help with math probability

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polishp86

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Hey guys, just a quick question about probabilities...I'm horrible with them. I am using the destroyer from august 1, 2007. IT's number 64 of the math section. The question is : The weatherman tells you that there's a 70% chance of rain each day for the next 3 days. What's the probability it will rain 2 out of the next 3 days?

The solution says to use the formula:

P = (nCr)(p)^n(1-p)^r

n being the total # trials
r being the # of trials with the desired result
p being the probability of the event occuring

THe book then says this is the solution:

P = (3C2)(.7)^2(.3)^1

???

I am completely lost as to why .7 is ^2 and .3 is ^1

I thought it would be .7^3 (n=3, as shown in the representation of nCr-->3C2) and I thought .3^2 (r=2 as also shown in nCr)

What am I doing wrong here...or is the book wrong?

Also, how do you know when to use nCr, nPr, or the above equation when dealing with other probabilities? Are there any word clues that you can use to help you distinguish which one to use?

Thanks in advance for any and all help with this, I really appreciate it.🙂
 
When I ask for "word clues" to give hints as to what equation to use I don't know if I come across clear enough.

What I mean is this: "How do I know when to use the permutation or the combination equation for probabilities? Are there any words that would tell you which to use or are there other ways to tell? How do you know when the problem will require some crazy equation, such as the example I am having trouble with above?"


Thanks, I hope that is more clear now.
 
2 is the number of days it will rain so its associated with success which is 70%=70/100=.7 . 1 of the three days it will not rain, which is associated with failure 30% =.3 , the solutions in destroyer actually tells you when to use it, it starts off with a sentence and says in the solution section, I don't know what the older versions show though, but you either use that equation or n!/r!(n-r)! or n!/(n-r)! don't fully know when to choose which though.
 

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nCr (p)^r (1-p)^1-r


I thought that nCr was:

n!/r!(n-r)!


if just in this instance you use the equation you supplied, then the Destroyer gives the incorrect formula in the solutions. How would I know when to apply an equation such as nCr (p)^r (1-p)^1-r instead of using the normal nCr equation?

Marcus - Is this definitely the correct equation or were you just trying to help make sense of it the best (or easiest) way possible? The reason I ask is because I am very confused and I can use all the help I can get in understanding permutations and combinations. I actually thought this was how it would be done, but since the equation given in the solutions was different I knew that I had better ask.
 
2 is the number of days it will rain so its associated with success which is 70%=70/100=.7 . 1 of the three days it will not rain, which is associated with failure 30% =.3 , the solutions in destroyer actually tells you when to use it, it starts off with a sentence and says in the solution section, I don't know what the older versions show though, but you either use that equation or n!/r!(n-r)! or n!/(n-r)! don't fully know when to choose which though.


kov - I understand all this but I also do not know when to use each equation. I wish it were as simple as just using both and seeing which one comes out w/the right answer, but on the destroyer (no idea of DAT will be the same) they tend to give the answers that would be found for both nCr and nPr, so basically you have to KNOW when to use it instead of just applying both.

Anyone know how to explain when to use which? Anyone?
 
by the way, the answer the book gives is 441/1000

I don't think you are thinking the question right. This type of probability is not a permutation/combination type of questions. This is how I calculate this. You have three days. Each day can only be raining (R) or Sunny (S). So there are 8 possible outcomes:

SSS
SSR
SRS
RSS
SRR
RSR
RRS
RRR

The question ask the chance of two days raining and each day has a 0.7 chance raining. So that means 0.7x0.7x0.3 (one sunny has 0.3 chance)=0.147...but there are three possible ways to get two raining day out of the possible 8. So 0.147x3=0.441.....I don't think you can use combination or permutation equations to solve this problem...combination or permutation is more suitable like lottery type of questions...such as picking 6 number out of 51 etc....hopefully this helps...
 
I don't think you are thinking the question right. This type of probability is not a permutation/combination type of questions. This is how I calculate this. You have three days. Each day can only be raining (R) or Sunny (S). So there are 8 possible outcomes:

SSS
SSR
SRS
RSS
SRR
RSR
RRS
RRR

The question ask the chance of two days raining and each day has a 0.7 chance raining. So that means 0.7x0.7x0.3 (one sunny has 0.3 chance)=0.147...but there are three possible ways to get two raining day out of the possible 8. So 0.147x3=0.441.....I don't think you can use combination or permutation equations to solve this problem...combination or permutation is more suitable like lottery type of questions...such as picking 6 number out of 51 etc....hopefully this helps...


