PhD/PsyD Help me decide

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I have been accepted to Adler University, Chicago school of professional psychology, and Loma Linda. I've done my research on each school however I've seen some mixed reviews for these schools. I know that cost, internship and the length of the programs are important however I am having a hard time deciding between these 3 schools. Any advise on how to choose? or does anyone has any experience with any of these schools that can share to help me make a decision?
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The first two seem pretty similar in terms of metrics. It all depends on what you're looking for in a PsyD program. What is it are you looking for?

Loma Linda, for such a small program I would be curious about a few things... Why is your licensure rate horrendous? Why is it taking your students 5.5-6+ years to graduate?

I would think about my needs and where these schools fit in. Cohort size; individualized attention/support; theoretical orientation; training sites and opportunities; research opportunities; cost; match rates; licensure rates; location
 
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psych.meout said:
Isn't this the modal time to completion across programs?
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I find that to be the case for PhD programs, but it is "typically" 5 years for PsyD programs. There might be a few students who take a little more time because of personal reasons.
 
VirginiaIsForLovers said:
I find that to be the case for PhD programs, but it is "typically" 5 years for PsyD programs. There might be a few students who take a little more time because of personal reasons.
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From what I know, LLU has both PsyD track and PhD and they treat both programs pretty similarly minus the timeframe of internship and research.
 
I would absolutely advise against ANY PsyD program. The PsyD has been cheapened (except for tuition) to the point that it is only favored by scam employers and marginal programs looking to save money by paying you less than a Ph.D. The Ph.D will take slightly more time and cost a bit more but in the end, it is worth it. The "clinical degree / research degree" assertions are simply marketing tactics by the PsyD programs and do not reflect reality.
 
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msc545 said:
I would absolutely advise against ANY PsyD program. The PsyD has been cheapened (except for tuition) to the point that it is only favored by scam employers and marginal programs looking to save money by paying you less than a Ph.D. The Ph.D will take slightly more time and cost a bit more but in the end, it is worth it. The "clinical degree / research degree" assertions are simply marketing tactics by the PsyD programs and do not reflect reality.
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Most people can't get into PhD programs. Much easier to get into psyd.
 
msc545 said:
I would absolutely advise against ANY PsyD program. The PsyD has been cheapened (except for tuition) to the point that it is only favored by scam employers and marginal programs looking to save money by paying you less than a Ph.D. The Ph.D will take slightly more time and cost a bit more but in the end, it is worth it. The "clinical degree / research degree" assertions are simply marketing tactics by the PsyD programs and do not reflect reality.
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your position that PhDs will “cost a bit more” is directly contradicted by the literature. Which creates problems for any assertion about how rigorous your research skills are. Tell me more.
 
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PsyDr said:
your position that PhDs will “cost a bit more” is directly contradicted by the literature. Which creates problems for any assertion about how rigorous your research skills are. Tell me more.
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Probably you should look at the job market. Sounds like I hit a nerve with you - where did you get your PsyD?
 
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msc545 said:
Probably you should look at the job maket.
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What does that have to do with your claim that PhDs will "cost a bit more but in the end?"

Also, I'm not sure how you're operationalizing "favored" (e.g., relative to psychologists with PhDs vs. employers just looking positively on those with PsyDs in general) but there are lots of employers that aren't "scams" that employ many psychologists with PsyDs, including VAs, AMCs, etc.
 
msc545 said:
I would absolutely advise against ANY PsyD program. The PsyD has been cheapened (except for tuition) to the point that it is only favored by scam employers and marginal programs looking to save money by paying you less than a Ph.D. The Ph.D will take slightly more time and cost a bit more but in the end, it is worth it. The "clinical degree / research degree" assertions are simply marketing tactics by the PsyD programs and do not reflect reality.
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I think that saying only scam employers would hire a psychologist with a PsyD is not accurate and also saying that a PhD costs more doesn’t really make sense.
 
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smalltownpsych said:
I think that saying only scam employers would hire a psychologist with a PsyD is not accurate and also saying that a PhD costs more doesn’t really make sense.
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I said "favored by" not "only hired". Read more carefully. Ph.D's cost more in two ways - first, getting a Ph.D typically (not always) requires an extra year of school as we do a real dissertation which usually requires that extra year and thus extra $$$. Second, in the job market I am in, having a Ph.D. commands slightly more pay than a PsyD.

I note that you are no longer endorsing or defending the clinical degree/research degree marketing stuff - did all of you stop endorsing that finally?
 
psych.meout said:
What does that have to do with your claim that PhDs will "cost a bit more but in the end?"

