help ... starting to question myself

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

wi girl

Wisconsin SVM c/o 2012
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
447
Reaction score
0
Hey guys.

So, not sure if everyone knows/remembers, but I adopted a cocker spaniel about a month ago. she was an addition to the cocker spaniel I already had.

In the month that she's been with me, she urinates in the house a ton, and has displayed possession aggression. Essentially, I can't approach her/touch her when she's chewing on something, or she growls at me. Tonight, she got into the closet when I keep the food, and when I went to pick her up to get her out of the food and the closet, she bit me.

I'm not sure what to do. Obviously she doesn't see me as the alpha, which would require obedience training. But what if that doesn't help?

Since the bite, my other dog is now super protective of me, and is growling at the adopted one. I feel like this is not really a healthy situation, and really debating whether this is a "accept that I need to give the dog back" or "take more time to wait it out" situation.

Further, this is really making me second guess my abilities to handle animals, and my ability to become a good vet. If I can't control my "own" dog, how can I advise others?

I don;t know if a reply is even possible, I just really needed to rant/complain/etc a bit. Although, if you want to weigh in, please do.

Members don't see this ad.
 
First of all, I don't think you should give the dog up. I don't know the situation with the dog (i.e. if it was a formerly abused rescue, a puppy, etc.), but different dogs have different issues that need work. I firmly believe that with most, if not all, issues that a dog may have, there IS a way to overcome them. Haven't you ever watched The Dog Whisperer? :p It may take a lot of time and patience. Have you asked your vet for advice?

Secondly, I don't think that this situation foreshadows that you won't be a good vet! Don't be ridiculous! Just because you're going to vet school, it doesn't mean that you should know every detail about the behavioral issues of dogs and how they should be handled. While I did say to ask your vet for advice, I'd be willing to say that he/she might not even know the best answer (but I'm sure can steer you in the right direction)!

So, go talk to your vet and watch some Caesar Milan. ;)
 
You're going through a rough patch with your new dog, it happens to everyone. Animals are stubborn and unpredictable--just because you're now a vet student doesn't mean you should automatically know how to handle every situation that would arise. Behavioral stuff is really difficult, it will take time know how to remedy her urination/ aggression issues. Hang in there, and don't beat yourself up.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Sorry to hear that wi girl, but it's nothing you can't work with, especially because this dog is really young and you are probably one of the more capable owners it could likely have.

Whatever you do, please do not follow any of the 'dog whisperer' crap! Cesar Millan (?) subscribes to an outdated, archaic philosophy about dog training and social structure and I think he does a great disservice to many people and their dogs. IMO what you need is some help creating a positive-feedback/reward system with your dog. You'll have to break this whole scenario into tiny tangible bits and reward your dog for all the good things it does and ignore the rest. It's very hard work and it takes planning/strategy/goals, but is totally doable if you can be disciplined and consistent yourself.

If you haven't done much of this type of dog training, I highly recommend looking into it.

Out of curiosity, was this puppy acquired from a breeder?
 
Well, the problem is, she's not a puppy .... she's 7 years old. And never demonstrated these behaviors with the foster family AT ALL. So .... that leaves me to wonder what it is that I"M doing that is causing this.
 
Oh, a seven-year old.

That's a different story.

As for the behaviors, it might have something to do with another dog in the house ('sharing resources'). Did the foster family have another dog around?
 
Yup, like 6 of them.

I just don't know what's going on!
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I can understand how frustrated and conflicted you must feel. I just wanted to chime in because I don't think Cesar Millan should be so summarily dismissed. I think there is a lot of merit to his philosophy and it can be very helpful when used, if not as scripture, then as a general approach. Personally I found his book, Cesar's Way, to be educational; it improved my relationship with my dog and helped to correct an unwanted behavior.

A positive reinforcement/reward system may work, but I've come to believe that dogs will respond more effectively and naturally to strong, calm leadership. Cesar teaches people how to become "alpha" in their dogs' eyes, which some may call "archaic" but here it seems absolutely necessary in order to reverse the dynamic of your relationship and temper the dog's aggression.

Whatever your approach, I agree 100% that it will be hard work requiring discipline and consistency. Good luck!
 
Wi Girl....

First, I am so sorry to hear about your problems with your newly adopted dog. I work at a shelter (have done so for 9 years now) and have seen others in similar situations. It's heartbreaking for sure to take on a new adult dog and have so many issues that you begin to question your own capabilities.

