Hispanic/Latino Applicant Advantage?

[Lexdiamondz]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Please provide me honestly with proof or stats that at least 60 percent are moving back into their neighborhoods and practicing there.

Have you been in any low-income Black or Hispanic neighbourhoods?

And how exactly do you know the exact criteria on which they are dismissing other viable candidates? How many ADCOMs are you part of? It is not uncommon for even a trade company to be forced on a government job to HAVE to hire a variable number of people just because. What makes you so sure exactly that something similar isn't happening here again?

blah blah your insecurities. Like you said yourself, they set their own criteria on why they dismiss other candidates, and so if you don't fit what they're looking for don't blame URM's, who like I've already said, make up a statistically insignificant number of matriculants. If you didn't fit their criteria when there were 135 spots available, what makes you think you'll be what they're looking for with 150 spots up for grabs?

Also, why assume that the White or Asian kid who got rejected was rejected in favour of the URM? There are literally more White matriculants with <30 MCAT scores than the ENTIRE total number of URM matriculants combined, so even if they were passed up in favour of someone else (rather than rejected for being a socially awkward and overly-entitled douchebag) they lost their spot to someone with lower stats, it is far more likely they lost to a White person than anyone else.

Fun fact: Affirmative Action has actually benefited White women more than any other demographic in this country. Yet nobody looks at them and assumes they're incompetent or were accepted with lower grades.

So why aren't you crying about ORMs matriculating with low stats?

Exactly

 

[ZoakRoak]

You really think "ORM" is short for "over represented minority"?



Not everyone is racist. Just you.

Funny how Google autocompletes "liberals racist" with "why do liberals call everyone racist".

Must be an odd coincidence.

 

[MedPR]

Funny how Google autocompletes "liberals racist" with "why do liberals call everyone racist".

Must be an odd coincidence.

I'm only calling you racist. Funny how you can't seem to comprehend that.

 

[touchpause13]

Please provide me honestly with proof or stats that at least 60 percent are moving back into their neighborhoods and practicing there.

 

[compgirl]

I'm only calling you racist. Funny how you can't seem to comprehend that.

I'm sure you'll be assigning that term soon to me and anyone else who questions the fairness, effectiveness, or implementation of AA.

 

[MedPR]

I'm sure you'll be assigning that term soon to me and anyone else who questions the fairness, effectiveness, or implementation of AA.

Why?

Edit: You should be sure that I'll call you out on making a new account last month just to stir the pot on these types of issues. Here are your only two posts outside of this thread.

Any thoughts on the upcoming affirmative action decision? How far do you think the court should go (if at all) in restricting affirmative action?

Touchy much? 😕 I just thought it would be interesting to hear people's thoughts on the specific case and what effects it might have.

 

[compgirl]

Why?

Edit: You should be sure that I'll call you out on making a new account last month just to stir the pot on these types of issues. Here are your only two posts outside of this thread.

I didn't realize you were so into me.

You can't defend your false accusations of racism, so you attack me. Where I have I seen this before?

 

[MedPR]

I didn't realize you were so into me.

You can't defend your false accusations of racism, so you attack me. Where I have I seen this before?

I've already defended my accusation of racism.

You're complaining that URMs get in with low stats. Yet you aren't complaining that ORMs get in with low stats too. Complaining about minorities while letting non-minorities slide? That's pretty much the definition of racism.

 

[911 Turbo]

Only white people with brown hair and freckles should be allowed to go to medical school IMO.

 

[compgirl]

I've already defended my accusation of racism.

Who cares about the absolute numbers? URM's get in at a significantly higher rate, other things being approximately equal. An accusation and a basis for that accusation are not the same thing.

 

[Ashley1989]

Who cares about the absolute numbers? URM's get in at a significantly higher rate, other things being approximately equal. An accusation and a basis for that accusation are not the same thing.

The medical schools will choose who they want to round out their desired class.

Whooooooo caressssssssss

If you don't like it, go to a school that fits your needs instead of being resentful to the students they choose.

