Hesitation in beginning this career?

[dcc777]

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I was accepted to a clinical doctorate program which I've been working to do for a LONG time thinking it's all I've ever wanted, and now I am hesitant to accept it because quite honestly this website has scared me off!

Based on this website this is what I seem to be about to do: be miserable for the next 5-7 years, move 8083429 times all over the county and end up getting paid as much as I could with a Bachelors or Masters in some other random field.

So I guess clinical psych isnt what I thought it was? I always knew I wouldn't be rich but I never thought I'd be POOR.

I think I would really like a few things cleared up before I decide if I want to REALLY commit to this.

I have a very good idea of what my 4-5 (6?) years of grad school will be like, then there's everything after....

How do you decide where to go for internship? Is it much like applying to graduate school? Are you paid? How much(little) are you paid? It seems as though most people get accepted no where near their graduate institution.

After 1 year of internship, do you HAVE to do a post-doc? If not, what's the other option? How do you find a place in which to do a post-doc? Are you basically guaranteed to have to move yet again? How much does one get paid? And how long must you be there? What kind of work might one be doing?

What comes after that???

 

[lava12345]

I was accepted to a clinical doctorate program which I've been working to do for a LONG time thinking it's all I've ever wanted, and now I am hesitant to accept it because quite honestly this website has scared me off!

Based on this website this is what I seem to be about to do: be miserable for the next 5-7 years, move 8083429 times all over the county and end up getting paid as much as I could with a Bachelors or Masters in some other random field.

So I guess clinical psych isnt what I thought it was? I always knew I wouldn't be rich but I never thought I'd be POOR.

I think I would really like a few things cleared up before I decide if I want to REALLY commit to this.

I have a very good idea of what my 4-5 (6?) years of grad school will be like, then there's everything after....

How do you decide where to go for internship? Is it much like applying to graduate school? Are you paid? How much(little) are you paid? It seems as though most people get accepted no where near their graduate institution.

After 1 year of internship, do you HAVE to do a post-doc? If not, what's the other option? How do you find a place in which to do a post-doc? Are you basically guaranteed to have to move yet again? How much does one get paid? And how long must you be there? What kind of work might one be doing?

What comes after that???

Please please please talk to some people about this in real life. I think this board can be a magnet for disgruntled people to commiserate together. Just getting into a doctoral program is a huge feat, so I'd hate for you to throw it away over a web message board.

Internship applications are alot like grad school applications and you have to travel to interview. However, you rank internship sites on a website, which matches you to an internship site. You have no choice over where you get matched, except for the internship sites you chose to rank. The website has some sort of algorithm that tries to match student's first choices with the site's first choices of potential intern.

Depending on the state, you have to have a certain number of supervised hours after obtaining your degree in order to become licensed. Many people accomplish this through a formal post-doc, however that is not necessary. Type of work at post-docs will vary based on whether they are clinically focused or research focused.

Most people move for internship. Some internship sites have post docs that their interns funnel into, some don't.

 

[busybusybusy]

Not all of us are unhappy in our choice. I worked for years in BA/MA roles under psychologists and have no doubt in my mind that I am on the right path. I'm not going to lie and say grad school is easy or that it won't be difficult or that you'll easily find a job you love directly out of grad school, but no field will give you that. Obviously by the fact that you made it in to a doc program you are not afraid of working hard, grad school (in any field) is hard work, beginning a career is hard work. Some people feel that as soon as you finish grad school life should be easy, it won't be, but if you can handle the hard work you'll be fine.

 

[gth1985]

dcc, I'm feeling just like you. I have an offer of acceptance, but am hesitating bc this board has got me terribly uneasy.

I second the suggestion from above - find people to talk to in real life about this. I suggest you find people that are doing as close to what you want to do as possible. In other words, for example, if you want to be in the clinical world, talk to a clinician, not an academic. Personally, I have already spoken to one person last week, and have made arrangements on speaking to another this week.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Do you know any clinical psychologists or grad students in the field? Did you ever work in a research lab? Maybe you can get in touch with those people, they should be able to fill you in and give you a realistic understanding of what it is like.

 

[GoPokes]

That thread made me re-question my career choice too. However, I'm going to go ahead and begin my doctoral program with a look of optomism. I'm fully committed to this career path come hell or high water.