Also, I'm not sure how you're operationalizing "favored" (e.g., relative to psychologists with PhDs vs. employers just looking positively on those with PsyDs in general) but there are lots of employers that aren't "scams" that employ many psychologists with PsyDs, including VAs, AMCs, etc.
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"Favored" means you can pay them less.
 
msc545 said:
"Favored" means you can pay them less.
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So are you simultaneously saying that a PhD costs more as a degree (which seems suspect given that the majority of PhDs are funded and the majority of PsyDs are not) and that PhDs can command more in the job market? This seems confusing to be attaching both positive and negative connotations to the same term applied to a single degree
 
My PhD didn't cost anything. I mean I did a year of volunteer research work in undergrad, and a year working as a paid lab manager after undergrad. But, after that, full tuition remission and a stipend
 
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msc545 said:
"Favored" means you can pay them less.
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Maybe in private practice, but psychologists with PsyDs are paid the same as psychologists with PhDs at VAs, AMCs, prison systems, etc.

msc545 said:
I said "favored by" not "only hired". Read more carefully. Ph.D's cost more in two ways - first, getting a Ph.D typically (not always) requires an extra year of school as we do a real dissertation which usually requires that extra year and thus extra $$$. Second, in the job market I am in, having a Ph.D. commands slightly more pay than a PsyD.

I note that you are no longer endorsing or defending the clinical degree/research degree marketing stuff - did all of you stop endorsing that finally?
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Except the vast majority of PhD programs are fully funded, so it does not cost extra money if they take a year longer than the typical PsyD program. E.g., my program averages 6 years, but some students take 5 and some (less often) take 7. We don't save money by taking 5 years and it doesn't cost us more to take 7.

Now, if you're referring to opportunity cost of taking an additional year, which means you're one year further away from getting licensed and making real money, you have to frame that in the context of program costs and debt. Since PhD programs are fully funded, students are frequently not taking on any debt and what debt they do take on is relatively little in comparison to unfunded programs. Even if some PhD students are losing out on a year of licensed income, retirement contributions, etc., they're still ahead compared to the hundreds of thousands in debt that unfunded students have when finishing a year earlier than them.
 
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You really should look at Indeed.
 
You made a claim, I called you on it. What’s your evidence that PhDs are less expensive?

You’re not answering my question. Answer or admit you’re wrong.

Ad hominems are used when there is no other argument. It’s a formal error of logo. That demonstrates your position is wrong.

If you’re entering into a gonad measuring contest, I’m happy to go toe to toe . Name your stakes, name your arbitrator .
 
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msc545 said:
You really should look at Indeed.
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The VA does not pay psychologists differently depending on whether they have a PhD or PsyD, as do many other employers. Regardless, "look at Indeed" is not a substitute for providing evidence for your controversial claim.

Also, what does that have to do with your other claim that PhD programs are more expensive because they typically take one year longer than PsyD programs?
 
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msc545 said:
I said "favored by" not "only hired". Read more carefully. Ph.D's cost more in two ways - first, getting a Ph.D typically (not always) requires an extra year of school as we do a real dissertation which usually requires that extra year and thus extra $$$. Second, in the job market I am in, having a Ph.D. commands slightly more pay than a PsyD.

I note that you are no longer endorsing or defending the clinical degree/research degree marketing stuff - did all of you stop endorsing that finally?
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I was misreading the implication. Didn’t realize that by favored you were implying that they would want hire PsyDs to pay less money and that other jobs might hire them too. As far as the cost thing goes, not sure if years to licensure is on the side of the PsyD degrees. Also, many PsyDs do real dissertations and most of my cohort did genuine research.

As far as the endorsing and defending statement, not sure who the you is that you are referring to. I personally think I have had a good understanding of that misconception and the historical origins of that since I was in my doctoral program almost 20 years ago. In fact, when I was applying to internship, our programs director made the point that the PsyD students no longer had the edge in clinical experience that they once had as the PhD programs were becoming more balanced.
 
smalltownpsych said:
I was misreading the implication. Didn’t realize that by favored you were implying that they would want hire PsyDs to pay less money and that other jobs might hire them too. As far as the cost thing goes, not sure if years to licensure is on the side of the PsyD degrees. Also, many PsyDs do real dissertations and most of my cohort did genuine research.

As far as the endorsing and defending statement, not sure who the you is that you are referring to. I personally think I have had a good understanding of that misconception and the historical origins of that since I was in my doctoral program almost 20 years ago. In fact, when I was applying to internship, our programs director made the point that the PsyD students no longer had the edge in clinical experience that they once had as the PhD programs were becoming more balanced.
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I am also not sure if years to licensure works in favor of PsyD's either. They do get out of school a year early, but they may have more trouble getting s postdoc than a PhD has.

As for "real" research, I have had the occasion to read many "dissertations" by PsyD students, most of which looked like padded book reports. Maybe there are some decent ones but I have yet to see them. As far as I can tell, the allure of PsyD programs for many is in part the absence of a doctoral dissertation.
 