Don't give up--but do a bit of research. First, I would talk to your vet. You mentioned that he didn't have such problems in his foster home. If he's displaying such a dramatic personality/behavior change, perhaps there is a medical reason. He's older, at 7 years. You never know.

I would also contact the shelter where you obtained him. Is it possible that you could get additional information from his foster family? Even if they won't let you speak to them directly, perhaps they would allow you to make up a list of questions to ask them. Not all foster families are created equal, to be sure--but many are highly experienced and observant. Maybe they had several other dogs....But did they feed him separately? How long did they have him? Sometimes dogs don't show possession issues right away in a new setting. It's only once they've settled in a bit that those behaviors sometimes become apparent. If he was in a foster situation only briefly, it may not have been enough time. If the shelter has some type of intake profile from a prior home, this might be helpful as well--indicative of a more permanent living situation he had in the past.

I would also speak to a behaviorist, if possible. Your vet may be able to help here. Some shelters (such as where I work) offer training services as well as private consultations with a behaviorist. It can get pricey, but it may be worth it in the long run.

One other question: What was the initial introduction with your dog like? And where did it occur? If the first time they met was at your home, it makes sense that your other dog might be getting protective of you. We have adopters bring their current dog to the shelter for those first intros, so that we can supervise their initial reactions on more "neutral" territory.

I hope that this is at least a little helpful. Best wishes, and please keep us posted. :oops:
 
Whatever you do, please do not follow any of the 'dog whisperer' crap! Cesar Millan (?) subscribes to an outdated, archaic philosophy about dog training and social structure and I think he does a great disservice to many people and their dogs. IMO what you need is some help creating a positive-feedback/reward system with your dog. You'll have to break this whole scenario into tiny tangible bits and reward your dog for all the good things it does and ignore the rest. It's very hard work and it takes planning/strategy/goals, but is totally doable if you can be disciplined and consistent yourself.

So, because he uses an outdated, archaic philosophy, it automatically means it's not effective or it's bad? Have you ever even watched the show or been exposed to this type of training to see how effective it really is? I think the main reason why his method is so effective is due to the fact that dogs are indeed pack animals. Plus, he utilizes many of the characteristics you mentioned: discipline, consistency, strategy, utilizing a positive-feedback approach... I'm curious as to why you think his method is "crap" while everything his philosophy teaches is very humane, effective, and a "back to basics" strategy that a dog actually understands!
 
I will be talking to my vet in the next few days; she's been checked out, and she has tested positive for early renal disease, but the proteinurea and low albumin levels were seen in blood work done while she was in rescue .... which was for SEVERAL months (8 or so).

I've been working with the rescue to find out more; they had several dogs, and fed them at the same time, but she never (it was in caps) displayed this behavior.

I was going to try obedience classes to see if that will make her see me as the alpha, if you will. I also am feeling out different behaviorists, getting references, etc.

They did first meet in my home, but my other dog was not protective of me until she saw Leah (adopted) bite me. Understandable, just a concern that she won't get over it.

Thanks everyone for their well wishes and advise so far -- I was just getting so discouraged that I don't really seem to be making progress. And the thought of sinking so much money into obedience and behavior consults slightly scares me given the debt I will accrue in August, and the possibility that despite all that, it may not work. I guess we'll see how it goes, and I'll keep everyone updated.
 
I'm going to second the 'don't use Cesar Milan's Methods!' opinion. His methods may be effective, but they're not the only way to go about things.
I disagree with them, but realize that different people have different opinions on it. There IS one thing, however, that needs pointing out:

His methods are DANGEROUS if you don't know what you're doing. Sure, HE might get success - and he's a good showman so he can really sell the methods. The thing that FREAKS me out about him are people who watch his show and think "Oh, I can do that!" and put themselves in dangerous situations without knowing the full theory/method/how to deal when it goes wrong.

There are better, safer (for you) ways to go about solving problems.

/soapbox

Don't know if you've had a chance to look at NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) at all, but I've had a lot of success with it with my border collie rescue (he was unsocialized, didn't know how to deal with people, and had never lived inside...so we had some issues when we first got him. Now he's a complete lapdog.) I also know of many people who have had success using this method to solve all sorts of behavioral problems.

There are a few links below, but the basic premise is that the dog has to work for EVERYTHING. No exceptions. Walk? Sit first. Put leash on? Stay for a minute. Dinner time? Sit, shake, lay down - for each kibble to start with, if need be. The idea is to teach them self-control, while also building trust so that they know that you control all the resources, but you will give them those resources when they need them.

