help: usc vs uci!

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jasonmip

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hey guys

need your input asap in comparing usc and uci.

both seem like good schools, but i'm concerned about:
cost,
reputation (only as it concerns future opportunities, choice of residency programs and whatnot),
quality of life,
clinical experience,
all that good stuff.

:confused:

any help/advice is greatly appreciated!!
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if you're a california resident go to UCI. End of story. NO EDUCATION is worth an extra 20K+/year. Plus, irvine is a much nicer area than in LA where you'll be working.
 
thanks for the input...

so in your opinion, usc and uci students are equally considered for residency programs?
 
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hey jasonmip,
Im pretty sure I know who you are (i met you at the UCI revisit weekend I think)...if it is you, did you get into USC off the waitlist??
anyways, i'm gonna have to disagree with rcmonkeypie. Of course, I'm biased because I chose USC over UCI. It was for a bunch of reasons and I know there are people on SDN who think I am stupid for it but, in the end, I went with my heart.

Also, I'm not a fan of Orange County, "nice" or not.
 
with the money you save by going to uci, you can live in newport beach...
 
Originally posted by t733nu5
with the money you save by going to uci, you can live in newport beach...
Click to expand...
Newport has some fine females, and Irvine is only about 45 minutes from L.A. Save your cheddar, go to uci. After 4 years the difference will be about $80-100k, shiz dats about a new bmw 7 series or MBZ s class or down on a house.
 
the clinical experience you will gain at county will be priceless. so, i guess that takes care of the money aspect. is there really any other?
 
Well I say go to UCI.

I'm waitlisted at USC but I swear I'm completely impartial!
 
Well I say go to UCI.

I'm waitlisted at USC but I swear I'm completely impartial!
 
Here is my biased but fact filled response to the questions.

cost
Irvine costs about 15-16K a year (depending on how much the increase due to the budget crisis will be, but there will be an increase) USC is 36K a year. 80K over 4 years, but the cost of living is much less at USC then living in or near Irvine, so you will prolly end up payaing abouy 60-70K more for going to USC over Irvine.

reputation (only as it concerns future opportunities, choice of residency programs and whatnot),

USC definately has a better reputation than UCI in all places not starting with the name orange. So if you want to end up in the OC, by all means go to UCI. But USC is a nationnally know program. UCI isn't. USC does stuff like making artificial retinal implants so blind people can see. And if you have seen the two hospitals, UCI and County, you will see that you get a lot better training at county (just by looking around) and residency directors know this.

quality of life

Depends on what kind of life you are looking for. If you like living in a big city with a wide variety of stuff and entertainment, you would like USC a lot more. People always says USC is in a terrible area, but I don't know a single person who lives next to the hospital. Most people live in nice areas such as Monterrey Hills, Pasadena, and South Pasadena, which are all just 15 minutes from the best parts of Los Angeles.
If you like a laid back, sunny, surfing type of place, than UCI is a lot better.

clinical experience

By far, County has the best clinical experience in this state. You get to see and do so much more, due to many different facts that I won't get into here. But as a student you get to do procedures that at other schools residents are the only ones who can do.

all that good stuff.

I'll add in the curriculum here. Most people don't think about that when choosing a school, but it makes a huge difference. At one end of the spectrum, you have UCSD which has class 32-36 hours a week teaching you every little usefull and useless fact there is. Then you have USC, which 3 years ago redid their curriculum based entirely on what the students wanted. They cut out everything they thought wasn't relevant nowadays, made it pass/fail (which cuts out a TON of stress), and we ended up with 20 hours of class time a week, and 4-7 hours a week in the hospital interviewing patients. I donno how the curriculum at UCI is, but I do know it is Honors/Pass/Fail, which makes it so that even if you are going to get about 85% on the test, you have to study harder so you can try to get 95% and honors.

so in your opinion, usc and uci students are equally considered for residency programs

Nope. USC has a better reputation, as said above. Also consider that wherever you go, you have a home court advantage to getting that schools residency positions. last year 35% of all USC students went into USC residency programs. So wherever you end up going, there is a extremely good chance you will end up staying there.
 
I don't know where you are getting your information that USC has a better reputation than UCI. If you want to go out of state, any California school that is not UCSF, UCLA, or Stanford is considered equal (that is my information from East Coast residency directors.) UCSD is the best of the rest, but losing ground.

Tons of people in my class turned down USC (and many other good schools like Hopkins and UCSF) to go to UCI.
 
if you want to go to the most chill and relaxed UC medical school, then go to uci. As far as the whole reputation meputation thing, you gotta realize that its the man that makes the clothing and not the otherway around. i hope that makes sense. i am biased of course, i turned down two top 20 medical schools when i got my acceptance to uci and i personally know three others that turned down top 10 medical schools to go to uci. w/ that said. you just gotta go with your gut feeling. if you know that in the back of your mind you would always regret turning down usc to go to uci, no matter what anybody else trys to argue, then fudge it... go to usc. you'll end up performing better in med school and get into a kickass residency of your choice. Either way you got two really good choices. good luck.
 
