Help wanted

[willowedacorn]

I’m at a cross roads and looking for some advice.

I did a foreign undergrad and I’m 30 credits into a diy Post-Bac at a very low ranked state school. I have straight A’s but I’m looking to go to another program for the remainder of my postbacc, which will be another 30 credits and total my US credits to 60. This will be a formal “career changer” program. I have about 30 credits of science prereqs left and I will take these at the Career Changer institution. My targets are Penn, Wash U, Case Western, JHU, and UC extension. It will be much cheaper to remain at my current school, unless I go to UC extension, but I am worried a 4.0 from this institution won’t hold much weight. Is there a worthwhile benefit to completing my science classes at a more competitive school?

FWIW I went to a prestigious undergrad in the UK (Durham), but I’m not sure this will have much weight since adcomms wont even see my foreign grades.

@Goro
@LizzyM

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[Goro]

I've never heard of Durham, so mo, that won't help.

For postbac, just do well. The place where you do it is not so important.

Pick the program that has:
MCAT prep
Cheapest tuition
One year in length
Has linkage to a med school

 

[Mr.Smile12]

OP: you've asked about international grades before. Keep in mind the suggestions @Goro made.

How to Choose a Postbaccalaureate or Special Masters Program (SMP) - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

P.S. I have heard of Durham. Of course, I have a strong connection with Duke (also in Durham).

 

[willowedacorn]

I've never heard of Durham, so mo, that won't help.

For postbac, just do well. The place where you do it is not so important.

Pick the program that has:
MCAT prep
Cheapest tuition
One year in length
Has linkage to a med school

Interesting, a lot of schools have rigor of college as a key metric. I would’ve thought it’s worth it moving up if my current school is too easy

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Interesting, a lot of schools have rigor of college as a key metric. I would’ve thought it’s worth it moving up if my current school is too easy

It is important, but enrollees at elite colleges generally come from elite social classes. There is more of a call for more social mobility in the US (and I'm not sure how that has extended outside the US) so this isn't an accurate assumption without more information. Regardless, the weight on undergrad institution is being reduced for fairness, especially for those who could not afford direct entry to college.

 

[willowedacorn]

It is important, but enrollees at elite colleges generally come from elite social classes. There is more of a call for more social mobility in the US (and I'm not sure how that has extended outside the US) so this isn't an accurate assumption without more information. Regardless, the weight on undergrad institution is being reduced for fairness, especially for those who could not afford direct entry to college.

I don’t know if this would really apply to me since I did my postbacc at a cal state school but I also have the option of doing it at a more rigorous UC school and the tuition cost would be similar.

 

[LindaAccepted]

I’m at a cross roads and looking for some advice.

I did a foreign undergrad and I’m 30 credits into a diy Post-Bac at a very low ranked state school. I have straight A’s but I’m looking to go to another program for the remainder of my postbacc, which will be another 30 credits and total my US credits to 60. This will be a formal “career changer” program. I have about 30 credits of science prereqs left and I will take these at the Career Changer institution. My targets are Penn, Wash U, Case Western, JHU, and UC extension. It will be much cheaper to remain at my current school, unless I go to UC extension, but I am worried a 4.0 from this institution won’t hold much weight. Is there a worthwhile benefit to completing my science classes at a more competitive school?

FWIW I went to a prestigious undergrad in the UK (Durham), but I’m not sure this will have much weight since adcomms wont even see my foreign grades.

@Goro
@LizzyM

Do you have a sense of how you will do on the MCAT? That will also count in terms of showing academic preparedness.

 

[willowedacorn]

Do you have a sense of how you will do on the MCAT? That will also count in terms of showing academic preparedness.

I haven’t done many science classes so it’s hard to say. But I got 1500+ on the SAT if that’s indicative of anything.

 

[karaya]

I don’t know if this would really apply to me since I did my postbacc at a cal state school but I also have the option of doing it at a more rigorous UC school and the tuition cost would be similar.

Your underlying assumption is off-base. Cal state is fine; I did my entire postbac, all my prereqs, at a CSU and got in. As far as postbacs go, there's little difference in curriculum between the CSU and Berkeley or Penn. Grades and MCAT > school rigor.

 

[LizzyM]

My one concern is that, IIRC, med schools expect a minimum of 90 credits earned in the US (or Canada). You can round out with social science, languages (recommending Spanish), humanities (medical ethics is popular with the pre-med crowd).

 

[willowedacorn]

My one concern is that, IIRC, med schools expect a minimum of 90 credits earned in the US (or Canada). You can round out with social science, languages (recommending Spanish), humanities (medical ethics is popular with the pre-med crowd).

I have looked into this. Although I will not be able to apply to some schools, there are still 50+ MD schools that I will be able to apply to with just 60 credits.

