hidden job market

[oldfatman]

The hidden job market is mostly a myth. There really aren't that many pathology jobs out there. Networking (begging strangers) does not work.

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[Alteran]

Yes and no. There is a hidden job market out there. But unless you are specifically and uniquely contacted by a prospective employer, usually someone who knows you personally or you've worked with before, then it doesn't exist for you. And that's pretty much the vast majority of pathology graduates.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Pathologists are like "runners" from Logan's Run talking about Sanctuary, which doesn't exist. 🙂

If you don't have friends in the business, you are swimming upstream for sure. There are jobs that open up but never advertised. We have never advertised any jobs but just call up unhappy friends, which are plentiful.

Make as many friends as you can. Learn chinese and buy a turban to cover more bases.

 

[gbwillner]

Pathologists are like "runners" from Logan's Run talking about Sanctuary, which doesn't exist. 🙂

If you don't have friends in the business, you are swimming upstream for sure. There are jobs that open up but never advertised. We have never advertised any jobs but just call up unhappy friends, which are plentiful.

Make as many friends as you can. Learn chinese and buy a turban to cover more bases.

As much as I love Logan's Run... why not move on for fresher analogies? Soylent Green, Omega Man, Planet of the Apes are all available for you- and that's all just within the Charlton Heston collection.

 

[gbwillner]

It all depends on what kind of job you are looking for. If an academic job, you need connections to the hiring chair. That can be your faculty that are his/her buddies (or know them directly). It would also help a lot to have a good academic record- publishing, teaching, etc. If you want a private job, then you need to know the hiring pathologists, or have faculty that are their buddies that can open the door for you.

Example- I am now hiring a pathologist (with a very specific skill set- no CVs please) .
Step 1: contact my buddies that I know are qualified.
Step 2: Ask them if they know qualified candidates that I can contact.
Step 3: Ask the program directors I know at top institutions about their graduating fellows and see if they are qualified.
Step 4: post a specific ad only in a place a qualified applicant might see it.
Step 5: (I hope not to need to get here) hire a recruiter.
...
Step 6: post broadly (like pathologyoutlines). I want to avoid this because I know I will get flooded with CVs, of which only 1-5% will be qualified applicants.

 

[Over9000]

Can someone safely assume that if a job is posted on pathoutlines that it probably isn't a very good job?

 

[gbwillner]

Can someone safely assume that if a job is posted on pathoutlines that it probably isn't a very good job?

No- I don't think so. If I were a recruiter or a hospital network looking for an AP/CP pathologist, I may not have then time or necessary contacts to find the right person on my own, and may rely on such a service to cast a wide net to trim down later. That doesn't mean that it's a bad job, necessarily. I've seen postings for industry positions as well, because the hiring managers didn't know where else to go. Also, sometimes HR is forced, by regulations, to make job ads available to the public, although they have no intention of hiring anyone from said ads and will rely on their recruiters to find the right candidates. May sound weird, but I've seen this happen. When this happens applicants are better off NOT responding to the ad, even if they are qualified. The issue is that, if they respond to the ad, they will be ignored; and the recruiter cannot make money off of you so they will not help you since they did not introduce you to the company.

 

[AZpath]

No- I don't think so. If I were a recruiter or a hospital network looking for an AP/CP pathologist, I may not have then time or necessary contacts to find the right person on my own, and may rely on such a service to cast a wide net to trim down later. That doesn't mean that it's a bad job, necessarily. I've seen postings for industry positions as well, because the hiring managers didn't know where else to go. Also, sometimes HR is forced, by regulations, to make job ads available to the public, although they have no intention of hiring anyone from said ads and will rely on their recruiters to find the right candidates. May sound weird, but I've seen this happen. When this happens applicants are better off NOT responding to the ad, even if they are qualified. The issue is that, if they respond to the ad, they will be ignored; and the recruiter cannot make money off of you so they will not help you since they did not introduce you to the company.

Not every small groups has good contacts in academic centers.

My last job was great. I had it for ten years and found it through the CAP job service.
I am the head of a small private group currently and I found it via pathology outlines a few years ago.

The "old boy network" didn't do much for me over my career.

It especially fails if you looking for a job in another city or state.

 

[gbwillner]

Not every small groups has good contacts in academic centers.

My last job was great. I had it for ten years and found it through the CAP job service.
I am the head of a small private group currently and I found it via pathology outlines a few years ago.

The "old boy network" didn't do much for me over my career.

It especially fails if you looking for a job in another city or state.