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Originally posted by scully
I don't know where you are getting your information that USC has a better reputation than UCI. If you want to go out of state, any California school that is not UCSF, UCLA, or Stanford is considered equal (that is my information from East Coast residency directors.) UCSD is the best of the rest, but losing ground.
agree 100%. Also noted you didn't say UCI has a better repuation than USC.

Tons of people in my class turned down USC (and many other good schools like Hopkins and UCSF) to go to UCI.

As did tons of my class turning down UCI for USC. Whatcha is the only person I knew last year who was deciding between the schools that choose UCI over USC. But I am quite curous how many people UCI has that turned down Hopkins or UCSF, as claimed. I know one person who turned down UCSF in my class, but that was b/c her boyfriend was in Los Angeles.


w/ that said. you just gotta go with your gut feeling. if you know that in the back of your mind you would always regret turning down usc to go to uci, no matter what anybody else trys to argue, then fudge it... go to usc
Best advice out there. The same goes for the converse.
 
I chose USC over UCI, for clinical reasons. I think you do get a better clinical experience at SC, but you do have to deal with a lot more stress, bad nurses and office staff, and deans that give you little guidance. Granted, I'm the last bastian of the 'old' curriculum so they don't give a rat's ass about us. (Although the more I learn about the 'new and improved' curriculum, the more I thank the higher powers for not bequeathing that crap onto me :)). No offense, Jalby :p I tend to have a low threshold for foo-foo BS.

First and foremost, if you are in debt from undergrad, do UCI. It is not worth your effort to go in $130k more. They've been very strong in allopathic teaching.

Having said that, if money is available, or if you're willing to pay $130k, then USC gets a better vote, in my opinion. You'll become a more independent, albeit more jaded medical student.

-Todd MSIV USC
 
Originally posted by Tazmaniac
Granted, I'm the last bastian of the 'old' curriculum so they don't give a rat's ass about us. (Although the more I learn about the 'new and improved' curriculum, the more I thank the higher powers for not bequeathing that crap onto me :)). No offense, Jalby :p I tend to have a low threshold for foo-foo BS.

Depends on who you hear it from. The class before us got so screwed, but they fixed almost everything for our class (first year at least) They hate us for that.

And it's about 60-80K nowadays, not 130K as it might have been for you. (thank Gray Davis and the econmy for that one)
 
If you can look past the money issue USC is by far more appealing than UCI for reasons already mentioned by Jalby. There is no equal to the amount of clinical experience you recieve from your first week in school, not to mention the optional ER/Surgery shadowing that can be done to your hearts content. I would venture to say not many schools give first years a chance to scrub in on a trauma case and actually teach you/let you do stuff like close incisions, etc..

So i'm biased, but the reasons i chose USC actually panned out during the year and wasnt just part of the sales pitch. The new curriculum is awesome and is getting better every year.

USC has a better rep and will help you get certain residencies, this is important if you plan on staying in los angeles. Our grads are known for having more clinical experience than most others.

As far as type of atmosphere, i cant say for sure about your own class but ours is very laid back. Everyones cool and thats another reason i chose USC, no one took themselves to seriously.

Go with your gut but if money is your only deciding factor, interest rates are lower than ever and unless you purposefully decide to do primary care in Timbuktu for the rest of your life you'll be okay. Even if you took loans for every last penny, one day (5-7 years) you will make that in a year.
 
Originally posted by Jalby
But I am quite curious how many people UCI has that turned down Hopkins or UCSF, as claimed. I know one person who turned down UCSF in my class, but that was b/c her boyfriend was in Los Angeles.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to seem like I'm always dissing jalby, but I'm sick and tired of his bias towards USC. Why does he always makes claims like USC is world renown? It's not. I know residents who picked community hospitals over USC hospitals. Contrary to what most USC professors and students claim, county hospitals are not the best at training med students and residents. Most students stay away from county hospitals because although you do see more pathological cases, you also deal with more scutwork, poor treatment, and administrative problems (patients with no insurance). County hospitals are very unattractive for residency. That's the same reason why UCLA-Harbor is less attractive and experiencing more problems than UCLAMC or UCLA-Cedars Sinai. As for med school, the same county hospital experience occurs during 3rd and 4th year at USC. Besides, your clinical experience in those 2 short years will play a small role in getting you the residency of your choice, and make you a good doctor for the rest of your life.

I am aware of 2 off the top of my head in one class who turned down UCSF and hopkins for uci for location. There are some at USC too. Does that prove anything?

