Help....Please

[ForPsycStudent]

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Hi everyone, I would really appreciate some help on what I am about to do, career change, of which going back to school will be required.

Here is a little background, I will be 44 in July (I know, over the hill) and will be finishing my associates degree in psychology May '14. From there I will go on to my bachelors in psyc with possible a double major in criminal justice. If I double major I am figuring it will take me 3 years to finish my bachelors, so I will be 47 going on 48. Now here is the doozy, I WANT to go on to my Ph.D because i would like to wind up in the research, possibly academia arena working with the darker side of our population. What are the chances of actually making it into a graduate program at my age? Am I just barking up the proverbial wall? I'm done raising children, they are all grown with 1 in the military, so I have the time to do this.

My plans were to finish my bachelors, than apply to graduate schools. If I can't get into a Ph.D program than perhaps start a Masters program and than try the following year for a Ph.D program.

Barring NJ falling into the ocean anytime soon, I really do want to give this my full throttle.
If it doesn't happen and I have to switch over to Social Work, what are my chances of finding a job in research there?

I will be the first to admit, there isn't much I'm scared of, more like that I am willing to admit I am scared of, BUT this is the one thing that I am letting my fear take hold. That fear is that I will be turned away at every corner because of my age. I keep trying to convince myself that because I have all the younger generation stuff (marriage, kids) out of the way, that I might be a better candidate if I maintain a high GPA and do well on my GRE's.

Not asking for anyone to tell me it will all work out. I'm actually looking for the reality of the situation at best. I already know I am limited to the schools I can apply for since hubby is coming close to retirement and can't just up and leave his job. I will only have a few programs I can apply to while still maintaining where I live. Unless of course that would let me sleep under my research desk...LOL

Thanks for all the help in advance. I really do want to pursue this dream and I know that I can do the work involved.

Rosie

 

[fallen625]

I think it's great that you are going for this - regardless of age. I know there are some people who post here who came into the game quite late and have done well.

It' hard to say what your chances are - but acceptances rates for Clinical PhD programs range between 5 and 15%. I am not sure how programs view age - but do you even have to disclose it? It would become obvious by interview time, but I wonder if people would notice from an application itself (unless they looked at the DOB - but I doubt many schools would look into such detail)

You still have a shot. I am sure you know this, but there is a lot you can do now to improve your chances; get meaningful research experience in an area that you might pursue in graduate school (and potentially an independent project if at all possible and/or publications/posters), try to keep your grades as high as possible, and study for the GRE.

Good luck!

 

[ForPsycStudent]

I think it's great that you are going for this - regardless of age. I know there are some people who post here who came into the game quite late and have done well.

Thank you so much for responding Fallen. I know a few years ago I had done some research about the average age of someone entering the psychology realm and if I remember correctly it was around the early to mid forties. That gives me some hope...😀

It' hard to say what your chances are - but acceptances rates for Clinical PhD programs range between 5 and 15%. I am not sure how programs view age - but do you even have to disclose it? It would become obvious by interview time, but I wonder if people would notice from an application itself (unless they looked at the DOB - but I doubt many schools would look into such detail)
I'm not sure if they look at age either, I would think that they would look for a good fit within their program above all else.

You still have a shot. I am sure you know this, but there is a lot you can do now to improve your chances; get meaningful research experience in an area that you might pursue in graduate school (and potentially an independent project if at all possible and/or publications/posters), try to keep your grades as high as possible, and study for the GRE.

Good luck!

I certainly hope I have a shot and I hope my hard work will show through. I am actually looking to see if there are any research opportunities available while I work on my bachelors. I do have a question though, what is a poster?

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond and reassure me that I haven't totally lost my mind.....YET...LOL

Rosie

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Some follow up questions:

1. Can you say more about your research career goals? Some of the faculty folks here can chime in, but I would think being over your mid 30's could be a big obstacle to being hired there. Do they want a prof that can work for another 40 yrs or another 20 yrs?
2. Will you be able to relocate for internship? Or after you get your degree?
3. Could you do what you want to do with an experimental psych degree rather than a clinical one?
4. Why the double major?