 

[serotonin]

it's like reading apartment reviews online- most of the people post to complain. You never hear about the majority (usually!) that like / love it.

I liked/loved grad school for my clinical psych PhD and would do it again in a heartbeat 🙂

Are there any other resources you can check out besides this site?

 

[roubs]

You won't be poor. Look at the salary data for the region you think you'll settle in, it is a good estimate and should be given more weight than complaints on SDN.

I don't get the idea that you move a ton, you could move for grad school/internship/post-doc/job. And btw there have been plenty of people in my program who are respected from moving for those last three because of spouses/children and somehow they've made it and are employed. If you can move anywhere for those last three you could possibly get better training/better job/better pay out if it.

 

[busybusybusy]

If it helps I know just as many psychologists who are happy in their careers, have rarely moved and are making well over $100,000/year as there are people in here complaining. One of the reasons I can easily stay committed despite bs, I have seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[psychQs]

Double post

 

[psychQs]

If it helps I know just as many psychologists who are happy in their careers, have rarely moved and are making well over $100,000/year as there are people in here complaining. One of the reasons I can easily stay committed despite bs, I have seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

It does help! What kinds of careers do they have?

 

[busybusybusy]

There's actually a wide variety. One is private practice, a few work in the federal govt (BOP & VA), one works with the military, but as a civilian contractor, and one is a school psychologist - but did her degree in clinical child psych. Now, none of them are early career psychologists, but none are close to retirement either. Most of them are 5-10 years in.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

Do whatever will make you happy, just make sure you go into it knowing the facts.

I've said a lot that I would have liked someone to tell me that you can be a "therapist" without being a "psychologist" (for a lot less in tuition and a lot less time!). When applying for internship - a required part of any APA accredited grad program - more than 50% of PsyD students have 120k in student loan debt related solely to grad study in psychology. PhDs have a good amount, too, but not that much. If you're into being a therapist, check out a Masters level degree, like an MSW or an MFT (just as examples).

I'd caution against basing your decisions on this board alone but I'd encourage you to get as many facts as possible before making your decision. Some people will say, "Yeah, it's awesome!" and some will say, "OMG, life sucks!" They have different circumstances than you will. Just know what you can definitely expect (65k salary as a psychologist) and you've got a good basis for making a decision.

 

[4410]

Most of the posters on this website have a complaint or gripe about whatever. If you try to post something positive you get attacked. It is the misery loves company syndrome. I would gather that the majority of psychology students would not waste their valuable time on a website such as this website.

Take a vacation from the website and certainly do not base any of your life decisions on information from this website. It is normal to second guess or have buyers remorse. If you are accepted and admitted into a doctoral level clinical psychology program, you are worthy and I would give yourself a million kisses and tackle all of the obstacles in front of you. Websites such as this has a gang mentality and if you are doing well they try to bring you down to their level.

 

[Sanman]

You cannot take what we say as the only truth. There are many happy people in this and other professions. Check out the salary surveys available through the APA and other sources. I would up the number DDG gave and and say that salaries for the the middle 50% of psychologists (throughout the years) ranged from $56-133K with most making anywhere from $70-90k for the bulk of their career. This is from the APA (2009) salary survey:

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/figure-05.pdf

Look at other numbers and talk to others. To some, these numbers are a horror while to others they are wonderful. Whether you have debt and want to live in NYC/Cali or the midwest/south is also a consideration as salaries are largely static regardless of area. Good luck!

 

[Ya Ya]

Most of the posters on this website have a complaint or gripe about whatever. If you try to post something positive you get attacked. It is the misery loves company syndrome. I would gather that the majority of psychology students would not waste their valuable time on a website such as this website.

Take a vacation from the website and certainly do not base any of your life decisions on information from this website. It is normal to second guess or have buyers remorse. If you are accepted and admitted into a doctoral level clinical psychology program, you are worthy and I would give yourself a million kisses and tackle all of the obstacles in front of you. Websites such as this has a gang mentality and if you are doing well they try to bring you down to their level.

I guess we're all entitled to our opinions but saying that there's a "gang mentality" is a bit much. If you want to see someone get ripped a new one go to the Chronicle or even the medical forums on SDN.