To make it work, it takes dedication at the beginning - literally everything the dog likes, they have to do something to earn. But in most cases, you can back off a bit once things are improving, and find a happy medium in asking/receiving (maybe they don't have to sit/stay for EVERY walk, but you ask enough that you're sure they would if you wanted it).

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm
 
Those were great links, DVMorBust. The rescue actually suggested that I start obedience and then implement this. She does know sit, so start with this command, and then incorporate new ones as she learns them.

Here's hoping that it works!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I know there's a lot of controversy about Cesar Millan... however, like Jolly above mentioned, there is definitely some merit to his philosophy. His basic technique, which he mentions over and over again is: exercise, discipline, then affection. In that order! I don't think you have to do exactly what Cesar says or do exactly what he is doing. I think a lot of people only remember the really negative/aggressive things that Cesar is doing with difficult dogs, but they forget (or don't realize) that he has a simple, basic, non-aggressive theory that anybody can use.

One suggestion (using Cesar's idea), is at the beginning of the day, take both dogs on a 30 minute, fast-paced walk. I don't know how often you walk your doggies, but I've seen a lot of dogs change their demeanor simply because they now have a job to do. I think it's definitely true that "the walk" creates a bond between the members involved in the walk. I don't know how well your dogs walk, but if you can also train them to heel and walk beside you, you exhibit being the leader and get some energy drained out of them so that they are more easily trainable.

A tired dog is less likely to put up a fight is my main point... so after your doggy is all pooped out, then you can work on disciplining your dog if she growls at you... then you can work on obedience training... A tired dog is also less likely to cause fights with other dogs (for your current pooch). I think walking both dogs together can also help stabilize or create a bond between both dogs as well.

I think implementing rules like DVMorBUST suggested is a great idea and should definitely be incorporated into the training of your new dog. A long tiring walk/run will only make things more successful in my opinion. It provides a job, releases pent up energy, and creates a bond between the walkers.

GOOD LUCK!! :luck:
 
My dog also displayed a dramatic personality change when I brought him home from the shelter. He wasn't listed to go with an only dog family, but within a day of bringing him home, he was aggressive towards other dogs EXCEPT (thank goodness) my other dog. We've been working on it steadily on walks, but he still can't get within 3 feet of another dog without barking his head off and lunging. (This is made all the more hilarious since he weighs 11 lbs.) If I catch him at the beginning of the behavior, I can curb it. When he see another dog, I immediately begin saying in a low, firm voice "Quiet!" It usually works. We're also working on getting him around my best friend's dog.

He can also be really aggressive about his toys. (He LOVES the squeakies.) And will jump and growl on my other dog to take them away. I immediately take the toy from him and put him in time out and ignore him. Since he craves affection, this usually works. I also taught him to sit to get the toy he wants. This keeps him from jumping up and begging.

As far as your situation, I would remove all the possession (toys and such) from the communal area. Make a safe place for your original dog to have toys. (Such as a gated off kitchen or bathroom.) When you put your first dog in there to play, work on obedience with your new dog. Show him/her that good behavior is what gets toys and meals. Get a special toy for your new dog for these training sessions. Start with sitting and drop it. Get your dog to sit, give it the toy, let it play for a minute, then say drop it and bring out a small treat to get it to drop the toy. When the toy is dropped, praise. Then pick up the toy and toss it. This way it turns giving you the toy into a fun game of fetch. My shelter dog had NO obedience training when I got him and this worked for me. It's not scientific, and I'm FAR from a behavior expert, so this is all anecdotal. My dog is also far from the brightest dog but he learned to sit for meals, treats and toys, and he learned "drop it," which is good for all kinds of strange things they get into.
 
disclaimer- I'm half drunk.

Not that that's out of the way-

I've seen lots of dogs that are quiet like you wouldn't believe when they first come into rescue. For 6 or 8 months, even, then they get comfortable, and they go crazy. Either it's them finally reacting, or it's the way they always were, and they're just comfortable to act out. (examples- the dog who wouldn't look at people was suddenly a total attention *****. the dog who wouldn't come in the house was suddenly everywhere she shouldn't be.)

I've also seen dogs that were fine in their first foster home, then acted out the second you drop them in a forever home, or a new foster place. Usually happens when they were fostered long enough to get comfy. I think they just get insecure, and want to keep what they've got. food and toys are easy things to latch onto, so they protect them with their evil sharp demon teeth.

It doesn't make you a bad doggy mommy. It just means your dog is being bad. Obedience training might help. And some one on one cuddle/ total attention time. Just be careful- my mother tried the "you get a treat/ attention when you sit" thing with one dog, and he turned it around to "I sit and you feed/ pet me at my order".