 

[MedPR]

Who cares about the absolute numbers? URM's get in at a significantly higher rate, other things being approximately equal. An accusation and a basis for that accusation are not the same thing.

There are also less URMs applying with higher stats. The reason why ORMs with lower stats get in at a lower rate compared to URMs with lower stats is because of the applicant pool. If the profession is to be ethnically diversified concessions have to be made.

 

[compgirl]

There are also less URMs applying with higher stats. The reason why ORMs with lower stats get in at a lower rate compared to URMs with lower stats is because of the applicant pool. If the profession is to be ethnically diversified concessions have to be made.

And this is where we disagree. Am I a racist now?

 

[MedPR]

And this is where we disagree. Am I a racist now?

So you think that GPA/MCAT scores are worth making the physician profession ethnically homogenous?

Edit: If you dig deep enough in my post history you will find that I used to feel the same way. I used to think that the top GPA/MCAT scores should get in regardless of race (thus we'd likely have an almost all white/asian physician population). Then I realized that GPA/MCAT mean nothing in terms of being qualified to be a physician, being a good physician, improving the profession, improving healthcare as a whole, or providing care to underserved populations.

Sure, diversifying the profession doesn't necessarily mean more underserved populations being cared for. But picking students based solely on GPA/MCAT doesn't either.

 

[compgirl]

The medical schools will choose who they want to round out their desired class.

Whooooooo caressssssssss

If you don't like it, go to a school that fits your needs instead of being resentful to the students they choose.

By "round out," you mean discriminate against those because of their skin color for no better reason than someone else's skin color? I love how you equate resentment of people with disagreement about policy.

 

[compgirl]

So you think that GPA/MCAT scores are worth making the physician profession ethnically homogenous?

Do you think skin color is worth tossing more qualified individuals' applications in the rejected pile?

 

[compgirl]

So you think that GPA/MCAT scores are worth making the physician profession ethnically homogenous?

Edit: If you dig deep enough in my post history you will find that I used to feel the same way. I used to think that the top GPA/MCAT scores should get in regardless of race (thus we'd likely have an almost all white/asian physician population). Then I realized that GPA/MCAT mean nothing in terms of being qualified to be a physician, being a good physician, improving the profession, improving healthcare as a whole, or providing care to underserved populations.

Sure, diversifying the profession doesn't necessarily mean more underserved populations being cared for. But picking students based solely on GPA/MCAT doesn't either.

How do they mean nothing? The MCAT is an indicator of problem solving and critical thinking, and GPA is an indicator of academic accomplishment. They are not perfect measurements, but they are indicators nonetheless.

 

[compgirl]

Wait, can we go back to this moment that proves you have no idea what you're talking about please

Please do a google search before you embarrass yourself any further. I feel sorry for you.

 

[Ashley1989]

By "round out," you mean discriminate against those because of their skin color for no better reason than someone else's skin color? I love how you equate resentment of people with disagreement about policy.

Omg, how many times do we all have to go over this in these forms. It is NOT only about skin color. For goodness sake, you make a mockery of this whole argument by simplifying it to that when you know that it's not accurate.

Well, whatever. To explain it again, it means the medical schools want a certain type of class and will choose who they want. It's like a lovely bouquet, you choose a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Why on earth would you want only daisies?

 

[MedPR]

Do you think skin color is worth tossing more qualified individuals' applications in the rejected pile?

I don't think a higher GPA/MCAT necessarily translates to a more qualified applicant.

I think adcoms have two main goals. First and foremost is to admit students who are perceived to have the necessary skills to complete medical school and go on to be excellent physicians. Second is to create a diverse (including ethnic diversity) classes so that every student can learn to work with people who are different from them.

If adcoms can accomplish both of those then why shouldn't they?

 

[MedPR]

How do they mean nothing? The MCAT is an indicator of problem solving and critical thinking, and GPA is an indicator of academic accomplishment. They are not perfect measurements, but they are indicators nonetheless.

You're right, that was a poor choice of words. I mean that GPA/MCAT alone do not indicate someone will be a good physician. They might indicate a student will do well academically, but that's only a part of the picture. So yeah, I agree with you on that point.