Best,
Dr. E

 

[CheetahGirl]

It' hard to say what your chances are - but acceptances rates for Clinical PhD programs range between 5 and 15%.

This is true.

Not asking for anyone to tell me it will all work out. I'm actually looking for the reality of the situation at best. I already know I am limited to the schools I can apply for since hubby is coming close to retirement and can't just up and leave his job. I will only have a few programs I can apply to while still maintaining where I live. Unless of course that would let me sleep under my research desk...LOL

Thanks for all the help in advance. I really do want to pursue this dream and I know that I can do the work involved.

Rosie

Welcome Rosie,

We should all attempt to overcome obstacles, and follow our ambitions & dreams to fulfill our goals ~ to me, this is what life's all about. 😉

One thing you wrote struck me as most important: Searching for a reality-check, so to speak, by posting your situation here...SDN is a great place to start.

I'll be in my early 40s when I finish my PhD in clinical psychology, but I think realistically most applicants are in their mid to late twenties, and often finishing in their early thirties. People entering programs in their forties are the exception because you must consider the longevity of one's career. Most programs want to vest interest in those who will benefit from a life-long career and/or become academic innovators in the field bringing recognition to their training programs. Realistically, programs will consider your date of birth, not in a discriminatory sort of way, but in an intriguing way, like "What has she/he been doing with her/his life?" What has brought her/him to our doorsteps now?" You must be an exemplary and a brilliant candidate because you will be compared with outstanding bright-eyed, bushy-tailed ‘youths' that live and breathe this field. Don't get me wrong, you will be evaluated for your own credentials, but programs want the best of the best. They want to the strongest candidate with the most potential, who will be open to change, constructive criticism, and constant evaluation.

For me, it has been a rough road, but one that I would do all over again because it is the career of my choice and one that suits my talents and interests. My family & I have had to sacrifice a lot (I have a husband & children, but mine are all young so you know how hectic life can get!). But, I would've deeply regretted not trying to succeed.

I think you have a shot for sure, and what you have now (while working on your Associates) is foresight. It will be important for you to be at the very top of the prospective candidate list to follow through with the doctoral degree (starting in your forties), especially if academia is ‘new' to you. No need to be perfect – no one is, but you must have a very high GPA, high GRE scores, find some research work with your psychology professors, volunteer for exposure to certain clinical populations (crisis hotlines or advocate support groups), develop good relations with your professors for strong letters of recommendation, and know your ‘story' and how to talk & write about it in your personal statement. Your story could be your career change, your epiphany, your insight, your experience, but whatever it is that made you pursue this goal NOW at whatever age you will be. And be confident in yourself and your abilities. Sounds like a ‘tall order,' but if you have it in you, then it's not ‘tall' at all…its par for the course. 😎

Another thing going for you is being in the NJ-NYC area. There are many programs that are within commuting distance and the level of training is outstanding. This is not a limitation, but a benefit.

Best of luck!

P.S. A ‘poster' or academic poster, is an academic display of independent research, usually 36" x 48" that is presented at academic conferences. Google will be your friend - Look up everything and it will give the information you need, but when you need legitimate sources of information, seek only peer-reviewed materials because these materials are under the scrutiny of true ‘experts' in the field.

 

[ForPsycStudent]

Just popping in very briefly since i have to get back to work. I haven't forgotten this thread. I will answer the questions posed when I get home later this afternoon.

As always, thank you for those who stepped up and responded.

Rosie

 

[psychedout69]

Just popping in very briefly since i have to get back to work. I haven't forgotten this thread. I will answer the questions posed when I get home later this afternoon.

As always, thank you for those who stepped up and responded.

Rosie

I would just go the online route if you want to work with criminals and do research in the prisons. That is one field where you won't have trouble finding a job, and there are always plenty of openings. Contact your states department of corrections to confirm, but in my state -- 95% of the hires are from online schools, and there is no APA requirement. They advertise that it's required for tuition reimbursement, but I've found out through friends who have gotten it anyway that this is not true. They also have the best paying post-docs.

