Hi non-trads! Introduction and some (possibly) different questions

[Y = bX+a]

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Greetings SDN, it's an honor to finally be making this post. To be honest, until a few weeks ago I thought I would never find the courage to take this step. I was hoping to share a bit about myself and my path to this point, and to ascertain other's thoughts on my current situation. I apologize in advance for the wall of text below, although I do truly appreciate any insights and guidance.
I suppose to begin I can briefly outline my path to this point to give a bit of context to my subsequent questions.

To cite my first brief intro post in the non-trad roll call forum, this is round two for me on SDN, I first joined this community over six years ago (under a different pseudonym) to seek guidance while I navigated the application process for my first doctoral degree, which was immensely beneficial at that time. I have been observing the non-trad forums for the past several years and now that I am nearing the end of my fellowship, have decided that now is the time to take this first step.

I’m a 30ish year old male who recently finished a doctoral degree in health psychology, and I am currently completing a clinical/research post-doc in psychosocial oncology. I have dedicated the most recent 1/3 of my life to furthering the understanding of human behavior and its impact on health, and both my clinical work and research are exclusively conducted in the context of academic medical centers (both acute care and outpatient medical settings), with a heavy focus on interdisciplinary translational research. I have incredible passion for the integration of medical and psychological science, and spend a great portion of my day working with my colleagues in medicine in both clinical and research capacities.

I am attempting to initiate this process from a neutral perspective hoping that my background won’t impact how I am perceived, although I am not sure if this is accurate. I am currently struggling with how to present myself and my background in a manner that is both informative and humble. Below I have listed some of my thoughts regarding my situation, as well as some of my statistics related to performance. Once again, I would like to thank anyone and everyone for any insights they may have.

Questions:

• Stats: uGPA 3.25, Masters GPA 3.71, Doctoral GPA 3.80. I have yet to take the MCAT.
  • Will my Masters GPA and Doctoral GPA be combined into one graduate GPA?
  • Will post-bacs for career changers enhance uGPA?
  • I have no science GPA at this time, this is only physics, chem, and bio courses correct?
• As I have been steeped in academia for the past 6 years I have accumulated an extensive history of clinical and research related activities in academic medical centers. Is there a maximum length to the CV one can submit for a medical school application? I currently have pared my CV down to 18 pages but fear this is too long. Unfortunately 8 pages of that are publications and presentations and there is no way to shorten them. Should I create a “representative publications” section while including all other publications in an appendix?
• To date I have several first author publications, have presented numerous lectures at national conferences, taught at a doctoral level (both psychology and as part of a medical school course), and have received ample grant funding over the past year. Almost all of my scholarly activity addresses very real medical issues (e.g., adherence, health beliefs and behavior change, factors impacting medical illness) and I was asked to co-found and serve as PI for a new medical psychology research lab at a major US university. Bluntly, does any of this matter as it is not “traditional” medical research?
• At the time of my application I will likely hold faculty appointments at the embedded medical school, university hospital, specialty medical center, and a four year university where I teach undergraduate through doctoral level course work. I am not sure how admissions committees will view the fact that I have actually been teaching medical school courses prior to applying to medical school myself. Thoughts?
• I volunteer much of my time to mentoring and providing academic support to undergraduate, masters, and doctoral level psychology students; as well as medical students (10+ hours a week). Does this count as an EC/volunteer experience or should I seek out something more formal?

I do have some more questions but don’t want to take this initial post too far as I already understand I have asked quite a bit. I am very excited to begin moving forward in the application process and look forward to any and all feedback. Know that I am inspired and humbled by the achievements of all who have walked this path before me, thank you for that inspiration.

Best regards,
Y = bX+a

 

[Cawolf]

Hello,

-Graduate GPA is one line (combined), but your entire coursework can be seen.
-Yes, career-changer post-bacs will likely include the prerequisite courses, which are undergraduate courses.
-BCPM: Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Math for science GPA (AMCAS)
-The application allows for 15 experiences. Take a look at the AMCAS instructions for further details. You can combine some things, but ultimately it is 15 sections of 700 characters; three of the sections allow for an additional 1,325 characters of "most meaningful" experiences. A CV is not included in the initial application though some secondaries may request one.

