Highest paying mid-level (not including CRNA's)

[Hinglish]

Hey guys,
I'm just interested (pure curiosity) which mid-level has the highest income/income potential. I have heard that Psychiatric NP's can make upwards of 150k. I'm not sure if that is true or not though.

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[AUS4]

Seems interesting but unsure of future job market

 

[lapelirroja]

I dont think thats a midlevel, and other "midlevels" make more than CPs.

 

[core0]

Hey guys,
I'm just interested (pure curiosity) which mid-level has the highest income/income potential. I have heard that Psychiatric NP's can make upwards of 150k. I'm not sure if that is true or not though.

There aren't any good surveys. Advance for NPs is probably the best:
http://nurse-practitioners.advanceweb.com/editorial/content/editorial.aspx?cc=105177&CP=2
They list the average salary around $83k. I'm guessing this is a bimodal distribution with a lot of county mental health NPs making not very much and a few NPs in private practice making a lot. You probably can make $150k as a mental health NP but its rare. Outside of CRNA and AA probably the best paying NPP job would be CVS PA. Average is around $110k.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[powerade]

PAs make similar salaries compare to NPs.

US Bureau of Labor Stats 2008:
Physician Assistants $39.05 (median hourly) $39.24(mean hourly) $81,610(mean annual)

 

[prairiedog]

I dont think thats a midlevel, and other "midlevels" make more than CPs.

I would think some optometrists make 150+

 

[deleted6669]

PAs make similar salaries compare to NPs.

US Bureau of Labor Stats 2008:
Physician Assistants $39.05 (median hourly) $39.24(mean hourly) $81,610(mean annual)

Their stats are generally lower than actual. better stats based on actual pa salaries can be found at advance for pa's. they post them yearly by specialty and area. last yr the avg pa made around 86k or so but many specialty pa's made > 100 k in em/surg/derm/ortho.
here are the current #s: ( keep in mind this counts anyone who works at least 32 hrs/week and includes new grads as well as senior pa's so a senior pa working in any given specialty typically makes more than the avg.- for example in my em group of 12 pa's the salary range is 110-200k/yr- the guy at 200k works a decent amount of overtime but some folks in the 150k range don't work any overtime.)

In its 2008 census report, the American Academy of Physician Assistants reported mean total income (MTI) from primary employer for clinically practicing PAs working at least 32 hours per week. ADVANCE compiled this chart using data from AAPA's individual specialty reports.

Specialty MTI
Cardiovascular/Cardiothoracic surgery $110,468
Dermatology $104,474
Emergency medicine $99,635
Neurosurgery $98,024
Critical care medicine $96,984
Radiology $95,214
Orthopedics $94,916
Anesthesiology $93,370
Plastic surgery $92,633
Occupational medicine $92,323
Trauma surgery $91,417
Urology $90,462
General surgery $90,094
Pain management $89,059
Cardiology $87,812
Hospital medicine $87,550
Otorhinolaryngology $86,856
Geriatrics $85,973
Psychiatry $85,361
General internal medicine $85,076
Addiction medicine $84,627
Oncology $84,336
Gastroenterology $84,268
Family medicine $84,173
Pediatrics $83,021
Neurology $81,762
Allergy/Immunology $81,557
Public health $81,387
Rheumatology $81,224
Nephrology $80,842
Obstetrics/Gynecology $79,229
Endocrinology $78,956

 

[deleted6669]

I would think some optometrists make 150+

also not a midlevel. optometrists have a terminal doctorate, the only degree available in the field ( O.D., The terminal degree in optometry).
podiatrists also are not midlevels.
"midlevel"= pa, np, crna, aa, cnm(midwife) and in some settings cns(clinical nurse specialist). these folks are still midlevels if they get a doctorate because the terminal degree in medicine is an md/do.
( I would argue that the terminal degree in nursing is the phd for nursing professors, not the dnp as np's practice medicine, not nursing).

 

[Bandit]

my last year as a PA I earned 140k, in 9 years I never made less than 113

I personally know several PAs in sweet spots earning near 200 but that is extremely rare

 

[deleted6669]

my last year as a PA I earned 140k, in 9 years I never made less than 113
I personally know several PAs in sweet spots earning near 200 but that is extremely rare

my experience is similar. I don't know any em pa's making less than 110k. I know a bunch( > 20) who make 125-160k. I know one who makes 200k.
if I worked full time at the per diem job of mine which pays the most without ever working a second of overtime I would make 156k/yr plus full benefits and 12 weeks/yr of vacation and 1 week of cme( I've worked there for 13 yrs so am at the top of the union scale for pay and vacation). I don't like that job enough to work there full time anymore so I make a bit less by working elsewhere but enjoy my work and scope of practice more.

 

[medium rare]

Psych NPs in my area start at ~$130k annually with full benefits - in community mental health centers. Private practice varies depending on how much you want to work.

 

[prairiedog]

also not a midlevel. optometrists have a terminal doctorate, the only degree available in the field ( O.D., The terminal degree in optometry).
podiatrists also are not midlevels.
"midlevel"= pa, np, crna, aa, cnm(midwife) and in some settings cns(clinical nurse specialist). these folks are still midlevels if they get a doctorate because the terminal degree in medicine is an md/do.
( I would argue that the terminal degree in nursing is the phd for nursing professors, not the dnp as np's practice medicine, not nursing).