Or else he knows you got in, and is misbehaving like he thinks he's supposed to at the vet. You know, to help you "practice".

Ok, back to drinking

-j.
 
So, because he uses an outdated, archaic philosophy, it automatically means it's not effective or it's bad? Have you ever even watched the show or been exposed to this type of training to see how effective it really is? I think the main reason why his method is so effective is due to the fact that dogs are indeed pack animals. Plus, he utilizes many of the characteristics you mentioned: discipline, consistency, strategy, utilizing a positive-feedback approach... I'm curious as to why you think his method is "crap" while everything his philosophy teaches is very humane, effective, and a "back to basics" strategy that a dog actually understands!

I have watched his show--in horror! Cesar talks a good game, but if you really watch the show you'll see that he really isn't as effective as he likes to say he is. The one episode in particular that had me DISGUSTEd was when he forced a Shih-Tzu that was afraid of scissors and grooming into being groomed. Oh yeah, the dog was still frightened to death and it tore into Cesar's hands on multiple occasions. I don't blame the owner for crying during the whole scenario. It was uncomfortable to watch--and, IMO, a real disservice to dogs and their owners watching at home and looking for advice.

Here's where I am getting at: The old philosophy and understanding of dogs and their behavior was based on misunderstanding of the complex social dynamic of wolf packs. The pack's hierarchy was simplistically described as being one of "alpha" and "beta" dominance and submission roles and relationships. People logically then assumed that dogs would be very similar. Thus the practice of forcing one's dog into submission as a means of training was born.

Unfortunately, the foundation upon which this methodology lies (the analysis of wolf pack dynamics) was false and, in the last few decades, a lot more about the way animals and dogs respond to different training methods has been studied.

Someone mentioned that you want your dog to see you as a leader and as a figure of authority. WONDERFUL! You do. But let me ask you this: Who do you (not your dog, but you, personally) tend to naturally and willingly defer to:

Someone who uses fear and force to motivate you to do something?

Or someone who displays leadership qualities: providing all that is good, helping you to avoid what is bad/dangerous/unpleasant, is consistent, compassionate and kind.

When you REALLY work with the animal based upon its motivations and drives, you can earn your dog's respect naturally. When, however, you force dogs to do things "because I said so", you might create a dog that obeys much of the time, but it is an anxious and resentful one. It is much less likely to obey when you (the only reason it obeys) are not present and also allows for the possibility of revolt/rebellion, if the dog thinks it has a chance of turning the tide.

Rule by dictatorship or rule by trust? Seriously, that IS the choice you make when you do it Cesar's way v. a positive feedback way.

Here's just one explanation of how methods differ and WHY that difference is significant. I don't know this trainer, (I live in the NW and would have two trainer recommendations, esp. for aggressive/defensive dogs) but from this site, I can tell that this trainer aligns much more with my philosophy on how to motivate dogs to blend better into a household:

(From a site about Ian Dunbar's training)

The trouble with Cesar

While television star Cesar Millan (who turned down our request for an interview) is credited with placing dog training on the public radar, the field's most respected behaviorists and trainers are concerned that many of Millan's ideas are unfounded. As for his methods? A few are downright harmful.


Putting your dog in his place

Cesar's way: Dogs assume either a dominant or submissive role in their "pack." If he doesn't get off the couch when you ask him to, it's your dog's way of telling you that he's dominant and you're submissive.
Why he's way off: The notion of a rigid pack hierarchy with fixed roles between humans and dogs is largely a myth. Dogs are most likely to do what we humans ask when they clearly understand what we want - not as a sign of submission. Patricia McConnell explains: "So many issues - sitting on the couch, coming when called - have nothing to do with social status, any more than how you do on a math exam reflects your social status. A dog who doesn't sit when you ask him to sit - in most cases - simply doesn't understand what you want."
The truth: In groups of canines, roles among individual members are both fluid and give-and-take.


Treating fear with fear

Cesar's way: You can "cure" a dog's fear by overwhelming him with the very stimulus that terrifies him.
Why he's way off: Imagine treating a human's acrophobia by dangling him over the edge of a skyscraper. This technique, called "flooding," actually leads to further psychological trauma in the form of learned helplessness: An animal learns that resistance is futile - his spirit is broken and he ceases to assert himself.
Trish King, Director of the Animal Behavior & Training Department at the Marin Humane Society observes: "In some of his shows, Cesar tells the owner how 'calm and submissive' a dog is, when to me, the dog looks shut down and fearful."
The truth: It may take weeks or months for your dog to truly overcome deep-rooted fear - and setbacks along the way are to be expected.