 

[jvquarterback]

Yeah don't lose another year to get to 90 hours if you don't need to. Any CSU should be fine for you post bacc. Plus staying where you are gives you a better chance to continue service.

MCAT will be very important of course.

 

[willowedacorn]

I have looked into this. Although I will not be able to apply to some schools, there are still 50+ MD schools that I will be able to apply to with just 60 credits.

@LizzyM @Goro

Quick follow-up question. I got all A’s in my postbacc (almost all science prereqs) and a 3.3 in my undergrad (all humanities), so my CGPA is 3.4 whereas my SGPA is 4.0. My postbacc is 60 credits and there is a few years between this and my undergrad.

How should I contextualise my GPA when evaluating my competitiveness? Should I go by the lowest one (3.4), average the two, or go with the science only?

WES unfortunately still calculated my COVID grades into my GPA, even though my school went P/F. Unfortunately, this really tanked my WES GPA for my foreign bachelors.

 

[Goro]

@LizzyM @Goro

Quick follow-up question. I got all A’s in my postbacc (almost all science prereqs) and a 3.3 in my undergrad (all humanities), so my CGPA is 3.4 whereas my SGPA is 4.0. My postbacc is 60 credits and there is a few years between this and my undergrad.

How should I contextualise my GPA when evaluating my competitiveness? Should I go by the lowest one (3.4), average the two, or go with the science only?

WES unfortunately still calculated my COVID grades into my GPA, even though my school went P/F. Unfortunately, this really tanked my WES GPA for my foreign bachelors.

You apply like you're a 4.0 student, but ONLY to those mD schools (and all DO) that reward reinvention. Harvard/Stanford class schools can afford to take a pass on you.

WES? Yu have to calculate your GPAs according to how AMCAS and AACOMAS calculate them.

 

[willowedacorn]

You apply like you're a 4.0 student, but ONLY to those mD schools (and all DO) that reward reinvention. Harvard/Stanford class schools can afford to take a pass on you.

WES? Yu have to calculate your GPAs according to how AMCAS and AACOMAS calculate them.

Yep my WES report isn’t included in AMCAS or AACOMAS. My CGPA in both platforms is 4.0. That said, about half of the MD schools that I’ve contacted have mentioned that they will ask for a WES report if I receive a secondary—the others said they don’t care about it at all. All DO schools will see my WES report, despite it not being calculated into my AACOMAS GPA, since AACOMAS mandates me to attach it to my application.

 

[LizzyM]

WES is irrelevant because the medical schools will not look at your foreign degree. The GPA determined by WES is a moot point. You have a 4.0 for the coursework taken in the US.

Are you a US citizen or permanent resident? If not, your choices may be limited in that way but your 4.0 GPA will be a big help. MCAT is the next hurdle.

 

[willowedacorn]

WES is irrelevant because the medical schools will not look at your foreign degree. The GPA determined by WES is a moot point. You have a 4.0 for the coursework taken in the US.

Are you a US citizen or permanent resident? If not, your choices may be limited in that way but your 4.0 GPA will be a big help. MCAT is the next hurdle.

Thank you for your help! I’m a US citizen. That’s interesting since half the MD schools I’ve contacted have said they would ask for my WES report. I presume it won’t be a big factor in my assessment then?

 

[LizzyM]

The schools may want some proof that you have a bachelor's degree (even from abroad) but many may not know how to assess the GPA -- it is hard to know if there is grade deflation in some random school in another country. A LOR from an advisor or professor there could put it in context and might be helpful.

 

[LindaAccepted]

I haven’t done many science classes so it’s hard to say. But I got 1500+ on the SAT if that’s indicative of anything.

I haven't seen data that shows the SAT correlates well or poorly to the MCAT. So I can't say.

 

[willowedacorn]

I haven't seen data that shows the SAT correlates well or poorly to the MCAT. So I can't say.

I imagine it does correlate to some degree. Every career changer postbacc that I’ve applied to asks for SAT scores as part of their evaluation

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Note the dates of some of these studies, so they do not reflect the contemporary adjustments made to both standardized exams. However, I generally comment that performance on standardized tests can be associated with future success on standardized tests of the same format. This is especially true since SAT, ACT, and MCAT scores often correlate as much with student's educational support and SES as it does with their actual "knowledge."

Predictors of MCAT Scores for Black Americans

If minority students likely to score low on the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) can be identified in advance, they can be advised to take existing preparatory programs, or programs can be developed to meet their needs. Correlation coefficients ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A twelve-year profile of students' SAT scores, GPAs, and MCAT scores from a small university's premedical program - PubMed

The students' SAT scores and GPAs proved to be statistically reliable predictors of MCAT scores, but the minority or majority status and the transfer or nontransfer status of the students were statistically insignificant.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240584402030623X

 

[willowedacorn]

I’m going to be greedy and ask another question here @Mr.Smile12 and @LizzyM. Why doesn’t paid work at a non-profit suffice as community service? I would still be helping underprivileged people, and I will be taking a significant haircut on my hourly rate at my other job to do so.

