Help: Med vs. Peds- MS4 w/ ROL due in few days

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LonePair

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I am an MS4 that thought hey since I'm confused about Medicine and Peds, I'll apply for both and make my mind up at some point along the way. I've gone on double the interviews and applied to great programs. I've enjoyed both specialties in my fourth year. Come down to it I think I would be happy in either or: so I have not freaked out about it until now.
I wish to rank only one specialty. I have formed separate rank lists for Peds and Medicine. Now I have to pick one.

I did not choose MED/PEDS b/c I was told that if I am simply undecided, it is not the path to go. It is the path to go you see yourself using the dual educ; adolescent peds. I see myself specializing down the line, ex) Adult cardio - kiss peds goodbye.

I have much more experience in Medicine. My 4th yr rot. in Peds was Ambulatory Peds and I didn't see super sick pt's. I have an inner fear dealing with intubated kids/dying terminal kids.
But I think my heart says Peds:

Pros: I like that they get better, Dr's seem more satisfied, my personality fits, greater life impact on pt, and I'm passionate about giivng children what they deserve, + end results, I like routine/repetition, better compliance. It's never the kiddo's fault: my incentive to give my all becomes greater.
Negatives: Lower pay, I want to pay my loans and buy a house/REALLY well- I've dreamnt so much, more night calls.
Earlier, I was under the impression that peds specialties could compete with 200+ salaries, but that's not the case unless I do Neo or GI.

With Medicine:
Pros: Salary, more subsp with compensations, I enjoy thinking critically/pathophys. I can relate to the patients/I'm personable. I've always been interested in Adult Cards.
Cons: Less likely to TREAT an illness/controlling illness leads to producable results; so much end stage/chronic stuff. Pt. compliance is more difficult: Lifelong smoker with emphysema continues... If they don't want to help themselves in the world am I going to.

Please help, I'm waiting for a lightning to strike me.
N:
 
Its probably too late now but you probably should have done med/peds. For me I thought about both fields but it was pretty clear that IM was for me. In your case the practical experience of doing both residency would have made the choice. Anyways, for me it ultimately came down to the fact that IM was much more intellectually exciting with much more differential diagnosis and complex management. If the cases are more complex (ALL, genetic syndromes etc) then you had a 5 year old kid who was either dying or extremely sick. However, the practical matters of IM also are more appealing. I can deal with people hurting themselves but I cannot deal with parents making stupid decisions for their children (like not getting vaccinated). With outpatient peds I felt like much of it was telling parents basic parenting advise.

I also want to have a relationship with my patients. With IM you can have a mature relationships with your patients. Kids are mostly afraid of doctors and adolescents are zero fun. If I wanted to work with kids I would become a school teacher so that I can form relationships with them.

These are all my own thoughts so make what you want of them. Good luck
 
Med/Peds and then do a combined cardiology fellowship and specialize in congenital heart. I know some people who do this and it's such a small, yet growing field.
 
If your heart says peds then you should do peds. I don't know how bad your loan situation is but I think it would be terrible to let finances play a significant role in your consideration. It's cliche but money is not going to bring you happiness.
 
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I am an MS4 that thought hey since I'm confused about Medicine and Peds, . . .

I did not choose MED/PEDS b/c I was told that if I am simply undecided, it is not the path to go. It is the path to go you see yourself using the dual educ; adolescent peds. I see myself specializing down the line, ex) Adult cardio - kiss peds goodbye.

Med/Peds is best fitted for people who really feel a desire to do both medicine and pediatrics, and the residency programs for Med/Peds want people who are obviously passionate about both fields and would *not* be happy doing just medicine or just pediatrics. About 80% of Med/Peds folks go on to see both adults and children, this is just the type of doctor they want to be.