Snapping the leash or rolling the dog

Cesar's way: Physical corrections - such as snapping a dog's leash or forcefully rolling him onto his back - are an effective way to garner good behavior.
Why he's way off: Physical corrections add to your dog's stress rather than offer instructive information. You may temporarily stun your dog into obedience in the short run, but in the long run, the use of physical force increases aggression and, ultimately, your behavioral problems.
"You can lead with force, like Saddam Hussein, or you can be a benevolent leader to your dog by choosing a style more like Gandhi's," says Tamar Geller, trainer to Oprah Winfrey's dogs and author of The Loved Dog. "Your approach will determine the type of relationship you have - and whether your dog acts out of intimidation... or respect."
The truth: Rewarding for the behavior you do want, as opposed to punishing for any number of behaviors you don't want, clearly communicates to your dog what's expected and is far more likely to generate confident, appropriate behavior.

One thing I will add is the even within the community of positive feedback training there is some disagreement. Much of that lies in what the "reward" tends to be for the dog. Some people rely on food/praise exclusively while others are much less inclined to use food, but to identify the other instinctual drives/motivations of the dog they are working with: prey drive (which can be displaced to a ball/toy, curiosity/desire to move or go somewhere (particularly useful for leash training)...


The above trainer might be a food guy or clicker guy... I'm not sure... but he's in agreement with a lot of other talented folks that Cesar Millan isn't much but a showman with a really outdated and primitive understanding of dogs.

Here's some more, from this website: http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

Please note the quote below from one of the Professors at TUFTS UNIVERSITY (I've bolded it):

Talk Softly and Carry a Carrot or a Big Stick?
By Jean Donaldson, Director of The SF/SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers

Dog training is a divided profession. We are not like plumbers, orthodontists or termite exterminators who, if you put six in a room, will pretty much agree on how to do their jobs. Dog training camps are more like Republicans and Democrats, all agreeing that the job needs to be done but wildly differing on how to do it.

The big watershed in dog training is whether or not to include pain and fear as means of motivation. In the last twenty years the pendulum swing has been toward methods that use minimal pain, fear or intimidation - or none at all.

The force-free movement has been partly driven by improved communication from the top. Applied behaviorists, those with advanced degrees in behavior, and veterinary behaviorists, veterinarians who have completed residencies specializing in behavior problems are in greater abundance than in previous decades, and there is much more collaboration between these fields and trainers on the front lines. These two professions are quite unified on the point that the use of physical confrontation and pain is unnecessary, often detrimental and, importantly, unsafe.

On a more grassroots level, trainers have found more benign and sophisticated tools by boning up on applied behavior science themselves. Seminal books like marine mammal trainer Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog made the case that training and behavior modification can be achieved without any force whatsoever.

But dog training is currently an unregulated profession: there are no laws governing practices. Prosecutions under general anti-cruelty statutes are occasionally successful but greatly hampered by the absence of legal standards pertaining specifically to training practices. Provided it's in the name of training, someone with no formal education or certification can strangle your dog quite literally to death and conceivably get off scot-free.

It's not a complete wilderness: three sets of dog training guidelines exist, one in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) Mission Statement, one published by the Delta Society and one by the American Humane Association (AHA). All state that less invasive (i.e. without pain or force) techniques must be competently tried and exhausted before more invasive techniques attempted. Such guidelines are not yet mandatory but they're a start.

And so the current professional climate is one laden with some remaining fierce debate. There's an ever-expanding group of trainers that train force-free (ad. literature will be some variation on the theme of "dog-friendly" or "pain-free"), trainers that still train primarily with force (ad literature: "no-nonsense" or "common sense") and trainers that employ liberal use of both force and rewards (ad literature: "balanced" or "eclectic"). From a consumer's standpoint, the choice in methods is wide.
You can hire a professional to train your dog pretty much any way that suits your fancy and it's all legal.

The force-free movement gains momentum every year and a sure sign of this is that many trainers in the other camps resort to murkier and murkier euphemisms to disguise their more violent practices and retain their market share. Stressed dogs aren't "shut down," they're "calm." It's not strangling, it's "leading." As a committed devotee of the "dog-friendly" camp, I am therefore, along with my colleagues here at The San Francisco SPCA, somewhat agog at the stunning success of "The Dog Whisperer". This is pretty ferocious stuff by anybody's standards. The National Geographic Channel even runs a disclaimer banner at the bottom of the screen admonishing people to "not try this at home," a warning notably absent on home improvement shows or "Nanny 911". Many have suggested that the cloaking of corporal punishments and hazing in mystical language, promise of instant results, high octane telegenicity of Cesar Milan and lucky connections with Los Angeles celebrity clients are sufficient explanation for the Dog Whisperer phenomenon. The one with the best buzz words wins. But I don't know.