 

[Pragma]

Was that a troll? Because I would never recommend an online program.

 

[erg923]

Was that a troll? Because I would never recommend an online program.

Seems ironic that one would recommend a educational modality that has produced so little for them and hindered them so greatly. Weird...

 

[ForPsycStudent]

Wow, I guess someone must think I actually live 20 feet underground, because even my granddaughter knows an online degree is fairly useless. Oh well, guess there has to be at least one in every crowd.

Dr. E, I can answer a couple of your questions now. The other I have to think on and answer when I am a bit more awake.

1. Can you say more about your research career goals?
Well, as I stated in the first post I want to work with the darker side of the population in respect to those who have committed heinous crimes. I feel that there is something beyond just the psyche that triggers one to commit the act, more so allow themselves to commit the act. Perhaps a trigger within the DNA coding that switches on. An example of this or at least one that I can think of off hand would be cancer. There might be 100 people who carry the gene for cancer, but perhaps only in five of them will the gene 'turn on' allowing the body to create cancer cells.

Perhaps I am pulling at straws, but we see far too many cases of heinous crimes being comitted no matter how one was raised or cared for. I feel nature versus nurture can influence one, but there has to be something deeper within, something intrinsic within that persons coding that flips on.

Feel free to tell me I'm crazy for thinking there is a link, might actually be good to know prior to all this schooling...🙂 NOT that I will let it stop me.

4. Why the double major?

Primary reason for the double major, to have an understanding of the laws and population that I would like to research. A better understanding of the whole picture of what happens when a crime is committed from the ground up. I feel that there would possibly be a bit more respect when working with the legal aspect due to at least having the basics as well as helping to ask the right questions of the authorities.

As you can see I am trying to think this all through and make the best decisions that I can. I am still trying to research and read to see what areas or area would be best suited for what I would like to do (i.e. social, experimental...) and what the differences are between them all. I am hoping with some guidance, more reading and research along with some time I will be able to choose the right path.

Rosie

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Honestly, I think your biggest challenge is going to be finding a school with an appropriate research fit given that you are geographically restricted. Behavioral genetics research is really interesting and useful, but it isn't something that every school will have faculty doing. Are you aware of any faculty at reasonably close institutions doing work that is a fit with your own interests?

Best,
Dr. E

 

[CheetahGirl]

Perhaps I am pulling at straws, but we see far too many cases of heinous crimes being comitted no matter how one was raised or cared for. I feel nature versus nurture can influence one, but there has to be something deeper within, something intrinsic within that persons coding that flips on.

Just on a side note: The nature versus nurture debate is 'resolved, ' and they are both extremely important and influential. One must consider the combination of both simultaneously when evaluating any individual's case. However, to your point, yes, there certanily may be genetic correlates to personalities and behaviors of those who committed crimes.

On a tangent: I get enraged when people mention that the person who committed the heinous crime in Newton CT had been diagnosed with autism. That is definitely "barking up the wrong tree," especially clinically because autism spectrum disorders are not empirically linked to violence. There may be anecdotal evidence (and this is one of them), but you cannot generalize these disorders with violent behaviors. For him, my opinion was that nurture (or the lack thereof) had a stronger role on the outcome based on secondary media reports on his social alienation (beyond the reported diagnosis), family dynamics, and lack of proper mental health care. (But, it is not appropriate for me to base any professional opinion on this matter - this is just an example of nature and nurture, and one place where the mass media is getting it wrong.)

I like Dr. E's point about looking into behavioral genetics. You can become an assistant researcher at the Master's level. However, based on what you wrote, if want to work with this population and decide to stop at the master's level, I would look into Social Work programs because of the clinical exposure. As a researcher, you get limited clinical
exposure.