 

[compgirl]

I feel sorry for you, sweetheart

https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/urm/

Did you even read the page you posted? Notice how "URM" appears next to "underrepresented minority" and how it does not appear next to "underrepresented in medicine?"

I didn't even say that it couldn't stand for what you said, but you seem to think you are the only one who can possibly be correct.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

So you think that GPA/MCAT scores are worth making the physician profession ethnically homogenous?

Edit: If you dig deep enough in my post history you will find that I used to feel the same way. I used to think that the top GPA/MCAT scores should get in regardless of race (thus we'd likely have an almost all white/asian physician population). Then I realized that GPA/MCAT mean nothing in terms of being qualified to be a physician, being a good physician, improving the profession, improving healthcare as a whole, or providing care to underserved populations.

Sure, diversifying the profession doesn't necessarily mean more underserved populations being cared for. But picking students based solely on GPA/MCAT doesn't either.

couldnt have said it better

By "round out," you mean discriminate against those because of their skin color for no better reason than someone else's skin color? I love how you equate resentment of people with disagreement about policy.

If you're saying that AA is discrimination then how do you explain the fact that the majority of matriculants accepted with lower stats are White? If AA was truly a discriminatory policy against Whites, the distribution of GPA and MCAT scores among matriculants would reflect that, and there would be few to no White matriculants with lower scores and GPA's, yet that isnt the case. Furthermore, if AA is discriminatory against Whites, why are Whites still overwhelmingly the largest demographic among all matriculants?

Do you think skin color is worth tossing more qualified individuals' applications in the rejected pile?

Qualified according to what criteria though? academic excellence is only one aspect of what makes a doctor, there are many more things to consider.

You're right, that was a poor choice of words. I mean that GPA/MCAT alone do not indicate someone will be a good physician. They might indicate a student will do well academically, but that's only a part of the picture. So yeah, I agree with you on that point.

More or less

 

[MedPR]

And just to be clear, I think URMs are admitted with lower stats because they are given a lower threshold of automatic rejection. ADCOMs look at URM applications with lower stats because there are so few (relative to ORMs) that are in the 3.7/33 range. In looking at these lower stat applications, I think they find certain qualities that allow them to overlook the lower stats. I'm sure they would find these same qualities in a lot of the rejected ORMs, but (keeping the need for diversity in mind) they simply don't need to look at low stat ORM applications because there are so many high stat ones.


In short, if URMs applied with the same GPA/MCAT distribution as ORMs, the applicant/accepted differences would go away.

 

[compgirl]

Just because it doesn't discriminate on a massive scale doesn't mean it doesn't impact the admissions process. Of course it discriminates against whites and asians, just not enough to make the kind of changes you are suggesting.

 

[compgirl]

You're quoting an outdated definition by the AAMC.

Also, I'm not the one to feel sorry for honey, that's for damn sure. At least I'm not the one whose sole focus on SDN has been to troll the pre-allo forum and incite arguments about affirmative action and racial disparities.

Even when your own evidence is turned against you, you can't just admit you were wrong can you?

When in doubt, call someone a troll.

 

[911 Turbo]

Even when your own evidence is turned against you, you can't just admit you were wrong can you?

When in doubt, call someone a troll.

Why don't you post with your real account?

 

[compgirl]

Why don't you post with your real account?

Why don't you say something of substance?

 

[ZoakRoak]

While we are on this topic, are there any schools which have refused to support this?

 

[MedPR]

While we are on this topic, are there any schools which have refused to support this?

No, because level headed adults recognize the upside to diversity.

 

[Ashley1989]

Why don't you post with your real account?

That's not her real account? :-0

 

[ZoakRoak]

No, because level headed adults recognize the upside to diversity.

As opposed to adults who again, diversify for the sake of diversity. You might want to read how Europe is dealing so well with their diversity. However, it's alright. They are diversifying.

 

[compgirl]

While we are on this topic, are there any schools which have refused to support this?

I'm pretty sure the CA and MI public schools are prohibited by law from using it. The number might increase dramatically though when the Supreme Court rules on it.