In conclusion, I didnt mean to bag on USC. I am just making the same argument over and over again. During high school and undergrad, everyone thinks matriculating at the best undergrad institution is important. Now we are in med school, we know better. It makes no difference whether someone went to Columbia or UCDavis; it's all about gpa and mcat score (and personal experiences) when applying to med school. It's the exact same for med school; when you are applying for residency, if you have a boards score of 260, junior AOA, and a fantastic interview, who cares what med school you went to, you're in.

I give you the same advice you would give a high school student for undergrad, go to the school you'd feel best and study the most, and you will get whatever you want. Choosing USC/UCI for med school is the same as choosing where to go for undergrad. Just keep that in mind.
 
Hey Profunda. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. I actually agree with most of what you said. I'd tell the OP to go where he feels best first and foremost.
USC is not world renouned, but it is more than renouned than UCI. Weather that is worth the Extra $$$, some people fall on both sides of the issue.

You said that County residency positions are not as in demand as other positions. You are right in some ways. hewith the patients themselves adn their social problems, county programs arn't as fun and rewarding as other programs. But the types of surgeries and stuff you get to do at County programs is a ton better than other programs.

But that has nothing to do with medical student training. There isn't more scutwork for the students, but what happens is there are more patients than other places, so the students have more responsibilities. At USC internal medicine, a student is responsible for diagnosing and reporting on 5 patients at one time, with a resident looking over their sholdier, but the student doing all the work. This is very different than other schools such as UCI, where the patients actually care a lot more about having a real doctor helping them. And as for uninsured patients, that doesn't affect students training in any way shape or form.


"I am aware of 2 off the top of my head in one class who turned down UCSF and hopkins for uci for location. There are some at USC too. Does that prove anything?"

Not a thing. But a poster above stated that for UCI, so I provided some examples for USC. Wyldstyle here on SDN turned down UCI for SLU. So there are some extreme abberations one way for another. Doesn't prove anything (I def don't agree with his position)

"It's the exact same for med school; when you are applying for residency, if you have a boards score of 260, junior AOA, and a fantastic interview, who cares what med school you went to, you're in. " I agree 100%. But not everybody get's this stuff, so the decision actually will make a difference, if nothing else deciding where you end up doing residency (due to home school advantage)



All that being said, I do like both schools and you can't go wrong with either. I'm sure the OP already decided by now which way he is going.
 
County residencies may not be attractive, lush, have high class Pts, or be easy, which is why many people choose community hospitals over counties, but the training may be superior (as in the case at USC+LAC).At USC there is a lot of path to see and an innumerable amount of Pts to work with, which is great for training. The point of a residency is to allow one to learn to do things and make mistakes, and then someone else taking either credit or blame for it. Once your done with residency unless your in a fellowship you are on your own and their is no attending to turn to when things start to go downhill.

This is the advantage at USC, out of med school we are better prepared for residencies (even if not respected as), and after residencies we will be more confident and our Pts better off because we have had more than enough training. This may be more important for certain specialties like surgery and EM, where you will get the best and most training in the country. Just because a hospital or school for that matter has a fancy name doesnt always mean its the best for training, these reps were made a long time ago and are just extended to many without actual proof of their supposed superiority.

Go to the Freida web site to view info about residencies and training program stats across the US.
 
Hey Profunda, being as you once called UCI the "County of Orange county" I'm curious where you get your information considering how it says your home is in Venezuela.
 
I also find it interesting to read these comments from students who haven't gotten to clinical rotations yet. Hell, I just started M3 at USC and I don't feel anywhere near qualified to comment on our clinical training. To just regurgitate the party line about how wonderful it is to train at County because of all the interesting pathology and independence on the wards and such without being able to provide the flip side of it isn't a fair representation of how things are. Almost all the stuff that Jalby and zbarnes have said is standard admissions tour propaganda used to lure prospective students into the program. I've yet to see the study that shows that the superiority of Keck students, so who knows how much of it is myth and how much of it is truth.
 
For all the complaining you have done about USC, it sure has seemed to train you well.

Originally posted by Jaded Soul
Looks like the NBME isn't as behind as they said. Took the test on June 14. Received my score July 12.

Score: 255/99 (waaaaay better than I expected...nearly fainted after opening the score report)

Review books: FA, BRS Path, BRS Physio, Clinical Micro Made Ridiculously Simple, Road Map Gross, Road Map Pharm, HY Neuro, HY Behavioral Sci, UCVs.

Question sources: all of Qbank, all of IV Qbank, NBME released items, Kaplan in-center exam, some of ExamMaster online, some of BSS.

Scores: Qbank 67%, IV Qbank 75%, Kaplain In-Center 77%, Released Items 80%.