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PsyDr said:
You made a claim, I called you on it. What’s your evidence that PhDs are less expensive?

You’re not answering my question. Answer or admit you’re wrong.

Ad hominems are used when there is no other argument. It’s a formal error of logo. That demonstrates your position is wrong.

If you’re entering into a gonad measuring contest, I’m happy to go toe to toe . Name your stakes, name your arbitrator .
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I don't interact with people as angry as you seem to be. It gives me a headache.
 
smalltownpsych said:
I was misreading the implication. Didn’t realize that by favored you were implying that they would want hire PsyDs to pay less money and that other jobs might hire them too. As far as the cost thing goes, not sure if years to licensure is on the side of the PsyD degrees. Also, many PsyDs do real dissertations and most of my cohort did genuine research.

As far as the endorsing and defending statement, not sure who the you is that you are referring to. I personally think I have had a good understanding of that misconception and the historical origins of that since I was in my doctoral program almost 20 years ago. In fact, when I was applying to internship, our programs director made the point that the PsyD students no longer had the edge in clinical experience that they once had as the PhD programs were becoming more balanced.
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I still hear that research degree/clinical degree thing from a few people, albeit people who probably have a poor understanding of our education to begin with.
 
msc545 said:
As for "real" research, I have had the occasion to read many "dissertations" by PsyD students, most of which looked like padded book reports. Maybe there are some decent ones but I have yet to see them.
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I'll add some anecdotal evidence of my own -
It seems to me that there is a steadily increasing number of university-based, small cohort PsyD programs with a balanced approach to research/clinical training, funding, require actual dissertations, and function much like balanced PhD programs. It's still a relatively small number, but everything has to start somewhere. I, too, am frustrated by diploma mill programs and large cohort programs that provide poor training at a high cost. But, disdain for all PsyD programs/graduates isn't helpful or a realistic view of the current landscape. Seems like highlighting the good programs and providing accurate information for future students who come across these posts would be a better use of time than painting them all with a broad, inaccurate brush.
 
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I am not disdainful of PsyD graduates, I am disdainful of the people that start and run those predatory programs. The people that enroll in them are just victims.
 
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msc545 said:
I don't owe you a response given your rudeness.
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Ok, but what about the rest of us who have similar questions about the controversial claims you have made without any kind of support or substantiation?
 
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msc545 said:
I would absolutely advise against ANY PsyD program. The PsyD has been cheapened (except for tuition) to the point that it is only favored by scam employers and marginal programs looking to save money by paying you less than a Ph.D. The Ph.D will take slightly more time and cost a bit more but in the end, it is worth it. The "clinical degree / research degree" assertions are simply marketing tactics by the PsyD programs and do not reflect reality.
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psycle708 said:
I'll add some anecdotal evidence of my own -
It seems to me that there is a steadily increasing number of university-based, small cohort PsyD programs with a balanced approach to research/clinical training, funding, require actual dissertations, and function much like balanced PhD programs. It's still a relatively small number, but everything has to start somewhere. I, too, am frustrated by diploma mill programs and large cohort programs that provide poor training at a high cost. But, disdain for all PsyD programs/graduates isn't helpful or a realistic view of the current landscape. Seems like highlighting the good programs and providing accurate information for future students who come across these posts would be a better use of time than painting them all with a broad, inaccurate brush.
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msc545 said:
I am not disdainful of PsyD graduates, I am disdainful of the people that start and run those predatory programs. The people that enroll in them are just victims.
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I think it's fine to dislike predatory programs. However, equating PsyD with predatory and PhD with non-predatory is not accurate. I would hire a PsyD from Baylor, Rutgers, etc. over a PhD from CSPP/Alliant any day. Predatory programs can put any initials on a piece of paper you like.
 
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Sanman said:
I think it's fine to dislike predatory programs. However, equating PsyD with predatory and PhD with non-predatory is not accurate. I would hire a PsyD from Baylor, Rutgers, etc. over a PhD from CSPP/Alliant any day. Predatory programs can put any initials on a piece of paper you like.
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Nothing is absolute obviously and that did not require restatement. That said, predatory practices seem to occur far more often in PsyD programs as compared to PhD programs.
 
msc545 said:
Nothing is absolute obviously and that did not require restatement. That said, predatory practices seem to occur far more often in PsyD programs as compared to PhD programs.
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It may not require restatement for you or I, but prospective applicants may not understand this. It would be a shame if they thought a CSPP PhD was a good idea or wrote off Baylor or similar programs. We are trained to research topics and understand the nuances of a topic rather than the broadstrokes. That should begin here for students.

The program should be:
1. APA accredited
2. Preferably small cohort
3. Provide some funding level
4. Public universities are often the best bet

Beyond that, one should do their research and consider all quality programs. If your priority is living in a large city and school has a large price tag, it is likely predatory. I think we can all agree on these things.
 