From your post is seems you like the work of pediatricians to help children, but would not want to deal with very sick or dying children and would like, if you go pediatrics, to have an ambulatory peds practice doing mostly well child/sore throat type stuff. The thing with pediatrics is that more and more of the "easy" stuff like well child checkups is being done by midlevels, such as nurse practicioners so pediatricians can focus on treating very sick children. In Neonatology you will see a lot of sick babies, many of who will die, and similarily in GI you would see some sick children in GI clinic and in the hospital. An ambulatory pediatrician has one of the lowest salaries in the medical profession, maybe around 110,000 or so, which for some people seems like a lot, but not for someone who wants a salary in the 200,000. . . While most students have a great time on ambulatory pediatrics, it sounds like you haven't been exposed to the full range of what you would do in a pediatrics or even Med/Peds residency which requires months of Neo, Pediatric Wards and Peds Hem/Onc which has a lot of sick patients. Ideally, your 4th year electives perhaps should have been split between Peds and Medicine to give you a more clear understand of what you would like . . .

However, . . . you did do a lot of medicine electives! And after all of that you realize that you would be happy in medicine. I noticed you mentioned adult cardiology twice, while people change their minds, it seems you have an inclination to do adult cardio. Many adult cardiologist are personable like yourself, so much that they are as "nice" as pediatricians, . . . at any rate, if you are already thinking down the line to adult cardiology then it seems that subconciously you are in the frame of mind to do IM for residency.

I think not doing Med/Peds is a good idea as you might find dealing with very sick children too much of a burden during residency and would force you to look for an IM spot, or if you did a Pediatric residency the effect of dealing with many intubated and dying children on the PICU months might force you to quit and look for an internal medicine position.

I think that the litmus test for any residency is not the appearance of happiness of the practicioners, i.e. pediatricians, but if you related well to the patient population and want to treat them. You said you related well to adult patients and like their pathophysiology, looks good for IM, obviously non-compliance is a problem in most fields, and in pediatrics you would have to deal with worrying parents, and there is major non-compliance problems in Peds these days, especially ambulatory patients who are obese and their parents are obese and you know you need to help these kids lose weight as they are starting to get hypertension! In Pediatrics you have a deathly fear of intubated and dying kids, which means that you would be much more limited in the types of Peds patients you could see, especially now that Pediatricians are the "big guns" being used more and more just for sick kids.

The vast majority of pediatric categorical residency applicants have dealt with how they will deal with sick/dying/intubated children, and perhaps are interested in pediatric critical care/hem onc. Most medical students view the field of pediatrics positively, such as helping children and how "happy" some pediatricians look (believe me not all), but realize that the day to day work of dealing with very sick kids or very worried parents is not for them, and that's OK. Many internists love the work they do, had considered pediatrics, but realized that they couldn't emotional deal with very sick children.

I would think you are better fit for IM as you can at least see all types of adult IM patients, even adult cardiology patients, and are more interested in the pathophysiology there. I think that lightning has struck you if you are considering doing adult cardiology as you must really like adult medicine patients. Just my 2 cents!
 
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I think you made the right choice in not applying to med/peds programs. If you're confident about subspecializing then it really doesn't make much sense to do the extra year of training, while thereby also limiting your exposure to the field you end up choosing (you definitely miss out on certain things by choosing a combined residency). I almost made the mistake of choosing med/peds because I too couldn't decide, but in retrospect I'm VERY glad I bit the bullet and made up my mind ahead of time. I've already seen a number of residents who trained in med/peds go on to never practice one of the two specialties, or do a subspecialty fellowship in only an adult or pediatric field. It very much sounds like you'd be one of these people, so I think you made a smart move.

Now comes the tough part of deciding between the two. Obviously no one can make this difficult decision for you, but hopefully some of our comments and reflections here will be somewhat helpful. I'd like to add a few observations to the mix:

Some of your assertions about the practice of medicine aren't all that accurate or fair. For example, I wouldn't agree with your implied generalization that adult patients mostly don't get better, or that pediatricians are more satisfied than adult docs. Indeed, adult patients are often much more grateful and more invested in their healthcare than children, and we cure so many conditions on a daily basis. These range from the routine and mundane, such as UTIs, bronchitis, or pneumonia, to the more complex, serious, or obscure, such as meningitis, NPH, Guillain-Barre, ITP, TTP, SVT (which can often be catheter-ablated now), etc. etc. The conditions we diagnose and treat can have a catastrophic effect on a person's life, arguably more so than the common pediatric conditions, so we stand to make a very significant impact on our patients' lives. Sure, some people will never quit smoking or won't take their BP meds, but these won't define your existence as an internist any more than child abusers would define your existence as a pediatrician (unless you let yourself become a debbie-downer and allow them to, which certainly happens to some docs). There's also quite a bit of chronic disease management in the peds world, so I wouldn't use your preconceptions about chronic disease management as a deal-breaker. Think asthma, ADHD, CF, cardiac defects, cerebral palsy, autism, genetic syndromes, short gut, etc. etc. You'll face this in just about any specialty, in medicine or pediatrics, and chances are you'll like it in the end.

Regarding the improvement and treatability of conditions in adults, consider all the quality of life improvements and life extension provided by cardiologists and oncologists. Many people are cured of their cancers, and many people are given decades of additional life through cardiac interventions or other medical therapies. Sure, their CAD may never go away, but this provides you with a wonderful opportunity to develop longitudinal relationships with grateful patients who you can help a great deal, and who will love you for it. It's a very special thing actually. Adult physicians do TONS of good for their patients...we're not all just wasting our time treating patients who won't help themselves. And while I agree that many primary care doctors are dissatisfied, perhaps more so in medicine than pediatrics, this shouldn't be a big consideration for you if you're planning to pursue subspecialty practice. I've found subspecialists to be much more satisfied with their careers and lifestyles compared to PCPs for sure, but also compared to many pediatricians I've met. Plus, the dissatisfaction is more so due to time-pressures that are driven by reimbursement problems, forcing PCPs to see more patients during a clinic session, rather than unhappiness with adult medicine itself.

I guess my take-home message here is this: be careful about the assumptions you make in this process. I think several of your initial observations are inaccurate, and have the potential to mislead you greatly. Instead, I'd recommend that you explore your "gut feeling" more. It's very important to listen to these feelings, as there are often some very important considerations underlying them. That said, my gut feeling led me astray, and it caused me to almost make the big mistake of applying to med/peds when in retrospect medicine was by far the best choice for me.

What ultimately helped me make the decision was thinking more short term, about what it would mean for my daily experience throughout the next 3-4 years of my life. Ask yourself, what's the training like? Does it appeal to you? Why or why not? This may help you get to the root of your initial impressions about what specialt appeals to you and why. This actually made it quite clear which path was the right one for me. I realized that I loved the "idea" of pediatric subspecialty practice, but when I thought about the reality of the daily peds training I realized I would've hated about 3/4 of it. I didn't like NICU, was terrified by the idea of PICU, found the nursery to be boring, didn't like the mundane nature of well-child visits, didn't like the overbearing parents, hated the snotty nose clinic and vaccinations, and didn't like the simplicity of most of the disease processes. But I loved the complex ID stuff on the wards, the differential diagnosis, the short gut management, genetic diseases, heme/onc, cardiology, etc. I thought this meant that I loved subspecialty peds, but really what it meant was that I loved certain features of subspecialty practice, which are present actually in both medicine and pediatrics, and that the "peds" part of it was actually more of a negative for me. In the end, I recognized that what I liked about subspecialty peds was actually the complexity of the diagnosis, treatment, and management, and NOT the actual pediatrics part. Then when I thought about medicine some more, I realized that every day was especially enjoyable to me because there was just so much to know and master, so many diagnostic possibilities and challenges, and so many ways to help patients, whom I felt I could interact with on a much more meaningful level, and develop longitudinal relationships with.

Sorry that's a bit of a long-winded reply, but I hope it helps give you an example of my own journey and thought process in a quite similar situation just a few years ago. Good luck with the decision! (and keep us posted 🙂)
 
I just wanted to thank everyone for all their help and the great insight. There are some really excellent responses here and they will definetely help me in the ultimate decison. I will keep posted!
 
I don't really think that being somewhat afraid of taking care of PICU patients should be a reason not to do peds if that is what you like better...I actually think that some degree of fear in a med student or lower level resident is a GOOD thing. Actually for all docs....those who don't have any fear are probably reckless and recklessness hurts people. I think it is normal to have some trepidation about the ICU, until you get more experience dealing with really sick patients, which you won't have as a student.