For an industry that already has a big problem retaining and recruiting those from underprivileged backgrounds, I find the soft requirement to do 100s of hours of unpaid work baffling. Non-profits already pay low salaries, I don’t understand what characteristics someone who choses to volunteer without pay demonstrates over someone who earns minimum wage doing the same work.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I’m going to be greedy and ask another question here @Mr.Smile12 and @LizzyM. Why doesn’t paid work at a non-profit suffice as community service? I would still be helping underprivileged people, and I will be taking a significant haircut on my hourly rate at my other job to do so.

For an industry that already has a big problem retaining and recruiting those from underprivileged backgrounds, I find the soft requirement to do 100s of hours of unpaid work baffling. Non-profits already pay low salaries, I don’t understand what characteristics someone who choses to volunteer without pay demonstrates over someone who earns minimum wage doing the same work.

I don't mind if you are compensated. I understand the need to support yourself. Ask other admissions professionals who disagree.

 

[LunaOri]

If you work a long-term paid job helping the underprivileged, that would be enough for me.

 

[willowedacorn]

@Med Ed @Goro. If I recall correctly both of you have mentioned that you prefer to see non-clinical volunteering, as opposed to paid community service work. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Tell us what your paid opportunity is.

 

[willowedacorn]

Tell us what your paid opportunity is.

Homeless outreach. Role would be to provide guidance services and transport services to members of the homeless community.

 

[LizzyM]

I’m going to be greedy and ask another question here @Mr.Smile12 and @LizzyM. Why doesn’t paid work at a non-profit suffice as community service? I would still be helping underprivileged people, and I will be taking a significant haircut on my hourly rate at my other job to do so.

For an industry that already has a big problem retaining and recruiting those from underprivileged backgrounds, I find the soft requirement to do 100s of hours of unpaid work baffling. Non-profits already pay low salaries, I don’t understand what characteristics someone who choses to volunteer without pay demonstrates over someone who earns minimum wage doing the same work.

The expectation for the traditional student is 2 hours/wk for 3-4 years. That is far less than one would do as a job. One evening per week or one day per month. Someone who wants to help others should be able to manage that, even if they need to work while in school or after graduation. I have done this myself for decades, including when I had small kids at home.

Paid work is respected. Certainly, our all volunteer military is paid (and not well) and highly valued by adcoms. Ditto for Teach for America and similar services.

No one is asking you to take a second job. Have you done any volunteer service in the past, even just a few hours sporatically?

 

[willowedacorn]

The expectation for the traditional student is 2 hours/wk for 3-4 years. That is far less than one would do as a job. One evening per week or one day per month. Someone who wants to help others should be able to manage that, even if they need to work while in school or after graduation. I have done this myself for decades, including when I had small kids at home.

Paid work is respected. Certainly, our all volunteer military is paid (and not well) and highly valued by adcoms. Ditto for Teach for America and similar services.

No one is asking you to take a second job. Have you done any volunteer service in the past, even just a few hours sporatically?

I have volunteered in the past—and still do so today! The issue is that since I’m a career changer my timeline is rather condensed and I would have to do at-least 4 hours a week to acclimate a competitive number of hours. Additionally, many of the charities near me hire fractional employees where you do what a volunteer would do but still get paid minimum wage.

 

[LizzyM]

I have volunteered in the past—and still do so today! The issue is that since I’m a career changer my timeline is rather condensed and I would have to do at-least 4 hours a week to acclimate a competitive number of hours. Additionally, many of the charities near me hire fractional employees where you do what a volunteer would do but still get paid minimum wage.

Anything you have done in the past -- since you turned 18 -- can count.

Are these minimum wage jobs aimed at providing a few dollars to otherwise unemployable people? I've not heard of soup kitchens, pantries, shelters, and similar social services paying those who serve.

 

[willowedacorn]

Anything you have done in the past -- since you turned 18 -- can count.

Are these minimum wage jobs aimed at providing a few dollars to otherwise unemployable people? I've not heard of soup kitchens, pantries, shelters, and similar social services paying those who serve.

That’s a very cynical suggestion. I’d imagine they do it to recruit and retain longer-term volunteers. All the paid positions require a minimum of 6 hours a week.

 

[LizzyM]

I didn't mean it to be cynical... I do believe that there are some people, particularly the elderly and disabled (who may not appear to be disabled) who would like to be able to work at least a few hours per week and for whom this type of work would be both remunerative and giving them a sense of purpose.