 

[ForPsycStudent]

Honestly, I think your biggest challenge is going to be finding a school with an appropriate research fit given that you are geographically restricted. Behavioral genetics research is really interesting and useful, but it isn't something that every school will have faculty doing. Are you aware of any faculty at reasonably close institutions doing work that is a fit with your own interests?

Best,
Dr. E

I have been trying to see what they are working on at John Jay which is just a train ride away. I also looked into Rutgers which is my state school. Too be honest, I read through all the faculty and their current research and I have been reading so much and doing so much research on what might be a good fit that I can't remember what everyone is working on. I also looked into Princeton, that is one of the few where I didn't think there was any type of match that would even closely relate.

Of course it's not helping that I just went back to work after having to take a sick leave for a severe vitamin D deficiency, and instead of breaking in slowly I have been going full throttle. By the time I am getting home at the end of the day, pulling 8-9 hours (usually work p/t for a school district) I'm too wiped out to try and read for more than an hour or so.

I am going to try and look back through the programs that are local to see where everything is. More and more though it looks like I might be a better candidate for Social Work even though I really want to go into the psychological end. I do think you hit it right on the head though as far as what my interests are, the behavioral genetics.

Rose

 

[ForPsycStudent]

Just on a side note: The nature versus nurture debate is 'resolved, ' and they are both extremely important and influential. One must consider the combination of both simultaneously when evaluating any individual's case. However, to your point, yes, there certainly may be genetic correlates to personalities and behaviors of those who committed crimes.

Please understand, I don't disagree that the nature versus nurture debate whether 'resolved' or not..😀 does not influence or hold a factor of importance. What I do feel is, that due to them the chemical changes in the brain and neuro system from the hormones produced or not produced might be the trigger, or link that turns the 'gene' on. Again, this is me thinking out loud, I might sound like an idiot to those who have completed all their schooling, but even some idiots plant a seed that grows...

On a tangent: I get enraged when people mention that the person who committed the heinous crime in Newton CT had been diagnosed with autism. That is definitely "barking up the wrong tree," especially clinically because autism spectrum disorders are not empirically linked to violence. There may be anecdotal evidence (and this is one of them), but you cannot generalize the disorders with violent behaviors. For him, my opinion was that nurture (or the lack thereof) had a stronger role the outcome based on secondary media reports on his social alienation (independent of reported diagnosis), family dynamics, and lack of proper mental health care.

I haven't had too much exposure to the media outlets around this whole case, primarily due to being a military mom and not wanting to expose myself to some of the ludicrous claims the media reports. Pretty much watch 10 different channels and you will have 20 different stories to sort through. You might actually have more information outside of what the media has reported.

What I can say on this whole Newtown CT. tragedy, is like you, I was enraged that they even brought up the fact that the person who did this was on the Autism Spectrum. The reasons for this is I deal with children in our school system on a regular basis as a school bus driver. We do our best to transport children who are on what I would base as the mid to high functioning Autistic Spectrum on our regular buses. Obviously one of the first criteria is they have to have the ability to communicate with us verbally so that we can do our best as a driver to make their experience as positive as possible. I also spend another six weeks in the summer transporting children with an attendant for special needs children who don't fit the 'high' functioning category. We have had very few incidences where an autistic child has acted out in a way where they would endanger someone. In all of these incidences they were children who could not communicate verbally with the use of language to communicate their needs. Again, in almost all incidences the outbursts occurred due to an incident in school that became a point of frustration to them. So now back to the original point, I agree that violence is not a 'natural' aspect of this spectrum. I also feel, that the logical portion of my brain would tell me that this was a high functioning individual since he was able to make the decision to do this, knew what he needed to carry this out, and than drive himself to the site. So, my point is, I don't feel the Autism had much of anything in factoring in to what transpired. While he may have been frustrated, his lack of social functioning, to me, plays a much more important roll in what transpired. While yes, some of this can be an offshoot of the Autism, he was still high functioning enough to carry this out. This then leads me to the fact that if he was treated properly through mental health avenues, which should have been the responsibility of his caregivers when he was younger, he may have possibly had enough of a social base to discuss any possible frustrations he had. Also, I don't think we know when this Autism Spectrum DX was made, perhaps there were other underlying issues that had he been treated may have led to sociopathic tendencies. Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever truly know what caused this whole thing. We can speculate until the cows come home and unless we were to see all his medical reports, this will be played out in the media in whatever way will get them a news story and high ratings.