I am not informed enough to answer your last three questions.

Good luck.

 

[Goro]

MD normally don't consider graduate school grades, DO schools do.

• Will my Masters GPA and Doctoral GPA be combined into one graduate GPA?

Yes; the key is convincing Adcoms that you can handle medical school

• Will post-bacs for career changers enhance

I believe it is for MD; I think DO requires math (or vice versa!)

• Baylor REQUIRES college math, and recommends calculus. So, math will be a pre-req in places.

• • I have no science GPA at this time, this is only physics, chem, and bio courses correct?
• 
  
• 
  
• Probably
• Is there a maximum length to the CV one can submit for a medical school application? I currently have pared my CV down to 18 pages but fear this is too long. Unfortunately 8 pages of that are publications and presentations and there is no way to shorten them.
• Yes.
• Should I create a “representative publications” section while including all other publications in an appendix?
• 
  
• 
  
• Pubs are ALWAYS good!Bluntly, does any of this matter as it is not “traditional” medical research?
• At the time of my application I will likely hold faculty appointments at the embedded medical school, university hospital, specialty medical center, and a four year university where I teach undergraduate through doctoral level course work. I am not sure how admissions committees will view the fact that I have actually been teaching medical school courses prior to applying to medical school myself. Thoughts?

Sounds OK, but the key things you will need are shadowing and clinical volunteering. Non-clinical volunteering to show off your altruism and humanism is also needed. You app as of now sounds too academic.

• I volunteer much of my time to mentoring and providing academic support to undergraduate, masters, and doctoral level psychology students; as well as medical students (10+ hours a week). Does this count as an EC/volunteer experience or should I seek out something more formal?

 

[Meridian32]

Hi - I think it's impressive that you have done well enough in your career to have received a tenure track faculty job offer in a health sciences field (if I am reading your post correctly). I think this will be received well from a medical school admissions standpoint and there is no need to be humble about it. However, the question you will need to answer convincingly for admissions committees is why you are choosing to leave an independent investigator position to become a medical student. As you know, this is a very unusual switch. It's not that uncommon to go from health sciences Ph.D. or even postdoc to medical school, but getting to the independent investigator level indicates a significant level of success and commitment to the field on your part, as well as a significant investment in you - in startup funding, etc. - on your institution's part. The question will be why you are leaving all of this behind and you will need to have a very good answer.

 

[Y = bX+a]

Thanks Cawolf, Goro, and Meridian! Your responses have definitely given me many things to think about, and a more realistic outlook on the process. I know that this is going to be a marathon more than a sprint, and I am going to plan carefully to ensure that if I don't succeed it isn't due to a lack of effort. See below for more specific thoughts and elaboration on some points raised in your posts that might give some clarification or elaboration on my situation. Once again, any and all feedback is appreciated =).

@Cawolf Thank you for the information related to the AMCAS application, this is something that I wasn't aware of at my stage in the game and it will definitely help me to prepare adequately moving forward.

@Goro I appreciate your candid responses and value your feedback. To preface this elaboration, I have read many of your posts in other members threads and have more than frequently been helped by your insights. Your thoughtful responses, in addition to many other notable names I have observed over the years (e.g., @QofQuimica , @DrMidlife , @gonnif , and @Law2Doc among a long list of others), have been a major source of inspiration in providing me with the confidence to take this plunge. I know I am not the most competitive, though I will definitely give it my all.

I do have one further question regarding your final point and the clinical aspects of my work, specifically in relation to volunteering and shadowing. At present (and for the past several years) I have maintained a balance of approximately 70% clinical work (including clinical education for students who round with me), 15% research, and 15% dedicated teaching (which would be my ideal balance as a physician as well). I have around 5,000 hours logged as a student engaged in clinical practica in academic medical centers, and an additional 4,000 as a resident+fellow. By the time I apply I estimate a total of 15,000+ clinical hours spent in medical settings (both acute and outpatient), over 8,000 of which will be direct patient contact hours. Of those 8,000 I would estimate approximately 3,000 (more recently due to my increased autonomy as a fellow) were spent co-conducting consultations with physicians, leading physician teams addressing comorbid medical/psychiatric issues, and observing/rounding with physicians on cases we are both following (this is essentially shadowing). I do have about 30 hours of "traditional shadowing" as I would observe a psychiatrist in our crisis ER for partial overnights following my workday on some Fridays nearing the end of my residency. My experiences are spread across all hospital departments (expansive experience in level 1 trauma centers and cancer centers) as I have focused my career path on med psych consultation, mostly due to my absolute love for medicine.

