Help! Should I take undergrad courses while in grad school?

[penhorseblue]

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Hi everyone,

Just wanted to say first off that reading through this forum of the struggles and stories have been really inspiring to me, especially the success stories!

I was wondering if it possible to take undergrad science courses while you are a graduate student? Is there a grad program or SMP that will allow you to do this? I have 233 units (science and non-science courses) from undergrad and I was a Bio major so I have all my pre-reqs done but I still need to raise my science GPA.
I ultimately want to go to med school and I know I have to do an SMP or grad program since all my pre-reqs are covered (even though I didn’t do so well, mostly Bs and Cs). I worked a little too much in undergrad, and was not good at managing my time to spend studying for my classes.

My Stats:
Graduated ’05 B.S. Biology
overall gpa: 2.85
BCPM: ~2.6
MCAT: took in Aug (waiting for scores)
Taking GRE as back-up score
Lots of volunteer experience, research, and work experience
Since graduating I’m working as a research assistant full-time

The only person that has really mentioned taking undergrad courses while in grad school this is relentless11 who from what I have read is taking undergrad science courses while enrolled in a Ph.D program. However, I don’t want to pursue a Ph.D in order to take undergrad courses for free. I’m willing to pay the tuition (take out loans if I have to), it’s just I don’t know when I should take the classes or if I should even bother since I (hopefully) will be using my grad/SMP gpa.

I’m hoping to be accepted into a graduate program for Fall 07 but until then I have to continue working fulltime (to pay student loans, pay off credit card debts, save $ for grad school) so I have no time to take undergrad science courses. There are also no universities near where I live that offer upper division science courses at night.

I think my only way to raise my undergrad sci GPA is to take upper-division sciences courses but when can I do this? Please if anyone knows what I can do, I would really appreciate any advice!

 

[Maxprime]

Everyone you talk to will stress the need to do well in grad school, but also that undergrad GPAs are weighted much more than graduate GPAs. With a sub-3.0 undergrad GPA, I think that the vast majority of people would suggest you bring that up with full effort BEFORE attending grad school.

 

[Sundarban1]

Graduate level classes will not help your GPA if you are applying to Allopathic schools. What you need to look for is either a formal post bacc, or a local university where you can take the classes on your own. With a sub average GPA it will be significantly harder to get into the more competative formal programs.

Osteopathic schools do in fact combine graduate and undergraduate classes when calculating GPA, however either way I don't think you should just do a graduate program just for the hell of it.

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to say first off that reading through this forum of the struggles and stories have been really inspiring to me, especially the success stories!

I was wondering if it possible to take undergrad science courses while you are a graduate student? Is there a grad program or SMP that will allow you to do this? I have 233 units (science and non-science courses) from undergrad and I was a Bio major so I have all my pre-reqs done but I still need to raise my science GPA.
I ultimately want to go to med school and I know I have to do an SMP or grad program since all my pre-reqs are covered (even though I didn’t do so well, mostly Bs and Cs). I worked a little too much in undergrad, and was not good at managing my time to spend studying for my classes.

My Stats:
Graduated ’05 B.S. Biology
overall gpa: 2.85
BCPM: ~2.6
MCAT: took in Aug (waiting for scores)
Taking GRE as back-up score
Lots of volunteer experience, research, and work experience
Since graduating I’m working as a research assistant full-time

The only person that has really mentioned taking undergrad courses while in grad school this is relentless11 who from what I have read is taking undergrad science courses while enrolled in a Ph.D program. However, I don’t want to pursue a Ph.D in order to take undergrad courses for free. I’m willing to pay the tuition (take out loans if I have to), it’s just I don’t know when I should take the classes or if I should even bother since I (hopefully) will be using my grad/SMP gpa.

I’m hoping to be accepted into a graduate program for Fall 07 but until then I have to continue working fulltime (to pay student loans, pay off credit card debts, save $ for grad school) so I have no time to take undergrad science courses. There are also no universities near where I live that offer upper division science courses at night.

I think my only way to raise my undergrad sci GPA is to take upper-division sciences courses but when can I do this? Please if anyone knows what I can do, I would really appreciate any advice!

 

[Instatewaiter]

Everyone you talk to will stress the need to do well in grad school, but also that undergrad GPAs are weighted much more than graduate GPAs. With a sub-3.0 undergrad GPA, I think that the vast majority of people would suggest you bring that up with full effort BEFORE attending grad school.

Personally I don't agree with the taking of lots of undergrad courses if you have already done the pre-recs and especially since you majored in bio. I majored in bio in 2005 and ended with a GPA of ~2.8 overall and about the same for Sci courses. I did a 1 year graduate program at VCU/MCV and did very well. I now go to MCV medical school and got in w/o a glide year.

The Ugrad courses seem to me, to be a waste of time. If you are near the top of the Grad program/SMP you are almost gauranteed to get into the associated medical school.

It is different based on where you live though. In California it is very hard to get into any of the Cali medical schools so circumstances are different. For example, in my class, the people from California make up a quarter of our out-of-state students. So 48 other states represent 3/4 of the OOSers while california alone makes up 1/4.

Here on the east coast there are a lot of schools that will accept a great graduate student who has a shoddy Ugrad record. If you are looking to go to the best medical school in the country, my way probably won't work. But if you are looking just to get in to a middle of the pack med school, this will get you there faster without having to take Ugrad courses while doing a masters or PhD.

Which do you think is a better predictor of how you will do in medical school, a 200 level biology class or Medical Biochemistry?
Orgo Chem or Medical Neuroanatomy?
Physics or Medical Physiology?

My bet is the Grad courses that are the same as the medical courses you will take first year in medical school are a better predictor than the intro bio you took the first year you came to college. Pretty sure many Adcoms think this way too.