 

[678886]

Most of the posters on this website have a complaint or gripe about whatever. If you try to post something positive you get attacked. It is the misery loves company syndrome. I would gather that the majority of psychology students would not waste their valuable time on a website such as this website.

Take a vacation from the website and certainly do not base any of your life decisions on information from this website. It is normal to second guess or have buyers remorse. If you are accepted and admitted into a doctoral level clinical psychology program, you are worthy and I would give yourself a million kisses and tackle all of the obstacles in front of you. Websites such as this has a gang mentality and if you are doing well they try to bring you down to their level.

This is pretty harsh. The vast majority of what I've seen on this site is people being supportive and reassuring to those who are freaking out... much like this thread itself. We shouldn't have to tell someone not to make a life decision based on a website.

dcc777: What did the current students at your interview say?? The ones I spoke to at the institution I chose to accept were genuinely very happy with the program and their choice to attend. Those are the kind of testimonials that are of value in your particular situation. I'm sure you can get an email address of a student in your program if you want to ask them.

 

[ToneTone]

Dcc777, I can relate. I am awaiting decisions right now and can say the other thread about regrets definitely freaked me out too! That along with the general agreement on the board is that taking out $100k in debt for a Psyd program may not be the best choice has me wondering if I should take a few more years off to explore research...then I think what if I dislike it and can't get into a funded program? I live in a super therapist/psychologist saturated big city but am willing to move to the suburbs and put in more volunteer and improve my other language if that's what it means to be employed. Unfortunately, it seems as if hard work these days doesn't necessarily = payoff and I've experienced that disappointment before as an undergrad in a different competitive field and it hurts. Of course, I may not get in this round at all and that will hurt too heh.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I guess we're all entitled to our opinions but saying that there's a "gang mentality" is a bit much. If you want to see someone get ripped a new one go to the Chronicle or even the medical forums on SDN.

Agreed. There are perhaps one or two posters who regularly mention their general disillusionment regarding the field, but I certainly wouldn't call it a "gang mentality" that fosters negativism. There are just as many, if not more, positive and supportive posts in the "do you regret it" thread (and elsewhere) as there are gripes. And even then, much of the griping is tied to relevant difficulties the field is facing.

To the OP: as another poster mentioned, don't let the musings listed in an online forum solely make (or even significantly alter) major life decisions. There are many individuls in the field who greatly enjoy their work, and then there are of course others who do not. This is true of any profession. Gather as much evidence as you can (with this forum representing perhaps one source of such evidence among many), ask around amongst current practitioners and/or researchers, and go from there.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I am a current student in a fully funded PhD program. I have not applied for internship yet but I can provide you with what I have witnessed so far.

How do you decide where to go for internship? Is it much like applying to graduate school? Are you paid? How much(little) are you paid? It seems as though most people get accepted no where near their graduate institution.

Decisions are decisions, you weigh your options and make the decision that is best for you. You look for internships you like and that match your experiences and goals. The stats are you there, if you are geographically restricted you have less of a chance to get an internships. That effect seems to decline with PhD programs and is more prevalent in PsyD (mostly the large ones).

All APA accred internships are paid. The salaries range but the average seems is in the low 20s. Unaccred internships are not always paid (I recommend avoiding non-APA internships).

In my program, we seems to get at least a person every year that stays local for internships but most go elsewhere. Until this year, most received their first or second choice internship.

After 1 year of internship, do you HAVE to do a post-doc? If not, what's the other option? How do you find a place in which to do a post-doc? Are you basically guaranteed to have to move yet again? How much does one get paid? And how long must you be there? What kind of work might one be doing?

You do not have to do anything. Most people do a post-doc. In that sense, if you want to practice you need a year of supervised work before you can get licensed. If you want an academic job will likely need that time to beef up your CV. How do you find it? Just like any job, look at classifieds in the field, listservs, etc. I have found that most of the students from my program seem to stay in the area that they do their internships but many move. I am not sure about salaries. Length of post doc will differ greatly. Most people stick to 1-2 years of post doc and move on.

What comes after that???

