Help! What to do if I suddenly want to specify "MSTP/ MD-PHD"?

[supermintyfresh]

I suddenly decided that I wanted to apply to some MSTP and MD/PhD programs as well, but my primary is already verified (and I didn't write the required essays for MD/PhD like significant research experience)

But many of the secondaries allow you to select MD/PhD on the school application. Does that mean I do not need the AMCAS primary essays?

Thanks y'all in advance! 😀

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[theseeker4]

I suddenly decided that I wanted to apply to some MSTP and MD/PhD programs as well, but my primary is already verified (and I didn't write the required essays for MD/PhD like significant research experience)

But many of the secondaries allow you to select MD/PhD on the school application. Does that mean I do not need the AMCAS primary essays?

Thanks y'all in advance! 😀

Contact the individual admissions offices of the schools with programs you are interested in. If you can simply tell them via a letter or secondary, that makes it easier, and if you need to withdraw and reapply your AMCAS for a specific school, they will tell you that.

 

[wholeheartedly]

That's a pretty big thing to suddenly decide.

 

[Cambover]

To apply MD/PhD your application almost needs to be tailored to that program (essays, LOR's, etc). It may be easier to add schools then to switch consideration.

 

[487806]

I suddenly decided that I wanted to apply to some MSTP and MD/PhD programs as well, but my primary is already verified (and I didn't write the required essays for MD/PhD like significant research experience)

But many of the secondaries allow you to select MD/PhD on the school application. Does that mean I do not need the AMCAS primary essays?

Thanks y'all in advance! 😀

I don't advise it. Apply to MD-only schools and just around orientation, apply internally to MSTP/MD-PhD.

 

[SilverCat]

I don't advise it. Apply to MD-only schools and just around orientation, apply internally to MSTP/MD-PhD.

This isn't easy at some schools (I know, I tried), which may already have given out all of their MD- PhD full tuition scholarships by orientation. You can always just add the PhD without getting the tuition and stipend money, but it's an expensive route with the interest accumulation.

Definitely contact the schools now to see what can be done.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Honestly, MD/PhD isn't something you can do on a whim. You need a ton of productive research experience and LORs from all your mentors. Then your entire application needs to be tailored for MD/PhD. The LORs need to mention your desire to be a researcher. Your essays need to communicate that as well. And any sign that you're really set on the MD will usually get you rejected hard.

 

[Mel Belle]

Honestly, MD/PhD isn't something you can do on a whim. You need a ton of productive research experience and LORs from all your mentors. Then your entire application needs to be tailored for MD/PhD. The LORs need to mention your desire to be a researcher. Your essays need to communicate that as well. And any sign that you're really set on the MD will usually get you rejected hard.

This ^ is the reason why I'm confused as to why some people on here tell me not to worry about whether I'll apply MD or MD/PhD. If I have to tailor my application towards MD/PhD then why would someone recommend I decide later once I'm almost a senior? Seriously... 😕

 

[wholeheartedly]

This ^ is the reason why I'm confused as to why some people on here tell me not to worry about whether I'll apply MD or MD/PhD. If I have to tailor my application towards MD/PhD then why would someone recommend I decide later once I'm almost a senior? Seriously... 😕

I suppose it depends on which direction you've been prepping from. If you've only got min. or no research and have only been prepping for MD then you can't really up and decide at the last minute to go MD/PhD. However, if you've been prepping for MD/PhD then decide research really isn't what you want to do with you life you could make that decision later provided you have other good ECs.

 

[Mel Belle]

I suppose it depends on which direction you've been prepping from. If you've only got min. or no research and have only been prepping for MD then you can't really up and decide at the last minute to go MD/PhD. However, if you've been prepping for MD/PhD then decide research really isn't what you want to do with you life you could make that decision later provided you have other good ECs.

I've outlined where I am in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=14336407

But basically I've been considering MD/PhD ever since I was in high school when I started doing some research junior and senior year. I'll be a college sophomore in the fall but I won't be able to start research until the spring because biochem research has some pre-reqs. Some of my struggle is trying to think about whether MD/PhD is the right decision for me or not. MD/PhD is not that popular and I think sometimes my advisers don't remember (reasonably) that MD/PhD is my trajectory so I'm worried that I'm not going down the right path for the reason that I may not necessarily know what I should be doing better.