I agree that to make 200k will be more difficult as a pediatrician vs. an IM doc...for IM I think you'll need to pursue certain subspecialties to get to that level, honestly. The list, however, is longer than that for peds subspecialties that could make a comparable amount.

I agree that a lot of IM patients don't get better...some do, but we do take care of a ton of chronic diseases and predominantly the elderly and middle aged folks. Part of this depends on your personal clinic population too...my resident clinic was at a VA so the vast majority of my patients were over 45.

I know several med/peds docs who went into cardiology and one is specializing in adult congenital heart dz....the peds background will surely help vs. straight IM. I did IM and I don't remember jack about pediatric heart dz/congenital stuff/embryology.

The extra year for med/peds, and missing out on certain elements of training in both IM and peds, could be a concern, especially as some med/peds programs have more of a primary care focus. However, there are pluses also (see above where I mention congenital heart dz).

You might want to consider ranking IM programs highly if they are at places that also have a med/peds program. I'm not sure how possible this would be, but you could potentially switch to a med/peds track at a later time if a few months into internship you're still dying to do peds too...it would probably be hard but likely could be worked out if the program directors were both willing. There is a lot of overlap between the med/peds and medicine faculty at the place where I did residency. I know folks have switched from med/peds to straight IM, but that would likely be easier (b/c you'd be subtracting months, not needing to add them).
 
The extra year for med/peds, and missing out on certain elements of training in both IM and peds, could be a concern, especially as some med/peds programs have more of a primary care focus. However, there are pluses also (see above where I mention congenital heart dz).

I asked a question on the med/peds forum regarding elements missing and may have caused some offense. What elements in particular? Is it just research and elective months or important core material that is lost?
 
I don't really think that being somewhat afraid of taking care of PICU patients should be a reason not to do peds if that is what you like better...I actually think that some degree of fear in a med student or lower level resident is a GOOD thing.

True but the OP said that he/she had an "inner fear" of dealing with dying and intubated kids. I have seen some people that couldn't bear to deal with kids who were dying and didn't do pediatrics because of this. So, I didn't interpret it as a fear of the PICU per say, where most survive, but rather of unwillingness/inner fear of being around very sick children. It is good to fear doing wrong, but inner fear around a child who is dying is different.
 
I asked a question on the med/peds forum regarding elements missing and may have caused some offense. What elements in particular? Is it just research and elective months or important core material that is lost?

For Med/Peds you do mostly the hardcore stuff like wards, nicu, picu, icu, micu, . . . so you have pretty intense training, but is less than what a pediatrician would get, by a year. So someone who does a pediatric residency could do many more pediatric electives, i.e. hone their peds cardiology skill, etc . . . and even more picu months or what have you. So, if you know you want NICU or Peds cardio you would do better doing straight pediatrics so you can focus on this. Most Med/Peds folks do primary care as they have pretty much a family practice residency sans the surgery/ob/gy/minor procedures, and a couple more wards and clinic months.

This is why Med/Peds programs are closing/dying out, for 4 years you can do less (in terms of scope of patients) than an FP who can also do minor office procedures, even derm procedures as I have seen some FPs do. And FP is only three years as opposed to four in Med/Peds. Most Med/Peds do general practice, like FPs, very few actually do a combined fellowship as they are hard to find, and the subspecialty med/peds eventually end up seeing most/all adult or pediatric patients.

Same thing for medicine, if you want to do adult cardiology do an IM residency, in Med/Peds you only get two total years of medicine, so yes, something is cut out, both traditional ward months and electives, but much more electives are cut in Med/Peds in favor of trying to at least get in some ward time in both peds and medicine.
 
Where to start!?

I would advise those interested to go to medpeds.org and take a look at things like programs, training, and the brand spanking new fellowship guide (where all these 'hard to find' fellowships are)

Med peds is not "dying out"... and has actually been around longer than FP

MP/AAP stats: In 2007, 55% of Med-Peds graduates were pursing primary care practice, 18% subspecialty training, 17% hospital medicine, and 10% other careers. The number of grads pursuing subspec. training is currently rising.