 

[MedPR]

As opposed to adults who again, diversify for the sake of diversity. You might want to read how Europe is dealing so well with their diversity. However, it's alright. They are diversifying.

Earlier you called me out for asking an irrelevant question. So, how is Europe relevant to US medical school adcoms attempting to diversify the physician population?

 

[compgirl]

First line of that page: UnderRepresented in Medicine.

Also, before 2003 the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority," meaning that the term is outdated, like I said.

The reason URM applicants are desirable as physicians is because they are less represented in medicine (due to social factors, history lessons you probably haven't read) and therefore needed to fulfill a need for the general population, which is becoming increasingly more diverse.

The term ORM doesn't make sense unless you use "over-represented in medicine," which is exactly what it sounds like so I won't explain it.

I notice you added the bold type yourself. Wonder why the AAMC didn't. You're a stubborn one, aren't you? Like I said, google it. All the results are wrong?

 

[La Presse]

The hate in this thread is astounding. Guys, really?

 

[compgirl]

AWW well CRAP, then how did this girl with a "subpar" MCAT score get a secondary and interview invite at every California school she applied to?!

Umm...good for you? How is your personal anecdote relevant?

 

[ZoakRoak]

Earlier you called me out for asking an irrelevant question. So, how is Europe relevant to US medical school adcoms attempting to diversify the physician population?

Earlier, I asked for a list of schools which don't support such a policy. You then felt it necessary to provide further commentary. Europe isn't at all to US medical ADCOMs. You provided a statement saying how wonderful diversity is, I have provided you a glaring example where it is not.

 

[compgirl]

I think you read about the first three words out of every post made here that's not your own and then ignore the rest.

I think you ignore others' points of view and cannot admit when you're wrong.

 

[MedPR]

Earlier, I asked for a list of schools which don't support such a policy. You then felt it necessary to provide further commentary. Europe isn't at all to US medical ADCOMs. You provided a statement saying how wonderful diversity is, I have provided you a glaring example where it is not.

I provided a satement saying there are upsides to diversity. I did not say all attempts to diversify have positive results. You provided an unrelated example with completely different parameters to try and negate what I said.

 

[compgirl]

You know what, we're both wrong. Clearly URM has been used in both ways. I think the use of "underrepresented in medicine" is more current and accurate, considering that we use "ORM" as a term and that wouldn't make sense with the word minority, but many websites use URM to mean underrepresented minority.

There, you see? I can admit that there's another side to the coin. 👍

😎

 

[Iampanic]

I just want to add my two cents to this thread.

According to AMCAS Table 25. There were 11696 accepted to medical school last year with a MCAT score of 27-29 that many here considered sub-par for many here in SDN. 10406 of those were ORM and 1290 were latinos.

Approximately 200 of the 1290 went to the Puerto Rico Medical Schools which most URM are not applying anyways. The acceptance of latinos in continental USA was 1090/2018 = 54 %.
The Acceptance of White applicants in this group was 42 %. The 42 % of the 2018 latino applicants is about 850. So you may say that in this group of 11696 accepted to Medical school, latinos had an advantage of about 240 more acceptances compared to white applicants.

I don't see this as a big of an advantage, the way I see it is that there are also a lot of opportunities for ORM to get into medical school with this MCAT score. You have to stop fussing about these 240 seats and try to compete with the 10406 white applicants that were accepted with this MCAT.

 

[BlueCircle]

Before reading this thread I was still on the fence about the supposed URM advantage, and reading through the responses I must say that I think I've made up my mind.

URM should not be viewed as an advantage, but rather medical schools addressing the needs of minorities in the United States. SDN really needs to grow up regarding this issue.

I never thought about it this way, but it makes sense. 👍

what I find hilarious is that people love to attack affirmative action because of the perceived advantages that URM's get over Whites and Asians, when in all likelihood as many, if not more people get into medical school via other means of preferential treatment such as being a legacy or having connections within the admissions office. The truth is, the real world never has been strictly a meritocracy and likely never will be, who you know has always mattered more than what you know, and yet people want to throw hissy fits over the 15% of spots occupied by URM's (who may or may not actually have low stats) and overlook the fact that MANY of the other spots up for grabs are already occupied with people who have privileged connections you don't have but don't necessarily offer anything outstanding to the medical community or society at large.