It certainly has more weight in Academia, for sure. At my last institution I did see it used from private groups as well. I agree with your statement about moving out of state- I think there are only a handful of programs that will have a wide enough network to really help in that case. For local jobs networking can be as simple as joining the local city/state path organizations, and strike up conversations. But I did not mean to imply that there is anything wrong with a job because it is posted on such forums.

 

[Euchromatin]

Also, sometimes HR is forced, by regulations, to make job ads available to the public, although they have no intention of hiring anyone from said ads and will rely on their recruiters to find the right candidates.

I think this is particularly true for university-associated groups and also explains why you occasionally see ridiculously specific ads for people with multiple fellowships/expertise in some weird combination of areas - the ad is tailored to one person the group already knows they want to hire, but they are forced to publicly advertise it due to HR regs at their institution.

 

[Euchromatin]

Step 4: post a specific ad only in a place a qualified applicant might see it.

Not sure what "place" you mean? In a journal that only people interested in a particular subspecialty area would routinely read? Or at a conference that only people interested in a particular subspecialty area would routinely attend? Super secret website that only "qualified applicants" are allowed to know about (snicker)?

 

[gbwillner]

Not sure what "place" you mean? In a journal that only people interested in a particular subspecialty area would routinely read? Or at a conference that only people interested in a particular subspecialty area would routinely attend? Super secret website that only "qualified applicants" are allowed to know about (snicker)?

It's the super secret website for only AMGs from Ivy league schools. I can get you in, but I take payment only in gold bullion.

/actually it can be a message board/listserv journal of the subspecialty you require. So if I wanted to hire hematopathologist, I would post in ASH/Blood before I would post in pathologyoutlines. But that's just me. It certainly lowers sensitivity but increases specificity, which is good when considering your time.

 

[coroner]

The hidden job market is mostly a myth. There really aren't that many pathology jobs out there. Networking (begging strangers) does not work.

Depends what your definition of "hidden". If you're saying private practice, partnership track jobs that are lucrative with an excellent vacation/benefits package and a history of minimal turnover because the positions are so great but people never hear of them or they don't exist, then I partially disagree. They are out there; but, such jobs are not advertised and few people know of them when they do open up, i.e. hidden. These kind of positions are almost always found via word of mouth. They just may be a little hard to come by because nobody wants to give these positions up and old timers keep working into their 70's.

Can someone safely assume that if a job is posted on pathoutlines that it probably isn't a very good job?

Not necessarily. Like any job out there, you're going to have your duds, and a few gems. If you then take into account all job postings, they're going to have a mix. I have interviewed at advertised jobs and know colleagues who landed positions in some of these as well and I would say they ranged from good to average to not-so-good. The more desirable ones are harder to come by whether advertised or unadvertised, that's why they're the gems...

When this happens applicants are better off NOT responding to the ad, even if they are qualified. The issue is that, if they respond to the ad, they will be ignored...

But how would an outside applicant know to not respond to the ad and the position is going to be filled by an internal candidate only?

Make as many friends as you can. Learn chinese and buy a turban to cover more bases.

I heard Diping Wang is looking for a job. I guess he should do fine...

 

[2121115]

Just check any state, on a state by state basis, and look at the number of pathology residency spots per year in that state. For most states there are about 2-3 times as many pathology residency grads each year as there are job openings.

 

[yaah]

Eh, I think you're overblowing it. There are definitely a lot of jobs that are not advertised.

But other posts are right, if you do advertise you get a lot of applicants. The problem is is that majority are unqualified for the position or have significant red flags in their application. I don't know why this is, but there are unqualified people looking for positions.

I know of I think 5-6 jobs private jobs (not counting academic jobs because a lot of these are niche) locally in the past year or so that have opened up. I saw an ad for I think two of these. I doubt this is the only place where this happens. Academic jobs have to advertise. Other types don't have to. Last time we hired we discussed whether to advertise, we ended up deciding to advertise after looking around locally to gauge interest. But other groups near me did not advertise. It can depend on circumstances.

 

[Sulfinator]

There are definitely a lot of jobs that are not advertised . . . Academic jobs have to advertise. Other types don't have to. Last time we hired we discussed whether to advertise, we ended up deciding to advertise after looking around locally to gauge interest. But other groups near me did not advertise. It can depend on circumstances.

I think this is about right, based on my experience in talking with local groups in the vicinity of my residency and fellowship programs. For what it's worth, the job that I will start in a few weeks will be, I think, a pretty darn good job. And it was an advertised position.

 

[icpshootyz]

The job I landed was never advertised. The group had reached out to the local academic centers (there are many) and had contacted a recruiting firm to reach out further, but there was no published ad anywhere for the job.