 

[Synapsin]

Many schools allow, in theory, students to transit from MD only to MD/PhD in their first year (ie so you can do a lab rotation during the summer between MS1 and MS2). If you have already submitted your AMCAS I suspect this is the path that will be most likely to work for you.

 

[Mel Belle]

Many schools allow, in theory, students to transit from MD only to MD/PhD in their first year (ie so you can do a lab rotation during the summer between MS1 and MS2). If you have already submitted your AMCAS I suspect this is the path that will be most likely to work for you.

If you do it that way do you still get the financial compensation? Just curious. That's not the reason that I'm looking into it, but that's a nice thing to have, of course.

 

[Synapsin]

From my understanding (speaking only for the med school where I'm currently a graduate student) is that you wouldn't get it during your first year (you have to cover that yourself) as you are not admitted officially into the MD/PhD program until the summer and from then on you pick up the same support as if you had entered the program immediately. I have read on the websites of a couple med schools I applied to the have one to two spots available per year for MD students to make this transition (not that I'm interested in that as I'm already doing the MD/PhD thing, just in the opposite order)

All that being said, I have no idea how competitive it is to secure such a transition....

 

[487806]

This ^ is the reason why I'm confused as to why some people on here tell me not to worry about whether I'll apply MD or MD/PhD. If I have to tailor my application towards MD/PhD then why would someone recommend I decide later once I'm almost a senior? Seriously... 😕

The distinction reduces if you're aiming for top tiers, since they're research-intensive schools. The requirement of MD/PhD is to have a strong experience ans longetivity in research, as well.as having excellent stats. Other activities are important but are given less consideration.

If anything, decide on whether you want to.pursue an MD or MD-PhD by the end of your sophomore year. But a gap year would be necessary to focus on fulltime research.

 

[wholeheartedly]

If you do it that way do you still get the financial compensation? Just curious. That's not the reason that I'm looking into it, but that's a nice thing to have, of course.

I think it's somewhat variable and program specific. Not all programs allow it and if they do it's generally pretty competitive or there aren't a lot of spots. I think a lot of places you don't apply after MS1 but after showing a solid performance in MS1 & 2, but that might vary also. As far as funding goes, it depends. Usually you don't get funding until you're in the MD/PhD program and it isn't retroactive. I've heard of some cases where you only get funding for the PhD portion.

 

[Mel Belle]

The distinction reduces if you're aiming for top tiers, since they're research-intensive schools. The requirement of MD/PhD is to have a strong experience ans longetivity in research, as well.as having excellent stats. Other activities are important but are given less consideration.

If anything, decide on whether you want to.pursue an MD or MD-PhD by the end of your sophomore year. But a gap year would be necessary to focus on fulltime research.

So further on the topic of research... Through the rest of undergrad what sort of setup am I looking at? I know a lot of people do SURP programs that are not at their own institution. So let's say after I start research in the spring at my small college I get into a SURP program. Am I supposed to stay with my own institution or is it fine as long as I continue my project in the fall? My college doesn't have any of its own SURP programs so I'd probably have to get an apartment or something if I were required to stay at my institution, which doesn't seem like something I can afford just yet.

I feel like this sounds like a dumb noob question but... it's a legit question. Haha.

 

[music2doc]

I don't advise it. Apply to MD-only schools and just around orientation, apply internally to MSTP/MD-PhD.

At least here you cannot do that. Our MD/PhDs start the summer before everyone else gets here for orientation. They begin receiving their funding mid-summer, so you can't apply to switch over at Orientation or any time thereafter.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

So further on the topic of research... Through the rest of undergrad what sort of setup am I looking at? I know a lot of people do SURP programs that are not at their own institution. So let's say after I start research in the spring at my small college I get into a SURP program. Am I supposed to stay with my own institution or is it fine as long as I continue my project in the fall? My college doesn't have any of its own SURP programs so I'd probably have to get an apartment or something if I were required to stay at my institution, which doesn't seem like something I can afford just yet.

I feel like this sounds like a dumb noob question but... it's a legit question. Haha.

Summer research programs aren't viewed very highly by MD/PhD programs due to how short they are. They're definitely better than doing nothing during the summer, but you would be better served working the same lab year round. Since almost all MD/PhD programs want at least 2 research mentor letters, you'll also want to work in at least two different labs for at least a year each before applying. This is often accomplished by working in one lab during undergrad and then taking a couple gap years to work as a research assistant/lab tech in another lab.