I will again use my disclaimer of, I might appear to be a total idiot who knows absolutely nothing about anything other than the psych courses I have already taken. The fact remains though that discussions like these actually help those of us to use our brain and think outside the box because very rarely does everything fit in the box.

I like Dr. E's point about looking into behavioral genetics. You can become an assistant researcher at the Master's level. However, based on what you wrote, if want to work with this population and decide to stop at the master's level, I would look into Social Work programs because of the clinical exposure. As a researcher, you get limited clinical
exposure.

You're not the only one who likes Dr. E's point of looking into behavioral genetics. As for being an assistant researcher, that might not be the most horrible fate (working for my bosses now, that's a horrible fate) and if that is the route I have no other option to take, than that is obviously where I am supposed to be. The only way I will stop at my Masters is if after I have applied for a second time to grad school and I'm pretty much told, "Move on, you're an old fart."

Rosie

 

[Carrie82]

I did not read every post on this thread, and it will certainly go without saying to those who are not at a for profit professional school, but whatever you do, do not allow the for profit professional school model to be your back up. I did, and while it may work out for me in the end, so far I have truly experienced the for-profit corporate wait to fail model in all it's hideousness. You must understand that it is not simply the reputation, not simply the large cohorts, not simply the lesser education (although you can make up for this on your own), not eventually the lesser job prospects and massive debt loads. All of these things are true and bad enough, but in my experience there is a blatant attempt to remove students even if they are at the top of their class through blatantly corrupt financial aid practices. I never know how much money I can borrow each semester, I'm not making this up, they NEVER allow themselves to be pinned down on any number for tuition costs or the remainder you will live on, and refuse to answer questions as to why this is. Not being able to get any straight answer I have been afraid to take this to the department of education for fear of ending up with nothing to live on at some point. I know someone who transferred within the same program from an area of low cost of living to one of a higher cost of living-much higher-and saw their cost of attendance REDUCED, living on $1100/month in a major metropolitan area where half of that was going to rent and that was in a very poor part of the city and a shared room, in an environment that was so hostile to simple mental health the person dropped out of the program. In my opinion this school does this in order to remove students who cannot live on what the school allows them to borrow, and they further reduce numbers that way AFTER they have A LOT of your money, no matter what grades the student is getting. Why else would a school purposefully change someone's "stipend" each term, for no reason other than their stated policy of "individualizing budgets," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Okay, I'm not a big poster here so this got away from me, but I really needed to get his out somewhere. Do not attend one of the for-profit professional schools. I do not have experience with the non-profit professional schools.

 

[ForPsycStudent]

I did not read every post on this thread, and it will certainly go without saying to those who are not at a for profit professional school, but whatever you do, do not allow the for profit professional school model to be your back up. I did, and while it may work out for me in the end, so far I have truly experienced the for-profit corporate wait to fail model in all it's hideousness. You must understand that it is not simply the reputation, not simply the large cohorts, not simply the lesser education (although you can make up for this on your own), not eventually the lesser job prospects and massive debt loads. All of these things are true and bad enough, but in my experience there is a blatant attempt to remove students even if they are at the top of their class through blatantly corrupt financial aid practices. I never know how much money I can borrow each semester, I'm not making this up, they NEVER allow themselves to be pinned down on any number for tuition costs or the remainder you will live on, and refuse to answer questions as to why this is. Not being able to get any straight answer I have been afraid to take this to the department of education for fear of ending up with nothing to live on at some point. I know someone who transferred within the same program from an area of low cost of living to one of a higher cost of living-much higher-and saw their cost of attendance REDUCED, living on $1100/month in a major metropolitan area where half of that was going to rent and that was in a very poor part of the city and a shared room, in an environment that was so hostile to simple mental health the person dropped out of the program. In my opinion this school does this in order to remove students who cannot live on what the school allows them to borrow, and they further reduce numbers that way AFTER they have A LOT of your money, no matter what grades the student is getting. Why else would a school purposefully change someone's "stipend" each term, for no reason other than their stated policy of "individualizing budgets," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. Okay, I'm not a big poster here so this got away from me, but I really needed to get his out somewhere. Do not attend one of the for-profit professional schools. I do not have experience with the non-profit professional schools.

