, I'd have money in the bank. During grad school, I could go on vacations and have money to do things. If I go to the PsyD, I am going to be living on ramen noodles to avoid going into more debt than I have to just to pay the bills. Is it worth the scenic beauty of Colorado?

But it is my life and how I spend it matters to me. Although the PhD program is near family, they aren't right there, so it would just be my husband, son and I in a place that is more of an immediate challenge. However, people tell me that I won't have that much time in graduate school.

I don't know. But I really appreciate everyone's thoughts - this is very helpful. Keep your thoughts coming.

 

[PsyDr]

i am over 30, but admittedly know next to nothing about going into debt.


i am simply encouraging you to consider the impact of your studies on your family. for a multitude of reasons. moving is only one part of the toll. amount of time at school, studying, etc all factor in. i saw one marriage end from grad school related stuff. and another person drop out because they were forced to decide between school and the marriage. then again, i know nothing of your marriage.

 

[shumshum81]

i am over 30, but admittedly know next to nothing about going into debt.


i am simply encouraging you to consider the impact of your studies on your family. for a multitude of reasons. moving is only one part of the toll. amount of time at school, studying, etc all factor in. i saw one marriage end from grad school related stuff. and another person drop out because they were forced to decide between school and the marriage. then again, i know nothing of your marriage.

Obviously a lot of factors to consider besides finances. But I just turned down Denver because I had an offer that gave full funding (still PsyD though). The only PsyD I know well took 120k in debt, his wife took 60k for her school and he's still paying 1100 a month on that debt more than 10 years after graduating and its kept them from getting a house in the school district they would rather live in. With that said I loved Denver's program and will probably always wonder what could have been. I guess I decided on this other program because I didn't want to always look back on my decision to turn down funding as completely niave.

 

[coloradocutter]

Shumshum - I bought my first home when I was 25, and the fact that I made a good salary and did not have debt was a huge factor. I think that I would be in shock if I went back to school and then due to that, I would have issues getting a home. I hate uprooting my family, but my child is very young and won't start school until after my internship likely. My husband is terrified of the debt and our family is nearer the PhD location. We love Colorado and I have heard wonderful things about their placements. But even taking all of my savings, it is a lot, and that is troubling. In law, that kind of debt is one thing - there are entry level jobs paying $175k - not many though. In psychology, that's unheard of for entry level. It could make something you love a burden. I don't know that it is worth it. I think you made a great decision!

 

[docma]

Another random thought. If you want to return to intern in Denver, you will have a geographical diversity factor to your advantage so one way to think about it is a 4 year "posting" to get the academic coursework and dissertation done with the option of returning (debt free) to the place you love--in time for your child to be in school there if you want. Can you rent your home and find a way to live (for example in student housing) for minimum cost at your PhD option?

 

[itlchick]

Well - I am biased of course too - but I would say a Ph.D. is more desirable.

There are a lot of myths out there about the Ph.D.:
1) Most of us do research. Totally false. Most of us do clinical work for a career.
2) That all we do is research. Depends on the school but you have to do 3 years of practica as well + teaching.
3) That we have less clinical hours when you graduate. I had 2000 hours!!

Benefits of PhD:
a) If you look at the match rates, there are *real* big advantages to getting the Ph.D. Internships are just getting harder to get into as well.
b) Some internships will not take PsyDs. Ever.
c) The programs are free
d) The name of the school will stay with you forever. If you go to a bad PsyD school, honestly it just looks bad on your vita (you can over that with a good internship however).
e) we have a very close relationship with our advisors and labs. They come to our weddings. They are well-connected and get us interviews for internships and jobs.

I do think the Ph.D. has the better reputation as well. I also wanted to say that there ARE good PsyD programs out there that I greatly respect but there are some that are just ... scams.

Now - as far as your situation, that Psy.D. program has a very good match rate which is great. Sounds good. Also, hate to say it, but I think your estimates are a little low on how long it takes people to get the degree. Ph.D's are 5-6, PsyDs are 4 years (I believe). It is possible to do the PhD in 4 years but pretty unlikely.

Anyway, I know I'm sounding opinionated but I think sometimes people are given the wrong message by the wrong people (i.e., the people who stand to profit).

Good luck!!! 🙂 🙂