The main reason for sharing this relates to what I have seen described before (and who knows if there is a real answer) regarding clinical volunteer work, in that folks on the forums have stated it's main purpose is to "show you know what you are getting into." At this point I do not want to assume that all of that time spent in medical settings automatically fits that bill, though I have spent more waking hours in hospitals with my physician colleagues over the past 5 years than I have anywhere else. I am still planning to volunteer for altruistic reasons in a non-clinical setting (I have always wanted to participate in a Big Brothers program), as well as in medical settings, though am more curious than anything how all that time I have spent in these settings might be viewed by people reading my application.

@Meridian32 Thank you for the kind words, and you are correct in your assumption. At this point I have actually turned down faculty positions at two other medical schools, which was both easy and difficult at the same time. In actuality, I didn't apply for the positions, one was through personal connections and the other one, which was more difficult to turn down, was the result of a dept chair listening to one of my lectures at a conference and contacting me afterwards. It would be unethical for me to accept either of these two positions without the intent to stay for the long haul. I have also not yet accepted the offer for the third position (Assistant Professor of Medicine, tenure track; with several tertiary appointments in different departments/specialty treatment centers) for the exact reasons you mentioned. What differs here is that I have strong personal connections with the third site and have notified the dept chair (when I was their student 5 years ago) that my ultimate plan is to pursue a career in medicine following the completion of my first doctoral degree. They have been nothing but supportive and offered me the position despite innumerable recent discussions about my career aspirations. In fact they are encouraging me to follow my passion (e.g., will give me flexible hours to attend post-bac courses, shadow, etc...), which makes the decision a little easier. Likewise, at the research lab I am currently a PI at, the co-founder was my residency supervisor and is equally supportive. Do you, or any others for that matter, think that letters of recommendations from these two individuals outlining this would help to offset any doubt related to why I might want to segue into physical medicine as compared to "psychological medicine?"

I do have many other thoughts related to motivation behind my decision to make this switch, although I just noticed the time and really need to get to bed 😴 (that and I have already written a lot and don't want to overstay my welcome). I am very happy to even be able to ask these questions as they are things I have been thinking about for many years. Thanks again to everyone, I look forward to your continued feedback.

Y

 

[Y = bX+a]

Hi all! Shameless bump to see if anyone has any additional thoughts on my most recent response. Section responding to Goro's feedback is what I am most interested hearing other's thoughts about, although as usual, any and all feedback is welcomed.

I know that bumping is generally not accepted as the best etiquette on forums, so after this I will be more than happy to let this topic fade into the forum netherworld.

Thanks in advance!

Y

 

[deleted480308]

Hi all! Shameless bump to see if anyone has any additional thoughts on my most recent response. Section responding to Goro's feedback is what I am most interested hearing other's thoughts about, although as usual, any and all feedback is welcomed.

I know that bumping is generally not accepted as the best etiquette on forums, so after this I will be more than happy to let this topic fade into the forum netherworld.

Thanks in advance!

Y

in the admissions world, you can generally assume goro is right...

 

[Y = bX+a]

Absolutely! I 100% agree based on my long time lurking and reviewing the countless posts which have helped others (which is one major reason why I bumped). Apologies if my post was misinterpreted, it was definitely not my intent to imply that the previous feedback was unhelpful.

Regarding the bump, I wasn't questioning the feedback that was already provided, more so wondering about the elaboration I provided to the initial point regarding my clinical experience and how it may be viewed compared to shadowing. Specifically, how the clinical hours I will have spent in medical settings as a medical psychologist working on integrated medical teams (15,000+ hours, likely 8,000 of which direct patient contact upon application submission) will be viewed in comparison to more traditional medical shadowing, which I have and will continue to do.