Janis Bradley, my colleague here at The SPCA, sagely points out that the positive reinforcement trend has become a big enough juggernaut to warrant a backlash and Milan represents exactly that. Like the frazzled Los Angelinos in the film "Crash" (which, notably, took Best Picture honors at The Academy Awards last year), people are fed up with having to be politically correct in a chronically frustrating and disconnected world. Couldn't we just "get real" and stop being kind and tolerant all the time?

And here we positive-reinforcement oriented dog trainers are now telling everyone they have to be nice and politically correct to the dog? Well, yes.
(Jean Donaldson's article was first published in The Woofer Times, September 2006)

READ MORE ABOUT CESAR MILLAN:
American Humane Association - "Dog Whisperer Training Approach More Harmful Than Helpful"
New York Times/Mark Derr - "Pack of Lies"
Esquire Magazine/Curtis Pesmen - "Misguided Expert of the Year"
Andrew Luescher, DVM, Veterinary Behaviorist, Animal Behavior Clinic, Purdue University
Review of "Cesar's Way" from Pat Miller of The Bark Magazine
Paul Owens, the Original Dog Whisperer - "A Bone To Pick?"
Michael Linder - "Dog Owners Want To Bury Cesar?"
USA TODAY - "Dog Whisperer" Cesar Millan Sued by TV Producer
Newsday - "A 'Tough Love' Dog Whisperer Spurs Some Yelps"
DailyPress.com/Steve Dale - "Dog Whisperer Makes a Lousy Role-Model For Dog Owners"
The Anti-Cesar Millan -- Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host?
IAABC Concerns Regarding Child Safety on National Geographic's Dog Whisperer Show
NEW! From the BLOG of RICHARD BELZER: "FIRST DO NO HARM"

QUOTES FROM EXPERTS:
World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine


“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"


Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”

"I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated... I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
Steve Dale Steve Dale is the author of the twice weekly syndicated newspaper column “My Pet World” (Tribune Media Services). He’s also the host of syndicated radio programs Steve Dale’s Pet World, The Pet Minute with Steve Dale; and Pet Central, at WGN Radio, Chicago. Steve is a contributing editor at USA Weekend, special correspondent/columnist Dog World and editor-in-chief of PawPrints (a newsletter for veterinarians). His books include “American Zoos” and “DogGone Chicago.” Steve’s appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show; National Geographic Explorer; Pets Part of the Family on PBS; several Animal Planet Shows; Fox News Channel, and Balance TV (Canada). He was a regular on WGN-TV Chicago. Touted as reaching more pet owners than any other pet journalist, Steve’s a frequent guest expert on radio shows all over America and Canada; he’s been quoted in dozens of newspaper and magazine stories, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Redbook. He's certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.
 
Obviously this is a controversial subject - dog training in general tends to be an art rather than a science. This is my .02 - While his methods may not be right for everyone or every dog, I've watched the show and read his book and do NOT find his training methods abusive or inhumane. If you think they are, then you have not witnessed true abuse.

For wi girl, don't give up!:) I'm sure that you will be able to work out the issues. Like another poster said, you are probably more qualified than most other adopters to find and implement the necessary resources to help your new dog successfully integrate into your home. Good Luck :luck:
 
Using Cesar's methods, I have:

cured a dog of SEVERE thunderstorm phobia in ONE night

Convinced a dog so neurotic he was on SSRIs to become balanced and live peacefully with my other dogs (and this dog was MADE neurotic by a trainer at PetSmart using "regular" training).

Taught my dogs to respect my cats, ignore my guinea pigs, and eat together

Taught an unruly dog how to walk properly on a leash, have his nails trimmed, and his hair brushed

Established order and balance in my animal pack--and not one of them is fearful, anxious, or aggressive. They are relaxed and happy (or as relaxed as a terrier can be).

ALL without one ounce of punishment or abuse. His methods are NOT about abuse, but rather about the energy and mindset of the humans in the household. That is really all there is to it, and it really does work.
 
DVMorBust said:
His methods are DANGEROUS if you don't know what you're doing. Sure, HE might get success - and he's a good showman so he can really sell the methods. The thing that FREAKS me out about him are people who watch his show and think "Oh, I can do that!" and put themselves in dangerous situations without knowing the full theory/method/how to deal when it goes wrong.