Fundamental clinical skills are similar in medicine and peds. Though it requires special skills honed with practice to adeptly acquire a good history and perform a physical exam, there are similarities across age groups, communication skills are core, and the organization of information recording is fairly uniform. Advanced clinical skills -- those reflecting information processing, reasoning, hypothesis testing, deduction, applied statistics, and epidemiology -- are fundamentally the same in the two specialties. Pathophysiology is more similar than dissimilar across the disciplines, with the biggest difference being the manifestations of the same condition at different ages, the incidence/prevalence of conditions at different ages, and nuances in treatments at different ages. (From AAP) Having additional ICU training for instance on Medicine gives you a lot of insight into doing PICU. The senior MedPeds residents at my program are doing PICU fellowships at some pretty prestigious PICUs in the US...i'm sure that MICU/CICU side on medicine helped out alot and this was confirmed by faculty at programs interviewing them. Seeing younger adults in medicine with IBD or DM gives me additional knowledge amd training that i can carry over into pediatrics as well as seeing pediatric patients with cystic fibrosis or sickle cell disease now in their early to mid 20s.

and food for thought...Pediatrics 2009; 123:417-423

MedPeds does sacrifice elective time, but there are actually requirements on both medicine and peds for core electives (ID, pulm etc.) to make sure that we get an appropriate amount. I just need to be more careful about the elective time that i have and be focused with it...and some elective time are things like Adolescent and behavior, electives that i personally would not miss
 
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Med peds is not "dying out"...

I meant that the number of Med/Peds residents peaked out years ago and the number of positions has been on the decline, as have the number of med/peds residency programs.
 
Personally, if I wanted treat both adults and kids I'd do med/peds, b/c I think it's a slightly better residency and only takes 1 extra year. Plus, it still gives you the option of specializing if you want, and also I think it would be a good specialty for someone who wants to become a hospitalist. I also think if you want to treat a lot of adolescents it would be a good residency to do. The extra year is ONLY worthwhile if you really are strongly considering either adolescent medicine, or in seeing both kids and adults ultimately, IMHO. Fp tends to be a little more outpatient based, though, and there are more programs with a rural emphasis, so if you really want to do rural medicine or do a lot of procedures (like derm biopsies, etc.) then fp is probably better. I disagree that med/meds is dying out...I think some places have trimmed their number of spots but that is probably more due to US students' waning interest in primary care, more so than it being a "dying specialty". I think of the two, fp is closer to being that, since it is filling with a lower and lower %age of US grads every year.

Med/peds is just a tough row to hoe because it's 4 years of residency with lots of wards and ICU months. My experience with these house staff is that when I had then as interns, they needed a little bit of extra help because they hadn't had the amount of IM experience as my other interns (straight IM ones). I mean, they definitely knew less...if I have a med/peds intern 7 months into the year but she's only done maybe 3 months of medicine, that's a lot different knowledge base than my other intern for whom this is his 7th straight month of doing IM. It was kind of like having an off-service intern (ER, anesthesia, etc.) except that the med/peds folks usually were more enthusiastic... However, when I was an intern and had a PGY4 med/peds resident as my ICU resident, he seemed so f-ing smart...he was not freaked out at all when we admitted a tiny 70 pound 24yo man with cerebral palsy, etc. and we had to put a central line in him. It was like doing a line in a peds patient! So basically they start out struggling more, and end up knowing the most. If you are in a malignant hospital or one that expects interns to "go it alone" a lot, I think being a med/peds intern could be very, very hard, but if you're in the right program/hospital I think it could be cool...but you must have a lot of heart for both specialties to be able to do a 4 year residency like this and not regret it.

I repeat that I think med/peds could be a quite useful residency for someone doing adult cardiology, just because those folks end up knowing a lot of congenital cardiology stuff. Whether it's worth an extra year of residency, I can't say, but after all it's only 1 year and I don't think med/peds is a bad choice, as long as you realize what you are getting in to. And I would think that you'll have a lot less electives, etc., vs. someone who is straight IM or staright peds, but you'd have to research that.
 
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