Life. Just like anything. You applied to grad programs. You will apply to internships. Then most likely apply for post-doc jobs. And then apply for work or change your life and start an organic farm, whatever you choose.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Speaking to postdoc pay: some start out at only slightly more than internship (i.e., high-20's), while others that I've seen approach $50k/year. Some may even pay more, but I didn't see any in my searches. In general, academic medical centers tend to pay a bit less than the VA for postdoc (the former seem to average in the mid- to high-30's, while the latter averages in the low-40's, give or take). Informal postdocs can run the gamut and will depend in large part on the contract you are able to negotiate/sign.

With respect to whether or not you HAVE to do postdoc, as DynamicDidactic mentioned, no one's going to force you to do anything at that point (other than most state licensing boards requiring some form of supervised post-doctoral supervision for the first year). If you want to pursue boarding in certain specialities (e.g., neuropsych, forensics), postdoc is required. In academia (again as DynamicDidactic mentioned), a postdoc year or two is often very helpful in building your CV, but it's not an absolute necessity.

 

[4410]

I guess we're all entitled to our opinions but saying that there's a "gang mentality" is a bit much. If you want to see someone get ripped a new one go to the Chronicle or even the medical forums on SDN.

I went throught the medical forum and actually it seemed much more positive. Nothing mentioned about Match rate, rejection threads, or negativism directed toward AMA. Nothing about how DO are incompetent or that these programs are flooding the market.

I am interested in medical psychology in Louisiana where I am moving for my internship. Thank you for steering me towards these other forums as my eyes are opened to new adventures besides the PsyD/PhD forum.

I just read a thread about nontraditonal path to MD and another thread about age limits to begin med school and some indicated that students in their 40's or early 50's often do well based on life experiences and knowledge about specialty whereas younger students my decide later on what area they want to specialize.

The premedical and medical forums are much more positive than the PsyD/PhD forums. No negativism about different training programs, APA versus non APA accredited, no imbalance threads, no protest threads at APA..etc...

On second thought, I regret not going into pre-med and med school after reading the premed and medical student forums. Maybe PsyD/PhD forum could learn something from our medical student brothers and sisters.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I went throught the medical forum and actually it seemed much more positive. Nothing mentioned about Match rate, rejection threads, or negativism directed toward AMA. Nothing about how DO are incompetent or that these programs are flooding the market.

I am interested in medical psychology in Louisiana where I am moving for my internship. Thank you for steering me towards these other forums as my eyes are opened to new adventures besides the PsyD/PhD forum.

I just read a thread about nontraditonal path to MD and another thread about age limits to begin med school and some indicated that students in their 40's or early 50's often do well based on life experiences and knowledge about specialty whereas younger students my decide later on what area they want to specialize.

The premedical and medical forums are much more positive than the PsyD/PhD forums. No negativism about different training programs, APA versus non APA accredited, no imbalance threads, no protest threads at APA..etc...

On second thought, I regret not going into pre-med and med school after reading the premed and medical student forums. Maybe PsyD/PhD forum could learn something from our medical student brothers and sisters.

The pre-med forums here seem to be fairly notorious for the lashing out that occurs against posters for asking "stupid questions."

As for the other factors your mentioned, part of the reason those issues aren't raised in the med student forums are because the AMA has done a much better job of regulating the field and enacting/ensuring universal training standards than has APA. You'll frequently see mention of the "physician shortage" that some purport the AMA and medical schools actively maintain in order to, among other things, protect the viability of the profession by reducing market saturation. Part of this occurs by limiting the number of accredited training programs, protecting admissions standards against erosion, guaranteeing consistency across training programs and degree types (i.e., MD and DO), and continually evaluating qualifying exams to attempt to ensure the competence of practitioners (e.g., via the USMLE Steps and the like). While psychology has made strides recently, we're still relatively new to the world of service provision (at least with respect to medicine), and APA hasn't done a very good job thus far on many of the aforementioned fronts.

All in all, I agree with the general sentiment that there are many things psychology could learn from medicine, particularly with respect to advocating for our own professional interests and protecting scope of coverage.

However, if you haven't yet seen threads in various medical forums (SDN's included) complaining about declining reimbursement rates, mid-level encroachment (i.e., NPs, PAs), negativism directed toward specific training programs (e.g., FMGs), and the like, then you probably haven't looked hard enough.