How far away from your college do you live? Commuting distance? When I worked in my lab during the summer in undergrad I made a 1 hour commute to and from the lab every day. If you live too far away for commuting to be possible then I would look into a SURP/SURF at other colleges as it's the next best thing. They're very competitive since a lot of students go to colleges with weak research, so you'll need a pretty beefy application and will need to send in a lot of applications to have a shot. If that fails and research isn't possible during the summer, then go about strengthening your MD app with volunteering, shadowing, hobbies, etc.

 

[Mel Belle]

Summer research programs aren't viewed very highly by MD/PhD programs due to how short they are. They're definitely better than doing nothing during the summer, but you would be better served working the same lab year round. Since almost all MD/PhD programs want at least 2 research mentor letters, you'll also want to work in at least two different labs for at least a year each before applying. This is often accomplished by working in one lab during undergrad and then taking a couple gap years to work as a research assistant/lab tech in another lab.

How far away from your college do you live? Commuting distance? When I worked in my lab during the summer in undergrad I made a 1 hour commute to and from the lab every day. If you live too far away for commuting to be possible then I would look into a SURP/SURF at other colleges as it's the next best thing. They're very competitive since a lot of students go to colleges with weak research, so you'll need a pretty beefy application and will need to send in a lot of applications to have a shot. If that fails and research isn't possible during the summer, then go about strengthening your MD app with volunteering, shadowing, hobbies, etc.

Well, I live just under 2 hours away. My car is crappy and my parents forbid me from driving it outside of the immediate area near my house. I don't have the money to buy a better car or pay for an apartment. Just the reality of my situation. So it seems like SURP programs are my only hope. As long as I'm continuing my research (even though I have to put it on hiatus for the summer) is that still considered "okay" or it is just plain "bad"?

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Well, I live just under 2 hours away. My car is crappy and my parents forbid me from driving it outside of the immediate area near my house. I don't have the money to buy a better car or pay for an apartment. Just the reality of my situation. So it seems like SURP programs are my only hope. As long as I'm continuing my research (even though I have to put it on hiatus for the summer) is that still considered "okay" or it is just plain "bad"?

The important thing is that you be doing something productive and ideally career related year-round, and that you have a long term research experience. It's totally fine to do SURPs during the summer and research in your main lab during the school year since you still have that long term experience. The problem with SURPs comes when they're a person's only research experiences, or make up the bulk of their research experience.

 

[487806]

Well, I live just under 2 hours away. My car is crappy and my parents forbid me from driving it outside of the immediate area near my house. I don't have the money to buy a better car or pay for an apartment. Just the reality of my situation. So it seems like SURP programs are my only hope. As long as I'm continuing my research (even though I have to put it on hiatus for the summer) is that still considered "okay" or it is just plain "bad"?

It's alright but make sure you can discuss your experiences thoroughly.

Neuronix explains the process better than me.

 

[URHere]

But many of the secondaries allow you to select MD/PhD on the school application. Does that mean I do not need the AMCAS primary essays?

Unless something has changed over the past few years, you are required to complete the two additional AMCAS MD/PhD essays in order to apply to MD/PhD programs. There was a thread about this in the physician scientist forum a couple of years ago, and if I remember correctly, others were able to log into AMCAS, change their application to MD/PhD, and fill in the additional essays at this point. The only downside is that your application will need to be re-certified, and I'm not sure how that will affect your secondaries, etc.

It may be a good idea to search for that thread to get some additional information.

Many schools allow, in theory, students to transit from MD only to MD/PhD in their first year (ie so you can do a lab rotation during the summer between MS1 and MS2).

If you do it that way do you still get the financial compensation?

As others have said, this is very school specific because all programs arrange their student funding differently. At my school, students can apply after MS1 or MS2 and there is usually funding for these additional students, but this doesn't happen everywhere. Years in medical school before entering the combined program are unfunded. Your best bet is to call individual programs and ask what their policies are. If possible, also find current MD/PhD students on SDN who attend the schools you are interested in - current students can usually tell you how often internal transfers happen.

So further on the topic of research... Through the rest of undergrad what sort of setup am I looking at?