Thanks for the response, and hope that this helps to clarify my question.

Y

 

[xffan624]

Absolutely! I 100% agree based on my long time lurking and reviewing the countless posts which have helped others (which is one major reason why I bumped). Apologies if my post was misinterpreted, it was definitely not my intent to imply that the previous feedback was unhelpful.

Regarding the bump, I wasn't questioning the feedback that was already provided, more so wondering about the elaboration I provided to the initial point regarding my clinical experience and how it may be viewed compared to shadowing. Specifically, how the clinical hours I will have spent in medical settings as a medical psychologist working on integrated medical teams (15,000+ hours, likely 8,000 of which direct patient contact upon application submission) will be viewed in comparison to more traditional medical shadowing, which I have and will continue to do.

Thanks for the response, and hope that this helps to clarify my question.

Y

I think you have plenty of clinical experience. I'm still wondering why you want to leave a professional, academic career behind that you've done well in to go to medical school. You didn't really answer Meridian's question. That will be the main one ADCOM's ask. So you need to have a good answer to it.

 

[MedGuy67]

I wanted some advice. URM, disadvantaged, 3.46c, Non trad., In the healthcare field, 500 hours of community service and I'm going to start a MS/DO program this fall.

Now my question lol sorry.

I'm retaking the mcat in July and applying to both DO and MD schools. I'm not sure if I'll be ready by then and wondering if there is a big difference in pushing the mcat to August? Do you have in suggestions on schools I should consider on applying to?


I'll appreciate any of you guys opinions?

 

[deleted480308]

You said you were starting an ms/do program....am missing something?

 

[MedGuy67]

You said you were starting an ms/do program....am missing something?

lol yeah its contingent on me passing with a certain GPA during the MS phase and this is not my best choice of school. Admission for this school to also apply broadly although im in their program.

 

[deleted480308]

lol yeah its contingent on me passing with a certain GPA during the MS phase and this is not my best choice of school. Admission for this school to also apply broadly although im in their program.

3.4 urm? If you get a solid mcat you're reasonable at any DO and maybe some MD if you really kill it.

This is do or die though. You can't blow an smp or you prove you can't hang. Buckle down and make it happen...

 

[gyngyn]

I wanted some advice. URM, disadvantaged, 3.46c, Non trad., In the healthcare field, 500 hours of community service and I'm going to start a MS/DO program this fall.

Now my question lol sorry.

I'm retaking the mcat in July and applying to both DO and MD schools. I'm not sure if I'll be ready by then and wondering if there is a big difference in pushing the mcat to August? Do you have in suggestions on schools I should consider on applying to?


I'll appreciate any of you guys opinions?

You really need your own thread. This one is for OP.

 

[Y = bX+a]

I think you have plenty of clinical experience. I'm still wondering why you want to leave a professional, academic career behind that you've done well in to go to medical school. You didn't really answer Meridian's question. That will be the main one ADCOM's ask. So you need to have a good answer to it.

You really need your own thread. This one is for OP.

I appreciate all of your feedback @xffan624 and @futuremdforme, as well as your input @gyngyn

These are both really good points, and something which I have spent a considerable amount of time mulling over the past 5 years or so. I wasn't necessarily planning on unfolding my personal motivations in a public forum, though the one thing that I love about this site is the considerable honesty and transparency in many of the responses folks provide. The more feedback the better =).

@xffan624 , to cut to the essence of your point, I suppose it comes down to how one operationalizes "success." For me, I would be a fool to deny that I have been objectively successful from the standpoint of career opportunities and "achievements," although at the same time after considerable introspection I would have to appraise my subjective success at a much lower level. No matter how many articles I publish, lectures I deliver, or faculty appointments that I receive; I would not consider myself truly successful unless I have done all I can to follow my dreams, regardless the outcome.