It's easy to target URM's because we literally wear our ancestry on our skin, but in reality you're more likely to lose a spot to a White person with lower numbers than a Black person with lower numbers. Furthermore, your performance in undergrad doesn't have all that much to do with whether or not you're gonna make a good physician anyway, and numbers are only one part of the equation. Some of you really need to grow up, take your heads out of your asses and see the world for what it really is.

Think about it...if grades mattered SO much, why is basically every medical school pass-fail?

👍👍👍 One of the best posts I've seen in the entire thread.

You're complaining that URMs get in with low stats. Yet you aren't complaining that ORMs get in with low stats too. Complaining about minorities while letting non-minorities slide? That's pretty much the definition of racism.

Good point, just by the sheer number of white and asian applicants. there are more ORM's that get in with lower stats then non URMs, yet no one complains about low stat ORMs.

Lol, I understand what a correlation is, but thanks for the review. Whether you think that's a strong correlation seems to be dependent upon opinion - I read the abstracts of a few studies that found similar results to the one you posted. Most seemed to very weakly support that the MCAT has some value in predicting medical school performance, but some said that these poor correlations are indicative of a need for better measures while others (notably, the AAMC) say the MCAT is a great predictor of medical school performance (gee, I wonder why they would make that argument).

Just look at the AAMC's own data. There is almost no difference in first-time step 1 pass rates or graduation rates among students that score 27-29, 30-32, 33-35, 36-38, and 39-45 (https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf). Ultimately those are the things that matter, and while you do see a very slight trend upward in both of those variables as MCAT score increases, it is almost negligible.

Also, that paper you posted was cute but somewhat silly (hell, the author admits in the first sentence that that work isn't a lit review). You mean to tell me that objective data is better at predicting things than subjective data?!?!?! You don't say! That guy also claims "strong predictive validity" by citing the exact same study you mentioned. You don't get bonus points for dredging up sources supporting a claim without actually providing any data to further validate it.

This is getting off topic. My entire point was that, at best, the MCAT is a very mediocre predictor of medical school performance. In reality I think it has almost zero predictive capacity. This whole line of discussion came up because someone made a claim that URM stats, by virtue of being lower than the average, implies URMs are clearly not qualified to be in medical school. The data you cited pretty much demonstrates that - AT BEST the MCAT can account for ~16% of a student's future pre-clinical performance and ~36% of a student's step 1 performance. AT BEST, undergrad GPA has similar predictive ability.

And people are seriously going to argue that groups of students admitted to medical school by a group of professionals that do admissions for a living are ill-prepared and undeserving of being in medical school because of their GPA and MCAT scores - which, AT BEST, say very little about a student's future performance? Give me a break.

👍👍👍

 

[as1212559]

Dey took our jaerbs!

👍

 

[touchpause13]

Thanks for actually reading the posts and being mature about it! I wish more threads would end this way 🙂

👍

 

[The Buff OP]

No!! URMs should not be allowed into medical school. Only successful white applicants can complete the rigorous medical education, jump through the hurdles of residency and fellowships, with the final goal of joining the well-oiled machine that is our healthcare system. Gawd, when will these threads stahp!!??

Woah! What is your problem with minorities?

 

[BlueCircle]

lol

I have been wanting to submit my dad's as a Xmas present but they charge ~200 (national geographic). I wonder how long it will take for it to go down to 100...

The company 23 and me test many more snps then National Geographic for only 100 bucks. You should definitely consider doing it, I did for myself and two family members and the data is invaluable

 

[Mr Interesting]

The company 23 and me test many more snps then National Geographic for only 100 bucks. You should definitely consider doing it, I did for myself and two family members and the data is invaluable

You bumped this awful thread just to say that?

 

[BlueCircle]

You bumped this awful thread just to say that?

Yessir.