There are better, safer (for you) ways to go about solving problems.

Clearly, you should consult a professional (i.e. vet, behaviorist, dog trainer, etc.) before implementing any kind of obedience strategy. In fact, there's a disclaimer at the beginning of Cesar's show and in the book! ;) Watching and/or reading about his methods are good to get an idea of how it all works, but unless you really know what you're doing, it can for sure be dangerous (to you and your dog!).

------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Cesar's methods - well, obviously everyone isn't going to agree with them, just like anything else. Also like with anything else, some people will find that utilizing x works best for them while utilizing y works best for some other people, etc. etc. However, I'm still not convinced how his methods are "crap" when they are effective and definitely not inhumane. I feel like the negative examples presented were very skewed. There is a big difference between fear and discipline, as is there a big difference between using force and being stern. I've witnessed Cesar's methods as being disciplinary and stern, yet rewarding and positive at the same time.

In the end, there are, of course, many different ways to train a dog that are positive and humane. I'm sure wi girl will find a method that best suits her dog's needs. Best of luck on your consultations of trainers, behaviorists, and vets, wi girl! Let us know about the method you use! :luck:

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the one thing I disagree with that Cesar utilizes is the choke chain. I just don't think they're necessary.
 
Last edited:
First of all, I don't think you should give the dog up.


I think you should give the dog up. :(

Before the possessive agression turns into a fight with your other dog or a bite to another person, or yourself again. If you are just starting vet school, I am sorry to say that you will unlikely have the time to do the behavioral training this dog needs.
 
Chris, that was really my fear. I'm not sure if I'll have the time to do much modification. Its very difficult, because she can be such a sweetie the rest of the time ...

I'm so on the fence about this. I signed up for obedience classes, but .... what if they don't work? Do I really have the time in vet school to deal with this? So many questions to ask myself.
 
Chris, that was really my fear. I'm not sure if I'll have the time to do much modification. Its very difficult, because she can be such a sweetie the rest of the time ...

I'm so on the fence about this. I signed up for obedience classes, but .... what if they don't work? Do I really have the time in vet school to deal with this? So many questions to ask myself.

You could try and see how far you get prior to starting school.
Ultimately these are your two extremes:
1. IF you try and don't succeed, you may end up dealing with the physical/emotional/financial consequences should another bite to a person or fight with your other dog occurs.

2. IF you give up the dog you may feel like you are somehow a failure.

Personally I believe it takes a strong person to realize that they are better off letting go, just as it takes a strong person to get through behavior modification.:oops:

Talk to your local veterinarian and see what he/she thinks as I obviously have not even laid eyes in your dog.
 
I think that's what I'll do ... try to see how far I get. I have a vet appt in a few weeks for a re-check, so I'll talk to her then about all of this. Also, the obedience classes that I signed her up for are with a behavior specialist (reccommended by the rescue, the humane society and many others) and so she'll kinda be able to see what's going on before I have an actual consultation.

I've spoken with my family, and the time/effort/$$ investment at this time isn't terrible. Its the worry of the *$%* hitting the fan come September and school starts. I know that I can't let this dictate my future, so if its not working then, I'll have to walk away (easier said than done though!)

All that being said, I'll keep everyone updated.
 
nevermind, I want no part of the caesar argument. good luck wi girl, it's clear you have everyone's best interests at heart and will certainly make the right decision with that being the case.
 
Last edited:
wi girl, I feel your pain. I adopted a second cat back in October and did a trial period of fostering him to see how he and my first (admittedly high strung, tempermental, tortie personality) cat got along. At first he was the most chill, most laid back guy ever. We did about a week of gradual introduction, taking everything very slow. My girl was nervous and hissed a lot, but he just watched her from a far and she started to settle down a little. Then, a few days after they'd been allowed in the same spaces together full time, he must have started to get really comfortable. He began chasing her, which she hates. Then he started jumping on her, to which she would respond by howling like a wild cat! (Well, he is 21lbs and she's 9!) It's gotten a little better (some positive and negative reinforcements are helping, I think). And when he's not jumping on her, they get along fine. They'll walk by each other, sniff each other, sit near-ish. So she doesn't hate him, she just hates the jumping. (If anyone has any bright ideas on how to make him not do this, I'm all ears...I've tried upping the amount of stimulation/exercise he gets otherwise, and that seems to be helping.)