While I absolutely love what I do in most senses, and truly believe that the field of medical psychology holds great promise related to the prevention of premature morbidity and mortality, while promoting overall wellness, it has become abundantly clear to me that I cannot stop here. When I first began engaging in both my clinical and academic work I often found that hours would pass by as I became excitedly engrossed in the sheer enormity of the human experience, most notably striving to further understand the biological bases of behavior and how illness, both biological and psychological, impacts an individual's systems (I especially love assisting with medically unexplained illness cases). As time progressed that wasn't enough and I began to spend more time with my physician colleagues (luckily I have trained in academic medical centers so the attending physicians were often very open to teaching me), immersing myself in their world and gaining a greater appreciation for the nuances of their practice. Then it struck me, even though I may have spent 16 or more hours at work, when I left the hospital and finally arrived home, I was truly happy. This being said, I am the first to acknowledge that happiness in and of itself is not enough; what is more important is that I was intellectually stimulated and excited to learn more and more about anything I could get my hands on (lucky for me, unlucky for my wife, that I have access to numerous medical libraries 😛). Voraciously consuming literature and seeking out knowledge (grand rounds, coursera.org, online lectures, etc...) to expand my database, so to speak. Even now, I aspire to engage in scholarly activity, be it reading or writing, approximately 2 to 6 hours in the evening after returning from work; ending most nights physically exhausted but intellectually invigorated.

To this extent, I was lucky enough to have two attending supervisors as I progressed through the formative years of my career (one of whom is my present supervisor and dept chair) who encouraged that exploration and always challenged me. They helped me to understand that it may be possible to continue to evolve my career by pursuing formal medical training, and allowed me to integrate as many experiences as I could that would be readily translatable into the practice of physical medicine.

This is a good point. Are you really willing to go from being faculty to being a student? I'm moving to medicine from private industry, but accepting the drop in responsibility is harder than I anticipated when I first decided to go down this path 2 years ago.

I think the final part of my response can both be applied to @futuremdforme 's point as well as a nice closing to my response to @xffan624 . I have taken a pretty different approach to my transition to faculty as I am of the firm belief that no matter what title we have or how much we already know, there is always room to learn more. I have always tried to surround myself with people who I feel are much more bright than I, and see each day as an opportunity to learn more about something new. Regardless of whether or not I am ever again formally designated as a student, I think that I will always strive to live my life as one. Perhaps I am overly romantic in this sense, and I definitely understand the point as raised by @futuremdforme , which is one reason why I want to try to attempt to make this shift earlier in my career prior to having more time to adjust to life as an attending (not having to have someone co-sign my notes is going to be so nice!). @futuremdforme as you began this process about 2 years ago I am sure you have a considerable amount of knowledge on just beginning the process itself, would it be OK for me to PM you with some questions?

Thanks to all posters to this point, I would really appreciate on anyone's reactions to the above. Obviously I will need to find a way to present this as the foundation for my personal statement (with far fewer adjectives!) as I progress through the process and would love any feedback about whether or not this makes sense.

Ever grateful,

Regression

 

[Dral]

First off, not trying to be a jerk, but medical doctors are concise. You are not. While what you say is enjoyable to read, it quickly turns into TL;DR. I'm guessing your 18 page CV can easily be trimmed.

I was complimented numerous times on the residency interview trail (both content and length) for my 3/4 of a page personal statement. Concise = nice.

Your UG GPA is a little low for MD if that is what you want.

I obtained a PhD prior to matriculation. Just be aware that it can serve as both a blessing and a curse. Ad coms have different expectations from people with graduate work, as touched upon already in this thread.

 

[Goro]

I don't get the sense that all of your clinical work has answered these questions, which Adcoms will want to know:
Do you know what you're getting into?
Do you know what a doctor's day is like? Not all doctors have days like Psychiatrists.
Do you really want to be around sick and injured people, and their families, for the next 30 years??????? Have you actually interacted with patients?
Have you done anything yet to display your altruism?

If you're going to answer, be concise!


source of inspiration in providing me with the confidence to take this plunge. I know I am not the most competitive, though I will definitely give it my all.