I am confused, dont optometrists practice medicine. Even more confusing what PA practices in the middle? Do PAs only do things 1/2 way, is their education only at the midpoint of a MD? Is a PA inbetween an assistant and a MD.

 

[deleted6669]

I am confused, dont optometrists practice medicine. Even more confusing what PA practices in the middle? Do PAs only do things 1/2 way, is their education only at the midpoint of a MD? Is a PA inbetween an assistant and a MD.

I'm not a big fan of the term "midlevel" but as it currently is used it includes the groups I mentioned above. the prefered term is "advanced practice clinicians" or affiliated clinicians" but these are not in widespread use.
optometrists practice optometry, not medicine, like psychologists practice psychology, not psychiatry. is there some overlap, sure, but there are also large areas of proprietary training.

 

[Paseo Del Norte]

I'm not a big fan of the term "midlevel" but as it currently is used it includes the groups I mentioned above. the prefered term is "advanced practice clinicians" or affiliated clinicians" but these are not in widespread use.
optometrists practice optometry, not medicine, like psychologists practice psychology, not psychiatry. is there some overlap, sure, but there are also large areas of proprietary training.

Word. I worked with South African medics who had advanced education and filled a PA like role. They were called Clinical Associates. I always though this was much better terminology than "mid-level provider."

 

[JackADeli]

Seems interesting but unsure of future job market

I think that is a good concern. I think many focus on the issue of physician re-imbursement cuts. they often fail to realize a good portion of physician collections goes to employ staff to include nurse and mid-levels. to my understanding, speaking with physicians out of europe and latin-america, the NP & PA system does not exist in most of the countries. with decreased revenues, one can expect lay-offs and cuts in all levels of healthcare providers.

...Even more confusing what PA practices in the middle? Do PAs only do things 1/2 way, is their education only at the midpoint of a MD? Is a PA inbetween an assistant and a MD.

start here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=384359

Your question is interesting and provocative. Are they "in the middle"? I guess it is perspective. You can use the term/title "physician extender" if you like. In numerous states, PAs do not practice independent of a licensed physician. They are more independent and have more "practitioner" functions then say a "regular" nurse. But, they have less then a fully licensed physician. One could view them thus practicing in the middle. I am not sure that is where the title mid-level comes from though. Maybe it is based on levels of acuity.... for a minor issue you can be well provided for by an RN and more moderate issues a PA and at the highest acuity you may require a physician. But going back to my earlier statement, many function under the license of a supervising physician. Thus even at liability, a "mid-level" follow directions and supervision of a physician has less then the physician that retains the majority of responsibility & liability.

JAD

ps: I have always found the arguments over titles to be interesting. I remember a college some years ago in which the grad students that served as "TAs" complained about that title. They demanded the new title of "graduate student instructor" aka "GSIs". Their argument was that they were not "assisting" the professor rather they were teaching the students. Thier protest was NOT a minor issue either.

 

[zenman]

Psych NPs in my area start at ~$130k annually with full benefits - in community mental health centers. Private practice varies depending on how much you want to work.

What area of the country are you in? I've seen ads in South Louisiana for $130K at VA clinics. Money is not my #1 priority but in a year or so I'll be looking for a spot to settle in...with four seasons, mild winters, water, bike trails, etc..

 

[medium rare]

What area of the country are you in? I've seen ads in South Louisiana for $130K at VA clinics. Money is not my #1 priority but in a year or so I'll be looking for a spot to settle in...with four seasons, mild winters, water, bike trails, etc..

I'm in the Southwest. PM me if you'd like specifics.

 

[lawguil]

Anybody like assistant physician versus physician assistant.

The latter because of the order of the words suggests that you "assist" the MD. Everybody knows that isn't exactly what happens.

Assistant Pysician would keep the initials the same, wouldn't overly complicate the beurocratic processes of a name change that might have to take place with state practice acts and the like, and might more accurately describe what PA's do....Their like assistant physicians as compared to physicians assistant.

Hi, I'm John/Jane Doe, an Assistant Physician here at Eastern Medical Center.......

 

[greytmedic]

Anybody like assistant physician versus physician assistant.

The latter because of the order of the words suggests that you "assist" the MD. Everybody knows that isn't exactly what happens.

Assistant Pysician would keep the initials the same, wouldn't overly complicate the beurocratic processes of a name change that might have to take place with state practice acts and the like, and might more accurately describe what PA's do....Their like assistant physicians as compared to physicians assistant.

Hi, I'm John/Jane Doe, an Assistant Physician here at Eastern Medical Center.......

How about AssistanttothePhysician

 

[poresofkohn]

How about AssistanttothePhysician

>
How about not. Technically it's physician associate.

 

[wiiturtledove]

PAs make similar salaries compare to NPs.

US Bureau of Labor Stats 2008:
Physician Assistants $39.05 (median hourly) $39.24(mean hourly) $81,610(mean annual)

Why do the NP make more than the PA for the same specialty?????

 

[lov2xlr8]

Good debate over at PA forum. Personally, I like Physician Associate or maybe Medical Practitioner. Some like Assistant Physician, but good luck running that by the AMA .
http://www.physicianassistantforum....at-s-wrong-with-the-term-Medical-Practitioner