But anyway, my point is that for a while I was seriously considering giving him back and saying that it wasn't going to work out. I felt so, so horrible about it. I knew my first obligation was to my first cat, but I just couldn't get over two things. 1) I wanted to be a vet and giving up pets isn't something we're "supposed to" do. And, 2) I got some negative feedback from the lady who ran the rescue I got him from. Not to knock rescues, they're fabulous. But in this case I really felt like I was getting a guilt trip about my concerns that he wasn't a good match for my girl. Anyway, so I kept him. Sometimes I still have concerns.

As a kind of unrelated aside, I think we may have just had a pretty big breakthrough in the last week. I agreed to watch one of my good friends' cats. This cat had previously lived with my little girl in harmony, and my second cat was the friendly one, so I thought it'd be fine. Turns out my friend's tiny, ancient cat scared the bejesus out of my big behemoth. So now both of my cats have been hanging out in the upstairs room together for the majority of the past week. I could be way over interpreting, but I think this experience is helping them bond a bit. And my big guy hasn't jumped on my first kitty since the other cat arrive. Maybe he's just too tense and will go back to it when she leave, who knows.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling. wi girl, I just wanted to let you know that I feel your pain! And if it helps, you're NOT a failure if you need to return the second dog to the rescue. Don't let anyone pressure you into a decision that could ultimately be wrong for all creatures involved. Good luck with your very hard decision.
 
VAgirl -- It's nice to see that others have gone through similar situations, and have thought those same failure type thoughts. Your support and story really means a lot. Thank you for sharing.
 
I would also suggest giving the dog up. Behavioral issues take a great deal of time, which is something you probably won't have a lot of. I don't think you should be ashamed to give up a dog. You tried to rescue a dog, and realized the dog is not a good fit for your family, this is in NO way your fault!

If you give the dog back to the rescue it can either go into a home where it doesn't have these issues (probably unlikely) or can hopefully go into a home where the owner is able to address the dogs needs. I'm actually really surprised that so many people are against giving the dog up - a dog that bites is not only a legal liability for you, but if your dogs don't get along could be a health hazard for your dog.

I have trained dogs before, and I am a firm believer that most training issues are the fault of the trainer rather than the dog, but this is not the case with dog aggression. Hopefully, you can return the dog and get a better fit for your family.
 
I actually have spoken about it with many of the vets at the clinic I work at, and they also suggest giving the dog back, for those exact reasons. Its not fair to either of the dogs to not be able to spend the time to address these issues.

Obviously I've really been torn over this, but I think the best descion is to give Leah back to the rescue group.

Thank you everyone for your support.


later, addition: So, I get what you meant vagirl about the guilt trip! wow -- and all because they never saw these behaviors, and kinda think I'm making them up!
 
Last edited:
later, addition: So, I get what you meant vagirl about the guilt trip! wow -- and all because they never saw these behaviors, and kinda think I'm making them up!

Hang in there, wi girl. It absolutely sucks. But you know you're doing the right thing. And try to think about it this way...you have the same goal as the people at the rescue--to get Leah placed in the right situation. And you know that yours isn't the right situation. So stick to your guns. It will probably take time, but in the end I think you'll know you did the right thing.

Hang in there!
 
Why on earth would you lie about the dog's behaviors? I mean, really.

I had to re-adopt a dog once with a similarly "uncurable" behavoral problem - submissive urination. Crazy, uncontrollable, hair-triggered urination. I didn't see it before I took her home or I would have thought twice. I didn't have the option if returning her, so I worked hard to find her another home - an outdoor one at that. I hope she's doing well as I've lost contact with the adopters, but I'm sure she's happier there with other dogs and more contstant atention.

The ladies at work where I got her gave me a bit of grief when they saw the adoption flyers, but they weren't the ones having to clean up 20 pee spots a day... or worse yet, she'd pee on her tail and then wag her tail... SICK. I knew it was too much for me, so I did what I had to do. Likewise, you should do what you know is best and that's that.
 
I think you should give the dog up. :(

Before the possessive agression turns into a fight with your other dog or a bite to another person, or yourself again. If you are just starting vet school, I am sorry to say that you will unlikely have the time to do the behavioral training this dog needs.

THANK YOU!!! I was waiting for someone to say this. I agree 110%. GIVE THE DOG UP!! If this dog is going to change (no matter what method is used) it is going to need A LOT of your time and patience, not to mention your emotional energy. You are going to need this energy for vet school.

It DOES NOT mean you are a bad person or a bad animal handler. It DOES mean that you see the big picture and are putting your priorities in prospective.

If the foster family had such good luck with her then send her back there.
 
Top