Help...crazy to leave MD for PhD when I'm doing well?

[Confused122]

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First off, not sure if I'm posting in the right area so if not I apologize in advance.

My question is, I am about to be an M2 at a decent school and I'm currently ranked high in my class, so this dilemma has nothing to do with having trouble with school. My background is in microbiology and infectious disease (MPH from a top uni). My career goals are to work in infectious disease, outbreak investigation, public health/biodefense. I have little interest in clinical medicine (albeit this could change third year).

I had planned on pursuing a clinical pathology residency followed by a medical micro fellowship and then hopefully a postdoc at the CDC or similar place. However, I've begun to wonder if it's worth it or if I would be better off applying to a PhD program focusing on my interests (disease ecology/outbreak investigation)?

I worry about the debt I've accrued and going through this potentially huge change. Would it be wise to email a couple of programs that I've had on my radar for awhile to get their thoughts or would this be frowned upon?

Any advice you could give me would be great!

 

[wubtella]

I know you are going to hear this a lot but you are in a position many of us want to be in (Medical Student!) and if you leave, you may regret never completing it. I'm only pre-med so its easy for me to say you should finish out MD then go PhD but if you aren't happy in medical school and feel like you are wasting time, you should go get your PhD! Good luck!

 

[WilliamofOckham]

The ethics of this may be questionable, but you could try going for your school's MD/PhD program, getting the subsidy, pushing through M3 and M4, and not applying to residency.

With your research background, this is feasible.

The more substantial benefits of going the MD/PhD route are the stipends provided throughout, the flexibility at end of the road (choice of whether to pursue residency), and the fact that you're almost assured to finish your PhD within 4-5 years - rather short for independent graduate pathways, from what I understand.

 

[Confused122]

The ethics of this may be questionable, but you could try going for your school's MD/PhD program, getting the subsidy, pushing through M3 and M4, and not applying to residency.

With your research background, this is feasible.

I considered this, but my school doesn't really have anyone doing much research in the areas I'm interested in. I'm still considering the possibility, but I figured if I was going to go through with getting my PhD, I'd be better off doing it at a place I'm interested in with a PI who's doing the research I want to do. This is just me assuming though, I don't really have any idea what would be best.

 

[Porcn]

It is a big mistake to leave in my opinion. There is a shortage of MD's willing to take a pay cut to be involved in research. On the other side there are teeming hordes of PhD trained scientists who would love to have similar jobs at an even lower salary. Many people in my PhD program would've gone to medical school if they had the grades, MCAT, and/or US citizenship. My PhD institution (top 5 med school) purchases coach airline tickets for PhD PI's but buys either business or first class tickets for the MD PI's. Somewhat related anecdote: I know a dude who left med school towards the end of preclinicals because he couldn't see himself practicing clinical medicine. He has been in grad school for three years and just had to start his research project over because his first pi ran low on funding and didn't want to pay him anymore. I don't know how much he is kicking himself now since he could already be a PGY2 but I know I would really be upset.

 

[Porcn]

You should definitely try to get the MD PhD, many programs allow MD students to do that. You should be able to find some sort of research you like at your school unless your school is very small on the research side.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

You should definitely try to get the MD PhD, many programs allow MD students to do that. You should be able to find some sort of research you like at your school unless your school is very small on the research side.

By the way, there was a student in my preclinical classes who switch to MD/PhD after doing a research year after M2, and his research wasn't even at our school - it was at a well-known research powerhouse in a nearby big city.

 

[masaraksh]

I know you are going to hear this a lot but you are in a position many of us want to be in (Medical Student!) and if you leave, you may regret never completing it. I'm only pre-med so its easy for me to say you should finish out MD then go PhD but if you aren't happy in medical school and feel like you are wasting time, you should go get your PhD! Good luck!

Really, medicine is far from sunshine and butterflies and you can't blame anyone for trying to get away from the patients, administrators, and all the regulations that are imposed on you. Also premeds don't matter. It doesn't matter if someone else could have taken. OPs spot. No one cares.

 

[wxman393]

It is a big mistake to leave in my opinion. There is a shortage of MD's willing to take a pay cut to be involved in research. On the other side there are teeming hordes of PhD trained scientists who would love to have similar jobs at an even lower salary. Many people in my PhD program would've gone to medical school if they had the grades, MCAT, and/or US citizenship. My PhD institution (top 5 med school) purchases coach airline tickets for PhD PI's but buys either business or first class tickets for the MD PI's. Somewhat related anecdote: I know a dude who left med school towards the end of preclinicals because he couldn't see himself practicing clinical medicine. He has been in grad school for three years and just had to start his research project over because his first pi ran low on funding and didn't want to pay him anymore. I don't know how much he is kicking himself now since he could already be a PGY2 but I know I would really be upset.

Agree with this. Finished my MPH and PhD before starting medical school. I have similar interests as you. I would not drop out of medical school to pursue a PhD. There are ups and downs with every program, and your PhD pursuit could have some hiccups as described above. You never know if you will lose a committee member, lose funding or have IRB roadblocks.

You will be incredibly more marketable as a dual degree physician-scientist. I definitely understand your concern about the debt but I believe you should at least get through your first clinical year. If you cannot absolutely stomach clinical medicine, maybe revisit the issue. The debt will suck but at least you give yourself the opportunity to consider residency options.