Does MCAT correlate? Not even close: 31S (9V-11P-11B)

School: Keck SOM of USC
Click to expand...
 
I'm from venezuela. That's not where I am currently or have been for awhile, but I am there sometimes. I know a lot about Californian med schools and residency because I inquire a lot of people about them, and I view posts on sdn specifically about them, because that's where I always want to be.

Assuming one is not AOA, 260 on boards, great interviwee, my point is to pick a school where you'd do best in, a school that makes you most happy. The happier you are, the better you will do, regardless of the reputation of the school. It is like undergrad all over again: name of school doesnt take you very far. And I'd also have to say, I dont believe either school has a better rep. To most people, medical or laymen people, they are about the same.

One thing I would like to disagree about your post: a med student or resident gets better training through automony. That is not my personal opinion, but these are the words in the streets. I was told patients are more comfortable and cooperative towards med students and residents when an attending professor is in the background supervising. Most attendings are not adamant about treating patients by themselves, but they allow med students to do the work, directing and teaching verbally. That's how a lot of (or some) med students/residents learn. Automony is not better for one's education, and that's why county hospitals are less attractive for residency, at least that's what residents tell me.

Originally posted by Jalby
Hey Profunda, being as you once called UCI the "County of Orange county" I'm curious where you get your information considering how it says your home is in Venezuela.
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Originally posted by profunda
I'm from venezuela. That's not where I am currently or have been for awhile, but I am there sometimes. I know a lot about Californian med schools and residency because I inquire a lot of people about them, and I view posts on sdn specifically about them, because that's where I always want to be.
Click to expand...

So wait. It sounds like you are not even in California or even been there. I'm shocked that you offer so much advice considering most of it you get from other people and SDN.
 
Originally posted by Jalby
For all the complaining you have done about USC, it sure has seemed to train you well.
Click to expand...

You are free to interpret it that way. I see it as doing well in spite of the problems with the curriculum. We'll see how effective the new curriculum was when all the scores are reported and we see what the average is.
 
Originally posted by Jaded Soul
You are free to interpret it that way. I see it as doing well in spite of the problems with the curriculum. We'll see how effective the new curriculum was when all the scores are reported and we see what the average is.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I think the admin actually gave up (in some ways) on your class due to some of the problems you guys had being the guinea pigs. I still bet you beat the year before's scores by at least 5 points, but it will prolly be my class before they get a real estimation on how much the classes have improved. (curric and admitting)
 
At least I ask around..various californian residents/fellows/ppl from different backgrounds with different goals. Just because I'm from/in california doesnt mean I know everything about everything. You think you know enough, but I dont think I know enough, yet that doesnt mean you know more than I.

All you do is try to make usc look better by spreading propaganda USC professors originally gave you. The statements I made about county hospitals can easily be found in general residency forum. Whether you believe I have been in california (northern and southern) most of my life or not, it is not my advice/opinion that I am offering, but relaying the opinions of others about county. SDN is a joke, and I would never totally believe what is stated here unless it's backed by real life doctors (so you should ask residents yourself too, and unless you talk to county residents I bet you will hear the same I'm telling you about county).

And yes josh, I've been in california; you were one of the ucla TAs in my 154 biochem lab course, with blond slightly long hair and about 6 foot tall working with another TA i believe his name was hazeem. it's very possible i'm currently attending a california med school. you'd be surprised the things I know about california.

Originally posted by Jalby
So wait. It sounds like you are not even in California or even been there. I'm shocked that you offer so much advice considering most of it you get from other people and SDN.
Click to expand...
 
I was just wondering...( I have no idea about UCI or USC- for the record)

I am interested in transferring to USC, and I was wondering why is it that they had 18 open seats for the MS2 class last year and 12 seats open this year?
That is by far the highest number of open seats for a medical school in the country? Is this because of attrition?

Please advise.
 
lol. That's pretty funny profunda. Yeah, if you took 154, you sure would know me.

As for the empty seats, I'm assuming you mean for MS3. I'm actually pretty shocked that there were 18 open spots. Out of my class, 8 people are not going to be with us next year. For one, her husband got residency to Stanford, so she transfered. One person prolly shouldn't have been admitted to the school. One person had a load of different problems that compounded. The other 3 had either personal troubles during some of the test (parent dying, etc) and had to repeat the year. 2 decided their heart wasn't in it and one is becoming a journalist and one is getting an MBS. So I would guess by the time my class get's to MS 3, there will be about 12 open spots.

What I'm shocked about is that this is high compared to other schools. I know when Baylor changed it's curriculum, 20 people had to repeat first year. So you think it would have 20 spots. Maybe some schools budget less third year positions than first. but I donno.
 
Jaded Soul,

I've been reading some of your post for a while now, and have to say congrats. Your step 1 score is bada$$.
 
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