You can research just about anything, but you need to be involved for a prolonged period of time (2-4 years is fairly standard) and you need to have a lot of independent responsibility for your project. Working as a tech for 2 years will not cut it. You need to get to the point where you are contributing intellectually to projects, performing the experiments, analyzing the data, and presenting your work. Usually this means working up to your own project in the lab.

 

[Mel Belle]

You can research just about anything, but you need to be involved for a prolonged period of time (2-4 years is fairly standard) and you need to have a lot of independent responsibility for your project. Working as a tech for 2 years will not cut it. You need to get to the point where you are contributing intellectually to projects, performing the experiments, analyzing the data, and presenting your work. Usually this means working up to your own project in the lab.

Do you have any tips off the top of your head when it comes to gaining intellectual responsibility? Maybe that's worded a bit funny. But I'm not sure some of my advisers are keen on what MD/PhD applications entail, so I wouldn't want to just assume my school's biochemist knows how dire independence would be. I'm taking a biochem independent study this semester since I'm working on biochem pre-reqs for next semester's research... Does that help on my application at all? I know it will help my knowledge in preparation for the lab, which is why I'm doing it, I'm just wondering if ADCOMs will see it as a positive thing, even though it's only 1 credit. (I'm taking cell/molec bio, orgo, calc-based physics, and calculus the same semester, so I don't wanna be a badass with 19 credits (plus a tutoring job) and be unable to handle it well.)

Also... I won't be able to continue research at my college over the summer for a number of reasons (I live too far away, so it's too much financially). I plan to apply to SURP programs and then continue my research when I'm back in the fall. Is that okay? Will I probably need a gap year? I'll be a sophomore in the fall and I'll finally be on a research project this spring.

 

[URHere]

I'm taking a biochem independent study this semester since I'm working on biochem pre-reqs for next semester's research... Does that help on my application at all?

A one credit lab will barely be a blip on your application, but if you can use this to transition into something long-term, that could benefit you. Overall, you need to focus on finding a long-term position. For most people, it goes something like this: (1) send emails to professors with interesting research, (2) land a position as a tech/dishwasher slave for a semester, (3) spend as much time with postdocs and grad students as possible, learn skills, and become competent, (4) move up the ladder and begin work on a small independent project, (5) work on that project as extensively as possible.

It takes time, but the progression is fairly organic if you do it right.

Also... I won't be able to continue research at my college over the summer for a number of reasons (I live too far away, so it's too much financially). I plan to apply to SURP programs and then continue my research when I'm back in the fall. Is that okay? Will I probably need a gap year? I'll be a sophomore in the fall and I'll finally be on a research project this spring.

You can always look for short-term summer gigs. I had two of them when I was in college - both were located in my hometown, and had nothing to do with my research during the academic year.

Whether or not you need a gap year depends on how soon you start in a more permanent lab position. If you find something sophomore year and stick with it, you should be fine without a gap year.

 

[Mel Belle]

A one credit lab will barely be a blip on your application, but if you can use this to transition into something long-term, that could benefit you. Overall, you need to focus on finding a long-term position. For most people, it goes something like this: (1) send emails to professors with interesting research, (2) land a position as a tech/dishwasher slave for a semester, (3) spend as much time with postdocs and grad students as possible, learn skills, and become competent, (4) move up the ladder and begin work on a small independent project, (5) work on that project as extensively as possible.

It takes time, but the progression is fairly organic if you do it right.

It's not a lab, just an independent study, the kind where I design a course with my mentor and complete assignments. Maybe I'm confusing terminology. But this is all I could manage this semester because the other labs are already full. (I got to a very small school.)

You can always look for short-term summer gigs. I had two of them when I was in college - both were located in my hometown, and had nothing to do with my research during the academic year.

Whether or not you need a gap year depends on how soon you start in a more permanent lab position. If you find something sophomore year and stick with it, you should be fine without a gap year.

That's good to hear. Some people made it sound like it was a bad thing if you couldn't continue with your research over the summer. I just can't afford to commute or get an apartment up there. Getting a stipend and all for SURP programs is all I can do.

Also, on a related note... I don't have a lot of ECs. I'm a simple person. I like reading, exercising, and writing for my college newspaper. People make it seem like you need a bunch of ECs. I hear it's not as much a big deal for MD/PhD since they look primarily at research? How true is this? I was going to try and accumulate an insane amount of shadowing and volunteering hours to compensate, but if I do SURP programs I will only have winter breaks, really, to do that.