I do have one further question regarding your final point and the clinical aspects of my work, specifically in relation to volunteering and shadowing. At present (and for the past several years) I have maintained a balance of approximately 70% clinical work (including clinical education for students who round with me), 15% research, and 15% dedicated teaching (which would be my ideal balance as a physician as well). I have around 5,000 hours logged as a student engaged in clinical practica in academic medical centers, and an additional 4,000 as a resident+fellow. By the time I apply I estimate a total of 15,000+ clinical hours spent in medical settings (both acute and outpatient), over 8,000 of which will be direct patient contact hours. Of those 8,000 I would estimate approximately 3,000 (more recently due to my increased autonomy as a fellow) were spent co-conducting consultations with physicians, leading physician teams addressing comorbid medical/psychiatric issues, and observing/rounding with physicians on cases we are both following (this is essentially shadowing). I do have about 30 hours of "traditional shadowing" as I would observe a psychiatrist in our crisis ER for partial overnights following my workday on some Fridays nearing the end of my residency. My experiences are spread across all hospital departments (expansive experience in level 1 trauma centers and cancer centers) as I have focused my career path on med psych consultation, mostly due to my absolute love for medicine.

The main reason for sharing this relates to what I have seen described before (and who knows if there is a real answer) regarding clinical volunteer work, in that folks on the forums have stated it's main purpose is to "show you know what you are getting into." At this point I do not want to assume that all of that time spent in medical settings automatically fits that bill, though I have spent more waking hours in hospitals with my physician colleagues over the past 5 years than I have anywhere else. I am still planning to volunteer for altruistic reasons in a non-clinical setting (I have always wanted to participate in a Big Brothers program), as well as in medical settings, though am more curious than anything how all that time I have spent in these settings might be viewed by people reading my application.

@Meridian32 Thank you for the kind words, and you are correct in your assumption. At this point I have actually turned down faculty positions at two other medical schools, which was both easy and difficult at the same time. In actuality, I didn't apply for the positions, one was through personal connections and the other one, which was more difficult to turn down, was the result of a dept chair listening to one of my lectures at a conference and contacting me afterwards. It would be unethical for me to accept either of these two positions without the intent to stay for the long haul. I have also not yet accepted the offer for the third position (Assistant Professor of Medicine, tenure track; with several tertiary appointments in different departments/specialty treatment centers) for the exact reasons you mentioned. What differs here is that I have strong personal connections with the third site and have notified the dept chair (when I was their student 5 years ago) that my ultimate plan is to pursue a career in medicine following the completion of my first doctoral degree. They have been nothing but supportive and offered me the position despite innumerable recent discussions about my career aspirations. In fact they are encouraging me to follow my passion (e.g., will give me flexible hours to attend post-bac courses, shadow, etc...), which makes the decision a little easier. Likewise, at the research lab I am currently a PI at, the co-founder was my residency supervisor and is equally supportive. Do you, or any others for that matter, think that letters of recommendations from these two individuals outlining this would help to offset any doubt related to why I might want to segue into physical medicine as compared to "psychological medicine?"

I do have many other thoughts related to motivation behind my decision to make this switch, although I just noticed the time and really need to get to bed 😴 (that and I have already written a lot and don't want to overstay my welcome). I am very happy to even be able to ask these questions as they are things I have been thinking about for many years. Thanks again to everyone, I look forward to your continued feedback.

Y[/QUOTE]

 

[runnergal]

First off, not trying to be a jerk, but medical doctors are concise. You are not. While what you say is enjoyable to read, it quickly turns into TL;DR. I'm guessing your 18 page CV can easily be trimmed.

I was complimented numerous times on the residency interview trail (both content and length) for my 3/4 of a page personal statement. Concise = nice.

Your UG GPA is a little low for MD if that is what you want.

I obtained a PhD prior to matriculation. Just be aware that it can serve as both a blessing and a curse. Ad coms have different expectations from people with graduate work, as touched upon already in this thread.

Can you clarify on "different expectations"? I thought all the same evaluation on ugrad work/post bacc work, MCAT, ECs, and activities displaying altruism? Anything else I am missing?

 

[Dral]

People straight out of undergrad get to say their version of why medicine and move on. PhDs have to convince adcoms of the same but also need to prove that they are not just switching over to medicine because of greener pastures. This carries over to residency interviews as well.