Thanks for outlining your experiences with a private school Carrie. That is probably the main reason why I refuse to go to a private school. While I might want to be educated in the worst way, i refuse to come out with loans totaling more than what I paid for my house and 2 cars.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks for outlining your experiences with a private school Carrie. That is probably the main reason why I refuse to go to a private school. While I might want to be educated in the worst way, i refuse to come out with loans totaling more than what I paid for my house and 2 cars.

Just a quick correction--Carrie had mentioned attending a for-profit professional school, not simply a private school (which is of course a much more general term, and in which many traditional and reputable psychology programs that offer tuition remissions + stipends are housed).

 

[Carrie82]

Just a quick correction--Carrie had mentioned attending a for-profit professional school, not simply a private school (which is of course a much more general term, and in which many traditional and reputable psychology programs that offer tuition remissions + stipends are housed).

Yes, and I can't even speak for the non-profit professional schools. They may do things differently, but the for-profit education model is nothing more than a disguised parasitic relationship. My experience on the psychology side has been bad enough, but I know people who are experiencing similar nonsense at state-run public schools as undergraduates. The experiences are nothing compared to mine, but the "corporate" model is infecting everything to do with education. Where does it end?

 

[deleted407083]

Yes, and I can't even speak for the non-profit professional schools. They may do things differently, but the for-profit education model is nothing more than a disguised parasitic relationship. My experience on the psychology side has been bad enough, but I know people who are experiencing similar nonsense at state-run public schools as undergraduates. The experiences are nothing compared to mine, but the "corporate" model is infecting everything to do with education. Where does it end?

Totally agree. There is definitely a separation. I attend a professional non-profit university which provides scholarships, tuition remission, and work study. It reduces my debt drastically, but I'm still paying some due to the high private school costs. I couldn't imagine going to a FSPS however, that would be terrible.

 

[Pragma]

As I have mentioned in the past, there is a huge psychological difference when the school invests in YOU as opposed to you paying for your training. They want you to succeed, you want to succeed, and they have put their money where their mouth is. I can't condone the FSPS model at all, as it just is a business that is selling a (generally bad) product.

To the OP - this might have gotten derailed a little bit, but I wanted to mention that I have seen some mentors that really favor nontraditional students. My mentor probably took about half of their students at ages 30+, and I knew of one in their 40s and one in their 50s. Some people place a great value on your experience and the perspective you will bring to the research team. So good luck!

 

[Lisa44201]

To the OP - this might have gotten derailed a little bit, but I wanted to mention that I have seen some mentors that really favor nontraditional students. My mentor probably took about half of their students at ages 30+, and I knew of one in their 40s and one in their 50s. Some people place a great value on your experience and the perspective you will bring to the research team. So good luck!

This. I am the only non-trad in my cohort, and my mentor at both my current Master's program and my upcoming PhD program and I connected over our respective experiences as parents. In both cases, my status as a slightly older, married-with-kids student has been a bonus, not a hindrance. Good luck to you!

 

[ForPsycStudent]

Thank you Pragma and Lisa. I try to be pretty quick to respond but my husband and myself had to take a drive to North Carolina this weekend to see my son who is in the military.

I certainly hope you are both right and I can actually connect with someone who will see that while I might be older than the norm, I might also have more to bring to the table as far as life experiences that would help to foster research.

Rosie