Edit:grammar

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[bc65]

You will have far more career options in the areas of your interest with the MD. It is also likely that the MD will give you a financial return on investment. You probably will be very glad you did, and very sorry if you drop out. Based on what you wrote, you should finish and do IM and ID, or perhaps go into epidemiology. Either way, I think you'll be doing more of what you want with the MD.

 

[MrChance2]

I don't see PhDs from top programs going jobless or making less $100k-$150k/year unless they really take a lifestyle job. I have way less experience in this than some of the above posters but so much of an MD is clinical medicine/general hazing that really isn't applicable if you aren't treating patients. MD probably ultimately would pay more though. I'm just talking out my #$% on this one and felt like giving an opinion though.

 

[Psai]

I don't see PhDs from top programs going jobless or making less $100k-$150k/year unless they really take a lifestyle job. I have way less experience in this than some of the above posters but so much of an MD is clinical medicine/general hazing that really isn't applicable if you aren't treating patients. MD probably ultimately would pay more though. I'm just talking out my #$% on this one and felt like giving an opinion though.

This is the problem with America right here. I laughed out loud when I saw 100k.

 

[Donald Juan]

Do you know if your school has options for going to other universities to do the PhD section of an MD/PhD? Many allow you to go to several places outside of the home institution. It seems like MD/PhD would be ideal for what you want to do, and if you are a top student like you say, you should be able to get into the program at this point.

 

[Stagg737]

Do you know if your school has options for going to other universities to do the PhD section of an MD/PhD? Many allow you to go to several places outside of the home institution. It seems like MD/PhD would be ideal for what you want to do, and if you are a top student like you say, you should be able to get into the program at this point.

Piggybacking off of this, OP could also look into transferring to a med school that has a solid PhD program or PI in his area of interest. Obviously not the most ideal situation, and I'm honestly not sure how feasible that is, but if he's as good of a student as he claims then I'd think other institutions would be interested in let him transfer in.

 

[W19]

Really, medicine is far from sunshine and butterflies and you can't blame anyone for trying to get away from the patients, administrators, and all the regulations that are imposed on you. Also premeds don't matter. It doesn't matter if someone else could have taken. OPs spot. No one cares.

You are correct that medicine is [insert]. OP will get away from patients, but he/she won't get away from bureaucrats trying to micromanage everything.

OP needs to quit now because it will be even a harder decision to make after MS2

 

[futuremdforme]

Do you know if your school has options for going to other universities to do the PhD section of an MD/PhD? Many allow you to go to several places outside of the home institution. It seems like MD/PhD would be ideal for what you want to do, and if you are a top student like you say, you should be able to get into the program at this point.

This sounds like it would be an amazing solution if it's possible. I know that an MD opens a lot of doors when it comes to research funding so I would stay with it even if the plan is to return to research after graduation. I would however, seek out people with similar careers to what OP wants and try to figure out a plan for during and post-MD.

 

[wutwutwut]

the CDC has a residency program in preventative medicine, which kind of sounds like something you might be interested in and it is only a 2 year residency I believe.

and maybe you should ask your medical school if you can take time off to go pursue your PhD at another institution and then come back to do your last two years. I do not know if they would allow this if you do research at another institution, but I was told sometimes people take time off to do a PhD if they did not get into a funded Md/PhD program and then come back to finish medical school


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[KitKat30]

The ethics of this may be questionable, but you could try going for your school's MD/PhD program, getting the subsidy, pushing through M3 and M4, and not applying to residency.

With your research background, this is feasible.

The more substantial benefits of going the MD/PhD route are the stipends provided throughout, the flexibility at end of the road (choice of whether to pursue residency), and the fact that you're almost assured to finish your PhD within 4-5 years - rather short for independent graduate pathways, from what I understand.

How are the ethics of this questionable? I thought a lot of schools allow this?

 

[zarfot]

There are residencies out there that are targeted for physician scientists so you would spend the bulk of your time doing research & like what everyone else said having that MD behind your name can open doors that may take more time as a PhD.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

How are the ethics of this questionable? I thought a lot of schools allow this?

I figure that the purpose of MD/PhD programs is to train physician-scientists - not just scientists - but I'm not certain of this.

 

[ProfMD]

It sounds like this is what you want to do:
https://www.cdc.gov/eis/

Take a look at the website. There is a FAQ that lists the prerequisites. See what education path would best meet the criteria.

Otherwise, just think about what you want to do. From your interests, I would say stick with the MD, since you already have an MPH. You can always work on a PhD in epidemiology or something later.

 

[Confused122]

I appreciate all of the responses and advice. It's given me quite a bit more to consider, especially about asking to take time off to do a PhD. I might be just a little paranoid, but would there be adverse consequences if I contacted a couple of programs outside of my med school and asked for their opinions on my competitiveness and possibility of doing a PhD there? Or would this be seen negatively? Thanks again.

 

[Med Ed]

I appreciate all of the responses and advice. It's given me quite a bit more to consider, especially about asking to take time off to do a PhD. I might be just a little paranoid, but would there be adverse consequences if I contacted a couple of programs outside of my med school and asked for their opinions on my competitiveness and possibility of doing a PhD there? Or would this be seen negatively? Thanks again.

You DO NOT need to get a PhD. It will be a huge investment of blood, sweat, and years for little, if any, payoff. Find some people in the field who are doing approximately what you want to be doing and look at their backgrounds. I am willing to bet most of them have gone through the IM-ID route rather than pathology-micro. To my knowledge most clinical pathologists sit around in the lab waiting for various machines to beep and whir.