Personally, I don't find the psych forums to be particularly negativistic. There's some doomsaying to be sure, but in general, I find the atmosphere to be supportive; we just don't want to sugarcoat things when doing so could be detrimental.

 

[psychRA]

I took several years off after undergrad, worked in a couple of different hospitals, and met a TON of psychologists over the years. Now that I'm headed to internship next year, my opinion hasn't changed: if you want to be a psychologist, grad school is what you have to do to get you where you want to go. It isn't always fun (though I mostly loved it), it's almost never easy, and there will be days when you question whether you made the right decision. In short, it's just like any other field that requires an advanced degree.

Yes, applying for internship is miserable - it's basically like applying for grad school all over again. And yes, you'll probably (though not definitely) have to move. Moving is not the end of the world. I have a partner who works in an unrelated field, and I get that packing up and heading to another state is not ideal. But again, it's what you (may) have to do to get you where you want to go. It's not the end of the world, either for grad school or for internship. After being lucky enough to get a free PhD, I really can't complain about having to move, and I'm looking forward to being somewhere new, though I understand that everyone has their own experience.

I've never seriously regretted going into the field. I want to be a psychologist, because being a psychologist is awesome - and this is based on what I know from people who are already working in that field, not people in my program in grad school, who just went through the same insane internship application process that I did. I'm really lucky to be where I am.

 

[paramour]

The pre-med forums here seem to be fairly notorious for the lashing out that occurs against posters for asking "stupid questions."

As for the other factors your mentioned, part of the reason those issues aren't raised in the med student forums are because the AMA has done a much better job of regulating the field and enacting/ensuring universal training standards than has APA. You'll frequently see mention of the "physician shortage" that some purport the AMA and medical schools actively maintain in order to, among other things, protect the viability of the profession by reducing market saturation. Part of this occurs by limiting the number of accredited training programs, protecting admissions standards against erosion, guaranteeing consistency across training programs and degree types (i.e., MD and DO), and continually evaluating qualifying exams to attempt to ensure the competence of practitioners (e.g., via the USMLE Steps and the like). While psychology has made strides recently, we're still relatively new to the world of service provision (at least with respect to medicine), and APA hasn't done a very good job thus far on many of the aforementioned fronts.

All in all, I agree with the general sentiment that there are many things psychology could learn from medicine, particularly with respect to advocating for our own professional interests and protecting scope of coverage.

However, if you haven't yet seen threads in various medical forums (SDN's included) complaining about declining reimbursement rates, mid-level encroachment (i.e., NPs, PAs), negativism directed toward specific training programs (e.g., FMGs), and the like, then you probably haven't looked hard enough.

Personally, I don't find the psych forums to be particularly negativistic. There's some doomsaying to be sure, but in general, I find the atmosphere to be supportive; we just don't want to sugarcoat things when doing so could be detrimental.

+1.

I ran across the SDN psych forums from my initial lurking of the pre-med forums. If you think they're all happy go-lucky supportive of all who come round, then you haven't been around long enough or haven't browsed through enough threads.

I love those guys & gals. They make for great entertainment, and they don't tend to take **** from the folks who post "WAMC: I have a 2.0 (or below) GPA, no experience, and abysmal scores--but I'm applying to only top-ranked programs" on a regular basis. Oh, nevermind, I'll apply to the Caribbean this year, sooo I have a chance, right? 🙄

 

[Sanman]

+1.

I ran across the SDN psych forums from my initial lurking of the pre-med forums. If you think they're all happy go-lucky supportive of all who come round, then you haven't been around long enough or haven't browsed through enough threads.

I love those guys & gals. They make for great entertainment, and they don't tend to take **** from the folks who post "WAMC: I have a 2.0 (or below) GPA, no experience, and abysmal scores--but I'm applying to only top-ranked programs" on a regular basis. Oh, nevermind, I'll apply to the Caribbean this year, sooo I have a chance, right? 🙄

I have to agree with this as well. I actually started out on this forum as a pre-med before I ever considered a career in psychology. There is plenty of infighting (different specialties) and outfighting (PA and NP) for turf. Many physicians have to move for residency and must do so for more than one year. Remember, their residency match is the same as our internship match.If you don't go to a good school and get good grades/board scores, those competitive specialties are out for you. So, if you had your heart set on dermatology, radiology, ENT, and you don't match your years of med school were for nothing. You may only match in the middle of nowhere and have to spend 3+ years there. Not to mention, they are abused in residency worse than most anyone is on internship and post-doc in out field. It is very easy to pick out the faults in our field see only the good in another when you have only experienced one of those fields.