this is a much better explanation that the book gives, but can you explain it in a way that uses the formulas? I guess I just figured this problem was similar to permutation and combinations because of the solution in the book (my 1st post in this thread). I still do not fully understand when to use the permutation or the combination equation, which is why I have posted so much about it lol. If you (or anyone else) can explain any more about either permutation or combination I would appreciate it.
 
this is a much better explanation that the book gives, but can you explain it in a way that uses the formulas? I guess I just figured this problem was similar to permutation and combinations because of the solution in the book (my 1st post in this thread). I still do not fully understand when to use the permutation or the combination equation, which is why I have posted so much about it lol. If you (or anyone else) can explain any more about either permutation or combination I would appreciate it.
A typical combination problem is like lottery. Say you have 30 numbers and you need to pick 6...and in this case the arrangement doesn't matter (mean 1,2,3,4,5,6 is the same as 2,1,4,3,6,5 since there are the same 6 number). So you will use the combination formula to find out how many possible combination there is 30!/(24!*6!)=593775 different combinations to pick out 6 number out of 30 (that is why lottery is hard win)....But if the arrangement matters....(so 1,2,3,4,5,6 is a different from 2,1,4,3,6,5), then you use the permutation formula...to pick 6 out of 30 where arrangement counts is 30!/(30-6)! So you can see your weather question is not this type of questions...I really don't know is there a formula for that...but then again, I been out of school for a long time...so I might forgot some formulas already. But somestimes formula really can confuse you unless you know when to use the right formula...like in this case...
 
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Hey guys, just a quick question about probabilities...I'm horrible with them. I am using the destroyer from august 1, 2007. IT's number 64 of the math section. The question is : The weatherman tells you that there's a 70% chance of rain each day for the next 3 days. What's the probability it will rain 2 out of the next 3 days?

The solution says to use the formula:

P = (nCr)(p)^n(1-p)^r

n being the total # trials
r being the # of trials with the desired result
p being the probability of the event occuring

THe book then says this is the solution:

P = (3C2)(.7)^2(.3)^1

???

I am completely lost as to why .7 is ^2 and .3 is ^1

I thought it would be .7^3 (n=3, as shown in the representation of nCr-->3C2) and I thought .3^2 (r=2 as also shown in nCr)

What am I doing wrong here...or is the book wrong?

Also, how do you know when to use nCr, nPr, or the above equation when dealing with other probabilities? Are there any word clues that you can use to help you distinguish which one to use?

Thanks in advance for any and all help with this, I really appreciate it.🙂
Formula is nCr * p^r * (1-p)^(n-r), I don't think anyone has gotten it right yet.

Okay piece by piece here.

nCr first: This is n!/(n-r)!r!

The n! on top would be the # of events while the r is the # of desired successes. Here we have n = 3 days with r = 2 days of rain. Considering n! and (n-r)! alone would be useless. If we look at them together, we notice that n!/(n-r)! actually leaves us with 👎(n-1)(n-2)...(n-r+1). Take a closer look and you'll notice that there are 'r' number of terms in there.

For example if you had n = 10 and r = 4, you would have 10!/(10-4)! = 10!/6! = 10*9*8*7. There are 4 terms there. With r = 4 you want 4 successes so you consider the first 4 terms.

In our example we have n = 3 and r = 2 so that's 3! / (3-2)! = 3!/1! = 3*2. This represents the first two terms of 3!.

nCr asks the question: how many ways can we select 'r' objects from a group of 'n' objects without considering the order we select them in?

Now if we want a specific order that's nPr and that's just n!/(n-r)! which we've already done. To get nCr we throw in that r! in the denominator. Since we are picking 'r' number of successes, how do we account for the number of ways we could have selected them? Given a group of 'r' objects, how many ways could we order them? We could order them in r! different ways.

For example with A B C D E we could pick it in that order, we could do B A C D E, we could do C E D B A, and so forth. If order doesn't matter then we only need to consider ONE of those. That's why we divide by r!. With 2 objects we could have A B or we could have B A. So we divide by 2! = 2. Now we'll only consider 1/2 of them. With 3 objects we could have ABC, ACB, BAC, BCA, CAB, or CBA. So we divide by 3! = 6. Now we'll only consider 1/6 of them.

So that's the nCr (the hardest part of this).

Next is the p^r. The 'p' here stands for probability of course and it typically denotes the probability of SUCCESS. In this case we want rain which has probability of 0.7. The r is the number of successful events. We want 2 days of rain. So we do 0.7^2.

Last is the (1-p)^(n-r). The (1-p) represents probability of FAILURE. Here we have a 0.3 chance of no rain. The (n-r) is the number of non-successful events. We want 1 day without rain. So we do 0.3^1.