 

[Maxprime]

A few opinions (I stress the word opinion):

1) If you go with that mentality (getting in where you did your SMP/grad program), you are gambling. If you don't get in there, you are applying to other schools w/ a crappy UGrad GPA (leads to my next point).

2) Numbers don't lie. Look at the matriculation rates of applicants with 2.8's versus 3.2's. With a crappy GPA, you are very highly probable to not get in anywhere. There are exceptions to the rule, but numbers don't lie.

3) ADCOMS have stated quite often that they don't care about graduate GPAs nearly as much as undergrads. Look at the number of people with 4.0's at respected graduate programs but 2.8's UG and don't get many interviews. ADCOMS' easiest tools to evaluate are undergrad GPA and MCAT b/c everyone has them.

4) A lot of schools automatically reject <3.0's to save time.

 

[relentless11]

Personally I don't agree with the taking of lots of undergrad courses if you have already done the pre-recs and especially since you majored in bio. I majored in bio in 2005 and ended with a GPA of ~2.8 overall and about the same for Sci courses. I did a 1 year graduate program at VCU/MCV and did very well. I now go to MCV medical school and got in w/o a glide year.

The Ugrad courses seem to me, to be a waste of time. If you are near the top of the Grad program/SMP you are almost gauranteed to get into the associated medical school.

You are clearly an outlier in this case. If this situation applied to everyone, then post-baccs wouldn't be as popular as they are, and I wouldn't be taking undergrad classes as a PhD student. In fact I would've applied this past June, and thrown in cumulative grad GPA of 4.0 consisting of 1.5 years worth of med/grad level classes, as well as a score of 36 on the MCAT. Why didn't I do it? 1) Undergrad GPA would be 2.65-2.7, 2) The director of admissions at our school told me to take more undergrad classes. In fact, I spoke with him before applying to grad school. He said, if you want to boost your UG GPA, then do post-bacc, or somehow take upper division science classes. Due to costs, and knowing grad school is "free", I asked him if i did a grad program that allowed me to take undergrad classes as electives. He said that is fine aslong as the program lets me.

The whole undergrad GPA > grad GPA is on par with other schools as well. At the recent AMSA sponsored meeting, we spoke with deans of admissions from the UC med schools, as well as USC, Stanford, Harvard, etc. They all favored post-bacc (and SMP) over traditional grad school. However they pointed out for my situation, they will have to review my whole app since I'm an oddball...seeing how I took med school classes for grade, and what not. But for the most part, they discourage grad school for those that need GPA rehab.

Why is this? Upper division undergrad classes, at least here at the schools under the University of California can be on par with med level courses. I took the med school's biochemistry course relating to molecular and cell bio. Its THE SAME thing we learned at the undergrad level. In fact the undergrad level may be harder due to all the laboratory techniques you need to know. In fact, at UC Davis, UCLA, UCSD, and UCI, there are a plethora of undergrad classes that parallel in subject, and difficulty as their med school counter parts....not to mention they are often times taught by the same faculty!

So I hardly think that taking more undergrad classes is a waste of time, aslong as you have a broad course selection. But in the end, it is a common trend that undergrad GPA >> grad GPA, however the caveat is they will certainly look at things on a case by case basis. Therefore my suggestion to the OP is, if you have a choice, do an SMP or post-bacc. It is VERY challenging to complete ones graduate degree requirements, and take upper division undergrad courses, do research required for your degree, and other EC's...all the while maintaining a 4.0 GPA. Given a choice, I would've done an SMP or post-bacc, but money is finite, and we don't have SMPs in California😉.....plus I like research, and wanted to be an MD/PhD anyway🙂 .

My Stats:
Graduated '05 B.S. Biology
overall gpa: 2.85
BCPM: ~2.6
MCAT: took in Aug (waiting for scores)
Taking GRE as back-up score
Lots of volunteer experience, research, and work experience
Since graduating I'm working as a research assistant full-time

The only person that has really mentioned taking undergrad courses while in grad school this is relentless11 who from what I have read is taking undergrad science courses while enrolled in a Ph.D program. However, I don't want to pursue a Ph.D in order to take undergrad courses for free. I'm willing to pay the tuition (take out loans if I have to), it's just I don't know when I should take the classes or if I should even bother since I (hopefully) will be using my grad/SMP gpa.

Look on the bright side though, your cumulative undergrad GPA was higher than mine😉. Like i said though, its rough. Even as a masters student, my friends are having a hard time finding time to get their research done. Its certainly POSSIBLE, but certainly NOT OPTIMAL. After talking with those deans of admissions as stated above, its crucial to get the undergrad GPA up to a 3.0. Although its entirely possible as Instatewaiter said to get in with a UG GPA of <3.0 when combined with some other evidence of improved performance, it certainly looks BETTER if you had a 3.0 UG GPA combined with such evidence of better performance. That number 3 in front of the decimal makes the difference. I once read somewhere that those prices that are "$2.99" or "2.95" create a pseudo-sense of being super cheap compared to "$3.00". So perhaps the same thing applies. Anyway, I'm not sure if i said this to you, since I suck at remembering what i post on these forums, but UC's screen GPA, so, if you're GPA is <3.0, you are likely not going to get a secondary.

True UC's sometimes look at why you got poor grades and may grant you a secondary when they deem your reasons to be worthy, and when combined with evidence of improved performance, but you still have to get an interview, and survive what happens post-interview when they have screened out everyone else that didn't make it. So I would prefer to be in the best position as possible, especially with the UC's. If you are competative at a UC, then you are pretty decent at other schools in the nation IMO. Good luck!

 

[penhorseblue]

Thanks for all your advice everyone! I'm considering all my options to improve my undergrad GPA and so I really appreciate all the input! 🙂