Honestly though, I see our education levels as much more similar to other allied health professionals such as pharmacists (PharmD) and physical therapists (DPT) and the like. They take similar time to complete and make similar salaries to us. Physicians spend many more years making $40-50k for 80 hr weeks. The problem is that many in this field are left to their own devices more than others and those devices are not always profitable. You can spend 10 years becoming a psychoanalyst. It does not mean that anyone will pay you for psychoanalysis when you are done. My approach to grad school was much like many allied health professionals and it made a difference in my happiness. Very few psych grad programs will begin to tailor their curriculum and experiences to what the market is asking for with regard to professionals. There are still many programs steeped in psychoanalysis when it really is not a billable service. I have met fellow interns that lack anything more than the most basic assessment skills and then scramble to learn on internship when it is a much more billable service. Treat the career like what it is, a means to the job you want. Don't want a faculty position? You don't need a ton of publications. Grad GPA is fairly meaningless as long as you are doing about as well as most others in your class (say at least a 3.5). Yet I watched many colleagues kill themselves trying to a 4.0 gpa and get a ton of publications to keep 'their options open' when teaching experience comes in handy at many universities other than major research centers. Some food for thought.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

You cannot take what we say as the only truth. There are many happy people in this and other professions. Check out the salary surveys available through the APA and other sources. I would up the number DDG gave and and say that salaries for the the middle 50% of psychologists (throughout the years) ranged from $56-133K with most making anywhere from $70-90k for the bulk of their career. This is from the APA (2009) salary survey:

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/figure-05.pdf

Look at other numbers and talk to others. To some, these numbers are a horror while to others they are wonderful. Whether you have debt and want to live in NYC/Cali or the midwest/south is also a consideration as salaries are largely static regardless of area. Good luck!

Just wanted to say that my number came from the department of labor website and you can find a breakdown there. Most psychologists aren't members of the APA, so it's tricky to tell which number is more representative. But the DOL one is much lower, even at the upper percentiles.

 

[Sanman]

Just wanted to say that my number came from the department of labor website and you can find a breakdown there. Most psychologists aren't members of the APA, so it's tricky to tell which number is more representative. But the DOL one is much lower, even at the upper percentiles.

I believe the reason for that is that master's level school psychologists are grouped into that number and skew the average significantly. I like the APA numbers better because they give you an idea what you can expect by setting and years in practice.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

I believe the reason for that is that master's level school psychologists are grouped into that number and skew the average significantly. I like the APA numbers better because they give you an idea what you can expect by setting and years in practice.

You're right about masters level school psychs being included but I don't think that's the reason for the lower numbers. If you look here, you can see it broken up by industry/setting/etc. Educational settings aren't the lowest paying (and don't have a majority of psychologists): http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193031.htm Still impacts the median but not by much.

The APA numbers are helpful because they break it down in a lot of ways but they represent a minority of psychologists and it's tough to tell why someone would be in the APA and complete the survey. It's not a random sampling nor does it capture the whole population.

 

[Sanman]

You're right about masters level school psychs being included but I don't think that's the reason for the lower numbers. If you look here, you can see it broken up by industry/setting/etc. Educational settings aren't the lowest paying (and don't have a majority of psychologists): http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193031.htm Still impacts the median but not by much.

The APA numbers are helpful because they break it down in a lot of ways but they represent a minority of psychologists and it's tough to tell why someone would be in the APA and complete the survey. It's not a random sampling nor does it capture the whole population.

Looking at the breakdown by setting, there is only one setting listed as lower than the overall $65k average ($56k). Most settings seem like there are around $70k with some being significantly higher. I really don't like the breakdown on the data and would like to see breakdowns for clinical doctorates only. True that the APA salary survey does not cover everyone. However, where did the government get their numbers from? Are the OCS numbers estimates or actual data?