Okay so now we group it together.

If you are still confused about why we do 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 then think of it this way:

What if I just wanted to know the probability of rain on day 1, rain on day 2, and no rain on day 3?

You would do 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.3 right? This is 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 which is what we have. That's essentially what that part of the problem does. It takes one example of an outcome that matches what we're looking for. Alternatively you could have chosen rain on day 1, no rain on day 2, and rain on day 3, to get 0.7 * 0.3 * 0.7 which is still 0.7^2 * 0.3^1. It doesn't matter. They are both acceptable outcomes of 2 days rain, 1 day no rain.

The nCr part tells you how many ways this outcome could occur. It's not enough to say 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 because you could have rain, rain, no rain... you could have rain, no rain, rain... you could have no rain, rain, rain. The 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 only accounts for 1 of those. To get the right answer you need the nCr to account for ALL of those.

In total you have 3!/(3-2)!2! * 0.7^2 * 0.3^1

which is 3 * (7/10)^2 * (3/10)

which is (3*49*3) / (1000)

which is 441/1000.

Hope this helps.
 
Formula is nCr * p^r * (1-p)^(n-r), I don't think anyone has gotten it right yet.

Okay piece by piece here.

nCr first: This is n!/(n-r)!r!

The n! on top would be the # of events while the r is the # of desired successes. Here we have n = 3 days with r = 2 days of rain. Considering n! and (n-r)! alone would be useless. If we look at them together, we notice that n!/(n-r)! actually leaves us with 👎(n-1)(n-2)...(n-r+1). Take a closer look and you'll notice that there are 'r' number of terms in there.

For example if you had n = 10 and r = 4, you would have 10!/(10-4)! = 10!/6! = 10*9*8*7. There are 4 terms there. With r = 4 you want 4 successes so you consider the first 4 terms.

In our example we have n = 3 and r = 2 so that's 3! / (3-2)! = 3!/1! = 3*2. This represents the first two terms of 3!.

nCr asks the question: how many ways can we select 'r' objects from a group of 'n' objects without considering the order we select them in?

Now if we want a specific order that's nPr and that's just n!/(n-r)! which we've already done. To get nCr we throw in that r! in the denominator. Since we are picking 'r' number of successes, how do we account for the number of ways we could have selected them? Given a group of 'r' objects, how many ways could we order them? We could order them in r! different ways.

For example with A B C D E we could pick it in that order, we could do B A C D E, we could do C E D B A, and so forth. If order doesn't matter then we only need to consider ONE of those. That's why we divide by r!. With 2 objects we could have A B or we could have B A. So we divide by 2! = 2. Now we'll only consider 1/2 of them. With 3 objects we could have ABC, ACB, BAC, BCA, CAB, or CBA. So we divide by 3! = 6. Now we'll only consider 1/6 of them.

So that's the nCr (the hardest part of this).

Next is the p^r. The 'p' here stands for probability of course and it typically denotes the probability of SUCCESS. In this case we want rain which has probability of 0.7. The r is the number of successful events. We want 2 days of rain. So we do 0.7^2.

Last is the (1-p)^(n-r). The (1-p) represents probability of FAILURE. Here we have a 0.3 chance of no rain. The (n-r) is the number of non-successful events. We want 1 day without rain. So we do 0.3^1.

Okay so now we group it together.

If you are still confused about why we do 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 then think of it this way:

What if I just wanted to know the probability of rain on day 1, rain on day 2, and no rain on day 3?

You would do 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.3 right? This is 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 which is what we have. That's essentially what that part of the problem does. It takes one example of an outcome that matches what we're looking for. Alternatively you could have chosen rain on day 1, no rain on day 2, and rain on day 3, to get 0.7 * 0.3 * 0.7 which is still 0.7^2 * 0.3^1. It doesn't matter. They are both acceptable outcomes of 2 days rain, 1 day no rain.

The nCr part tells you how many ways this outcome could occur. It's not enough to say 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 because you could have rain, rain, no rain... you could have rain, no rain, rain... you could have no rain, rain, rain. The 0.7^2 * 0.3^1 only accounts for 1 of those. To get the right answer you need the nCr to account for ALL of those.

In total you have 3!/(3-2)!2! * 0.7^2 * 0.3^1

which is 3 * (7/10)^2 * (3/10)

which is (3*49*3) / (1000)

which is 441/1000.

Hope this helps.


Thanks a bunch! This definitely helped to explain it, I will try it again a few times to see if I got it down, I appreciate your time!😀
 
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