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Sanman said:
It may not require restatement for you or I, but prospective applicants may not understand this. It would be a shame if they thought a CSPP PhD was a good idea or wrote off Baylor or similar programs. We are trained to research topics and understand the nuances of a topic rather than the broadstrokes. That should begin here for students.

The program should be:
1. APA accredited
2. Preferably small cohort
3. Provide some funding level
4. Public universities are often the best bet

Beyond that, one should do their research and consider all quality programs. If your priority is living in a large city and school has a large price tag, it is likely predatory. I think we can all agree on these things.
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Also, the age of the school and program. The older it is, the longer it has been around without undue things occurring.
 
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AbnormalPsych said:
Yes and the published stats on graduation, internship match, and licensure percentages.
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Licensure percentages in context. If it's a program with a powerhouse research lab or two, a good portion of those students may be 100% academic. If they are pursuing a full TT or applied research career, they may never bother with licensure if they don't need it. But, a balanced or clinically minded program with a sub 80 rate? That could be a problem
 
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msc545 said:
I would absolutely advise against ANY PsyD program. The PsyD has been cheapened (except for tuition) to the point that it is only favored by scam employers and marginal programs looking to save money by paying you less than a Ph.D. The Ph.D will take slightly more time and cost a bit more but in the end, it is worth it. The "clinical degree / research degree" assertions are simply marketing tactics by the PsyD programs and do not reflect reality.
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Would disagree with this. Respectfully, this is just an extremely out of touch take and just does not reflect reality.

If PhD programs are funded why do they cost more? They also don't necessarily take longer than a reputable, accredited, university connected PsyD program.

The "clinical degree/research degree" assertions are a mixed bag. Most people associate PhDs with research and academia, perhaps because so many fields of study have "PhDs." Not a dig at psych PhDs, just an observation. Both PsyD and PhDs have research components and clinical components. In psych, PhDs can be in areas that are not license eligible (i.e. I.O., Social , Cognitive), perhaps another reason many see them as more "research oriented." As far as I know only Counseling programs and Clinical programs can lead to licensure.

Plenty of PsyDs in academia and plenty of PhDs in practice.

Not enough PhDs because they keep their enrollment low (and that’s fine since if fully funded. Maybe too many universities rather spend their money on multi million dollar football stadiums than more funding for a few more good PhD students 😁).

I’d imagine looking at the past , PsyD programs came about because of too few PhDs to provide services to a growing need.

I would say though avoid stand alone “professional” PsyD and PhD programs in our field. Aka those not part of an actual university. And yes there are scam PhD programs online and stand alone too.

Then again maybe this commentor thinks MDs, DOs, and PharmDs are scams too because they aren’t PhDs and you have to "pay" for them.

Both PhDs and PsyDs can coexist and both can be found in these scams you mentioned.
 
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Peacemaker36 said:
Wacky thread.
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Fairly typical. Poster asks about various PsyD programs and it turns into an anti PsyD thread or a fully funded vs expensive huge debt thread. It would be more productive if we actually talked about the strengths and weaknesses of the various programs that people are considering and let them decide. Kind of analogous to harm reduction. Using recreational drugs is risky and often harmful and I could just tell all my clients to just say no, but providing accurate information about the risks vs benefits has been shown to be a more effective response.
 
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smalltownpsych said:
Fairly typical. Poster asks about various PsyD programs and it turns into an anti PsyD thread or a fully funded vs expensive huge debt thread. It would be more productive if we actually talked about the strengths and weaknesses of the various programs that people are considering and let them decide. Kind of analogous to harm reduction. Using recreational drugs is risky and often harmful and I could just tell all my clients to just say no, but providing accurate information about the risks vs benefits has been shown to be a more effective response.
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It's more like cigarettes. People are telling them that its bad and will cause them long-term harm, but then you have corporate entities like Big Tobacco propagandizing to them for their own monetary interests.

Harm reduction would be asking people why they are selecting these programs and encouraging them to apply to funded programs that accomplish at least some of those same goals.
 
psych.meout said:
It's more like cigarettes. People are telling them that its bad and will cause them long-term harm, but then you have corporate entities like Big Tobacco propagandizing to them for their own monetary interests.

Harm reduction would be asking people why they are selecting these programs and encouraging them to apply to funded programs that accomplish at least some of those same goals.
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Exactly. And despite that education some will choose to use tobacco for various reasons and not just Big Tobacco. We recently had a whole thread that derailed into a discussion of chewing tobacco of all things. Me, not a big fan of that, and I can think of lots of reasons why someone should not use that substance, but if they were asking about the various types and flavors, I'm not going to jump in and tell them they are foolish to even do it in the first place. I use too much caffeine, too much sugar and processed flour, and am even financially irresponsible at times. I just think we need to temper our advice with some recognition that the optimal is not always going to be the choice.
 
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